[Help] Help me create epic spells!

[mustaju]

An ongoing epic level game where our party averages level 26 has made our opponents frustratingly hard to kill, which comes with epic characters, I guess.

I started out as a Wizard disabler, but the ease at which the enemy passes the DCs of most spells has shifted me majorly towards just blasting the enemy with meteor swarms and polar rays. I've heard Epic spellcasting could expand my arsenal considerably, but it just seems inefficient from the epic spellcasting table I've seen. Maybe the nice people at GitP can help me by proving me wrong and giving some example spells that give epic spellcasting the imba reputation it has?

I have 29 ranks in spellcraft, an Int of +13, with a few items and synergy boosting the score to +51, and 453 000 gp.
In addition, I have these feats: Skill focus: Spellcraft, Greater Spellfocus: Transmutation, Spell focus: Necromancy, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Greater Spell penetration, and Archmage abilities such as Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell Power and Arcane Reach.
Hope that helps, I can obviously add more information if needed. :S

Thanks in advance for any help.

[blazingshadow]

question 1: do you have access to the spell Gate?
question 2: what kind of spell are you interested/looking for?
question 3: how much in-game downtime you have to create such a spell?

the easiest way to power epic spells is by chain gating solars and other spellcasters

[Jack_Simth]

the easiest way to power epic spells is by chain gating solars and other spellcasters
I'm much more fond of Permanent Spellcasting Summons, myself.

Really, though epic spellcasting is broken - in the "doesn't really work as intended" sense. To do anything worthwhile, you need some fairly massive spellcraft DC's... which either take FOREVER to research (and are ridiculously expensive (even for Epic!)), or they require a massive amount of mitigation... the problem being that once you start mitigating, there's no clear place or reason to stop, and you end up with VERY long-duration buffs that make you essentially indestructible.

[Urpriest]

question 1: do you have access to the spell Gate?
question 2: what kind of spell are you interested/looking for?
question 3: how much in-game downtime you have to create such a spell?

the easiest way to power epic spells is by chain gating solars and other spellcasters

No it isn't. This is a misinterpretation. The process resembles chain gating, but that's not how you do it.

Here's essentially the idea: you make a spell with DC 0 that summons something with spell slots permanently. Couatls are a good choice. You can mitigate it down that far with a long casting time generally. Then use the Couatl's spell slots for mitigation of a new spell that summons more Couatls. Eventually you upgrade to Solars for higher level slots. Each one you summon makes your next summoning call more of them for DC 0, so the process is exponential. Eventually you have a massive stable of spellcasting monsters that can mitigate anything you want to cast. Then you cast a Permanent buff spell that gives you a +NAN to Spellcraft. Now you can use pretty much any epic magic you want.

[Aharon]

Do you have access to a fast-time plane (100 days on this plane should equal one round on the reference timescale you usually adventure on), and does your character have some form of immortality/longevity (for example Elan, Warforged, etc.)?

If so, a non-infinite, but rather strong way to use epic magic would be developing a Int-Buffing Spell to up your DCs:

(Copied from Kaelik on TGDMB, slightly adjusted numbers)

1) Take a Seed, or multiple Seeds.
2) Apply all the factors, increasing the base DC.
3) Apply all reductions.
4) Research spell.
5) Roll spellcraft check. You succeed, you cast the spell, you fail, your slot it used up.

To make a spell that provides a permanent bonus to intelligence, you take the Fortify Seed:

That's DC 17 for a +1 enhancement bonus of 20 hours. So you increase the bonus by 202 to get a +102 bonus to Int.

Then you mitigate it by 20 by adding 10 minutes to the casting time, then mitigate an additional 200 by increasing the casting time by 100 days.

You now have a DC of 0, so it takes 0 days, 0 XP, and 0 gold to research the spell, then you cast it.



Of course, direct damage isn't too bad, you could also look into the use of more efficient metamagic to improve on that.

[Tvtyrant]

Living Lightning, then scale up the damage while lowering the DC by the same amount by increasing time. It can easily get you 80d6 damage several times a day and keeps your epic spell slots from falling fallow each day. Then switch the type to sound and make it a Living Scream spell.

[pegase]

I'm much more fond of Permanent Spellcasting Summons, myself.

Really, though epic spellcasting is broken - in the "doesn't really work as intended" sense. To do anything worthwhile, you need some fairly massive spellcraft DC's... which either take FOREVER to research (and are ridiculously expensive (even for Epic!)), or they require a massive amount of mitigation... the problem being that once you start mitigating, there's no clear place or reason to stop, and you end up with VERY long-duration buffs that make you essentially indestructible.

I don't mean this in a "I don't believe you" way, but can I see a concrete example of this?

[Jack_Simth]

No it isn't. This is a misinterpretation. The process resembles chain gating, but that's not how you do it. You very much can do it with chain gating. Has a lot shorter of a warm-up time that way, but you don't get the leftover army.
Then you cast a Permanent buff spell that gives you a +NAN to Spellcraft. Now you can use pretty much any epic magic you want.
That's not the usual application of Not A Number.... Wouldn't NI (Neigh-Infinite) fit better?


I don't mean this in a "I don't believe you" way, but can I see a concrete example of this?
Which aspect? The "almost indestructible", "massive mitigation" or "very high DC to do anything worthwhile"?

Some of these are simpler to demonstrate than others. For "not very good" just look at a few of the pre-made ones. Let's look at the first on the list: Animus Blast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/animusBlast.htm):
"When this spell is cast, enemies within range are dealt 10d6 points of cold damage. However, up to twenty of those victims that perish as a result of this blast are then instantly animated as Medium skeletons. These skeletons serve the character indefinitely. The character cannot exceed the normal limit for controlling undead through use of this spell, but other means that allow the character to exceed the normal limit for controlled undead work just as well with undead created with animus blast. "
DC 50, and it's essentially a Fell Animate Energy Substitution (Cold) Fireball. It costs 450,000 gp, 18,000 xp, and 9 days to research. So for almost half a million gp, most of a level's worth of xp (at your level, 26), an epic feat, and a bit of time, you save yourself two non-epic feats ... if you can make a DC 50 check every time in the middle of battle.

This is not worthwhile.

So the default stuff is useless... well, what kind of a spell can we use in battle? Let's make our own... let's see... we want to hurt the other guy, right? So let's use Energy. You're level 26, so if it does less than ... what, about 52d6? ... it's simply not worth a standard action. So let's make a spell at 52d6 energy damage. Base DC: 19: Gives us a 1-minute casting time, at 10d6 damage. Every +1d6 adds 2 to the spellcraft DC, so another 42 dice adds 84 to the spellcraft DC. We also need to get it down to a standard action casting time, which is +20 DC. That's a Spellcraft DC of 123, for a fairly simple spell. Incidentally, it also costs 1,107,000 gp, 44,280 xp, and 22 days to research. And to actually use it reliably, you need a spellcraft modifier of 122. By the time you can pay that without some form of cost mitigation (level 44, for the XP alone), it's quite worthless again, and it cost you a level.

[Urpriest]

You very much can do it with chain gating. Has a lot shorter of a warm-up time that way, but you don't get the leftover army.
That's not the usual application of Not A Number.... Wouldn't NI (Neigh-Infinite) fit better?

NAN is the sound of the DM complaining because you've overflowed his registers. Yes NI is more accurate.

[Jack_Simth]

NAN is the sound of the DM complaining because you've overflowed his registers. Yes NI is more accurate.That just means you need to upgrade your DM to deal with good floating point operations.

[pegase]

Which aspect? The "almost indestructible", "massive mitigation" or "very high DC to do anything worthwhile"?

I mean the "almost indestructible" part. I'd also be interested in the massive mitigation part if it includes not chain gating things.

Any buff with amazing duration that renders you almost invulnerable will end up having very high DC to do anything worthwhile, right?

