A few Bard questions.

[QuidEst]

All right, so I'll be playing a Core-only Bard when fall rolls 'round. Why a Bard? Because I've got an existing character that translates beautifully into it. I'm mostly interested in the roleplaying, but I feel it's rude (and a bit lazy) to not put a decent amount of work into being a legitimately useful character. I'm still giving fluff priority, though.

Quick background on the character: Two personalities, Comedy and Tragedy. They are (if believed) the embodiment of theatrical tradition. Chaotic Neutral human, played straight (the alignment isn't just an excuse to get away with wanton destruction in a Good-aligned party or anything.) Comedy is big on the chaos bit, loving to joke, sing, mess with people, and insult them. Tragedy is cool, meditative, cryptic, and a bit terrifying when she wants to be, although she tends to simply be poetically philosophical. They dress in black clothes and wear a dark grey cloak and a white theater mask. Comedy focuses on persuasive and particularly comedic spells (Hideous Laughter, Charm Person, etc.), Tragedy prefers depressing and creepy spells (Crushing Despair, Cause Fear, and I'm going to try and sneak Bone Fiddle in- Blindness/Deafness failing that.), and they both use illusory spells.

I'm going to be straight-classing as much as possible, since caster levels and the like are fun. That said, there are a lot of cross-class skills and shared skills in Rogue. If I dip a level into it, do I get the x4 bonus skill points? And is it better (I realize it could be entirely subjective) to take it off the bat and delay getting those third-level spells by a level, or should I wait until after I've got some bard abilities and spells?

I'm also curious about what weapon to use. Rapier is all right, but it doesn't fit them all that well, beyond practice with stage fighting. They don't have great Dex, although it's a bit better than their strength. Quarterstaff fits the flavor better, but it doesn't seem like it would be useful without the strength bonus to get over the penalties, even with the two handed fighting feat. Or does it become worth-while once my base attack bonus is high enough? Scythe is cool and all, but feels… excessive. XP Maybe if I ever hit level 15, I'll consider them boss enough to pull it off. Whip is a joke… Sickle, maybe? Anyways, if a rapier is the best option, it's theatrical enough for me. (I'll probably give them a sap- refluffed as a slapstick for Comedy?)

The other question is what I should do with my feats. Definitely getting Leadership when it comes up, but otherwise it seems like it'll be skill focuses or stuff like "Persuasive" that amount to about the same thing. (Again, this is Core-only, so I don't have any exotic Bard-friendly feats to play around with.)

Thanks in advance!

EDIT: No, I don't intend to make a melee bard at all. I am aware of the sheer folly of a Core-only melee bard. XP It is just a question of what weapon to have on hand to stall with.

[MrRigger]

I've never played a Bard, so I'm not likely to be much help there, but I know the x4 skill points only happens at character level 1, not your first level in any class.

MrRigger

[Zaq]

OK, even in Core, you can almost always do better than Skill Focus. Any idea what your stats will be? If your STR is halfway decent, tripping with a whip can actually be a lot of fun.

Why the Core-only limit? Is it an intentional attempt to simplify, or is it a lack of missing books? (Basically, I'm asking if stuff that's available online is on the table.)

What level will you be starting at? That makes a big difference.

[PollyOliver]

For rogue--you only get the x4 at your first character level, not every time you dip a new class. Rogue doesn't give you all that much.

Why not whip, exactly? Your job in core is not going to be stabbing things anyway (a bard can do this, but it generally requires non-core feats, spells, and/or items to do well), so it's not like the lack of damage is a huge deal. You can trip and disarm from 15 feet away, and comedy should like that. It could be spun as a manifestation of tragedy easily enough as well.

[Saintheart]

Knowing what books you have would be best, but assuming a very restrictive set of texts I think you'd be best served sticking with rapier and taking Weapon Finesse if you're that determined to enter combat and you've got a semi-decent DEX score.

Frankly this is not what a bard should be doing, especially at low levels -- the bard's most important and scaleable ability to a party is Inspire Courage, which to deliver sufficiently requires both your hands so you can use a masterwork instrument.

Combat bards only reach their full(er) combat potential after you've got Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn, Slippers of Battledancing, Psychoactive Skin of Ectoplasmic Armour, and the harmonising enchantment on a Crystal Echoblade. On RAW a Crystal Echoblade has to be a longsword. Most of this stuff is only going to be available around the mid levels or so; Slippers of Battledancing alone will set you back a good 30 grand or so, they're for much further down the track.

One thought for low level cheeriness in combat is the Sudden Stunning weapon quality from PHB II, which only costs you +2,000 gp on a weapon (not a +1 bonus) and which keys off your primary stat: Charisma. The ability is similar to Stunning Fist and is magic for combat bards. You basically take the Monk and turn him into a sword.

But like I said, at low levels you are much better served staying out of comabt if you can. If you have a decent range of books available, the Inspire Courage ability can be hilariously scaled at low levels -- think +5 to attack and damage at level 7, and that's without going to the Book of Exalted Deeds and its Words of Creation.

[MrRigger]

Saintheart, the OP said core-only. I can see including SRD material in core-only, but Frostburn (despite being one of my favorite books) is certainly not core. You're right though, Snowflake Wardance can be a lot of fun.

MrRigger

[Saintheart]

All the more reason for the OP not going into the combat bard line :smallwink:

[QuidEst]

For rogue--you only get the x4 at your first character level, not every time you dip a new class. Rogue doesn't give you all that much.
Okay, good to know.


OK, even in Core, you can almost always do better than Skill Focus. Any idea what your stats will be? If your STR is halfway decent, tripping with a whip can actually be a lot of fun.

Strength is going to be a bit of a dump. For character reasons, I'm not doing an all-out dump on Wisdom. Comedy's wisdom score on it's own would be pretty rotten, but Tragedy's would be excellent. Between the two, I feel like it should be at least passing. I don't know if we're rolling or doing point buy, but I'm aiming for maxed out charisma and high-bonus intelligence. As far as I understand it, it's fairly important to give constitution some love, so I was going to give that third place, and leave the rest to duke it out for the scraps. Thoughts there would be great.


Why not whip, exactly? Your job in core is not going to be stabbing things anyway (a bard can do this, but it generally requires non-core feats, spells, and/or items to do well), so it's not like the lack of damage is a huge deal. You can trip and disarm from 15 feet away, and comedy should like that. It could be spun as a manifestation of tragedy easily enough as well.
Okay… as mentioned, strength is going to be fairly low. It would certainly be fun if there's a way to pull it off decently, and the flavor is good for them. Any suggestions? If it's necessary to make wisdom a full dump stat, Comedy's out most of the time anyway, so I suppose I could do it in clear conscience. XP Bards get great will saves, anyhow.


Why the Core-only limit? Is it an intentional attempt to simplify, or is it a lack of missing books? (Basically, I'm asking if stuff that's available online is on the table.)
I'm not sure, actually. I asked what books we were using, and the DM said Player's Handbook. I would presume the SRD material is fine. Whether or not other stuff WotC has put up is fair game, I don't know. I'm certainly going to try and get Bone Fiddle in as a substitute for Blindness/Deafness, which I think is more overpowered and nowhere near as awesome.

I figured there was something better than skill focus. One of the goals is to do decently on Intimidate checks. Charisma helps, of course, but Tragedy ought to be able to pull some fairly unsettling acting when called on to do so.


What level will you be starting at? That makes a big difference.
We're starting at level one, but the DM mentioned giving bonus experience to move some of the early levels along quicker. Dunno to what extent, but I'm treating it as getting to at least level three pretty quickly. Never really played before, though, so I wouldn't know.

To clarify in general- I'm not planning on making a combat bard of any sort. Going in without any self defense is asking for trouble, though. There's some possibility I'll end up the party's only arcane caster, although it's all still up in the air.

[Saintheart]

Well, if it's really down to PHB and/or SRD about the only thing I can think of to increase Inspire Courage is a Masterwork Lute, since that boosts you by +1 IIRC but also takes up both your hands. Most of the other stuff is off the SRD. For weaponry I'd beg, borrow or steal a PHB II to get Sudden Stunning for your weaponry if you can, though -- it really is that good for self-defence, or at least allows for some breathing space since all that's required to kick the effect in is a hit, not damage.

In terms of character-themed stuff, Intimidate isn't very easy at low levels to optimise outside of core. You could play up Diplomancy :) by philosophising "Laugh and the world laughs with you?"

[QuidEst]

Well, if it's really down to PHB and/or SRD about the only thing I can think of to increase Inspire Courage is a Masterwork Lute, since that boosts you by +1 IIRC but also takes up both your hands.
Actually (and here's where roleplaying gets in the way of some basic optimization), Com and Traj aren't getting ranks in any instruments. They're sharing Perform(Act), and I've gotten permission to treat Comedy's ranks in Perform(Sing) as Perform(Oratory) for Tragedy, since there's really no difference.


