[3.P] At what levels does DMing get too hard?

[Endarire]

I've played many 3.P games (that is 3.x and Pathfinder). If I don't DM the game, the game usually ends in 6 seconds. For longer-lasting games including games I've DMed, we typically stop before level 6.

Twice, I've gotten to play a level 10 character when I wasn't DM.

I also noticed that around level 10 (even level 7), most DMs don't "get it." They don't realize just how much things have changed since level 1. If the main reason the party (or a certain party member) hasn't conquered the world is because of holding themselves back, something's amiss.

We've discussed things and realized that tiers strongly come into play around level 7. Then, even Core Wizards can Evard's black tentacles + solid fog, dimension door away, then come back and animate dead. (It may require items, but it's possible for a core Wizard7 to do this all in one day.)

The scale of things changes. No longer is it just "one dungeon" or "one city" or "one kingdom" that concerns parties. Now, it's nations with the possibility of planes. (Hey, Clerics get plane shift at 9 and Artificers can make plane shift items at 7!)

What are your thoughts?

[sonofzeal]

It's a sliding scale, somewhere between 7 and 12 depending on the DM and the players. And you can eventually learn how to handle higher games, too.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm not sure it becomes "too hard" until the game truly breaks at higher levels. The game simply changes at the mid levels; you have to "get it," like you said, but if you do get it it's fine (with some party balance quibbles).

[Eldariel]

Never, of course. Well, maybe in the Epic but even then it's just instating a dozen house rules to keep the game somewhat in check (of course, at that point the players will be able to start trying to conquer places). That's the whole point of system mastery; to be able to DM appropriately for the party level regardless of it.

Of course, low levels is more intuitive since that's where most of the books and classical fantasy happens. Everybody knows how to DM the "This is a dungeon that's full of EEEEVIL monsters and treasure. Go kill the EEEEEEVIL monsters and restore the treasure in the hands of civilization [your own]", and everyone knows how to give players a destination and make the journey the point of the game. This is, again, what most classical fantasy is about; the journey. LotR isn't about dropping the Ring to Mount Doom, after all, but the journey of first the hobbits and then the Fellowship. Higher up, magic more or less negates the journey so the adventure needs to revolve around locations (given magical warding against magical travel in key locations is both, possible and pretty necessary for any place you want to keep relevant people out of, it's a trivially true assumption that the locations themselves cannot be negated by travel magic, only the journey to the location creating the game) rather than the journey; completely trivial aspect to understand once you know about it but one never explained anywhere.

[WinWin]

Highest level character I have played? 8. Druid.

I have run quite a few high level games. Many have collapsed for various reasons, often more to do with player disputes than any problem with the rules*.

Average departure from a campaign was around level 7. Ran a campaign to level 24 (from level 1). That took the best part of 4 years, as the campaign progressed I would have to take a break frequently due to the pressure of organising that level of play. So that main campaign ran along other games, or occassionally I would get to play (D&D, WoD, SR mainly).

I would not do it again. It's exhausting. Currently using emotional blackmail to get my former players to run games for me. Ungrateful bastards.


*There are plenty of problems with the rules. However, typically a gentlemans agreement was in place to avoid any deliberate exploitation or asshattery.

[Squeejee]

I ran an epic game. Once. We had a pretty good time, but scaling higher than 10th level is never something I'm eager to do as a DM - mostly because I'm grossly unfamiliar with the options available to players and monsters at that level - but I typically find that the players will give you a cue or two if they feel the game isn't quite up to their abilities.

In the epic game, it wound up with the players being recruited by the Gods for a war that would signal Armageddon for Faerun, and we all agreed that it was about what everyone expected to be doing post 20th level. If I had them in a dungeon, for example, they might have given me a sign that they were expecting more.

I think most of the problems of post level 10 play arise from the increasing gulf of power between classes. I ran a very underoptimized wizard in a level twelve game with a rogue, a fighter, and a ranger, and I was having no trouble at any point blowing the rest of them out of the water, despite the Rogue's 1d2+10d6+30 always-hitting-shuriken build of awesome.

Back to the point, yeah I'd say level 10 for me is where I start to lose it as a GM, but I've found that an adequate amount of BS can overcome any situation!

