Gestalt Swordsage build (flavor and power)

[Woodzyowl]

So, as I said, I want to make a gestalt Swordsage/probably Barbarian that is at least semi-literally a beast. It would preferably be primarily based around this build (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Feral_Shifter_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29 ). I'd like to keep it as a two weapon fighter, but more strength based than dexterity based. And, of course, gestalt, which is the biggest reason I need your help. I'm a decent optimizer for one row of levels, but the gestalt synergy stuff is a little beyond me (though I did see that barbarian had high BAB, high HD, and low skill points, which is why I was considering it heavily for its swordsage synergy).

[The Rabbler]

what sources are available, what level does it need to be playable at, what's your point buy, etc?

EDIT: also, does it need to incorporate shifter/weretouched master? they're pretty sub-par as far as races/classes go.

EDIT2: also also, is there anything else you want to incorporate? there's a lot you can do with gestalt.

EDIT3: I can't believe I forgot this, but what's your cheese tolerance?

[Woodzyowl]

what sources are available, what level does it need to be playable at, what's your point buy, etc?

EDIT: also, does it need to incorporate shifter/weretouched master? they're pretty sub-par as far as races/classes go.

I have every source WotC printed at my disposal, 32 point buy, and only has to be playable from 10-11 onward. And, no, it's allowed to have anything, as long as it includes swordsage, a shapechanging ability, and fits the flavor. But preferably NOT druid, because I'm in a 2-person party with someone who plays high t4/low t3, and therefore can't pull any wizard/druid/cleric shenanigans. Which are always tempting when playing one.

EDIT 3: Anything that makes me better at changing shape is welcome.That would be all the more flavor involved.

EDIT 4: Cheese to me is like salt to you as per your signature.

[The Rabbler]

I have every source WotC printed at my disposal, 32 point buy, and only has to be playable from 10-11 onward. And, no, it's allowed to have anything, as long as it includes swordsage, a shapechanging ability, and fits the flavor. But preferably NOT druid, because I'm in a 2-person party with someone who plays high t4/low t3, and therefore can't pull any wizard/druid/cleric shenanigans. Which are always tempting when playing one.

hmm, sounds solid. Will the person you're playing with be providing the utility? if not, you might have to go at least a little bit of wizard/druid/cleric just to keep the two of you alive.

[Woodzyowl]

hmm, sounds solid. Will the person you're playing with be providing the utility? if not, you might have to go at least a little bit of wizard/druid/cleric just to keep the two of you alive.

I think so. He's going warlock, so he has some decent buffs/debuffs. Our idea is to beat things up faster than they can beat us up. And I'm going to be the primary damage soaker, which is why I wanted barbarian levels incorporated. And, yes, if I want to use Oriental Adventure's bear warrior instead of CWs, I can.

[Urpriest]

Weretouched master isn't a horrible direction to go, even if it's not optimal. I'd definitely use Bloodclaw Master, at least for two levels.

[The Rabbler]

I think so. He's going warlock, so he has some decent buffs/debuffs. Our idea is to beat things up faster than they can beat us up. And I'm going to be the primary damage soaker, which is why I wanted barbarian levels incorporated. And, yes, if I want to use Oriental Adventure's bear warrior instead of CWs, I can.

hmm... warlock won't provide the utility you need. how does something like conjurer 4/swordsage 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 5//barbarian 1/totemist 3/warblade 1/bloodclaw master 5/totem rager 10 sound?

Sure, it's not all that much of a beast, but pick the right race and play into the totemist's natural attacks and you can get some turned heads. Hell, if you can buy back LA, throw feral onto a goliath and bust those heads.

EDIT: wait wait, I just realized my build is illegal unless your DM is a fun-loving one. By gestalt rules, you can't have PrCs on both sides of the gestalt at the same level. Unless your DM disregards this rule (as mine does) my build won't work.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would like to point out wildshape ranger as something to consider. All the wildshape, none of the worldbreaking druid magic.

[Woodzyowl]

hmm... warlock won't provide the utility you need. how does something like conjurer 4/swordsage 1/JPM 10/Abjurant Champion 5//barbarian 1/totemist 3/warblade 1/bloodclaw master 5/totem rager 10 sound?

Sure, it's not all that much of a beast, but pick the right race and play into the totemist's natural attacks and you can get some turned heads. Hell, if you can buy back LA, throw feral onto a goliath and bust those heads.

