How come Elan almost never casts bard spells

[Lombard]

I'm not going to go over every strip to count them but having read them all it does seem like Elan almost never casts any bard spells. I know he's cast a couple here and there and bards don't get all the greatest spells but still, they do get their fair share so what's up. Did he forget to level? Or tend to wander off when the DM was handing out XP? Did he take only the crappiest most useless spells? Does he secretly owe his good looks to a hidden Piercing of Charisma +4? THIS RIDDLE MUST BE SOLVED

[Hawk7915]

It's Elan? In any given situation, ask yourself "what is the most powerful/efficient/useful thing a Bard could do in this situation", then expect Elan to do the complete opposite 9 times out of 10.

Also, yes, we know Elan has largely taken silly spells ("Summon Plot Exposition") and illusions (_______ Image line, Disguise Self) as his spells known.

[GSFB]

He can't just cast spells any old time. He can only cast them when it's funny.

[Treblain]

Why didn't X do Y in strip Z? My friend, there are some things in this world only our Lord and Savior Banjo understands.

[Whiffet]

Because he's Elan. He's still learning how to be useful.

[Funkyn]

Right now he's only moderately competent - Maybe once he gets relatively competent, he'll start using them. So basically he'll probably never use them :smalltongue:

[Gift Jeraff]

There was actually a thread just like this not too long ago, and when people started linking more strips with Elan casting spells, even the OP was surprised. IIRC, it was something like 20~ times, which is pretty decent considering he's not even in half the strips.

Also, Elan is the most genre-savvy of the OOTS. He knows they're supposed to be incompetent, especially him.

[Zevox]

Did he take only the crappiest most useless spells?
Probable. Aside from his most recent acquisitions (Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Neutralize Poison) the only spells we know of from him are a couple of illusions and some low-level spells of very limited use (animate rope, lesser confusion, a couple of cantrips). Since he made a point of noting that he was actually going to put thought into his spell selection from now on when we found out about him picking up those high-level spells, I'm guessing he didn't put much thought into it before.

Plus there's always the fact that Elan is rather dim. Even if he had useful spells for certain situations, it's quite likely he'd completely overlook this and forget to use them.

Zevox

[factotum]

He uses illusions quite a lot if you check back through the strips. However, in any situation where both Durkon and V are present, why would Elan *need* to cast any spells? The other two will both have more powerful versions of anything he could do!

[NYCharlie212]

Elan casts quite a bit of spells. Just none of them were really extremely useful until the recent story arcs (mass cure light wound)

[ArcaneSaint]

Elan casts quite a bit of spells. Just none of them were really extremely useful until the recent story arcs (mass cure light wound)
He did cast Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), which was pretty useful, if we are to believe him. And if he didn't cast "Summon Plot Exposition", we wouldn't have known what the OotS was doing in Dorukan's dungeon.

[rangermania]

He did cast Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0400.html), which was pretty useful, if we are to believe him. And if he didn't cast "Summon Plot Exposition", we wouldn't have known what the OotS was doing in Dorukan's dungeon.

So usefull to himself and usefull to readers. That is even more expected usefullness from Elan. At this point we can even discuss if V's over powerfull spell usage was usefull enough really?

[137beth]

Why are we expecting him to make optimal decisions? V for the most part was a blaster wizard, which is nowhere near as powerful as enchantment/polymorphing wizards can do. Neutralize poison is probably the best spell he has right now, aside from the few times silent illusion has been helpful. Besides, if he used spells whenever it would be optimal, that would mean he'd have to "waste" spells on moments that are not dramatically appropriate.

[Hannibal]

... Have you read the webcomic Order of the Stick?

[Snails]

He can't just cast spells any old time. He can only cast them when it's funny.

I think we have a winner.

Until recently, as characters Elan and Belkar were so into their schtick, that they were hardly recognizable as "people". Just a pair of walking running jokes. [Pun intended.]

Elan could easily have been useful by simply casting random spells. But it would spoil the gag.

Elan has since outgrown the simple joke. Now it is in character to be both surprisingly effective and surprisingly ineffective, from moment to moment.

[Arrakeen]

He is Elan. And he is a bard. Probably he would be the most surprised one to have spells who work!

