Has anyone tried to model weapons more realistically?

[randomhero00]

As in, a shaving razor (the old fashioned kind, that were super sharp) being able to slit someone's neck (think matrix, those twins that could move through matter used razors quite well). Dead is dead. In other words, a grittier weapon system without making the entire system completely gritty.

For instance, I don't see why it'd ruin the game if the shaving razor did as much damage as a short sword or even a greatsword. Sure it'd be way way less likely to do as much damage as a greatsword, but if it crit it'd still be lethal.

I don't know exactly what I'm asking. Just tossing the idea around in my head of a more realistic system.

Plus, it'd make sense to even have a magic razor as it be a perfect assassin's weapon. Very concealable and if found, not suspicious at all.

[Seerow]

You're looking for a totally different game from D&D if that's what you want. Just saying.

[Rogue Shadows]

Not entirely true.

Grab the Vitality Point/Wound Point system from Star Wars: Revised Edition.. Under that system, critical hits, instead of multiplying damage, are applied directly to Wound Points. Wound Points are equal to your Constitution score.

Take Wound Point damage is therefore a lot more lethal than taking Vitality point damage (VP behaves just like HP). Any time you take Wound Point damage, you risk falling unconscious. Reduing you to -1 WP means you're dying.

Since characters can have hundreds of VP, but not nearly as high WP, it sort of allows for a grittier system.

Though you could also end up with a lot of dead PCs.

[Eldariel]

Vitality Points/Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) system does precisely what you want and works alright. Takes some willing suspension of disbelief but c'est la vie.

[randomhero00]

I don't really want it more deadly, just more homogenized I guess. Some mechanism that makes a razor nearly as deadly as a greatsword. I supposed making all the damage closer to the same, and all crits do the same damage might work.

For instance, I don't want to penalize a player because of stylistic reasons. Perhaps do what 4e did and make some weapons more accurate so that they average out to being closer in damage. Think that'd work?

[Gnome Alone]

Y'know, this is kind of weird for me as I was just ran into an old thread on another forum about how unrealistic the weapons of 3.5 are. The main target were things like the double weapons (i.e., just about every one of them besides a quarterstaff are ridiculous) as just being poorly designed - but also someone pointed out that daggers should be able to dish out a freaking TON of damage, and that slings: a) are hard to use well and shouldn't be simple weapons, 2) are capable of really messing people up and c) can actually out-range longbows. All of which is to say that I've been trying to think of how to improve the stats of daggers and slings in the right direction, particularly as that would make a Gray Mouser build more effective since he uses both of those, and the Gray Mouser is my homie.

[ericgrau]

Attempts at realism generally lead to horrible imbalance... and 10 times less realism. While homebrew is the worst offender, this includes the systems that are supposedly so good at it.

As for slings they may not seem simple for us but they are simple for those who train in them, simpler than being trained to use a bow well, to the point of deforming finger bones. And more common among common folk. IIRC you're looking at a very specific sling out-ranging a very specific longbow, and generally the more advanced bows out-ranged the slings by a wide margin. In fact the lifetime of training it takes to use a bow well frustrated one military commander after the invention of guns. Everyone stopped using armor b/c of guns, so he got the bright idea to ask for a few hundred (thousand?) archers. After all archers could shoot faster and kill more unarmored troops. But there weren't so many well trained archers in existence anymore.

I'm just guessing but as painful as a 6 inch piece of metal may be I'm sure a 3 foot piece of metal is still more painful.

As for how to pull off daggers and slings by the rules: Slings are usually the best ranged backup weapon for low level melee before multiple attacks, even better than martial weapons. They're a poor man's composite bow, better than a non-composite longbow. Daggers are good for throwing / melee mixes, such as rogues. You get round 1 full attack sneak attack with thrown daggers, then switch to melee next round. TWF gives an extra attack for throwing too. You only need 1 weapon focus for your rogue's desperately low attack bonus. Saves on feats. Though like slings thrown weapons are only good at low levels, before magic weapons. You can delay the transition into magic weapons by getting boots of speed and gloves of dexterity first.

[QuidEst]

Well, take the razor… it'd be really hard to use that in a fight against somebody with any sort of "real" weapon. Like you said, though, good for an assassin. If they ever have to fight somebody with a real weapon, something has already gone horribly wrong.

In my mind, there are a few options for using it. One is to just treat it like a normal in-system weapon. Give it average stats, and separate the mechanics from the fluff entirely. What I'd be inclined to do, though, is to let a rogue use it on sneak attacks. Give them a penalty on avoiding being spotted, since they can't just backstab, but give it a little extra range to crit, since they're going for the neck. Not much extra mechanics, there's a tradeoff (with part of the pros being looking really awesome, and maybe being able to bluff-check your way into a sneak attack, a la Sweeney Todd.) Penalties, crit ranges, and variations on the Chunky Salsa rule can all be applied in varying degrees to obtain in-game balance.

If you want razor insta-kills, though, it should be proportionately harder to get into a position where that's an option.

EDIT: I suppose the one other option that comes to mind is to apply the willing suspension of disbelief to availability of a weapon. Basically apply a tax on the Rule of Cool. Yeah, you can get a razor that does all that, but you're going to have to forfeit gold to some random event (gambling and losing it, having it stolen with no reasonable chance of recovering it, etc.) like you were buying a regular weapon of comparable power.

[Hat-Trick]

Make it a weapon that can't be used effectively in normal combat (-5 to hit vs armored opponents/no damage to the previously stated? only in combat), but make attacks out of combat automatic coup de grace attempts with a ridiculously high crit multiplier (*5 in such cases, only *3 at best in actual combat, more likely a *2). You just made an assassin's weapon.

Thoughts?

[opticalshadow]

a long time ago me and a friend thought alot about hwo we didnt like the way dmg worked in dnd. this was actually an example "if im behind a guy he doesnt know it and i slit his jugular, why does he not just die instead of loseing 12 hp?"

one thing i was also sad with is the way armor worked. the ac system tosses armor and mobility together, which is pretty disbeliving. if im wearing full plate, there are just some weapons that should touch me, and chainmail is obviously going to prevent dmg from one type of weapon, and a breastplate another. so we wrote a system that worked around DR, diffrent armors would provide diffrent base dr that had to be overcame, with specific ratings twords certian weapons. an aiming system in the realm of fallout2 was used (basic ac rolls now to determin if you land a blow mobility helped here, then you rolled dmg, but this is where armor came in, alternitivly you could attack specific parts like sunder, with base percentages,


then we found out sevral systems out there do similure things. and armor DR were easier to add.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Joe the commoner crits Bob the commoner with a small-sized dagger and does 2d3 damage. Bob has 1d4 HP. Most of the time, Bob is bleeding out and dying. Your problem is that such crits don't kill tougher creatures (including PCs), but big tough animals don't die to shaving razors, and PCs have plot armor.

[Slipperychicken]

a shaving razor being able to slit someone's neck


Coup de Grace. Automatic critical against helpless enemies (I would consider the guys going under Sweeny's razor as being mechanically helpless, at the *very* least flat-footed, that extra d6 goes a long way in killing low-level opponents). You can one-shot a normal, low-level human with pretty much anything if you catch it off it's guard from behind... which the rules actually represents sort of. I mean, the low levels are pretty darn lethal in general, representing the randomness of combat and how fragile mortals like us really are (i.e., most of us are going to be at least bleeding out after a sword slashes our flesh, and will probably die without immediate medical attention). You probably are looking for a different game though...

[Lapak]

On the very theory of 'once you successfully hit, any weapon is just as likely to kill you,' the original version of D&D assumed 1d6 for all weapons. (Keeping in mind that hit points were in line with this.) So yes, it's certainly not that outrageous an idea. It would be perfectly reasonable to standardize weapon damage while making weapons distinct through other methods. Introducing more shades of reach (sword vs. razor is a tough fight for the razor at arm's length) or weapon/armor interactions (you want a pick or a mace for plate, a thrusting sword for padded armor, etc.) could move things in the direction you're looking at.

[Xyk]

I'd like to restate the Vitality/Wounds system. I'm implementing it myself in my new campaign that will happen in a week or so. It, combined with a houserule or two (like giving coup de graces double damage in addition to affecting wound points or something), should work fine. If a player slits a throat in an enemy's sleep, it's totally within the DM's right to say "his throat bleeds profusely and he stops breathing". Problem solved.

[agahii]

I always saw HP as a characters ability to move in such a way as to make a blow that hits them damage them less. As the character gained levels he gets more HP, which represented getting better at this. The hits that connect still break skin and can deliver poison ect, but he moved slightly and instead of being gutted by that 30 damage like he would have been at level 1, he takes 30 damage but since his hp is 50 at this point, "in character" he moved in such a way as to not be gutted.

With this in mind, the razor blade thing would be a seasoned warrior knowing that it is sharp and small so he knows how to not get his throat slit in melee combat with an assassin.

I agree that against someone that is unaware of any danger, an auto coup de grace would be in order. It would be a house rule, but I as a pretty much permanent DM would be fine with it. On sneak attacks after combat starts I would not run it this way because an opponent would know something is up and would not be as easy to throat slit, especially at higher levels.