some classes braver than others?

[kanachi]

Hiya guys I was dming a session last game which had a particularly terrifying creature within the encounter. I made everyone roll up a will save and the ranger who has a relatively average wisdom score said "oh no I’m rubbish at will checks". Until now I had always thought this quite fitting to his character, he is easily drawn into a fight and easily tempted by various vices... however he’s not a cowardly character, in fact he is probably the "bravest" pc in the party.

I guess I was just wondering if you guys ever come across situations like this where the stats just seem to tell a story which is counter to the character and if you ever take action as a dm to address it. Is this simply a result of playing certain classes within the game? Are some simply more mechanically "brave" than others?

Should the average fighter not be braver than the average wizard in general? Or is that a poor assumption on my part?

[Kaeso]

I agree that a warrior that has fought on many a battlefield and has bested innumerable foes should be more gutsy than a wizard that grew up in the protected environment of an academy, but I assume that WotC's logic was that creatures (and spells/abilities/etc.) that force a will save against a fear effect are otherworldy horrors. Wizards, who are trained and learned in the way of the magic arts, and clerics/druids who have developped a strong willpower through a life of simplicity and moderacy, are more resistant to these otherworldly horrors than your average, run of the mill warrior who indulges in his cravings at regular intervals.

[kharmakazy]

Shrug. If you don't think it fits you can always switch it to fortitude for martial characters.

[CTrees]

PF at least made a nod towards acknowledging this, giving fighters a bonus vs. fear, but... if it fits that poorly, let him make a fort save, instead. 'Intestinal fortitude' or whatever.

[Telonius]

There are some feats that would model that sort of thing. Steadfast Determination lets you add Constitution (usually emphasized in martial classes) instead of Wisdom (more commonly dumped) to your base save.

I do think that the Fear Effects are more like Kaeso described. It's not that a Fighter is generally a coward. An onrushing horde of orc barbarians aren't going to make him run away. In fact, that's generally when the higher will-save people hide behind him. But something that has a Fear effect is either something so weirdly bizarre that even battle-tested soldiers would be creeped out, or it's a spellcaster-ish thing that is attacking the target's mental defenses. It does make some amount of sense that people who spend most of their time training in physical combat wouldn't have terrific defenses against that kind of thing.

[CTrees]

Dragon fear is a good example of 'it's a big, gribbly monster most people would be afraid of.' For that... it seems like the wizard should not be less afraid of it that the fighter, regardless of INT/Will. Some things are definitely inherently weird/unknown, but dragons are a good example of something that's not.

[OracleofSilence]

I always figured that this is more player choice then anything else.

Seriously, a cowardly fighter would be frickin' awesome to play, conversely,a suicidaly brace wizard (d4 hit die and all) would be ridiculously fun. Sure bravery may come more easily to a fighter, but it is not all inclusive, and a Will Save is required to be really brave anyway.

[Swooper]

Note that saves vs. fear are usually not will saves - instead, they are level checks modified by wisdom (so you roll a d20, add your level and your wis mod). A fighter is just as brave as a wizard, assuming equal wisdom.

[Telonius]

Note that saves vs. fear are usually not will saves - instead, they are level checks modified by wisdom (so you roll a d20, add your level and your wis mod). A fighter is just as brave as a wizard, assuming equal wisdom.

... this is not true for either 3.5 or Pathfinder.

[OracleofSilence]

yeah, the changed that out of 3e. but still, it is wierd, no reason to not make a special exemption for the cost of a feat or some thing (can role fort vs fear), maybe its an ACF for something?

[Ernir]

... this is not true for either 3.5 or Pathfinder.
Sometimes it is. Check the intimidate skill description.

Of course there are fear-inducing spells and monster special abilities that offer Will saves, but he isn't completely talking out his ass.

[Draz74]

Yeah, I've actually been wondering how much sense it makes to just switch most [fear] effects to Fortitude saves.

