Mixing Eberron and Iron Kingdoms?

[ZeroGear]

Ihave been a longstanding fan of steampunk setting, trying many times to make my own. It was though these attempts that I discovered several books, notably Mechamancy, Steam and Steel, but most importantly Iron Kingdoms. I was fascinated by the use of rune plates and the construction of mechanikal items, but slightly put off by the reliance on accumulators that require constant recharging. That was, until, I found the stormchamber in Lockand Load. I noticed that the level required was nearly the same for creating elemental bound items in Eberron.

Here's the thought: would it be possible to create components similar to accumulators by using elemental binding? Of course, these would limit their usefulness since they can only power plates that have enchantment bonuses, or abilities/spells of that type (I.e. A fire chamber could not power a frost plate) creating the need for additional chambers.
This concept could even be extended to certain outsiders to power alignment based abilities (a lantern archon powering a holy sword for example).

Would this work?

[Altair_the_Vexed]

If you say it works, then it works. :smallwink:

Of course, you'll need to check the rules side by side and see where the differences lie. As neither of those rules sets are OGL, I don't think we can post detailed discussion of them here.

The key issue, as I see it, will be caster level requirements vs utility - can IK power units provide the same uses per caster level as the Eberron power units?
If they are similar enough, then just allow both.

[ZeroGear]

I've checked the rules and noticed that Lightning Bolt (used for the stormchamber) is a 6th level spell, same as the planar binding spell. The only real difference is that one would need a shard (possibly a khyber shard or similar material if in another world) instead of the foils with a scribed spell.
Assuming we keep the flow of power regular (1/round light, 2/round regular, 4/round heavy, and 10/round superheavy) with normal prices (500, 1000, 2500, and 7500 respectively) it would prove interesting in shaping nations that use certain kinds of elements exclusively.

One thing troubles me though: does anyone have an idea where I can find information about steam paraelementals? I have been dying to find a way to create an elemental driven Warjack.

[T.G. Oskar]

I've checked the rules and noticed that Lightning Bolt (used for the stormchamber) is a 6th level spell, same as the planar binding spell. The only real difference is that one would need a shard (possibly a khyber shard or similar material if in another world) instead of the foils with a scribed spell.

Hunh? Lightning Bolt is a 3rd level spell, not a 6th level spell. Call Lightning Storm is a 5th level Druid Spell. Chain Lightning is the 6th level spell.

In any case, what you need is really Planar Binding and bind an air or storm elemental (most likely a storm elemental) with the Bind Elemental feat. The magic item doesn't really has to be a +1 unless it's a weapon, and you can decide to ignore that as part of the workout.

So, a cooperative agreement between House Cannith and the Zil gnomes? That would be an interesting plot hook for the Weaponmasters' Guild.

[Cieyrin]

One thing troubles me though: does anyone have an idea where I can find information about steam paraelementals? I have been dying to find a way to create an elemental driven Warjack.

The likely sources are between Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook and the Fiend Folio. I'm thinking Fiend Folio but I can't be sure at the moment.

[ZeroGear]

Hunh? Lightning Bolt is a 3rd level spell, not a 6th level spell. Call Lightning Storm is a 5th level Druid Spell. Chain Lightning is the 6th level spell.

error noted, just got a little hasty with the typing. On that note, do you think chain missile could work for a Force based power source?


In any case, what you need is really Planar Binding and bind an air or storm elemental (most likely a storm elemental) with the Bind Elemental feat. The magic item doesn't really has to be a +1 unless it's a weapon, and you can decide to ignore that as part of the workout.


And not even then. The cool thing about mechanikal weapons is that it doesn't need to be a +1 before it can have a special property. Air elemental works for electrical abilities (note the lightning rail), but the storm elemental as a power source for warjacks...you might have something there if a steam elemental can't be found.

Also, can someone give me price range for khyber shards?

[Cieyrin]

Also, can someone give me price range for khyber shards?

Dragonshards vary greatly in price depending on size and purity. From what I can gather from Eternal Wands (which use Eberron Dragonshards), they go from 100 gp and scale sharply in price from there, as larger shards, suitable for the airships and such, are much, much rarer and hard to come by, consequentally making them more expensive.

[ZeroGear]

If it's ok with everyone, I would like to get some concepts out of the way before I get working on fleshing out the nooks (which I would then put in a wold building thread).
To me, there has always been a technological flow of things. The way I see it, magic and technology evolve side by side in a setting, with new spells and abilities developing next to weapons, armor, and houses.

This is my take on how "eras" are broken down:

Pure magic (restricted to mages)
Clocktech (simple windup items)
Steam tech (simple steam units)
Magi tech (Complex magic steam Units)

In an era of pure magic, only mages can make entire magic items, and the use is restricted to those who can afford to pay mages to make stuff for them.
In an era of clock tech, magic items can be more easily made, at lower prices, but need to be rewound before they can be used.
In a steam tech era, steam engines are more common, but rely on single systems with hard-to-replace parts that consume fule in vast amounts.
In a magitech era, people have developed technology that is powered by magical "batteries", much like what I have been asking about earlier on.

I have long been toying with the idea of starting the players on a world where they have all the magitech stuff, including Iron Kingdoms type guns, where astral travel is starting to be the big thing. Could someone help me with ideas how ships would draw power from elementals and power such vessels (think inter planar magic spaceships)?

[EdroGrimshell]

Have you taken a look at DragonMech? Or the Blackmoor Setting's book Clock & Steam? Both would give a fair bit of inspiration and have a lot in the steampunk styles.

And Iron Kingdoms is actually not classified as steampunk, it's classified as full metal arcana and magitech. Though the bodger does cover a steampunk-ish mechanic.

Now, Eberron i believe falls under magitech because of the dragonshards and elemental binding that act like the magic batteries you described for it. Mixing in any of Iron Kingdoms, DragonMech, or Blackmoor would be able to give it a greater tech feel to it and would be quite interesting.

I actually think DragonMech would actually be a better option for the mix since they rely on steam technology for various small effects that get more powerful with more items attached to them (amplifiers, boilers, etc.). But adding IK to the mix with the arcane accumulators would be just as effective for converting steam technology to magitech and would make it a little more like actually building a magic item rather than just imbuing an item with magic properties. Accumulators made with dragonshards could also be more effecient and draw magical energy from the air or convert other forms of energy and store it, such as heat or kinetic energy being converted to pure magical energy.

Blackmoor is more pure tech with no magic involved, it's not steam, it's not clockwork, it's close to modern tech before digital stuff started coming around.

You may also want to take a look at the No Quarter magazines which are printed by Privateer Press (the same ones that made IK) and have options for the IK setting.

If you need help with anything i'm familiar with all above systems.

[DracoDei]

Brief note in passing: I have Blackmoor: Clock and Steam. I think they made the class work a little too close to a wizard for day to day adventuring, but the concepts and items they can create are good.

Ask me questions about it... I might answer them (having RL issues, same as everyone else, but they do mean that I can't be reliable).

[ZeroGear]

@edro:
I have read DragonMech, but the reason I didn't mention it was that it completely disreguards magic in the tpsteam creation and instead makes the new inventions usable only by two new classes. This is not an effect that I want to create. I like the mechs it shows, and those ideas are quite usable, but I don't want to include more classes than needed.
(also, how are warjacks and steamjacks not steampunk?)

Say, can anyone think of traits one can link to elementals? I'm having a hard time finding something suitable for alignment based power sources considering the binding of intelligent outsiders is a little discouraging. Sure, binding a fiend to save a village is reasonable, but I would still like to find a more moral solution to this problem (and yes, the idea of allowing exiled celestials to be bound by church officials has crossed my mind, but is that really going to happen very often?)

[Veklim]

Say, can anyone think of traits one can link to elementals? I'm having a hard time finding something suitable for alignment based power sources considering the binding of intelligent outsiders is a little discouraging. Sure, binding a fiend to save a village is reasonable, but I would still like to find a more moral solution to this problem (and yes, the idea of allowing exiled celestials to be bound by church officials has crossed my mind, but is that really going to happen very often?)
It's no different in my mind as it is to bind a large elemental, they're still intelligent, sentient creatures dude.

With regards to steam elementals, you could always just bind one fire and one water elemental, explains the need for a system instead of a unit.

[ZeroGear]

It's no different in my mind as it is to bind a large elemental, they're still intelligent, sentient creatures dude.

With regards to steam elementals, you could always just bind one fire and one water elemental, explains the need for a system instead of a unit.

Sentient? Yes. Intelligent? Now that is debatable. Statistically, their intelligence is between 4 and 10, and they rarely do anything for reasons aside from instinct. It may just be me, but the difference between an elemental and an outsider is like comparing a monkey to a human. Sure, both are living creatures, but one is more civilized with higher moral standards (no offense intended for anyone who likes monkeys). It's just the ethical feel that binding a celestial gives that is a bit of a put-off.

Now the idea with the water and the fire elemental, that is a cool concept. Now would this have the water elemental going though the pipes heated by the fire elemental, or have each power a spell (possibly create water and heat metal, or something similar)?

[Cieyrin]

Sentient? Yes. Intelligent? Now that is debatable. Statistically, their intelligence is between 4 and 10, and they rarely do anything for reasons aside from instinct. It may just be me, but the difference between an elemental and an outsider is like comparing a monkey to a human. Sure, both are living creatures, but one is more civilized with higher moral standards (no offense intended for anyone who likes monkeys). It's just the ethical feel that binding a celestial gives that is a bit of a put-off.

Now the idea with the water and the fire elemental, that is a cool concept. Now would this have the water elemental going though the pipes heated by the fire elemental, or have each power a spell (possibly create water and heat metal, or something similar)?

Having an Int higher than 2 makes them humanoid comparable. Yes, Int 4 elementals are largely forces of nature with instances of cunning popping in here and there but once you hit 7 and higher, they start understanding abstract concepts and can speak without getting angry about big words. Int 8-12 is humanoid-comparable intelligence and binding them to your purpose could be construed as a form of slavery comparable to doing the same to other outsiders. Elementals are pretty alien in their wants and needs from a humanoid standpoint but that doesn't mean they're mere beasts to be tamed and bound to a purpose, either.

[DracoDei]

Depending on the cosmology, who is to say that spending 10 years as the power source for a Holy weapon (or whatever) isn't the celestial version of a vacation?
Fluff it that the calling ritual for such a case specifically calls a WILLING celestial, that the binding auto-releases them to their home plane after a certain period of time if the owner doesn't take an hour to do it earlier, and that getting the object back to full functionality is simply a matter of casting a single, slightly modified Planar Ally type spell (or Planar Binding type for arcanists, who if they are ethical omit the summoning circle in such cases). Shift work for the cause of Good could be seen as part of a celestial's job description, they get to see a new plane (perhaps dimly unless special provisions for senses are made?), and 10 years is reasonable for an immortal being.

[Cieyrin]

Depending on the cosmology, who is to say that spending 10 years as the power source for a Holy weapon (or whatever) isn't the celestial version of a vacation?
Fluff it that the calling ritual for such a case specifically calls a WILLING celestial, that the binding auto-releases them to their home plane after a certain period of time if the owner doesn't take an hour to do it earlier, and that getting the object back to full functionality is simply a matter of casting a single, slightly modified Planar Ally type spell (or Planar Binding type for arcanists, who if they are ethical omit the summoning circle in such cases). Shift work for the cause of Good could be seen as part of a celestial's job description, they get to see a new plane (perhaps dimly unless special provisions for senses are made?), and 10 years is reasonable for an immortal being.

I think the Book of Exalted Deeds has Celestial Channeling through weapons, which grant them more power to fight the forces of evil in the mortal world, you may want to look there.

[Veklim]

I was thinking create water/heat metal with a boiler tank in the middle, between them.

[DracoDei]

I think the Book of Exalted Deeds has Celestial Channeling through weapons, which grant them more power to fight the forces of evil in the mortal world, you may want to look there.
I don't have that, so I can not comment on the applicability of that the original poster.

[ZeroGear]

Would it be a viable idea to allow weapons equiptment with "celestial power cells" to count as intelligent weapons? Well, only the whole weapon if the battery cell is actually installed, otherwise only the cell would count.

...ok, why can I now picture one of those yelling about him being trapped "in this stupid crystal can for xx years until someone finally had enough guts to beat that stupid dragon"?

Anyway, anyone now what to use for chaotic or lawful weapons and spells?

[Cieyrin]

Anyway, anyone know what to use for chaotic or lawful weapons and spells?

You'd bind Slaadi and Inevitables, respectively, I'd assume. Alternatively to Inevitables, you could bind a Modron, I suppose, though you'd probably need a decently powerful one and, since there's a limited number of 'em, you'd probably have Modrons after you. Instant plot hook!

[Veklim]

You'd bind Slaadi and Inevitables
Yup, my thoughts exactly. Inevitables would likely have no worries doing this either, I imagine there would be several who would actually volunteer for it. The Modron idea is funny though, and would make for one amusing story thread!

[ZeroGear]

So, given everything we just talked about, lwhat powers do you think one could power with a wood elemental, a shadow elemental, a taint elemental, and the four different paraelementals?

Also, what abilities do you think one could tie to each given elemental, and different outsiders? (do not list the flaming, frost, shocking, acidic, holy, unholy, archaic, and axiomatic abilities, those are kinda obvious).

[ZeroGear]

(pardon the double post)
Ok, to be fair, I'm not going to make you do all the work.

Shadow-shadow striking, dislocator,
Wood-changeling, bane, sizing
Taint-unholy,
Good outsiders-blessed, radiant, brilliant energy,
Evil outsiders-blood drinking, bone crunching, wounding,
Fire-charging
Earth-charge breaking metaline,
Water-aquatic,
Air-finesse, speed

Paraelementals could possibly count as two types of elementals at the same time.
Anyone have other ideas?