In terms of character-themed stuff, Intimidate isn't very easy at low levels to optimise outside of core. You could play up Diplomancy :) by philosophising "Laugh and the world laughs with you?"
Oh yes, Diplomacy and Bluff are being used and abused. Comedy will fast talk or sweet talk anybody she can manage, and is looking forward to having a system that supports rewriting somebody's entire perception of the world if you can roll well.
They don't have to have to be great at Intimidate right off, but I'd like to be able to have Tragedy pull it off later on. Is there any substitute mechanic, though? It doesn't necessarily have to be intimidation, as she actually favors depressing them. (Crushing Despair, of course, but spells are a bit scarce as a Bard, and skills should be used where it's possible.)


Most of the other stuff is off the SRD. For weaponry I'd beg, borrow or steal a PHB II to get Sudden Stunning for your weaponry if you can, though -- it really is that good for self-defence, or at least allows for some breathing space since all that's required to kick the effect in is a hit, not damage.
Well, I certainly hope it doesn't come up too often. We've got plenty of bruisers and tanks, so Com and Traj may end up getting Wizard treatment in terms of protection. XP I'll keep it in mind! I'm just looking at how I can either reduce the likelihood of critical failure if I do get into such a situation or look cool enough to make up for it.

[Amnestic]

Well, if it's really down to PHB and/or SRD about the only thing I can think of to increase Inspire Courage is a Masterwork Lute, since that boosts you by +1 IIRC but also takes up both your hands. Most of the other stuff is off the SRD. For weaponry I'd beg, borrow or steal a PHB II to get Sudden Stunning for your weaponry if you can, though -- it really is that good for self-defence, or at least allows for some breathing space since all that's required to kick the effect in is a hit, not damage.

In terms of character-themed stuff, Intimidate isn't very easy at low levels to optimise outside of core. You could play up Diplomancy :) by philosophising "Laugh and the world laughs with you?"

Special Masterwork Instrument bonuses (such as the one you mentioned) are Complete Adventurer rules. Those in the PHB simply offer a +2 on perform checks.

[QuidEst]

Special Masterwork Instrument bonuses (such as the one you mentioned) are Complete Adventurer rules. Those in the PHB simply offer a +2 on perform checks.
All right, that makes more sense. I'd seen the +2 on perform checks. I was wondering if that translated into a bonus somehow.

[ericgrau]

Whip is perhaps the best weapon option since you can disarm and trip at range. But if you're not focusing strength anyway, then your weapon probably shouldn't be your main focus. Focus and area debuffs, status effect buffs, and any kind of battlefield control you can manage because these spells are good even at the lower bard level. Your full caster level makes crafting magic items an option. Try to use your +X buffs and songs before the fight begins rather than during, when possible. Since you have a lot of skills you can tumble to help the rogue flank, get stealth to scout, get lots of knowledges, bluff, diplomacy, etc. Invisibility and silence mesh well with scouting roles, plus you can cast silence near enemy casters. Weapon damage is an okay backup option but don't expect to do much.

[Zaq]

Alchemical items can be a lot of fun. You'd be amazed what a difference a simple tanglefoot bag can make. At low levels, alchemical items are a fantastic backup combat option for pretty much anyone who didn't dump DEX. They're more easily affordable at 2nd or 3rd than at 1st, but they're still worth investigating.

[Socratov]

how are you going to pull off the schitzofrenia? are you using two almsot identical character sheets, with random (or timed) personality switches (not to be chosen by you)? Or willsaves to stay in a given personality?

actaually, this has given me an idea for a character...

[Ceaon]

Nitpick: having multiple personalities isn't schizophrenia, it's usually a symptom of a dissociative disorder (most often dissociative identity disorder).

On topic: don't focus on melee, you'll be rubbish at it whether you take the best or worst weapon. I'd take a whip for fluff reasons, with a backup sap or something. A sling could work as well. A bard's powers, in core, are inspire courage, knowledge, skills, and spells. If you have these covered, you'll perform (haha pun) well enough.

[Feytalist]

Sounds like a great idea. And yes, tanglefoot bags for the Comedy character will fit very well. Perhaps thunderstones for Tragedy, for that dramatic entrance/exit/random moment?

Also, I officially endorse the use of a scythe. Not for combat, but for style.

[QuidEst]

how are you going to pull off the schitzofrenia? are you using two almsot identical character sheets, with random (or timed) personality switches (not to be chosen by you)? Or willsaves to stay in a given personality?

actaually, this has given me an idea for a character...
Nope, the two personalities or entities (depending again on whether you believe them) get along remarkably well, and essentially tag team. They have the same character sheet, and, with the exception of the Sing/Oratory switch, identical skills. So it's all fluff, with Tragedy casting Crushing Despair and Comedy casting Hideous Laughter.


Nitpick: having multiple personalities isn't schizophrenia, it's usually a symptom of a dissociative disorder (most often dissociative identity disorder).
Yep! I did a report on that a while back, so I'm familiar with some of the very basic stuff. Of course, in a fantasy setting, it's much more likely that if a character has multiple personalities, it falls under "A wizard did it." XP


Sounds like a great idea. And yes, tanglefoot bags for the Comedy character will fit very well. Perhaps thunderstones for Tragedy, for that dramatic entrance/exit/random moment?

Also, I officially endorse the use of a scythe. Not for combat, but for style.
Thanks, yeah. Tanglefoot bag is definitely up Com's alley. The thunderstones probably are as well… I'm pretty sure she'd also chase foxes around trying to get them to evolve.

As for the scythe, like I said- you can't give one of those to a low-level character. You need some serious arcane or ninja-esque skills to back up one of those. Otherwise somebody legitimately crazy-awesome will beat you up and take it. XD


don't focus on melee, you'll be rubbish at it whether you take the best or worst weapon. I'd take a whip for fluff reasons, with a backup sap or something. A sling could work as well. A bard's powers, in core, are inspire courage, knowledge, skills, and spells. If you have these covered, you'll perform (haha pun) well enough.
All right, sounds good. I was ruling out the whip as simply not being helpful enough, based on the comments I'd heard about it in general. (And yes, the perform joke has crossed my posts a few times. XP)

By the way, anybody else find it ridiculous that you can get a crystal whip? I mean, by definition of what a crystal is, it's about the worst thing you can make a whip out of. I dunno, maybe they're just woven into the leather… I suppose it makes as much sense as a throwing whip.

Anyways, to do damage, I might see about giving it some kind of enhancement. Fire or cold fit best fluff-wise, I suppose, and electrical actually has an excuse to do damage even when the whip doesn't.

(Almost forgot… my friend thinks I should try to get the DM to let Comedy use this homebrew weapon (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Mace_of_Kobold_Golfing_(3.5e_Equipment)). XP I'll probably pass, since playing a roleplay-centered bard involves enough whining at the DM on bluffing and diplomacy as-is.)

[Socratov]

Nitpick: having multiple personalities isn't schizophrenia, it's usually a symptom of a dissociative disorder (most often dissociative identity disorder).

On topic: don't focus on melee, you'll be rubbish at it whether you take the best or worst weapon. I'd take a whip for fluff reasons, with a backup sap or something. A sling could work as well. A bard's powers, in core, are inspire courage, knowledge, skills, and spells. If you have these covered, you'll perform (haha pun) well enough.

ok, didn't know that.. but still, hwo will you translate this into the game?

[QuidEst]

ok, didn't know that.. but still, hwo will you translate this into the game?
For the purpose of mechanics, you can treat it as how you described if you want. Dissociative Identity Disorder is just how you refer to it out-of-game if you want to use the official term or look information up on Google. In-game, psychology and terms like "schizophrenia" or "dissociative identity disorder" haven't even been invented, so you can call it whatever you think they'd call it.

Personally, I don't care much for having two opposing personalities flipping out randomly. It's one of those things where you start to wonder why the party has them around, at least in extreme cases. I'd recommend considering what the different options are, keeping in mind that you don't need opposite alignments. :)

[Proven_Paradox]

As others have said, don't worry too much about your weapon choice. In core, no matter what you do with your Bard, you're going to be pretty much rubbish at melee. I recommend you pick up a shortbow and just stay out of the melee.

Core doesn't give Bardic music much love, so I'd suggest your feats focus on your spellcasting. Spell Focus, Metamagic, Spell Penetration, and the like. If you manage to get a decent dexterity score, perhaps pick up Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Your Inspire Courage bonuses last for 5 rounds after you stop playing, so you can activate it for one round and let the aftereffects keep it going so you are free to cast. (This could work in character too; the Inspiration can be a quick joke from Comedy or a deep quip from Tragedy.) Rely on your spells to debuff enemies or strengthen allies. Bard gets access to a lot of good spells, and given what you've got in mind for your spell list already I think you have a good idea for which spells are good and which are not. Spend your feats and resources on improving those.

[QuidEst]

All right, rough spell list- subject to change. This is what I'm aiming for by level 8 or so.

Cantrips:
Mage Hand
Prestidigitation
Ghost Sound
Read Magic
Detect Magic
Lullaby/Light/Repair/Summon Instrument (one of those, at any rate)

1st:
Charm Person
Disguise Self
Hideous Laughter
Silent Image

2nd:
Alter Self
Blindness/Deafness (this is a fairly extreme spell in my opinion- I'll be trying to get Bone Fiddle instead)
Scare/Detect Thoughts
Glitterdust (if a wand of some Cure spell can be obtained)

3rd:
Haste
Glibness
Crushing Despair

I know there are plenty of good spells that aren't on there, but I'm again going for a compromise. Suggestions are still welcome, of course, particularly in deciding which of multiple spells to go with. Some (Grease, Cure Moderate Wounds) are there because they're practical, while others (Scare, Detect Thoughts, etc.) are there because Tragedy needs more spells, or because they fit Comedy well. Yes, I realize Grease fits Comedy as well, but not so much as the other stuff. She would genuinely enjoy Unseen Servant.

[PollyOliver]

Glitterdust as a level 2 is fantastic but I guess optional (if you have another caster), but haste is IMO as close to required as a spell can be. I would consider silent image, and I would consider summon instrument even though you don't use one, as it comes in hand surprisingly often.

Edit: you don't need suggestion, you can do that with bardic music.

[QuidEst]

Glitterdust as a level 2 is fantastic but I guess optional (if you have another caster), but haste is IMO as close to required as a spell can be. I would consider silent image, and I would consider summon instrument even though you don't use one, as it comes in hand surprisingly often.

Edit: you don't need suggestion, you can do that with bardic music.
All right- can I still use the bardic music Suggestion outside of combat? That would require Comedy singing, I suppose. Good point.

I really hate to change the third-level spells, since they're the ones that fit best. I suppose I could pass on Lesser Geas and get Charm Monster at level 10 (I was looking forward to Geas-ing the shopkeepers to get a discount, but Charm Person will have to do).

First level, I'm fine switching out the bottom options for Silent Image.

(Spell list updated.)

[PollyOliver]

To use bardic music suggestion, you have to first fascinate, which offers a second save if you do something threatening. But even the spell suggestion is way better out of combat than in, because it has to be a suggestion that sounds reasonable to the creature, and can't seem harmful to it. "Put down your weapon and talk it out," probably doesn't sound very reasonable if you guys are all pointing weapons at it, so whether suggestion would be useful in combat is basically totally up to your DM.

On haste--if there are a couple people who use attacks of any kind in your party, you want this. Badly. And fast-forward motion can be pretty funny.

I would take another look at grease and glitterdust, as long as you don't think they would be overpowering in your group. They really are fantastic (and who doesn't think confetti is funny?)

[Keld Denar]

Fear and Confusion are both 3rd level spells for Bards, which is pretty awesome. While good, neither is as epic as Haste is. Haste is a true force multiplier.

Also, Glitterdust is generally a better debuff than Blindness/Deafness is. Sure, B/D is permanent, but GENERALLY it only has to last until you kill/disable the foe. Glitterdust affects multiple foes, targets will saves (which tend to be lower than fort, especially on big foes), and has the side effect of making invisibile foes visible. The Deafness part of B/D is nearly worthless, since Deafness is only 20% chance to miscast spells while Blindness is the inability to cast ANY targeted spells and 50% miss chance on spells with attack rolls. The only spells that aren't inhibited by blindness are AoEs. In nearly all cases, Glitterdust is better than B/D.

[QuidEst]

To use bardic music suggestion, you have to first fascinate, which offers a second save if you do something threatening. But even the spell suggestion is way better out of combat than in, because it has to be a suggestion that sounds reasonable to the creature, and can't seem harmful to it. "Put down your weapon and talk it out," probably doesn't sound very reasonable if you guys are all pointing weapons at it, so whether suggestion would be useful in combat is basically totally up to your DM.

On haste--if there are a couple people who use attacks of any kind in your party, you want this. Badly. And fast-forward motion can be pretty funny.

I would take another look at grease and glitterdust, as long as you don't think they would be overpowering in your group. They really are fantastic (and who doesn't think confetti is funny?)
XP Okay, on Haste, "Yakkety Sax", "Flight of the Bumblebee", and "William Tell Overture" are all great justification.

I'm not too worried about overpowering. I want to give Tragedy either Detect Thoughts (handy for being unsettling, impersonating, etc.) or Scare (she ought to be able to do it, although the HD limit is a pain.) So the question is whether Glitterdust beats out Cure Moderate Wounds. It would be nice to have an on-hand healing option, of course, but mass effects are also useful.


Also, Glitterdust is generally a better debuff than Blindness/Deafness is. Sure, B/D is permanent, but GENERALLY it only has to last until you kill/disable the foe. Glitterdust affects multiple foes, targets will saves (which tend to be lower than fort, especially on big foes), and has the side effect of making invisibile foes visible. The Deafness part of B/D is nearly worthless, since Deafness is only 20% chance to miscast spells while Blindness is the inability to cast ANY targeted spells and 50% miss chance on spells with attack rolls. The only spells that aren't inhibited by blindness are AoEs. In nearly all cases, Glitterdust is better than B/D.
Pure mechanics, this is true. The fact that Blindness/Deafness is permanent and be cast for either (or sequentially for both, effectively locking somebody out of combat altogether) provides a lot of options out of combat. It makes a darn good interrogation method, for one, and you can set up a scam casting it and having the party cleric remove it for a fee. I'm trying to switch it out for Bone Fiddle, though, which is just an awesome spell in terms of flavor. If I can get a wand with some cure spell, though, then I'll definitely throw Glitterdust into the mix.

[PollyOliver]

XP Okay, on Haste, "Yakkety Sax", "Flight of the Bumblebee", and "William Tell Overture" are all great justification.

I'm not too worried about overpowering. I want to give Tragedy either Detect Thoughts (handy for being unsettling, impersonating, etc.) or Scare (she ought to be able to do it, although the HD limit is a pain.) So the question is whether Glitterdust beats out Cure Moderate Wounds. It would be nice to have an on-hand healing option, of course, but mass effects are also useful.

Your most efficient healing option in core if you can swing it will be to use a wand of cure light wounds and not waste a spell known on it. But it depends on how much control you have over both your starting material and of what items you'll come across later.

[QuidEst]

Your most efficient healing option in core if you can swing it will be to use a wand of cure light wounds and not waste a spell known on it. But it depends on how much control you have over both your starting material and of what items you'll come across later.
Thanks for the suggestion- I'll definitely see about that. Since we have a Cleric, I doubt it will be seen as changing the balance at all. Gotta make use of the Use Magic Device option somehow, hmm?

[PollyOliver]

Thanks for the suggestion- I'll definitely see about that. Since we have a Cleric, I doubt it will be seen as changing the balance at all. Gotta make use of the Use Magic Device option somehow, hmm?

You don't need UMD for it; it's your list, even if you don't take it.

[QuidEst]

You don't need UMD for it; it's your list, even if you don't take it.
Really? What does UMD get used on, then? 0_o

[Keld Denar]

Cleric spells that AREN'T on your spell list (like Lesser Vigor, or Divine Powah!). Also Wizard spells that aren't on your spell list (like Ray of Enfeeblement, the ultimate inequitity inducer at 1st level). Also, Druid spells (Entangle says SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!). Highly versatile if you can get ahold of it.

[QuidEst]

Cleric spells that AREN'T on your spell list (like Lesser Vigor, or Divine Powah!). Also Wizard spells that aren't on your spell list (like Ray of Enfeeblement, the ultimate inequitity inducer at 1st level). Also, Druid spells (Entangle says SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP!). Highly versatile if you can get ahold of it.
Okay, I get it. That makes sense. Hence rogues putting lots of ranks into it- no spell list at all. It's good to know that I don't have to pump it like my hit points depend on it, though.

Anyways, based on the rough spell list provided, any suggestions one what feats to go with? Spell focus doesn't seem terribly useful, since casting a higher level spell increases the DC by the same amount. I haven't gotten to play yet, though, so I don't know.

[kardar233]

Get a Masterwork Bag of Assorted Props, so you can get circumstance bonuses to Acting/Oratory by pulling a skull or the like out of the bag.

"Alas, poor Halaster. I knew him, Elminster, a fellow of infinite magical power, of most exquisite madness."

[Keld Denar]

Well, the problem with core only bards is that there really aren't a lot of feat options for them. Improved Initiative is generally a good idea, since going first means you can get your mojo on before your foes have a chance to spread out or gang up on you.

Spell Focus is actually good in core only. You don't have a lot of other options, and spellcasting is your strongest feature. Yea, casting a higher level spell gives you a higher DC, but you only have so many spells/day, sometimes you HAVE to cast lower levels. Also, Spell Focus makes your highest level spells have a DC higher than the DCs you could normally get. Since most Bardic spells are bianary in nature (they work or they don't, very few partial effects), making your foes fail is even more important.

The advantage of a bard is that 80% of your spells with saves come from 2 schools: Enchantment and Illusion. You really couldn't go wrong in a core-only environment by taking one or both, or taking one and Greater Focus with that one.

[QuidEst]

Well, the problem with core only bards is that there really aren't a lot of feat options for them. Improved Initiative is generally a good idea, since going first means you can get your mojo on before your foes have a chance to spread out or gang up on you.

Spell Focus is actually good in core only. You don't have a lot of other options, and spellcasting is your strongest feature. Yea, casting a higher level spell gives you a higher DC, but you only have so many spells/day, sometimes you HAVE to cast lower levels. Also, Spell Focus makes your highest level spells have a DC higher than the DCs you could normally get. Since most Bardic spells are bianary in nature (they work or they don't, very few partial effects), making your foes fail is even more important.

The advantage of a bard is that 80% of your spells with saves come from 2 schools: Enchantment and Illusion. You really couldn't go wrong in a core-only environment by taking one or both, or taking one and Greater Focus with that one.
Oh, there we go! Sorry, I hadn't looked at Spell Focus and I somehow thought it was a +1 metamagic feat, which would've had very little point. Okay, yeah, I can see that being a much more useful thing to have around. XP

All right. Obviously, Leadership, one of the decent bones Bards did get. I was planning on including Persuasive and Negotiator in there at some point as well.


Get a Masterwork Bag of Assorted Props, so you can get circumstance bonuses to Acting/Oratory by pulling a skull or the like out of the bag.
Are you sure that's Core? I couldn't find it in the SRD. If it is, could you link me?

[Amnestic]

Are you sure that's Core? I couldn't find it in the SRD. If it is, could you link me?

I believe he's just talking about Masterwork Tools (which are SRD) which you can then refluff however you want.

[PollyOliver]

Tool, Masterwork
This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

50 gp. Or, if you want to cover all your bases with your DM, price it as a masterwork musical instrument instead (100 gp).

[Nightblade]

Great first level spell for Comedy - Grease. Grease on the ground? Banana peel. Grease on someone's weapon? Classic whoops. Grease on the ground that gets lit on fire (not RAW, but certainly plausible)? A bit of both Tragedy and Comedy :smallbiggrin:

You could also try Combat Expertise for a feat (to increase your AC in a pinch) followed by Improved Trip. Leadership is a natural choice for Bards and can have a funny in-game reason. A Parishioner who follows your character and prays for deliverance from your "madness", looking after your party while at it. If allowed, you could refrain from taking any Cure spells and you have a second character to roleplay shenanigans with.

[QuidEst]

Great first level spell for Comedy - Grease. Grease on the ground? Banana peel. Grease on someone's weapon? Classic whoops. Grease on the ground that gets lit on fire (not RAW, but certainly plausible)? A bit of both Tragedy and Comedy :smallbiggrin:

You could also try Combat Expertise for a feat (to increase your AC in a pinch) followed by Improved Trip. Leadership is a natural choice for Bards and can have a funny in-game reason. A Parishioner who follows your character and prays for deliverance from your "madness", looking after your party while at it. If allowed, you could refrain from taking any Cure spells and you have a second character to roleplay shenanigans with.
Yes, I know. I've thought about Grease. It's such a common spell, though, and it doesn't work nearly as well as the other spells for them. Tragedy dislikes resorting to inelegant violence as a rule. And as much as Comedy loves simple pratfalls, elaborate pranks or deceptions are more to her taste. Anybody can make somebody trip, but getting away with insulting a king to his face is much more impressive. If I ever get to high enough levels to start picking up more spells, sure, it'll be on there, but it's not much of a priority

I like the idea of an in-game reason for it. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be trying to cure their madness, though. If somebody tried, Tragedy would deliver a very impressive speech on the inherent impossibility of any sanity existing in a world made up of actors and extras.

As for Improved Trip, it seems like that only helps out if you're making an unarmed trip attempt, such as without a whip. Better to just use the whip and get the range, no?


I believe he's just talking about Masterwork Tools (which are SRD) which you can then refluff however you want.
Oh, I see. Great! That's just the sort of thing they could use, since they'll be using a lot of skill checks. :D

[PollyOliver]

Improved trip also gives you a +4 on the check. But it does take 2 feats.

[Feytalist]

Improved trip also gives you a +4 on the check. But it does take 2 feats.

Sure, but the focus of the character won't be on combat anyway. Blowing two feats on that seems like a waste. Much better, I think, to play to the character's strengths, such as spellcasting or simple roleplay.

[PollyOliver]

Sure, but the focus of the character won't be on combat anyway. Blowing two feats on that seems like a waste. Much better, I think, to play to the character's strengths, such as spellcasting or simple roleplay.

Yeah, I agree that in core only and with a poor strength score, neither melee nor tripping are the way to go (though if you've got nothing else to do after starting your music and laying down a spell or two, sometimes you might as well give tripping a try). I was just pointing out that it does give a benefit to armed tripping as well--but it costs two feats, which is a lot if you're not planning to focus on it.

[Captain Caveman]

I would really recommend looking into Complete Adventurer if you are going straight bard for feats. For example if you would like to conserve skill points by not having to dump them into multiple perform skills get Versatile performer (prereq 5 ranks perform) which allows you to treat an additional amount of performs equal to int mod minimum of 1 as if they had as many ranks as your highest ranked perform skill. Other feats include Iron skin chant (bardic music gives party DR 5/-) or Disguise spell which let's you mask casting a spell as part of a performance.
Also it has been my typical experience anytime playing with a bard that in any combat the bard freeloads off us, but when diplomacy an bluffing need to happen the entire party free loads off the bard.

[QuidEst]

I would really recommend looking into Complete Adventurer if you are going straight bard for feats. For example if you would like to conserve skill points by not having to dump them into multiple perform skills get Versatile performer (prereq 5 ranks perform) which allows you to treat an additional amount of performs equal to int mod minimum of 1 as if they had as many ranks as your highest ranked perform skill. Other feats include Iron skin chant (bardic music gives party DR 5/-) or Disguise spell which let's you mask casting a spell as part of a performance.
Also it has been my typical experience anytime playing with a bard that in any combat the bard freeloads off us, but when diplomacy an bluffing need to happen the entire party free loads off the bard.
Again, Core only. XP Based on the Versatile performer alone, I would indeed be tempted to see about it, but I don't think I'll have access.

Yeah, I figure it'll work out rather like that. I'll certainly try to lend a hand in combat- I don't think we'll have much other casting power- and I figure that there's always an inherent risk trusting Diplomacy entirely to Comedy. She makes a point of not being afraid to insult anybody.

[Keld Denar]

Actually, core only bards aren't terribad at disarming. A Whip gives a +2 bonus just by virtue of being a whip. When you are pulling your opponent's weapon away, put your other hand on the whip when you pull (its a 1handed weapon, which the rules state that you can use both hands on) for another +4 bonus. If you have Weapon Finesse, you can use Dex instead of Str on your Disarm check, since it is a form of attack roll. Finally, Inspire Courage (your best song) boosts attack and damage rolls. The boost to attack rolls pretty much keeps up with your lost BAB from having 3/4 BAB.

An 8th level bard has a BAB of +6
Dex20 after gear (+5)
+4 for 2handed
+2 for being a whip
+2 for Inspire Courage

thats a +19 on your opposed check. Not too shabby. Plus, if you fail and get counterdisarmed, you are only out your whip. Its a bummer, but its not gonna hurt you too bad considering you were primarily just holding the whip to disarm anway. You don't provoke an AoO as long as you are whipping someone from outside of their threatened range (which, with 15' reach isn't hard).

Best part is? 0 investment in the above. The whip is nearly free, Dex is a stat you'll likely have anyway (along with Weapon Finesse, since there isn't much better in Core only), and the rest is your normal bardic schtick or properties inherant in the disarming rules. If you REALLY wanted, Combat Expertese + Improved Disarm will give you another +4, but probably isn't worth it given that the trick is rather circumstantial.

Another fun thing to do is to carry a net or 2. Nets require Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but only require a touch attack to hit. Even with the -4 penalty for not being proficient, you should be able to hit most touch ACs easily. The Entangled condition sucks (-4 Dex, -2 attack rolls), and nets are rather hard to remove, especially when there are 3 guys standing over the foe with swords. Again, its not a tactic you'll use every fight, and probably never more than once per fight, but its a fun weapon to have in your arsonal.

[QuidEst]

Thanks! Dex might not actually end up quite as high as it normally would for Bards, but it'll hopefully be decent. Realistically, if it's core-only, I'll probably end up with some spare feats to spend. Whips certainly work as well as rapiers flavor-wise, so it should be pretty good. And if I have a few good dexterity options, strength can be more of a dump stat.