Meldshaping Transparency

[Tvtyrant]

What would be the effect of allowing meldshaping transparency; Incarnates and Totemists gaining access to all meldshapes? Would they become Tier 2? Would it remove the issues Incarnate has with lack of offensive abilities?

[Psyren]

They already have them all. Do you mean removing the alignment restrictions?

[Swooper]

By definition they couldn't become Tier 2 simply by gaining access to more abilities of the same power. To be Tier 2, you need access to some of the big stuff (by which I mean mostly high level magic). So no, they wouldn't become Tier 2, but probably rise within Tier 3.

[AmberVael]

They already have them all. Do you mean removing the alignment restrictions?

I believe he means the class restrictions. As in, an incarnate could also access soulborn and totemist only soulmelds.

[Amnestic]

I believe he means the class restrictions. As in, an incarnate could also access soulborn and totemist only soulmelds.

That was my interpretation too. Would be interesting to see, though I'm not sure if it'd be enough to push it into Tier 2.

[Z3ro]

That...isn't quite how tiers work. Tier 2 isn't just a step up from tier 3, it's another ballpark entirely. Tier 3 does everything well, tier 2 breaks the game sometimes. Nothing in Incarnum really breaks the game.

[Big Fau]

I don't really see much of a problem with doing so, since the Totemist can't access the Soul Chakra and the Incarnate can't use the Totem chakra, but I'm not an expert on Incarnum myself.


But they would not be capable of rewriting reality, which is a prerequisite to entering Tier 2.

[Veyr]

Before the Soul Chakra comes online, I'd have to question why I'm playing an Incarnate at all when the Totemist gets an extra Chakra and can use all my best melds/binds, while I can't access any of his best binds at all.

Hell, Incarnate Avatar is arguably better for a Totemist: if he's LG/CG/LE/CE, he gets two of the bonuses, while the Incarnate can only ever be NG/LN/CN/NE.

[Psyren]

I believe he means the class restrictions. As in, an incarnate could also access soulborn and totemist only soulmelds.

Eh. Why bother having different meldshapers then?

Also, I agree that this wouldn't be enough to push them to T2.

[Glimbur]

There are a few soulmelds which are worth spending a feat on even if you are already a meldshaper: Thunderstep Boots have a nice bind effect but you don't want to be a Soulborn, the Blink Shirt is very nice so Incarnates might spend a feat for it, and I could see a Totemist shaping Dissolving Spittle to have a ranged attack.

The bigger problem is that this idea erases most of the difference between Totemist and Incarnate. What you are left with is choosing either 3/4 BAB from Totemist or better soulmeld capacity from Incarnate. There are slight differences in essentia and such also, but that's what the choice would boil down to.

[subject42]

Nothing in Incarnum really breaks the game.

I thought there were some infinite loops available through Necrocarnum and/or psycarnum infusion.

[Glimbur]

I thought there were some infinite loops available through Necrocarnum and/or psycarnum infusion.

You can get all the essentia you want via Necrocarnum Apostle, but not strictly infinite as it lasts a day and takes an action to get. This combines nicely with Heart of Incarnum, which gives you bonus hit points equal to your essentia pool. This is troublesome but not invulnerability: you do have a finite amount of hit points and can be dealt with in non-hp-damage ways.

You can maybe get infinite PP by using the feat to turn your psionic focus into full essentia for one receptacle for one round(Psycarnum Infusion), combined with the feat that gives you extra PP by investing essentia(Azure Talent) but at most you are gaining 10 power points at level 17ish, so unless the power points are ruled to stick around after the effect which increases your pool ends then you can do ~5th level powers all day at level 17.

That's all I can recall offhand.

[Tvtyrant]

I believe he means the class restrictions. As in, an incarnate could also access soulborn and totemist only soulmelds.

This is what I meant; and not having them be particularly distinguished doesn't bother me too much, they would basically be ACFs of each other.

I can see it still being Tier 3, though it is slightly disappointing.