[Urpriest]

This thread (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872858/The_Iron_Siege?pg=1) contains a few good examples, though they might be nontrivial to find.

[Jack_Simth]

I mean the "almost indestructible" part. I'd also be interested in the massive mitigation part if it includes not chain gating things.

Any buff with amazing duration that renders you almost invulnerable will end up having very high DC to do anything worthwhile, right?
Yes and yes. Massive mitigation mostly revolves around massive spellcasting summonings, or chain-gating. But being close to indestructible is a fairly simple application of Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/ward.htm).

First, we want to be immune to spells. So we go with Ward, which explicitly lets us be immune to spells:

"ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. "
As Epic spells count as tenth level, the first thing to be immune to is spells of tenth level or lower. 14 (base) + 9*20 (add 9 levels, for 10th) = 194 for 24 hour protection.

Let's also take some energy resistance. Oh... 1,000 points each of Acid, Fire, Sonic, Cold, Electricity, Force, Divine, Holy, and Unholy.
Ward again: 14 for 5, +1 per further point. So 14+995 = 1,009 for each energy type. 9 energy types = 9,081, for 24 hour protection. Running total: 9,275.

We also want some Epic damage reduction. How does... 1,000 points sound? That's Fortify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm): DC 17, +15 to make it Epic, rather than Magic, +2 per point of damage reduction above 1. So we're adding 999 points of DR to the base, for an extra 1,998 DC, this entry now totals 2,030 DC. Running total: DC 11,305

Now we want to make it last forever. That's Permanent, for *5. So for DC 56,525, we have all that until someone dispels it.

If you hire a bunch of 1st level spellcasters to donate a 1st level spell each to help you (56,525 of them), that's 565,250 gp market price to pay them. Or you can chain-gate, and just pay 1,000 xp... which the right item removes completely. Or you can make use of Permanent Summons, spend a few weeks warming up, and cast it that way.

Is "Immunity to spells 10th level and lower, take 1,000 off the top of every attack" close enough for you? Do note that this is doable at 21st.

[mustaju]

Do you have access to a fast-time plane (100 days on this plane should equal one round on the reference timescale you usually adventure on), and does your character have some form of immortality/longevity (for example Elan, Warforged, etc.)?

If so, a non-infinite, but rather strong way to use epic magic would be developing a Int-Buffing Spell to up your DCs:

(Copied from Kaelik on TGDMB, slightly adjusted numbers)

1) Take a Seed, or multiple Seeds.
2) Apply all the factors, increasing the base DC.
3) Apply all reductions.
4) Research spell.
5) Roll spellcraft check. You succeed, you cast the spell, you fail, your slot it used up.

To make a spell that provides a permanent bonus to intelligence, you take the Fortify Seed:

That's DC 17 for a +1 enhancement bonus of 20 hours. So you increase the bonus by 202 to get a +102 bonus to Int.

Then you mitigate it by 20 by adding 10 minutes to the casting time, then mitigate an additional 200 by increasing the casting time by 100 days.

You now have a DC of 0, so it takes 0 days, 0 XP, and 0 gold to research the spell, then you cast it.



Of course, direct damage isn't too bad, you could also look into the use of more efficient metamagic to improve on that.

Unfortunately, I don't think so. Also, the cheesier the exploits get, the more likely the GM is to just cut the method short before it can get used. Nice idea though. :) Mass-gating would also fall flat on it's ass, we got screwed over royally when we first attempted to exploit Planar binding. -.-

As for how much time I have, I should likely have 2 weeks to research anything I need.

[Gabe the Bard]

Epic spells aren't great for blasting, since at level 26 you only get two epic spells per day. They're great for buffing yourself and boosting your ability scores beyond what you can normally get with items and non-epic buff spells. Here's an example, which I believe you can research with your current resources.


Mastermind
Seed: Fortify
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 49
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Duration: 20 hours
Range: Personal
Development Cost: 441,000 gp, 9 days, 17,640 xp

This spell grants you a +28 enhancement bonus to Intelligence.

[stemfish]

Yes and yes. Massive mitigation mostly revolves around massive spellcasting summonings, or chain-gating. But being close to indestructible is a fairly simple application of Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/ward.htm).

First, we want to be immune to spells. So we go with Ward, which explicitly lets us be immune to spells:

"ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. "
As Epic spells count as tenth level, the first thing to be immune to is spells of tenth level or lower. 14 (base) + 9*20 (add 9 levels, for 10th) = 194 for 24 hour protection.

Let's also take some energy resistance. Oh... 1,000 points each of Acid, Fire, Sonic, Cold, Electricity, Force, Divine, Holy, and Unholy.
Ward again: 14 for 5, +1 per further point. So 14+995 = 1,009 for each energy type. 9 energy types = 9,081, for 24 hour protection. Running total: 9,275.

We also want some Epic damage reduction. How does... 1,000 points sound? That's Fortify (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/fortify.htm): DC 17, +15 to make it Epic, rather than Magic, +2 per point of damage reduction above 1. So we're adding 999 points of DR to the base, for an extra 1,998 DC, this entry now totals 2,030 DC. Running total: DC 11,305

Now we want to make it last forever. That's Permanent, for *5. So for DC 56,525, we have all that until someone dispels it.

If you hire a bunch of 1st level spellcasters to donate a 1st level spell each to help you (56,525 of them), that's 565,250 gp market price to pay them. Or you can chain-gate, and just pay 1,000 xp... which the right item removes completely. Or you can make use of Permanent Summons, spend a few weeks warming up, and cast it that way.

Is "Immunity to spells 10th level and lower, take 1,000 off the top of every attack" close enough for you? Do note that this is doable at 21st.

I love the idea, but two small things. Epic spells aren't 10th level, at least I've never seen it that way. Instead they're outside of the 'spell level' progression. 10th level spell slots are gained through epic feats and are used to metamagic up normal spells or to research spells that follow the base spells without going epic.
The other problem is finding 56,525 spellcasters to take part in your ritual. Actually, with sigil that isn't hard at all, but rather getting your DM to sign off on it.
But still, immune to any non-epic spell and almost every bit of damage? I'll take that.

As for other epic spells, I've always liked 'Nail to the Sky.' Save, or be the first character in the realm to enjoy space flight. Other than that look for some mass debuffing, 'Suburb Dispelling' is a good start, make it more specific and you can lower the DC/research cost.
Another good first epic spell is a good boost to your spellcraft, then you don't need 56k spellcasters, just 55 :)

[Jack_Simth]

I love the idea, but two small things. Epic spells aren't 10th level, at least I've never seen it that way. Instead they're outside of the 'spell level' progression.
Au Contrair (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#epicSpellLevels):
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells. (Emphasis added)

So yes, once you cast this, Epic spells won't affect you unless they specifically take down the Ward, first (or they use some form of ad-hock modifier to be treated as a higher spell level...).

10th level spell slots are gained through epic feats and are used to metamagic up normal spells or to research spells that follow the base spells without going epic.
The other problem is finding 56,525 spellcasters to take part in your ritual.
I was actually figuring on emptying a few standard Metropolis cities of their lowest-level spellcasters for a day. The NPC Adept-1 can do it, there's a rather lot of those in a Metropolis with the standard generation tables, and it doesn't matter at all what spell they prepared that day - any spell will do.
Another good first epic spell is a good boost to your spellcraft, then you don't need 56k spellcasters, just 55 :)Check the XP and time costs. Then check how high a level you need to be before you can actually fit that XP into one level, and how old you'll be when you complete the spell. You still will want them, even if you don't specifically need them.

[stemfish]

Seeing epic spells as 10th makes just about everything clearer... Our group wizard told us about that a while back and I've just been following along without bothering to check up on it. That's made SR checks, almost impossible, although we did make the save similar to special abilities (10+1/2 HD+main modifier) and that has worked out great, as it makes epic spells really feel that much stronger than regular.

Thanks for that little bit of knowledge!
It's been a while since being thoroughly corrected has made me happy.