DMing for a Dragon

[Enterti]

Hello playground goers. I have once again decided to begin a campaign and once again a problem has presented itself.

In a moment of foolishness and weakness on my part I have allowed one of my players the opportunity to play as a wyrmling bronze dragon. She is a new player so I am being lenient with the rules but I would still like a level of balance to this. In order to do that I imposed 6 levels of racial HD for the first session, but I told her that I would look into smoother options.

Which once again brings me to the playground. The rest of the party is level 3 right now and I would like some assistance making this as balanced and fair as possible to all those involved.

Thank you all
~~ Enterti

[faceroll]

Right now, a wyrmling dragon in the party is going to grossly outshadow them. It's got solid ability score boosts, a lot of flight, swimming, water breathing, the ability to speak with animals, 8 skill pts per level (with a skill cap of ranks), d12 HD, all good saves, natural attacks, and full BAB. She's basically a level 6 monk, but better.

So, as, at the very least, an ECL6 character in the party, I would say yeah, overpowered.

Do note, though, that the party will catch up, and those dragon HD, while nice, aren't really getting her anything spectacular. I would rather have 6 levels of class abilities than dragon HD.

She's going to be a melee beast. I would think about taking 3 HD from her (-3 BAB, -3d12+con HP, saves, etc). This helps her out in the long run, as it gets her class abilities sooner, and more of them, while also limiting, to some degree, how much she'll hog the glory of combat.

I believe that a bronze dragon wyrmling is, basically, an ECL6 creature. While it comes with nice things, it's basically an easy way to optimize a build, since it comes tough, with skills, saves, and flight. You can get all those things elsewhere, and more, with class and prestige class levels. Is it better than 6 monk or fighter levels? Yes, likely, but those aren't great classes. 6 levels of Warblade or Duskblade or Druid would be just as good if not superior, imo.

[Silva Stormrage]

Are you okay with homebrew? There are some good monster classes for dragons on GiantITP.

[Kefkafreak]

Our group has a Very Young Brass Dragon Duskblade PC. He uses dragon equipment from Draconomicon and barely keeps up with the rest of the party in battle. The rest of us are really optimized though.

[Zaydos]

Generally a dragon is actually about equal to a character of their hit dice (warblade/crusader to be more precise; less melee capability but better skills, flight, and defenses possibly even AC if you get barding). Exceptions exist (brass, silver, and shadow; the first two have save or die breath [sleep and paralysis] and the third has +3 or 4 better natural armor than other dragons of its HD and total concealment outside of bright light)

That said a 6th level dragon in a 3rd level party is going to break things just like a 6th level character would.

For a bronze wyrmling I'd advice giving them only 3 RHD at the moment (so BAB +3, base saves +3), reducing its natural armor to +2 (with the exception of Shadow Dragon, and maybe a few others, official true dragons have natural armor bonus = RHD -1), removing their repulsion breath, reducing mental ability score boni to +2 each, and either making their flight be limited in number of consecutive rounds and/or total rounds per day or reducing the speed and maneuverability (50-ft and poor). As they level up remove or reduce these penalties until at level 6 they have full bronze wyrmling traits. Technically they still might should have 1 LA but its a close thing. In general with a few exceptions (brass, silver) dragon LAs are about 3 too high (as demonstrated by the Dragon Cohort feat).

[TurtleKing]

Actually I wouldn't worry to much. I played a wyrmling-very young black dragon Duskblade once. My damage was nowhere near the other party members on most occasions, but I was the most manuavable by far compared to the rest. I used the fact I could swim fast to pull off pincer moves in a pirate campaign. Dragon Magazine #332 as the racial progression for the chromatic dragons and I think Dragon Magazine #325 is the one for the metallic dragons. The main problem this may pose is how her character can move. The breath may at most be a little annoying but not really destructive compared to the rest.

[faceroll]

Actually I wouldn't worry to much.

Once the whole party's ECL 6, sure, but right now, the wyrmling has a rogue's skill points, a barbarians HD, a monk's saves, and a fighter's BAB, 3 natural attacks, flight, and a breath weapon. And 2x as much of those to boot. It's a bit overmuch for an ECL 3 game, imo.

[DwarfFighter]

If game balance is your main concern, how about applying a number of negative levels to the wyrmling that it needs to work off by earning xp's?

If it's a ECL 6 creature, give it something like 1 to 5 negative levels (let's say 3). Each time the wyrmling would advance a level a negative level is removed instead. Once all negative levels are removed the wyrmling's next advance is in a character class.

-DF

[Taelas]

A wyrmling bronze dragon has ECL 10, not 6. (6 RHD, LA +4.)

So yeah, there's absolutely nothing fair about this.

[Heatwizard]

Oh, I think I heard part of this story already. Is this the guy who was reincarnated and kept killing himself?

[GodGoblin]

One of the dragon magazines has Dragon classes from levels 1-20.

Look it up and he will fit right in from level 1! :smallbiggrin:

[Tr011]

One of the dragon magazines has Dragon classes from levels 1-20.

Look it up and he will fit right in from level 1! :smallbiggrin:

I wanted to say the same :/
It's the only really good way to balance it for PCs I think.

[Essence_of_War]

Whats the starting ECL of the party?

Also, how many in-game years do you expect the campaign to run?

[only1doug]

Savage Species suggests progression through LA and Racial Hit dice, I've made my own tables for some of my players doing similar things.

I'd suggest looking at the benefits and dividing them between the levels.

I'll throw one together, see what you think.

Wyrmling Bronze Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#bronzeDragon)
Level Adjust (LA) +4, Racial Hit dice (RHD) 6
Str +2
Con +2
Int +4
Wis +4
Cha +2
+5 Natural Armour
Immunity to electricity,
water breathing,
speak with animals

Progression: Hatchling to Wyrmling

L1 RHD1 Immunity to electricity, water breathing, 15 ft., Glide, swim 15 ft.
L2 LA1 Int +2, +2 bonus Skillpoints, 20 ft., Glide, swim 20 ft.
L3 RHD2 +1 Natural Armour, Breath Weapon: cone of Repulsion DC11, Line of lightning 1d4 DC11
L4 LA2 Con +2, 30 ft, fly 40 ft. (average), swim 20 ft.
L5 RHD3, speak with animals, Breath Weapon: Line of lightning damage increases to 1d6
L6 RHD4 Wis +2 Breath Weapon: DC's increase to 12
L7 LA3 Int +2, +2 Natural Armour, 4 bonus skillpoints, 30 ft, fly 60 ft. (average), swim 30 ft., Breath Weapon: Line of lightning damage increases to 2d4
L8 RHD5 Cha +2, Breath Weapon: DC's increase to 13
L9 LA4 Wis +2, +2 Natural Armour, 40 ft, fly 80 ft. (average), swim 40 ft.
L10 RHD6 Str +2, 40 ft, fly 100 ft. (average), swim 60 ft. Breath Weapon; cone of Repulsion DC14, Line of lightning 2d6 DC14

Skills
Disguise, Swim, and Survival are considered class skills for bronze dragons.

RHD: gain a level of dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#dragonType)

Edit: I forgot speeds:
40 ft, fly 100 ft. (average), swim 60 ft.

Edit2: also forgot breath weapon
Line of lightning 2d6 DC14 Reflex 1/2
cone of repulsion gas DC14 Will negates

Edit 3:
your ECL3 (Effective Character Level) Wyrmling Bronze Dragon will have:

Immunity to electricity, water breathing,

Dragon 2 / LA+1
1D12 + Con Modifier + 12 Hitpoints
Int +2,

BAB +2
Ref: +3
Fort: +3
Will: +3

Skillpoints: (6+Int modifier)x5, +2 bonus

movement ratings 20 ft., Glide, swim 20 ft.

+1 Natural Armour,

Breath Weapon: cone of Repulsion DC11,
Line of lightning 1d4 DC11

[Enterti]

Generally a dragon is actually about equal to a character of their hit dice (warblade/crusader to be more precise; less melee capability but better skills, flight, and defenses possibly even AC if you get barding). Exceptions exist (brass, silver, and shadow; the first two have save or die breath [sleep and paralysis] and the third has +3 or 4 better natural armor than other dragons of its HD and total concealment outside of bright light)

That said a 6th level dragon in a 3rd level party is going to break things just like a 6th level character would.

For a bronze wyrmling I'd advice giving them only 3 RHD at the moment (so BAB +3, base saves +3), reducing its natural armor to +2 (with the exception of Shadow Dragon, and maybe a few others, official true dragons have natural armor bonus = RHD -1), removing their repulsion breath, reducing mental ability score boni to +2 each, and either making their flight be limited in number of consecutive rounds and/or total rounds per day or reducing the speed and maneuverability (50-ft and poor). As they level up remove or reduce these penalties until at level 6 they have full bronze wyrmling traits. Technically they still might should have 1 LA but its a close thing. In general with a few exceptions (brass, silver) dragon LAs are about 3 too high (as demonstrated by the Dragon Cohort feat).

I think that this may be the best and most elegant way of rebalancing. She will still outshine most of the group for a while but they will catch up.

@ Heatwizard- No that player was unable to join this campaign. The dragon is being played by someone without any experience whatsoever

@GodGoblin- any idea what volume that's in?

[TurtleKing]

The reason why I said I wouldn't worry too much is by using the racial progression in the Dragon Magazine. If you go that route it even recommends buffing them due to how weak they made the progression.

Edit: #325 or #329 I think.

[Andorax]

Dragon 320 (June 2004) has the full 1-20 racial progression for all the chromatic dragons. Everything neatly spelled out.


Good luck. It can definately change the dynamics of the campaign, but handled well, it can also be a lot of fun. One of the FEW chances I've had to play in recent years (I'm almost always the DM), one of the other players had a Silver that was somewhere between wyrmling and very young...and I was playing a Dragonfire Adept Kobold as a very determined lackey (who somehow had a hard time understanding the need or purpose to containing my evil tendancies...especially because I was doing it all "for his benefit").