[PairO'Dice Lost]

I personally can handle up to low epic without too much trouble (I ran one game where the BBEG was a not-quite-Tippyverse-scale cheesed-out 22nd-level conjurer named Mordenkainen. Yes, that Mordenkainen.) and have run exactly one high-epic game that I've sworn not to do again (the one where the BBEG was a conglomeration of 206 demiliches), but I've noticed that things start to get more difficult to handle between 10th and 15th depending on the power level of the weakest and strongest party members. If the party's weakest and strongest are an ubercharger and a GOD wizard, it starts to get more difficult at 10th because the wizard's capabilities start shooting up. If they're a sword-and-board fighter and a GOD wizard, it starts to get more difficult at 10th because the fighter doesn't have much to do. If they're an ubercharger and a well-built beguiler, it starts to get more difficult at 15th because the power level isn't too crazy and the gap isn't too wide.

[Ernir]

Meh. The numbers get higher, the options get more numerous, and the game generally mutates into something whole lot less wieldy, but too difficult? It's too difficult when you aren't having enough fun any more, or when your lack of system mastery breaks your back.

In some respects, high level DMing is easier, IMO. The chance of accidental TPKs gets lower, and the PCs get a lot more capable of creating their own plot than they were before.

This thread reminds me, though. I got to prepare, I have it on good authority that my 17th level Druid player is about to go shapechange-zilla on the drow capitol. :smallbiggrin:

[Dralnu]

I've DM'd for about 3 years now. The vast majority of my games are around level 3-5, but I've also run half of Red Hand of Doom and Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, which is the 6-8 range. Anywhere within the the 1-8 range is easily manageable by me. The highest level campaign that I ever attempted running was Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, I think that starts at level 11. We only ran one session of that because nobody had a clue how to play their characters and the spellcasters were slowing combat to a crawl by casting a spell and then having to look up what the heck it even does.

I personally wouldn't start a game higher than level 6 again. The main reason isn't because it's "too hard" for me, because thankfully the majority of my players aren't readers of these forums, but because the lower level we start, the more likely the PCs didn't do anything wrong when building their characters and they have less abilities that they must familiarize themselves with.

I wouldn't mind running an epic level group. Just as long as I started with them at a low level. That way I have total control over their loot, everyone knows their abilities inside and out because they earned each one at a time, and most importantly I know all their abilities because I've watched them acquire them at a reasonable pace. But starting a campaign in epic? That nightmare rarely even passes character creation.

[Pyro_Azer]

One time I started a campaign at level 25 which ended (ultimately) at level 36. It was an absolute blast that everyone enjoyed. But the amount of work this takes is staggering. Generally I like to end around 20 and do not think the game is impossible to run, or increases exponentially in difficulty before that.

[Glimbur]

Depends on the PC's. Sometimes I find it hard to DM for really low level characters because I over-estimate what they can do.

I haven't run for PC's past about level 10... but we had already transitioned from site-based adventures to opponent-based adventuring (which still had sites and such, but the focus was particular enemies).

[navar100]

It depends on the skill, taste, and desire of the DM. Character level is irrelevant.

[Thurbane]

It's highly variable, of course, but I will say that my own experience as a DM and that of my group is that higher levels, the game becomes increaingly painful to run, and the combat slows even further - the plethora of options, defenses, buffs and similar that the PCs (and monsters) have at high(ish) levels just become a pain to track.

I think this is the primary reason that many people enjoy E6. We're seriously considering it for our next long term campaign.

[Grommen]

I think a lot of this depends on your players too. Good players will work with the DM to make a game even better. Wile a lot of players take it as a Me VS. the DM approach. After say 10th level we know you can kick some serious butt. The question is when and where, and how well you treat everyone else.

I've run up to 25th level. And that one ended badly. The higher you get, the more prep you have to do though. Somewhere around 15th level for me it just gets to be a pain in the behind. I look back at all the work I did compared at the time spent playing the game, and quite a lot I think it was not worth it. Then their are nights when all that work pays off. Perhaps a good fight that comes down to the last HP, or some excellent role playing, and a creative way to solve a problem.

I would say 8th to 15th is my favorite sweet spot. At least in my campaigns the spellcasters are finally (and yes I'm not kidding) catching up to the melee types. The rogues are sneaky, and the fighters are swirling blades of death. It really falls apart after that. I mean they can cast Wish. It takes a very special melee character, and some support from his casters after that.

[JonestheSpy]

In my experience, what the game becomes at higher levels is slow. Vastly more bookkeeping to deal with, but otherwise not much different.



I also noticed that around level 10 (even level 7), most DMs don't "get it." They don't realize just how much things have changed since level 1. If the main reason the party (or a certain party member) hasn't conquered the world is because of holding themselves back, something's amiss.

We've discussed things and realized that tiers strongly come into play around level 7. Then, even Core Wizards can Evard's black tentacles + solid fog, dimension door away, then come back and animate dead. (It may require items, but it's possible for a core Wizard7 to do this all in one day.)

The scale of things changes. No longer is it just "one dungeon" or "one city" or "one kingdom" that concerns parties. Now, it's nations with the possibility of planes. (Hey, Clerics get plane shift at 9 and Artificers can make plane shift items at 7!)


This all seems to presuppose a DM who is incapable of creating challenges that match the party's abilities. NPC's can cast all the same spells, you know, and any party that Plane Shifts elsewhere just to kick butt is begging to have their asses handed to them, imho.

[MeeposFire]

It does get harder as you level but it never gets too hard to do. It may become not fun for everybody though and it may be way more work than you want to put into running a game (which is how I feel. I have told my group I will no longer DM 3.5 though I will play. Unsurprisingly we have not had any steady 3.5 games since and have moved on to 4e since that game is MUCH easier to DM that even the other people are willing to do it and succeed).

[Savannah]

I think it really depends on the DM's experience level. I, for example, am quite comfortable DMing levels 1-5, not as comfortable but still willing to DM levels 6-8, and not willing to DM over level 8. However, this is because that's what my experience playing and DMing has centered around. As the PCs I DM for increase in level and I experience the sorts of things they can do, the levels I'm willing to DM games at will increase.

[ffone]

You know what I'd like? Constructive advice on how to make high level DMing urn more smoothly, if it's all as bad and broken as I've hearing here.

A few things from my own experience:

- Use die rollers or allow taking average damage (but never take 10 on attack rolls), esp. if you have big fistful of d6s from sneak attack or spells.

- Avoid pivoting everything around one MacGuffin and/or BBEG....there are just too many ways to nuke (or worse, enchant) a single creature. The villainy or quest should revolve around a number of enemies, tasks, etc.

-Encounters that begin with a diverse and spatially spread out band of enemies, and may include terrain obstacles (possibly some enemies are out of line of sight / effect on round 1, and will appear to come in 'waves'), are less likely to be rocket tag-y or end in 1 round.

-Major enemies may be a bit more defensively oriented and have reasonable-in-character counters to certain types of ubernesss (Mind Blank, a charge blocker, etc. - of course, you don't want the Enchantment-themed PC to be constantly hosed).

-Major enemies have divination and/or mundane information networks so that in-character they can learn about the PCs' tactics. This encourages PCs to mix it up, without resorting to DM-metagaming....and may add an interesting strategic angle (of how to avoid being 'learned about').

-Important locations / major enemies may liberally use ward-type spells to protect areas from immediate divination, teleportation-into, etc. - a series of Unhallows with Dimensional Anchor as their piggyback spell, Private Sanctum, etc. (But don't keep scrying/teleport etc. from ever being useful.)

[Tyndmyr]

I've played many 3.P games (that is 3.x and Pathfinder). If I don't DM the game, the game usually ends in 6 seconds. For longer-lasting games including games I've DMed, we typically stop before level 6.

Twice, I've gotten to play a level 10 character when I wasn't DM.

Yeah, this about matches my experiences. The general game starts at level 1, and somewhere around the midlevel, the game peters out. People don't adapt to match the changing game.


I also noticed that around level 10 (even level 7), most DMs don't "get it." They don't realize just how much things have changed since level 1. If the main reason the party (or a certain party member) hasn't conquered the world is because of holding themselves back, something's amiss.

We've discussed things and realized that tiers strongly come into play around level 7. Then, even Core Wizards can Evard's black tentacles + solid fog, dimension door away, then come back and animate dead. (It may require items, but it's possible for a core Wizard7 to do this all in one day.)

The scale of things changes. No longer is it just "one dungeon" or "one city" or "one kingdom" that concerns parties. Now, it's nations with the possibility of planes. (Hey, Clerics get plane shift at 9 and Artificers can make plane shift items at 7!)

What are your thoughts?

It isn't even that...it's the easy availability of magic items, minions for hire, etc. The encounter that was challenging at level three was dead easy to put together. At level ten, much less so....even if nobody is particularly trying to do anything besides get better at their role.

[navar100]

You know what I'd like? Constructive advice on how to make high level DMing urn more smoothly, if it's all as bad and broken as I've hearing here.