[Telonius]

Sometimes it is. Check the intimidate skill description.

Of course there are fear-inducing spells and monster special abilities that offer Will saves, but he isn't completely talking out his ass.

"Sometimes" isn't "usually," and Intimidate barely qualifies for sometimes (at least in my experience). In ten years of gaming, I've seen more Forgery checks than opposed Intimidate rolls.

[Thurbane]

Sometimes it is. Check the intimidate skill description.

Of course there are fear-inducing spells and monster special abilities that offer Will saves, but he isn't completely talking out his ass.
I think that Heroes of battle touches on morale checks for NPCs, but other than that, if you're going to have PCs make these (which, IMHO, is probably a bit excessive - these guys are professional adventurers. Unless the monster specifically has a fear effect, calling for a "morale check" for "scary monsters" seems a little uncalled for to me), then I would also recommend using the Intimidate check mechanic instead of calling for a Will save.

@ Telonius - that's interesting; Intimidate checks are a (relatively) common occurence in most 3.5 games I've played, especially for coercing info from a captured enemy.

[FMArthur]

If you gave every class that is thematically a "strong-willed hero" a good Will save, everyone but the Rogue and Ninja would have them.

I don't think any of the heroic fantasy staples that relate to one of the three saves has any connection whatsoever to the archetypes that D&D classes are made from. If I were to houserule anything about saves, it would be that you get to pick which ones you've got, not have the DM decide beforehand which ones get the arbitrary previledge of having the most defining trait of a fantasy hero.

[Cerlis]

alternatively if you feel that a characters personality should have such an affect on mechanics (without soaking up normal feats) you could either impliment Character Traits (not to be confused with character flaws) for a minor bonus, give people a bonus feat regarding their personality, or even rule that every 5 levels you and the player discuss what about their personality has greatly affected them or possibly grown (for instance a coward turning brave) and grant a feat accordingly.

I prefer the traits idea since you could get a trait ortwo that was fitting. you could also if you where clever enough, do something good with flaws.

For instance (keep in mind i dont know the flaws so i'm just winging it)

maybe he has the reckless flaw that decreases his AC by 1, but uses that flaw to get a feat that gives him +4 against fear effects.

so even though you are gaining a penalty and balancing it with a bonus, you are adding two mechanics via the flavor of your character.

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P.S. i'd like to point out that bravery and all that stuff...you can be very brave and still be just as vulnerable to a fear affect.

cus you see each of these bonuses represents a substantial boost to an ability.Dwarves are much hardier than humans, and +3 more resistantto poisons. Halfings are better survivers against anything, hence +3 on saves against fear, and +1 on everything else.

So yes the ranger is brave. and in the heat of battle your rogue might roleplay himself hiding, while the ranger charges into battle. thats the bravery being shown there....but "fear affects" represent a powerful often gruesome affect.other than intimidate most fear affects are extrodinary to supernatural abilities. It doesnt matter how brave you are, a Dragon aura is still going to terrify you.now you may overcome the penalty but you are still affected by it. A (whatever) avenger(from complete scoundrel) is so scary and gruesome in his blows that when he attacks it almost supernaturally is more terrfying than normal battle.

So he can be brave and still subject to fear affects as much as others. in fact that very well might be a source of ire for him. getting pissed at a certian monster or spellcasterfor degrading him to a terrified foul when he feels hes strongerthan that.

[Psyren]

Should the average fighter not be braver than the average wizard in general? Or is that a poor assumption on my part?

"Fighter" is a metagame construct. It applies to such a wide range of possible characters - from the tavern bouncer, to the career soldier, to the newly drafted recruit, to the arena gladiator, to the zen blademaster and everything in between - that it's improbable for the class alone to have any kind of mental bonus or penalty like that.

The idea behind the class getting all those feats is for you to customize your fighter to suit his background. A veteran with nerves of steel would be much more likely to take something like Steadfast Determination than the psychotic butcher.