Crusader with Vow of Peace?

[Sir_Chivalry]

Is it workable?

What I'm looking towards is an antagonist crusader with the Vow of Peace and one of my homebrew prestige classes that allows exalted feats to still work on evil characters (Oathbreaker of Seraphitus), but I was also wondering is it viable as just a plain out Crusader? Is it better to go with Vow of Nonviolence instead?

[Yuki Akuma]

Most Crusader abilities require you to hit people.

Vow of Peace doesn't let you hit people.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Most Crusader abilities require you to hit people.

Vow of Peace doesn't let you hit people.

Slight oversimplification there:smallconfused:

Vow of Peace does allow you to do nonlethal damage.

[Kaeso]

Slight oversimplification there:smallconfused:

Vow of Peace does allow you to do nonlethal damage.

True, so if you're willing to take a -4 penalty on your attack rolls (which HURTS at lower levels) until you can afford a merciful weapon, it's not a bad option, though I don't see how you'd profit from the increased DC's that feat offers you.
It could work for a knight that's REALLY focused on his knights challenges, but for a cursader? Not so much.

[Sir_Chivalry]

True, so if you're willing to take a -4 penalty on your attack rolls (which HURTS at lower levels) until you can afford a merciful weapon, it's not a bad option, though I don't see how you'd profit from the increased DC's that feat offers you.
It could work for a knight that's REALLY focused on his knights challenges, but for a cursader? Not so much.

Now there's an idea. A knight. I was saying Crsader because they can lockdown and tank (as they are the best at getting people to attack them), but knight could help.

[Kaeso]

Now there's an idea. A knight. I was saying Crsader because they can lockdown and tank (as they are the best at getting people to attack them), but knight could help.

The knight is inferior to a crusader in almost every way, but at least they profit from an increase in DC. If you really want to make a build that's centered around VoPeace, go for it! Just because knight is weaker, doesn't mean he's useless. It's still a full BAB, HD 12 class that's the best non-ToB tank out there.

It'd also make for some interesting roleplay combined with the knights code: a cavalier that has trained his entire life and has sworn to protect the weak, yet refuses to kill.

EDIT: I actually remember JaronK posting a snazzy knight/crusader multiclass build, but I can't remember it atm.

[Andreaz]

True, so if you're willing to take a -4 penalty on your attack rolls (which HURTS at lower levels) until you can afford a merciful weapon, it's not a bad option, though I don't see how you'd profit from the increased DC's that feat offers you.
It could work for a knight that's REALLY focused on his knights challenges, but for a cursader? Not so much.

Orrrrrr he could use a sap.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Take Improved Unarmed Strike, no penalty for doing nonlethal damage.
Be a small size race, so your unarmed strike does 1d2 damage.
Get one or more Cleric levels with the Luck domain, and get Imbued Healing.
Take Aura of Chaos.
Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting.

Every punch your character delivers deals an infinite amount of nonlethal damage, every punch he delivers knocks out the recipient in a single blow. I think this is probably the only time when a 1d2 crusader would be even remotely acceptable, and only if played as "Stop it, I don't want to hurt you, please don't make me do this."

[Talya]

Take Improved Unarmed Strike, no penalty for doing nonlethal damage.
Be a small size race, so your unarmed strike does 1d2 damage.
Get one or more Cleric levels with the Luck domain, and get Imbued Healing.
Take Aura of Chaos.
Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting.

Every punch your character delivers deals an infinite amount of nonlethal damage, every punch he delivers knocks out the recipient in a single blow. I think this is probably the only time when a 1d2 crusader would be even remotely acceptable, and only if played as "Stop it, I don't want to hurt you, please don't make me do this."

You're an evil, evil man, you realize this? "Ooooh, be all exalted and nonlethal! While doing ultimate cheesy cosmic nonlethal damage that breaks the game! muahahahahaha!"

Okay, you win, so long as the OP is not lactose-intolerant. :smallbiggrin:

[Cespenar]

Every punch your character delivers deals an infinite amount of nonlethal damage, every punch he delivers knocks out the recipient in a single blow. I think this is probably the only time when a 1d2 crusader would be even remotely acceptable, and only if played as "Stop it, I don't want to hurt you, please don't make me do this."

So, as a man of peace, you punch people into a permanent coma?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Come to think of it, he would knock them into a permanent coma because it would take infinite time to heal the infinite nonlethal damage. That's not really a bad thing though, since you wouldn't ever have to worry about taking enemies prisoner or finding a distraction while your party finishes them off.

You could use the Martial Spirit stance (without the infinite damage combo) and punch people to heal them. Your hits would do 1d2 nonlethal damage, and you'd heal them for 2 points of damage plus an equal amount of nonlethal damage. Example:
http://kera.name/articles/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/magic_wellness_stick.png

You could totally go Apostle of Peace with this, if you start out at a somewhat high level just play him as a support caster, and refuse to deliver a harmful punch unless you absolutely have to. Don't let anyone know what he's capable of until you actually use it. Once they track down the BBEG who's done unspeakable acts of evil and gotten your character good and pissed, just run up and teach him a lesson via permanent coma. Get a nice wtfwasthat?! out of everyone.

That would probably go Crusader/Apostle of Peace/Contemplative, picking up a few more Crusader levels later on to get Aura of Chaos. Definitely get Ability Focus: Vow of Peace to add +2 to your calming aura and weapon shattering DCs.

[Kantolin]

Orrrrrr he could use a sap.

Or if he wanted to go with a one-handed weapon, a Truncheon, which is in the book of exalted deeds itself.

[Cespenar]

A permanent coma is hardly more humane than death, you know. Is there any way to cure an infinite amount of nonlethal damage?

[Sir_Chivalry]

A permanent coma is hardly more humane than death, you know. Is there any way to cure an infinite amount of nonlethal damage?

Refreshment from BoED comes to mind, does that exactly. The infinite punch on a villainous twisted morals guy might actually work nicely too.

[NNescio]

Dawn, a Druid cantrip or Ranger spell from the SpC, will wake him up and possibly reset his nonlethal damage total to his current hit points, leaving him staggered until he's healed further. Alternatively, it might not cure the damage at all, 'though it'll wake him and put him in a 'perma'-staggered state.

The latter interpretation is kinda ridiculous though.

[Kaeso]

Take Improved Unarmed Strike, no penalty for doing nonlethal damage.
Be a small size race, so your unarmed strike does 1d2 damage.
Get one or more Cleric levels with the Luck domain, and get Imbued Healing.
Take Aura of Chaos.
Get a Circlet of Rapid Casting.

Every punch your character delivers deals an infinite amount of nonlethal damage, every punch he delivers knocks out the recipient in a single blow. I think this is probably the only time when a 1d2 crusader would be even remotely acceptable, and only if played as "Stop it, I don't want to hurt you, please don't make me do this."

How does this combo work exactly :smallconfused:

[NNescio]

How does this combo work exactly :smallconfused:

Aura of Chaos lets you roll your damage die again while adding it to your total if you rolled max damage. You can do this for as long as you can roll max damage, and each roll stacks with all previous rolls.

If your damage die is 1d2, then rolling a 2 is max damage.

Imbued Healing lets you treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as a 2.

Therefore, you always roll maximum damage, and hence you will always roll extra dice. Since the loop never ends, you are practically dealing 'infinite' damage.

Getting out of the loop is somewhat sketchy from a RAW perspective though, since it's not clear if you can choose not to roll any more dice.

[Cespenar]

Getting out of the loop is somewhat sketchy from a RAW perspective though, since it's not clear if you can choose not to roll any more dice.

I think too that by heavy RAW, using that trick should "crash" the game. You can't really say you deal an infinite amount of damage. You should roll each roll, as stupid as it sounds. So, the attack never resolves.

[Kaeso]

Aura of Chaos lets you roll your damage die again while adding it to your total if you rolled max damage. You can do this for as long as you can roll max damage, and each roll stacks with all previous rolls.

If your damage die is 1d2, then rolling a 2 is max damage.

Imbued Healing lets you treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as a 2.

Therefore, you always roll maximum damage, and hence you will always roll extra dice. Since the loop never ends, you are practically dealing 'infinite' damage.

Getting out of the loop is somewhat sketchy from a RAW perspective though, since it's not clear if you can choose not to roll any more dice.

Makes sense, but where does the Luck domain come into play? If imbued healing treats every 1 as a 2, then you don't need a reroll.

[NNescio]

Makes sense, but where does the Luck domain come into play? If imbued healing treats every 1 as a 2, then you don't need a reroll.

Let me clarify further: Imbued healing lets you infuse your healing spells with a single carrier effect, depending on the domains you have access to (You get to choose which domain's carrier effect to use, out of the domains you have available). The Luck domain's carrier effect is the aforementioned damage roll trick.

[Kaeso]

Let me clarify further: Imbued healing lets you infuse your healing spells with a single carrier effect, depending on the domains you have access to (You get to choose which domain's carrier effect to use, out of the domains you have available). The Luck domain's carrier effect is the aforementioned damage roll trick.

So you punch your enemies to near death.... by healing them?
I like you, I like you a lot.

[NNescio]

So you punch your enemies to near death.... by healing them?
I like you, I like you a lot.

Additional clarification: You cast a healing spell (Conjuration [healing]) on yourself, giving yourself the Luck domain's carrier effect, which is a buff that lets you treat all 1s on damage rolls as 2s. The buff lasts for 1 minute per spell level of the healing spell used.

[Kaeso]

Additional clarification: You cast a healing spell (Conjuration [healing]) on yourself, giving yourself the Luck domain's carrier effect, which is a buff that lets you treat all 1s on damage rolls as 2s. The buff lasts for 1 minute per spell level of the healing spell used.

Can you also be a "true" pacifist and cast a healing spell on a party member (say, a halfling monk) and give him the rider effect instead?

[NNescio]

Can you also be a "true" pacifist and cast a healing spell on a party member (say, a halfling monk) and give him the rider effect instead?

Yes, but unless the halfing has Aura of Chaos and a 1d2 weapon, the rest of the trick won't work.

To clarify, for the trick to 'work':
The attacker must have Aura of Chaos as an active stance.
The attacker must roll damage with a [d2] weapon.
The attacker must be under the rider effects conferred by the Luck domain when Imbued Healing is used together with a Conjuration (Healing) spell casted on him.

Getting out of the resulting 'infinite' loop may still be a problem though.

[Kaeso]

Yes, but unless the halfing has Aura of Chaos and a 1d2 weapon, the rest of the trick won't work.

To clarify, for the trick to 'work':
The attacker must have Aura of Chaos as an active stance.
The attacker must roll damage with a [d2] weapon.
The attacker must be under the rider effects conferred by the Luck domain when Imbued Healing is used together with a Conjuration (Healing) spell casted on him.

Getting out of the resulting 'infinite' loop may still be a problem though.

I assume the most likely result is that this infinite loop breaks time and space itself, forcing all the players to create new characters for a new campaign in a new universe. You may or may not be hit with a DMG.

[RedWarrior0]

I assume the most likely result is that this infinite loop breaks time and space itself, forcing all the players to create new characters for a new campaign in a new universe. You may or may not be hit with a DMG.

Hit with a DMG for 1d2 nonlethal, with ones becoming 2s, and rolling again on max damage?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Aura of Chaos lets you roll your damage die again while adding it to your total if you rolled max damage. You can do this for as long as you can roll max damage, and each roll stacks with all previous rolls.

If your damage die is 1d2, then rolling a 2 is max damage.

Imbued Healing lets you treat any roll of 1 on a damage roll as a 2.

Therefore, you always roll maximum damage, and hence you will always roll extra dice. Since the loop never ends, you are practically dealing 'infinite' damage.

Getting out of the loop is somewhat sketchy from a RAW perspective though, since it's not clear if you can choose not to roll any more dice.

This is just... I mean....No words to describe the....It's both brilliant and horribly disturbing.