A few things from my own experience:

- Use die rollers or allow taking average damage (but never take 10 on attack rolls), esp. if you have big fistful of d6s from sneak attack or spells.

- Avoid pivoting everything around one MacGuffin and/or BBEG....there are just too many ways to nuke (or worse, enchant) a single creature. The villainy or quest should revolve around a number of enemies, tasks, etc.

-Encounters that begin with a diverse and spatially spread out band of enemies, and may include terrain obstacles (possibly some enemies are out of line of sight / effect on round 1, and will appear to come in 'waves'), are less likely to be rocket tag-y or end in 1 round.

-Major enemies may be a bit more defensively oriented and have reasonable-in-character counters to certain types of ubernesss (Mind Blank, a charge blocker, etc. - of course, you don't want the Enchantment-themed PC to be constantly hosed).

-Major enemies have divination and/or mundane information networks so that in-character they can learn about the PCs' tactics. This encourages PCs to mix it up, without resorting to DM-metagaming....and may add an interesting strategic angle (of how to avoid being 'learned about').

-Important locations / major enemies may liberally use ward-type spells to protect areas from immediate divination, teleportation-into, etc. - a series of Unhallows with Dimensional Anchor as their piggyback spell, Private Sanctum, etc. (But don't keep scrying/teleport etc. from ever being useful.)

Have players keep notes on combat effects. When a buff comes into play, have players jot down the effect on scrap paper. They can either write "+4 to all saves" or mentally add 4 to their saves and write their final total "+16, +10, +18". They should be doing this since level 1 anyway. It's very important to remember the +1 from Bless.

Spells should be necessary. Teleport Without Error is needed just to get where the adventure is taking place, because if the wzard doesn't cast it the Ritual Of Great Evil/Opening of the Portal of Horror would happen already by the time the party reaches the place by more mundane routes. The cleric has to cast Commune just to learn/verify information needed to solve the dilemma. Greater Planar Ally/Gate is needed for some extra help precisely because the BBEG and his horde are really that bad@ssery. The wizard casts Greater Scrying just to learn what the BBEG even looks like. Disjunction is needed just to bring down the permanent Prismatic Walls surrounding the Dungeon Of Doom.

[Kefkafreak]

In our games, we typically start at level 3 and end at the early epic levels (23-26).

It's just a matter of getting used to it. At level 3 climbing up a cliff might be hard for the players, but you can't expect mundane things like that to challenge them at mid levels.

Using our last campaign as an example, at level 13 the players had to turn the tide of a massive battle between the armies of two countries, eventually defeating the queen (a powerful Cleric) and her Hexblade daughter. By level 16 they were already plane-hopping regularly, and at 23 they actually entered the Nine Hells and defeated the Lord of the first layer, along with 5 Great Wyrm Dragons (all at the same time), and that wasn't even the final boss.

You need to know your group well and design the challenges in a way that will challenge them in interesting ways. Most of my dungeons have limitations for the players (no teleporting of any kind inside of the dungeon, an enormous antimagic field, or whatever) and the players need to overcome that to conquer the dungeon.

[potatocubed]

For me, it's about level 6 or 7. I've kept a couple of games rolling up to level 15 before, but left to my own devices level 7 is where I stop.

The main reason for this is because level 6-7 is about where it takes me longer to prep for a session than it does to play it, and that coincides pretty neatly with me totally losing interest.

[Yora]

My thought on this: E6.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Depends on the PC's. Sometimes I find it hard to DM for really low level characters because I over-estimate what they can do.

I haven't run for PC's past about level 10... but we had already transitioned from site-based adventures to opponent-based adventuring (which still had sites and such, but the focus was particular enemies).

I worked alongside Glimbur as a co-DM once in the past, and this works rather well. It can lead to an issue where, eventually, if the game goes on long enough opponent-based adventures can turn into "Okay, you just killed the most evil threat in the land. Oh, look, a new BBEG just showed up." Obviously, with some planning, one could avoid that, but some players may still get that feeling out of it.


As to the actual question, I'd say DMing becomes too hard when the players' system mastery out-classes the DMs. Sure, there are a lot of times when a player will do something that shocks me and causes me to herp or derp for one reason or another, but, for the most part, I know I can find or make some enemy to still give them a challenge.

[jguy]

Our game seems to stop at level 17 when the casters get their 9th level spells. DM can handle it before then but 9th level spells are just "I win" buttons

[Telonius]

My group is edging up on level 16 and 17 now in a Shackled City campaign, and things are definitely getting a bit trickier. Some houserules are in place to rein in the Big Three; here's the party composition.

Half-Orc Bard/Sublime Chord (houserule no CHA penalty)
Halfling Druid (Shapeshift variant), Dire Frog (use Dire Toad stats) companion, half-drow (3.0) Bard/Monk/Druid/Fochlucan Lyrist cohort
Dwarf Rogue/Artificer/Paladin (plays most like a Paladin)
Human VoP Monk/Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist with Cleric cohort
Warforged Warblade

Up to now, I've generally gotten away with rebuilding bad guys, adding extra mooks, and sprinkling in a few extras like dead magic zones, places you can't teleport (thanks to Unhallow/Dimension Lock), and the like. The last couple levels in particular have been great for keeping things challenging - just take the basic encounter, add a few extra foes, ignore the listed CR, and you're good.

But now they're starting to get immune to a lot more things, access to more and better spells, and (probably most importantly) the two least experienced players - the Druid and the Warblade - are getting a handle on what their characters can really do. The Bard just got his first 8th-level spell.

The rule system has held together a lot longer than I thought it would; I like to think my houserules have done a lot to help there. But it's already making some awfully funny noises. I give it one more level before the whole thing starts throwing sprockets and belching out blue smoke.

Ah well, only two chapters left in the adventure path, and then I get to take a bit of a DM-break. :smallcool:

[McSmack]

My thought on this: E6.

Yeah I'm liking everything I've read about E6. Though I think I'm going to mix up gestalt and E6 for my next game.

I like DM'ing but I have a busy life, and I don't have the time or the energy to put in all the extra work that comes with making a high level campaign. The highest level I'm DM'd is about level 14 (I went up to 16 once, but hated it.), so I build my campaigns to stop around level 12 or so.

It's not that it's not fun, it's just cost/benefit. I can make a campaign that's just as enjoyable with half the effort if I stick to levels 10 and below. So, I don't really have an incentive to go to the higher levels.

[Jeebers]

Be honest with you, it's not the game system that's the problem with having a long term campaign, it's the players themselves. I've had ONE campaign that managed to reach level 10, and it disintegrated because the players kept arguing amongst themselves.

Most players, I've noticed, are in their early 20's if that, and thus still have problems learning how to work together, or even being dependable enough to show up every game session. Do you have ANY idea just how hard it was to get the concept of calling me 24 hours in advance if they were going to cancel? Eventually I explained that anybody who shows up depends on the rest coming so that we have a large enough party to play. Too small and they get creamed.

[Patricles]

Most players, I've noticed, are in their early 20's if that, and thus still have problems learning how to work together, or even being dependable enough to show up every game session. Do you have ANY idea just how hard it was to get the concept of calling me 24 hours in advance if they were going to cancel? Eventually I explained that anybody who shows up depends on the rest coming so that we have a large enough party to play. Too small and they get creamed.

thats why i always have side adventures going in case people (really just one person...) drop last minute.

also, my campaign right now only has 2 pcs (unfortunately). makes things easy to plan though.

[ffone]

I worked alongside Glimbur as a co-DM once in the past, and this works rather well. It can lead to an issue where, eventually, if the game goes on long enough opponent-based adventures can turn into "Okay, you just killed the most evil threat in the land. Oh, look, a new BBEG just showed up." Obviously, with some planning, one could avoid that, but some players may still get that feeling out of it.
.

Many groups do in-character time passage ("X months passed peacefully..") which dovetails with the PHB (or was it DMG) suggested 'downtime' to help justify training and future level-ups, any item crafting PCs may want to do, and the verisimilitude of liquidating their loot (they didnt' find an overnight MagicMart to buy all the last villains' gear and sell them exactly what they wanted; rather, they spent months scouring the shops and hire-wizards of Waterdeep).

[That_guy_there]

For Me, i've found DMing gets "too hard" at Epic Levels.

I'm good at low to mid 20s where i can entice PCs into playing "smarter" and getting involved with intrige and politicial events. But I have found that as my group nears level 30, they revert to a mid level mind set. Particularly they expect to be lauded as heroes (and in one case a living god) everywhere they go. They simply expect pwople to surrender to them and defer to them. The rules and trappings of civilization that PCs tend to push against at level 15 are completely ignored at level 25+.

Thats the difficulty (for me) at epic levels. Sure i can make something to whoop them... but thats no longer fun for me the DM.