[Leolo]

It's the story. The characters are evolving in it, and Elan will have a happy end.

In the end Elan will be competent and a true hero. Until then, even if he does now cares about how usefull spells are (as shown after the orders reunion) we will not see many of them in practise, because this would ruin the final showdown where elan is proving that he has learned how to be a good bard.

[Yuki Akuma]

Probable. Aside from his most recent acquisitions (Greater Dispel Magic,

Elan took Greater Dispel Magic? Where?

[hamishspence]

He states he took it here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html

[Yuki Akuma]

Huh. I forgot all about that.

Wonder when that gun's gonna go off.

[Conuly]

Even if he had useful spells for certain situations, it's quite likely he'd completely overlook this and forget to use them.

Like that one time he made a useful illusion, not only did V have to tell him to do that, but V also had to coach him through the process step-by-step.

If he'd just think once in a while he'd be twice as smart! (Which isn't saying much, no, but still. Elan could use the help.)

[Klear]

He's making a useful illusion here, in the middle of combat, no less!

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0397.html

Edit: I always loved that panel and how it shows Elans newfound usefulness.

[Conuly]

I lounge corrected. That OTHER one time, at the battle of Azure City.

[dtilque]

There was actually a thread just like this not too long ago, and when people started linking more strips with Elan casting spells, even the OP was surprised. IIRC, it was something like 20~ times, which is pretty decent considering he's not even in half the strips.

I was the OP of that thread: Elan and casting spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201312)

And I was only moderately surprised at the results. 16 spells cast (not counting the Summon Plot Exposition, which was just a joke) over the course of almost 800 strips is roughly one in every 50 strips. Very rare, but not quite as rare as I thought.

BTW, he's moved beyond silent image, since the illusion he cast during the siege of Azure City was not silent.

[zimmerwald1915]

I was the OP of that thread: Elan and casting spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201312)

And I was only moderately surprised at the results. 16 spells cast (not counting the Summon Plot Exposition, which was just a joke) over the course of almost 800 strips is roughly one in every 50 strips. Very rare, but not quite as rare as I thought.

BTW, he's moved beyond silent image, since the illusion he cast during the siege of Azure City was not silent.
Neither was Illusory Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0597.html); both were probably Major Images.

[Yuki Akuma]

Yeah, Illusory Belkar was probably the spell Elan dismissed when Illusory Belkar went away.

:smallwink:

[Ramien]

He was at least partially effective with an illusion here:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0217.html

[Snails]

Elan actually has used illusions to good effect in more than a few places. But the Giant avoids having him cast at all, because it would have been contrary to "The Bards Are Useless" joke.

Elan has really outgrown that joke. He is now in a phase of life I would call "Bards Are Very Useful -- But Only While Annoying The Heck Out Of A Friend (Or A Foe)" phase.

[Keinnicht]

Probably because he either doesn't think of it or has more effective ways to do things. His levels in Dashing Swordsman probably make it so that just a plain old melee attack is more effective than a bard spell against enemies.

He could cast buffs on himself, but he probably didn't take them, and if he did, well, there's a lot of real-life D&D players who forget to cast buffs on themselves.

[Kibble Sage]

Because the poor chap's a real duffer. :smallbiggrin:

[Souhiro]

Well, I don't remember Elan inspiring greatness on his allies (Save perhaps in the very first strip) and that is one of the best things a bard can do, he only inspires competence and nothing else.

He is mostly the team mascot. He is only useful when is DRAMATICALLY necesary.

As I see the OotS, it is composed of:

Roy: Token Bald
Haley: Token Girl
Belkar: Token Evil
Vaarsuvius: Token Pink Haired
Durkon: Token Beard
Not Nale: Team Pet.

[martianmister]

Well, I don't remember Elan inspiring greatness on his allies (Save perhaps in the very first strip) and that is one of the best things a bard can do, he only inspires competence and nothing else.

It's really works! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)

[Souhiro]

Well, then, since Dorukan's, he didn't use it.

it's more outrageour when facing Xykon, Roy just say him "Do whatever you want, because you are mostly useless" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/oots0106.gif) and he just went fooling around.

[Gullintanni]

Well, I don't remember Elan inspiring greatness on his allies (Save perhaps in the very first strip) and that is one of the best things a bard can do, he only inspires competence and nothing else.

He is mostly the team mascot. He is only useful when is DRAMATICALLY necesary.

As I see the OotS, it is composed of:

Roy: Token Bald
Haley: Token Girl
Belkar: Token Evil
Vaarsuvius: Token Pink Haired
Durkon: Token Beard
Not Nale: Team Pet.


It's really works! (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)

That Inspire Courage he's using, btw :smallsmile:

[paladinofshojo]

Elan actually has used illusions to good effect in more than a few places. But the Giant avoids having him cast at all, because it would have been contrary to "The Bards Are Useless" joke.



I never understood that joke, since Bards are classified as Tier 3.....therefore mechanically, Elan should be the third most powerful PC (behind V and Durkon since both of their classes are Tier 1, Haley is a rogue and therefore Tier 4, so is Belkar as he is a Rogue/Barbarian, and Roy should be the weakest character since he's Tier 5)

[Caractacus]

Roy: Token Bald
Haley: Token Girl
Belkar: Token Evil
Vaarsuvius: Token Pink Haired
Durkon: Token Beard
Not Nale: Team Pet.

I can't begin to express how little I understand what this was supposed to mean... Is it a joke? I don't get it... :smallconfused:

[Tazar]

I'm not going to go over every strip to count them but having read them all it does seem like Elan almost never casts any bard spells. I know he's cast a couple here and there and bards don't get all the greatest spells but still, they do get their fair share so what's up. Did he forget to level? Or tend to wander off when the DM was handing out XP? Did he take only the crappiest most useless spells? Does he secretly owe his good looks to a hidden Piercing of Charisma +4? THIS RIDDLE MUST BE SOLVED

Because he's crap in a fight and a total moron.

[dtilque]

Haley is a rogue and therefore Tier 4, so is Belkar as he is a Rogue/Barbarian, and Roy should be the weakest character since he's Tier 5)

Nitpick: Belkar is a Ranger/Barbarian (cites: OotS0022 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0022.html) OotS0611 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html)) Admittedly, he's quite possibly the worst Ranger ever, but he's one nonetheless. Have no idea how Rangers place in these Tiers, but I think those are largely irrelevant to actual play and totally irrelevant to the OotS comic strip.

[Snails]

I never understood that joke, since Bards are classified as Tier 3.....therefore mechanically, Elan should be the third most powerful PC (behind V and Durkon since both of their classes are Tier 1, Haley is a rogue and therefore Tier 4, so is Belkar as he is a Rogue/Barbarian, and Roy should be the weakest character since he's Tier 5)

Because a Bard is not obviously the best at anything in particular himself, at least while on the inside of a dungeon. Thus the joke.

It was worse in 3.0, but it was still a bit of a problem in 3.5.

It depends on the size of the party. Bards are incredibly effective with larger parties, because many good bard buffs affect all allies and can be maintained for a long time. A bard in a 6 person party is okay. A bard in an 8+ person party is downright awesome.

Tiers are basically gibberish IMNSHO. I agree there are balance issues between spellcasters and non-spellcasters, but the Tier ratings are unenlightening about their practical nature. The underlying reasoning makes too many assumptions that may not apply to a particular campaign.

[Snails]

Another thing about Bards and Tiers...

Optimization wonks may like to know who more powerful at what, and are happy to pull together spreadsheets to "prove" their point.

But most players just want some fun. And a Fighter or Barbarian or Paladin or Rogue or Ranger, at least two or three of those look like obvious fun to typical players, and, best of all, without a lot of tedious pre-planning required.

A Fighter may look like a "sucker play" according to wonk's spreadsheet, but plenty of players are happy with their PC paying the consequences of jumping on the back of a dragon to swing away at a too powerful lich.

Bards do not look like fun to most players. (Nor do clerics.) It is not necessarily a flaw in the class design or power level of the class itself. It is a player gut reaction to a general character concept.

[martianmister]

I can't begin to express how little I understand what this was supposed to mean... Is it a joke? I don't get it... :smallconfused:

It's a satire of TvTropes...I think... :smallconfused: