Psychokinetic Champion

[Lord Ruby34]

In a campaign I'm running in real life one of my players is trying to make a psionic gish, I was helping him with his build when I noticed the adaption section of the class. Unfortunately last time I tried to edit a class I ended up screwing up, big time. Anyway I need help with changing up this class.

I was looking a Psychokinesis as the powers that could be used, but that doesn't seem to fit quite right. And how many power points are reasonable to use for the psionic boost? I'm being extra careful when doing this because of what I did wrong last time.

And what other classes would be good for an Int focused psionic gish that wants to dump strength?

[Yora]

What kind of character are you exactly talking about? The only hit on google of psychokinetic champion is this thread.

What level will you be playing it, was classes is the character supposed to use, and what do you want to character to be like?

[Psyren]

He's referring to the Abjurant Champion adaptation (CM pg. 52) that makes it psionic.

OP: It's not hard to adapt. Psychokinetic Armor can stay unchanged. So can Extended Kinesis - Psychokinesis powers with durations tend to be the kinds of things that fit into Abjuration anyway (e.g. Energy Wall, Psychokinetic Sphere.) Swift Kinesis can be changed to self/ally only powers if you want. Psychic Boost can just require PP expenditures instead of spells, and expending focus. Martial Manifester can stay unchanged.

[Lord Ruby34]

The character is starting at level four, but likely going into this class as soon as possible. The player is trying to play an Int based psionic gish, which I'm trying to help with with, but's it's a bit out of my league. We intend to play to twenty, but the campaign might more realistically end at around level seventeen.

What I mostly need help with is rebuilding the Abjurant Champion as a psionic class that works the way it's supposed to. This might have been a better topic for the homebrew forum, but I wasn't sure.

Thanks.

[subject42]

If you're looking quasi-official alternatives like a Psionic Abjurant Champion, take a look at the Psychic Rogue.

Alternately, you could muck about with the Factotum so that it has a Power Point reserve instead of spell-like abilities.

[Lord Ruby34]

Okay, I think I've figured out the best way to deal with the psionic boost. It should be 1 power point for a first level effect, 3 for a second, 5 for a third and so on, right.

Now I just need help with the rest of the build.

[Psyren]

Okay, I think I've figured out the best way to deal with the psionic boost. It should be 1 power point for a first level effect, 3 for a second, 5 for a third and so on, right.

Yep.


Now I just need help with the rest of the build.

Slayer's a good idea for a psionic gish and so is Sanctified Mind. 3.5 or Pathfinder?

[Lord Ruby34]

3.5, with anything that's not grossly OP'd available. Like say, natural spell.

EDIT: Okay, what I've got so far is Full BAB 3/Psion 1/Slayer 1/Psychokinetic Champion 5/ Slayer 9/Psion 1

What should the first three levels be? I was half thinking swashbuckler so strength could be a dump stat, but Warblade might work better.

[Psyren]

My personal choice for psionic gishes is Ranger - you get a ton of skill points to go with your high Int, a free Track feat to enter Slayer with, and a favored enemy (arcanist is a good choice.)

[Lord Ruby34]

That would actually work well.

Ranger 2/Psion2/Slayer1/Psychokinetic Champion 5/Slayer 9/and then something that gets another manifesting level, probably psion. That gets 9th level powers and a BAB of +18 right?

And I'll let Slayer and ranger stack for favored enemy bonuses. That should work rather well.

[Essence_of_War]

...Sanctified Mind...

I really like this choice for psy-gish also.

Unlike slayer, whose mental protection capstone comes at 9th level, the sanctified mind's mental protection ability gets online at 1st level! Entry requirements for each are comparable and if you start at high level, slayer is almost certainly a better choice, but if you're starting at low level, give the Sanctified Mind a look!

[Lord Ruby34]

I really like this choice for psy-gish also.

Unlike slayer, whose mental protection capstone comes at 9th level, the sanctified mind's mental protection ability gets online at 1st level! Entry requirements for each are comparable and if you start at high level, slayer is almost certainly a better choice, but if you're starting at low level, give the Sanctified Mind a look!

Where is this found? I don't see it in complete psionic, or in the SRD. I'll give it a look if you can direct me to it.

[Psyren]

Where is this found? I don't see it in complete psionic, or in the SRD. I'll give it a look if you can direct me to it.

Lords of Madness. Full BAB, 5/6 manifesting.

[Lord Ruby34]

Lords of Madness. Full BAB, 5/6 manifesting.

I'll talk to him about both options then and see which one he likes. I personally prefer slayer after looking at them both, but they both look nice.

[Essence_of_War]

They are both very good, and it is really tough to go wrong with either, I would consider strongly what level the game is starting/ending at to make sure he has time to get and enjoy some of those slayer abilities though.

Aside, straight Psychic Warrior 20 makes an excellent out-of-the-box psy-gish as well. It gets a ton of bonus feats to do cool things with, full ML, and a reasonable dollop of PP to fuel its powers. By the time you have access to slayer's cerebral immunity, you'll likely be able to manifest personal mind blank anyway (which allows you to free up your psionic focus for more fun things like power attack + deep impact :smallbiggrin:)

It doesn't "feel" like the same kind of psy-gish you get from starting with a psion base (it won't be doing any telekinesis or blasting, specifically) but its power list is already made up of a ton of useful combat powers.

Finally, I don't really recommend dumping Str since it's hard to find a source of extra damage, but if you go with the build you mentioned:

Full BAB 3/Psion 1/Slayer 1/Psychokinetic Champion 5/ Slayer 9/Psion 1
Swashbuckler gets int->damage after a 3 level dip and is full BAB. Also, Knowledge Devotion can give you up to a +5 to attack and damage if you're taking lots of ranks in knowledge skills (the psion has all of them on its list :smallamused:). If you're set on playing an int based gish, these two together can be the source of extra damage you need to stay relevant in melee.

[Yorae]

Lords of Madness. Full BAB, 5/6 manifesting.

If you DO happen to go with a ranger with favored enemy: arcanist, you might try to convince your DM to allow Cleansing Strike and Disrupting Strike to work against spellcasters via magic-psionics transparency -- would be cool and flavorful with that favored enemy choice, imo.

I'm currently working on something similar - a psionic samurai-type character that is ultimately:
Samurai (OA) 1 / Erudite 6 / Human Paragon 3 / Psychokinetic Champion 5 / Iaijutsu Master 5
(I'm trying to refluff the katana from Ancestral Daisho to also be his psicrystal... so he can literally "commune with the spirit of his blade")

If you wanted to drop the Samurai / Iaijutsu schtick I've got going on, it would be pretty simple to drop Samurai and Iaijutsu Master, insert Sanctified Mind/Slayer and maybe swap Erudite for Psion/Ardent/Wilder.

(Thanks for your help with my stuff, btw, Psyren! I may post a thread about the full build sometime soon. :smallbiggrin:)

[Essence_of_War]

I'm currently working on something similar - a psionic samurai-type character that is ultimately:
Samurai (OA) 1 / Erudite 6 / Human Paragon 3 / Psychokinetic Champion 5 / Iaijutsu Master 5
(I'm trying to refluff the katana from Ancestral Daisho to also be his psicrystal... so he can literally "commune with the spirit of his blade")


That actually looks pretty cool! I might consider swapping the Iajitsu Master for something like Sanctified Mind just to keep advancing his manifesting, but I really like the feel!

[Psyren]

Finally, I don't really recommend dumping Str since it's hard to find a source of extra damage

I wouldn't dump it, but it doesn't need to be that high either. There are plenty of ways to buff it, and just as many to add bonus damage.



I'm currently working on something similar - a psionic samurai-type character that is ultimately:
Samurai (OA) 1 / Erudite 6 / Human Paragon 3 / Psychokinetic Champion 5 / Iaijutsu Master 5
(I'm trying to refluff the katana from Ancestral Daisho to also be his psicrystal... so he can literally "commune with the spirit of his blade")


Why rely on fluff when you can REALLY turn your weapon into a psicrystal? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

[Essence_of_War]

I wouldn't dump it, but it doesn't need to be that high either. There are plenty of ways to buff it, and just as many to add bonus damage.

True, true. I just got a little concerned when the OP said this:


And what other classes would be good for an Int focused psionic gish that wants to dump strength?

Aside but relevant, I'm away from my books right now, the Swashbuckler's Int to damage ability isn't constrained to light or one-handed weapons is it? If so, if their build is able to take Power Attack, they can still use Power Attack + Deep Impact with a weapon wielded in two-hands to get extra damage also!

[Lord Ruby34]

True, true. I just got a little concerned when the OP said this:


Aside but relevant, I'm away from my books right now, the Swashbuckler's Int to damage ability isn't constrained to light or one-handed weapons is it? If so, if their build is able to take Power Attack, they can still use Power Attack + Deep Impact with a weapon wielded in two-hands to get extra damage also!

Yeah, dump might not have been the best choice of words. I meant something like 10-13. The player I'm going to be showing this thread to has played strong characters more often than dexterous ones. And I think he'd appreciate not having to do so again.

[Yorae]

I wouldn't dump it, but it doesn't need to be that high either. There are plenty of ways to buff it, and just as many to add bonus damage.



Why rely on fluff when you can REALLY turn your weapon into a psicrystal? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d)

Hah - Bonded Weapon winds up being really similar, except the progression is significantly faster, but sacrifices XP instead of GP to improve the weapon. The ability to maximize the damage dice of a melee attack is kind of neat -- if that works with iaijutsu... ouch!

The feat cost is pretty darn prohibitive, though, and the manifesting progression is still not so great.

Also noting for the benefit of the OP that the first level of Iaijutsu Master gives int to AC.

[Essence_of_War]

For my own benefit (I've been thinking about an adaptation of the Abjurant Champion for a while!), how are you re-crunching the "Arcane Boost" class feature?

[Yorae]

For my own benefit (I've been thinking about an adaptation of the Abjurant Champion for a while!), how are you re-crunching the "Arcane Boost" class feature?

Use an equivalent number of PP in place of the spell level.

1st = 1pp
2nd = 3pp
3rd = 5pp
4th = 7pp
5th = 9pp
6th = 11pp
7th = 13pp
8th = 15pp
9th = 17pp

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think expending PP equal to the normal spell level ( (PP*2)-1) is the formula IIRC
Edit: Somewhat swordsage'd...

[Essence_of_War]

I think expending PP equal to the normal spell level ( (PP*2)-1) is the formula IIRC

Right that would have been my 1st order approximation also.

However, I'm concerned that it makes the class quite a bit better for psionics than for magic. Magic users have assigned slots, they have to make some opportunity costs between using Arcane Boost for N and having fewer N level spell slots available. Doesn't the fact that the psionics user can expend PP = to his ML on Arcane Boost make that ability strictly better for the psionics user? Or do you find that it ends up balanced by the propensity to nova?

Edit: Or is it just fine that it is better since they're giving up casting for melee prowess, a typically inferior trade as far as flexibility for problem solving goes.

[Psyren]

If you're really worried that the psionicist can get more mileage out of spending PP than the wizard can out of spending slots, make them blow their psionic focus too. Easy.

[Veyr]

Metapsionic effects cost 2 Power Points less than the straight conversion of Spell Levels to Power Points, so that would appear to be the value of expending Psionic Focus.

For example, Maximize Spell increases a spell's level by 3. Increasing a power's level by 3 would increase the Power Point cost by 6, but Empower Power only increases the cost by 4 because expending Psionic Focus covers the other 2. All Metapsionic feats that mimic Metamagic feats seem to share this formula.

[Essence_of_War]

If you're really worried that the psionicist can get more mileage out of spending PP than the wizard can out of spending slots, make them blow their psionic focus too. Easy.

*slaps forehead* duh, of course, that's what we have that mechanic for :smallbiggrin:

[Stallion]

If you really wanted a mental ability based gish but don't mind something besides intel, you could swap out psion for ardent and try a 2 swordsage/4 ardent/9 slayer/1 shiba protector/4 psychic abjurant champion. Wisdom to AB twice, to damage once, to AC, a few martial maneuvers, 9th level manifesting, and +18 BAB, along with all the little class goodies you get from slayer and psychic abjurant champion.