Sounds pretty awesome. So I'm assuming that I'd pickup a bunch of desert wind for the fire and tiger claw for the twf support? Either way, I think you just made me like the idea more. After all, what is D&D without some fire being chucked around?

EDIT: Now that I look at it, that will be a problem. I have a very lenient DM, but I really don't want to annoy the other player, who follows all rules to a T.

[deuxhero]

Wizard/Wizard PRCs//Warblade 20

Done!

[Woodzyowl]

Wizard/Wizard PRCs//Warblade 20

Done!


But preferably NOT druid, because I'm in a 2-person party with someone who plays high t4/low t3, and therefore can't pull any wizard/druid/cleric shenanigans. Which are always tempting when playing one.

Noted suggestion.

[Morbis Meh]

I second the Wildshape Ranger//swordsage suggestion

[deuxhero]

Noted suggestion.

Warblade//Factotum then!

[Woodzyowl]

Warblade//Factotum then!

Maybe. I've seen the suggestions about wildshape ranger. the only problem I have with it is that it only gets small and medium wild shaping. Otherwise, It would be perfect.

[playswithfire]

Maybe. I've seen the suggestions about wildshape ranger. the only problem I have with it is that it only gets small and medium wild shaping. Otherwise, It would be perfect.

This is what the Master of Many forms prestige class is for.

Alternatively, Swordsage 5/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage X//Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior X

[kharmakazy]

Swordsage//warblade makes a good gestalt. D12 HD, all good saves, decent skill points, more manuevers than you can shake a stick at.

[Woodzyowl]

This is what the Master of Many forms prestige class is for.

Alternatively, Swordsage 5/Bloodclaw Master 2/Swordsage X//Barbarian 7/Bear Warrior X

I... didn't even think of master of many forms. I think a wildshape ranger may work. Maybe I could be a broodguard to pick up a rage and some other nifty stuff... Isn't there a feat that lets you stay in wild shape 24/7? If so, what book is it in?

[The Rabbler]

by level 10 you have enough wildshapes and wildshape lasts long enough that you can stay in a wildshape form or another all day long.

You know, I think I'd just go druid up one side of the gestalt. It gives you some wildshape progression and enough casting to keep your two-man-team safe from most harm.

how about something like druid 20//swordsage 5/master of many forms 7/master of the 9 5/uncanny trickster 3, using uncanny trickster to boost master of the nine's progression past level 5, giving you a ton of maneuvers? that build hits IL 16 (17 if you count uncanny trickster's progressions as 1.5 IL each)

I dropped Bloodclaw Master because you don't really need it with the wildshaping.

[Woodzyowl]

That would probably work too. I guess I'm just going to have to resist the temptation to go god-druid mode on him if I do that.

Anyways, thank you Playground for helping me with this. I think I have enough options/ideas now to make a pretty nice character with both flavor and power.

[The Rabbler]

That would probably work too. I guess I'm just going to have to resist the temptation to go god-druid mode on him if I do that.

Anyways, thank you Playground for helping me with this. I think I have enough options/ideas now to make a pretty nice character with both flavor and power.

you can always keep the god-druid tucked away until it becomes really really necessary to pull it out.

[dspeyer]

Wildshape ranger is generally weak because of the size restrictions (except as a base class for MoMF).

Have you considered lycanthropy? Werebears are classic. Werepteradons are perhaps a slight bit cheesy.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Changeling or Shifter, Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 3/ MoMF 2/ Nature's Warrior 3// (Unarmed) Swordsage 4/ Warshaper 1/ Swordsage 15; two flaws; Alertness (1), Track (B), Combat Reflexes (1), Adaptive Style (1), Power Attack (3), Endurance (B), Leap Attack (6), Frozen Wild Shape (9), Robilar's Gambit (12), Multiattack (15), Defensive Sweep (18). Note that four total Warshaper levels are taken, at the 5th and 13th-15th character levels. Nature's Warrior Armaments: Water's Flow and Wings of the Hurricane, the last five levels of the build should be arranged to allow you to take Defensive Sweep. Ranger spells prepared: Rhino's Rush; get a pile of 1st level Pearls of Power.

Magic Items: Armor/Mantle of the Beast (CC), Armbands of Might with Wilding Clasp, Gloves of Dex with Wilding Clasp, 1st level Pearls of Power.

Wild Shape Form: Cave Troll (MM3, 9 HD Large Giant); Cryohydra (MM via Frozen Wild Shape, requires Huge size via MoMF 6); War Troll (MM3, 12 HD Large Monstrous Humanoid). At MoMF 7 you get those forms' extraordinary special qualities (all of each of those creatures' special qualities are extraordinary, yes even that one, yep that one too, yes I said all of them check the FAQ). With Robilar's Gambit in Cryohydra form you'll be able to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Cave/War Troll forms are for places where the huge size hydra form just won't fit, plus they have some superb attacks and defenses.

[Essence_of_War]

Dex-based Psychic Warrior//Swordsage has nice Wis overlap and will get you a plethora of useful feats. If you don't want extra feats, Ardent works great also!

You can use shadow blade to get dex to melee damage, and the Saint-Template, if allowed to go on one side of the gestalt, can get you wis to AC again, as well as other sick benefits if you'd like.

You can use some combination of dimension slide, dimension hop, linked power, and hustle to move around the battlefield at will, landing boosted full attacks or powerful std action strikes.

[Woodzyowl]

by level 10 you have enough wildshapes and wildshape lasts long enough that you can stay in a wildshape form or another all day long.

You know, I think I'd just go druid up one side of the gestalt. It gives you some wildshape progression and enough casting to keep your two-man-team safe from most harm.

how about something like druid 20//swordsage 5/master of many forms 7/master of the 9 5/uncanny trickster 3, using uncanny trickster to boost master of the nine's progression past level 5, giving you a ton of maneuvers? that build hits IL 16 (17 if you count uncanny trickster's progressions as 1.5 IL each)


I'm probably going to do this one, if not just for the sheer versatility of the druid spells. And for the ability to go god druid if the need be.


Changeling or Shifter, Wildshape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ Warshaper 3/ MoMF 2/ Nature's Warrior 3// (Unarmed) Swordsage 4/ Warshaper 1/ Swordsage 15; two flaws; Alertness (1), Track (B), Combat Reflexes (1), Adaptive Style (1), Power Attack (3), Endurance (B), Leap Attack (6), Frozen Wild Shape (9), Robilar's Gambit (12), Multiattack (15), Defensive Sweep (18). Note that four total Warshaper levels are taken, at the 5th and 13th-15th character levels. Nature's Warrior Armaments: Water's Flow and Wings of the Hurricane, the last five levels of the build should be arranged to allow you to take Defensive Sweep. Ranger spells prepared: Rhino's Rush; get a pile of 1st level Pearls of Power.

Magic Items: Armor/Mantle of the Beast (CC), Armbands of Might with Wilding Clasp, Gloves of Dex with Wilding Clasp, 1st level Pearls of Power.

Wild Shape Form: Cave Troll (MM3, 9 HD Large Giant); Cryohydra (MM via Frozen Wild Shape, requires Huge size via MoMF 6); War Troll (MM3, 12 HD Large Monstrous Humanoid). At MoMF 7 you get those forms' extraordinary special qualities (all of each of those creatures' special qualities are extraordinary, yes even that one, yep that one too, yes I said all of them check the FAQ). With Robilar's Gambit in Cryohydra form you'll be able to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Cave/War Troll forms are for places where the huge size hydra form just won't fit, plus they have some superb attacks and defenses.

Great idea, I'll totally use it for a different game when we have a primary spellcaster or two.


Dex-based Psychic Warrior//Swordsage has nice Wis overlap and will get you a plethora of useful feats. If you don't want extra feats, Ardent works great also!

You can use shadow blade to get dex to melee damage, and the Saint-Template, if allowed to go on one side of the gestalt, can get you wis to AC again, as well as other sick benefits if you'd like.

You can use some combination of dimension slide, dimension hop, linked power, and hustle to move around the battlefield at will, landing boosted full attacks or powerful std action strikes.

It's beautiful in it's simplicity, but I'd need to take expanded knowledge to get metamorphosis to get anywhere close to being a beast. Yet again, something I'll use in a game when we have a primary spellcaster.

[Essence_of_War]

It's beautiful in it's simplicity, but I'd need to take expanded knowledge to get metamorphosis to get anywhere close to being a beast. Yet again, something I'll use in a game when we have a primary spellcaster.

Fair enough :smallsmile: