Forgotten Realms Deities

[McQ]

I've heard that in the Forgotten Realms setting, the Pantheon were struck down (killed or made mortal). Could someone summarize how/why this occurred? And what these deities did within the world?

Reason being, I'm thinking of doing this within a campaign using Gods from the Core Pantheon, and others from the Complete Divine.

I planned to have some dead gods like Nerull still influencing things from outside the material plane; cults attempting to bring him back into the mortal realm.

I had an idea that WeeJas were split into three forms, one a red gem that acts like that green jewel in Heavy Metal, one a red headed little girl who raises dead unknowingly wherever she goes, and the last a powerful undead form of a female who amasses an army of dead. The cultists following are trying to bring all the pieces together to make her whole.

And lastly I had an idea of Pelor being a living deity actually walking the world like Cane(sp) in Kung Fu, his memory lost as to what he is though. His followers are tracking his miracles trying to reach him and remind him.

Those that know of the Gods are few, cultists and some small groups that kept the belief of a deity in tradition. The world largely worships the two polar opposite deities Elishar and Toldoth as the essences of good and evil.

What suggestions do you have for what happened to certain Gods? What are their followers doing? Maybe the followers are trying to steal their deities power, maybe revive them, maybe they don't know who they worship, maybe no one even knows the god exists.

[Safety Sword]

It was called the "Time of Troubles".

Google is your friend now :)

[agahii]

If you want to lessen your workload, an idea could be to have less gods than are statted out in the books, and instead have a small number who are more powerful(more domains) and go by several different names(people In Character wouldn't know this and consider the thought blaspheme).

This way you can have a bigger focus on a few cool situations that the gods are currently in, rather than like a hundred not so cool(or well focused) ones. Also you could have churches looking to restore the same deity by a different name and coming into conflict unwittingly.

[Saintheart]

As to how the setting handles dead gods, consult Lost Empires of Faerun. Deicide is a noble and continuing tradition in the Forgotten Realms. :smallwink:

[Yora]

Especially if you kill Mystra. I think she was killed 4 or 5 times by now.

It's not a proper cataclysm until Mystra is killed.:smallbiggrin:

[Feytalist]

The FR sourcebooks detail what happened to most of the major gods during the Time of Troubles. You can maybe use that as a base to determine what happens to the Core gods. Pelor being Lathanderish, Wee-Jas maybe Mystra/Savras? Ironically, Savras was trapped in a gem for a long time.

As to why, two evil gods stole a divine Mcguffin called the Tablets of Fate, so the overgod Ao (kind of the gods' god) banned them all to walk the earth in avatar form for a few years. And yes, many many died.

My personal favourite is Mask (god of thievery, thieves, shadows, misdirection and general sneakiness), whose avatar was a sword called Godsbane. The mortal Cyric used him to kill many many MANY gods, and eventually ascended himself.

And yes, Mystra, the god of magic, was killed AGAIN, and was reborn AGAIN.

[Alleran]

Especially if you kill Mystra. I think she was killed 4 or 5 times by now.

It's not a proper cataclysm until Mystra is killed.:smallbiggrin:
Three times.

She's also come back three times. Granted, the final time was as a vestige, but the seeds are there for her (inevitable) rebirth. Killing Mystra is like divine Whack-A-Mole.

Also, the Tablets of Fate were actually worthless. Kind of funny, when you think about it. They had the tasks of the each deity engraved upon them, but other than that they had no inherent power to them. They were just a reminder of what each god was supposed to do to maintain the Balance. Mighty artifacts created by an Overdeity, and they amounted to a glorified post-it note on the office doors of the gods.

[Feytalist]

Also, the Tablets of Fate were actually worthless. Kind of funny, when you think about it. They had the tasks of the each deity engraved upon them, but other than that they had no inherent power to them. They were just a reminder of what each god was supposed to do to maintain the Balance. Mighty artifacts created by an Overdeity, and they amounted to a glorified post-it note on the office doors of the gods.

I suppose it's kind of necessary, what with the gods stealing each others' portfolios left right and centre. So much so that Shar ended up with the portfolio of mists and swamps. Why? because she could, that's why.

[Darrin]

I've heard that in the Forgotten Realms setting, the Pantheon were struck down (killed or made mortal). Could someone summarize how/why this occurred? And what these deities did within the world?


In FR, that happens every Tuesday.

Tuesday *and* Thursday if they're relaunching a new edition.

[McQ]

It was called the "Time of Troubles".

Google is your friend now :)

Awesome, thanks! I had a feeling it actually had a title.

[McQ]

If you want to lessen your workload, an idea could be to have less gods than are statted out in the books, and instead have a small number who are more powerful(more domains) and go by several different names(people In Character wouldn't know this and consider the thought blaspheme).

This way you can have a bigger focus on a few cool situations that the gods are currently in, rather than like a hundred not so cool(or well focused) ones. Also you could have churches looking to restore the same deity by a different name and coming into conflict unwittingly.

I thought about doing this. At first I had a plan to have many Gods, but determined I should stick with fewer and just increase the Domains and give them a few different "aspects."

For instance, I was looking to find a water deity and the Faith and Pantheons as well as Stormwrack had a few. But I will probably just make an aspect of Obad Hai aquatic.

[McQ]

As to how the setting handles dead gods, consult Lost Empires of Faerun. Deicide is a noble and continuing tradition in the Forgotten Realms. :smallwink:

Thanks for the info. Is it a source book with adventure ideas or is this a novel?

[McQ]

Especially if you kill Mystra. I think she was killed 4 or 5 times by now.

It's not a proper cataclysm until Mystra is killed.:smallbiggrin:

I heard a lot about Mystra when the subject came up, I knew someone that talked a lot about the Time of Troubles. Something about Mystra the portfolio being killed and then a mortal taking Her place? Could you elaborate some? I like the idea of having a mortal being "escorted" by the party to become the portfolio of a new deity.

[McQ]

Three times.

She's also come back three times. Granted, the final time was as a vestige, but the seeds are there for her (inevitable) rebirth. Killing Mystra is like divine Whack-A-Mole.

Also, the Tablets of Fate were actually worthless. Kind of funny, when you think about it. They had the tasks of the each deity engraved upon them, but other than that they had no inherent power to them. They were just a reminder of what each god was supposed to do to maintain the Balance. Mighty artifacts created by an Overdeity, and they amounted to a glorified post-it note on the office doors of the gods.

This is the concept of the "Portfolios," right? That is why some gods were replaced by mortals because they personified the deity more?

[McQ]

I suppose it's kind of necessary, what with the gods stealing each others' portfolios left right and centre. So much so that Shar ended up with the portfolio of mists and swamps. Why? because she could, that's why.

I have the Faith and Pantheons Forgotten Realms book, and I can't seem to find a "Portfolio" list, this might be due to it being a static period in time? Do you know of a source for the portfolios?

[Akal Saris]

This is the concept of the "Portfolios," right? That is why some gods were replaced by mortals because they personified the deity more?

I think that might have been a 2nd edition concept, since it sounds very familiar - I haven't seen it come up in 3.5 or 4E.

[Saintheart]

Thanks for the info. Is it a source book with adventure ideas or is this a novel?

A source book. Lots of nice fluff material as well as some (over)powered options.

[Alleran]

I heard a lot about Mystra when the subject came up, I knew someone that talked a lot about the Time of Troubles. Something about Mystra the portfolio being killed and then a mortal taking Her place? Could you elaborate some? I like the idea of having a mortal being "escorted" by the party to become the portfolio of a new deity.
FR needs a Mystra and a Weave (well, just one of them, really, since Mystra is the Weave, quite literally) in order for magic to function properly. When the first Weave-embodiment (Mystryl) died in order to stop Karsus from damaging the entire world's mantle beyond repair (i.e. bringing about essentially the destruction of Realmspace entire), she reincarnated herself as Mystra.

This Mystra lasted until the Time of Troubles, when she made the mistake of fighting Helm (who had retained his godhood). Helm killed her.

Because the Weave will fray and collapse into raw magical chaos without a deity to continually govern and manage it, Ao raised Midnight, a mortal who had been invested with Mystra's power, to the mantle of Goddess of Magic. Then Cyric and Shar conspired to successfully kill her in what was one of the most stupid bits of setting fluff I've ever read, setting off the Sellplague. Which basically ripped Faerun apart, ruined magic, and left Mystra as a vestige. The door is still open for her to return, though (she was smart enough to put in place several methods by which she could reincarnate herself even if nigh-utterly destroyed).

It's hypothesised that because Faerun is such a monstrously high-magic world, in order to safely access raw magic the Weave (and other systems, including Table Magic, the Shadow Weave, and the magic of the Sha'ir in Al-Qadim) serves as a "buffer" between mortals and the raw power of the multiverse. Without the Weave, everything falls apart (see: Fall of Netheril, Sellplague), and mortal wizards could only access a mere fragment of the full power offered by magic without having their brains explode out their ears. So the magic they'd be using after the Sellplague would be remnants, shards of energy. Other crystal spheres don't have the same problem, because they have less magic and thus have little need of the buffering effect that is represented by the Weave.


This is the concept of the "Portfolios," right? That is why some gods were replaced by mortals because they personified the deity more?
Yes and no.

A portfolio is essentially an aspect of reality that a god is responsible for, represents and maintains. The portfolio of magic is held by Mystra. The portfolio of, say, rebirth and renewal, on the other hand, is held by Lathander. Oghma has knowledge, Kelemvor has death, and so on. They embody these concepts. In game, this is also represented by cleric domains.

As to gods being replaced, it doesn't quite work like that. After the Time of Troubles, the gods who had held certain portfolios (specifically Myrkul, Bane, Torm, Bhaal, Moander and Mystra) were dead. Because that leaves a massive gap in the Balance, Ao raised mortals who had gained that power to godhood. Midnight replaced Mystra (and became the new Mystra). Cyric replaced Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul (and was eventually stripped of his Death portfolio by Kelemvor, and of Bane's portfolios by Bane's rebirth). Torm was resurrected by Ao because he died in fulfillment of his duties as a keeper of the Balance (i.e. acted as his portfolio required him to). Moander, well, that's an odd one. Most of the remains of Moander's power and portfolio is currently trapped by a work of elven high magic in a ruined city in the Dalelands. What Moander had left (his divinity) was taken from him when Finder Wyvernspur killed him and, with Tymora's backing (and Ao's approval), became a god himself.

They weren't replaced because mortals embodied their concepts more. Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul were replaced because they were acting outside the Balance that they were supposed to be maintaining, so Ao left their energies dispersed. Some aspect of them all did survive, of course (Bane was reborn through Iyachtu Xvim, Bhaal had the Bhaalspawn, and Myrkul's sentience lives on inside the Crown of Horns), but their divine energies were largely dispersed.

[KingofMadCows]

The spellplague was such an idiotic idea. They should have just made the evil ending to Mask of the Betrayer canon and have the new disaster be about the Spirit Eater coming back with an army to devour the gods.

[Feytalist]

I have the Faith and Pantheons Forgotten Realms book, and I can't seem to find a "Portfolio" list, this might be due to it being a static period in time? Do you know of a source for the portfolios?

Huh, I'm almost certain it's still called portfolios. It's the list of their duties/domains/responsibilities in each deity's info block.

It's worth noting that Midnight, Cyric and Kelemvor were all three mortals during the Time of Troubles and even adventured together according to the books. They all attained divine status at the end, due to various circumstances and/or Deus Ex Machina. Or maybe just Deus, in this case. </horrible puns>

Also, Mystra was killed during the Time of Troubles, because in her Avatar form she could not successfully manage the Weave, and, it being her responsibility, tried to stop it from unraveling altogether. Helm, the only deity allowed to retain his divine status as a kind of "guard" to divinity, killed her when she tried to force her way back to her divine status. Him being the god of guards, watchers, and generally a stuck-up crankypants.

[Honest Tiefling]

Portfolios are called such and still used in 3rd edition IIRC.

It should also be noted that Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal all rose to godhood because a deity just gave them the portfolios for kicks and giggles. Torm was I think a mortal given divine status by Tyr? Tyr and a few others (Not Talona, but Oghma and Tyche) might have come from other world, and are called interloper deities. Finder Wyvernspur was possibly granted divinity by Tymora.

The other pantheons (Elven, Dwarven, Mulhorandi, Utheric) also appeared. As they are different pantheons, their portfolios sometimes overlap. It should also be noted that the 'Faerunian' pantheon tends to be a mishmash of several different groups (mostly human) and interloper deities. There is also cases of deities hopping pantheons, such as Sharess and Hoar becoming Faerunian gods, and possibly Mielikki and Lurue in 2nd edition being both human and elven gods. I mention this because the core pantheon might start overlapping with other gods, either creating a power vacuum a god or a mortal could fill, making it a race against time.

I might be getting off topic, but Sharess has an interesting history that your Wee Jas sorta reminded me of. Sharess started off as Bast, defeated a god of the hunt and absorbed him, (I'm pretty sure it was a him), then when her friend Zandilar was in trouble she absorbed her too. Then she fell under the sway of Shar for a short while. Might be an idea of inspiration, as Sharess still runs around as Zandilar and Bast at times. Also, with taking on the power of Zandilar, the goddess of passion and dance, Sharess became less of a goddess of war and more of a goddess of Yarr Yarr Hump Hump.

[McQ]

Thanks everybody for the info, it has been exceptionally helpful :)

It's given me an idea of how a world might work when the deities are "gone"
But I'm interested in keeping the list of the pantheon small, so I'll be using the Core Pantheon with a few others tossed in (specifically the Complete Divine's list of deities) and I'd like to do something like the Time of Troubles with them.

A few deities have been altered due to the world's culture changes, but this is what I have as an idea thus far.

Bahamut: Avatar is a mechanical dragon in the gnomish homeland.
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Gnomish pilots pray for favorable weather and winds, referring to a source of great breath. Droids of Flame left on the gnomish homeland have developed faith, believing in a benevolent mechanical being.
Boccob: Avatar is a magical beast traversing the world and planes?
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Magical beasts and mages believe magical energy exist in all things and that emanate from and revert back to.
Corellon Larethian: Avatar is a ghost?
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Enslaved elves of the Ash island pray for freedom and restoration of life. Prayer is forbidden to the servant classes, so it is practiced secretly, and even when memories are erased, the spirit manages to live on.
Ehlonna: Avatar is a magical animal or plant?
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: The Isle of Wood praises a "mother of the forests" that encompass all life of plant and animal. Witches of the North on the Isle of Salt pray to an "earth mother" that comprises the nature within their swamps.
Erythnuul: Avatar is a weapon, monstrous humanoid or beast?
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Murderers and mercenaries that love carnage and slaugher worship the "lord of the battlefield" who demands blood, claims life, and favors those that succumb to chaos and brutality.
Fharlanghn: Avatar is a magical beast that travels the planes.
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Halfling travellers explore the whole world, they leave tokens at shrines dedicated to the spirit of traversing the unknown.
Garl Glittergold: Avatar is trapped in mechanical heart.
Restoration:
Faith Remnants: Gnomish mechanics see the world and purpose as a mechanism, their lives being the components, and fate as the divine engineers intervention.


I have these left to cover
Gruumsh:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Heironeous:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Hextor:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Kord:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Lolth:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Moradin:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Nerull:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Obad-Hai:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Olidammara:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Pelor:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
St. Cuthbert:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Tiamat:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Vecna:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Wee Jas:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:
Yondalla:
Restoration:
Faith Remnants:

The idea is that no one necessarily knows the God by name or even as a particular entity, but they still pray to faint aspects of the Gods "portfolio." I'd like to start with simply ideas of what the deities would be if they weren't a god; an object, a humanoid, a beast, maybe beyond that? And then a group that has "contact" to the God's divine essence and would likely be "called" to restore the God.

[Alleran]

Also, Mystra was killed during the Time of Troubles, because in her Avatar form she could not successfully manage the Weave, and, it being her responsibility, tried to stop it from unraveling altogether.
The Time of Troubles was a special case. While Mystra wasn't actively a deity, all her Chosen (and Azuth) were functioning as "anchors" for the Weave (one of their jobs - they serve as a backup power source and anchoring point to stabilise the Weave in the event that Mystra is somehow incapacitated, until she can be returned to her station and function). Azuth dropped everything and refused to even take on an avatar, so devoted was he to keeping the Weave at least marginally functional. So while Mystra was ripped from her full divine status, magic didn't fall apart. Barely.


There is also cases of deities hopping pantheons, such as Sharess and Hoar becoming Faerunian gods
As I recall, Ed Greenwood invented Sharess, so she's not really an interloper per se.

[Yora]

No, she's Bast from the mulhorand pantheon, but she joined the mainstream deities.

Hoar is from Unther, as is Tiamat.

[herrhauptmann]

Thanks for the info. Is it a source book with adventure ideas or is this a novel?
For Time of Troubles Novels titled Tantras, Waterdeep, Shadowdale. See Also Prince of Lies and Crucible:Trial of Cyric the Mad. (And Shadow of the Avatar Trilogy. Which sucks ding-dong.)

I have the Faith and Pantheons Forgotten Realms book, and I can't seem to find a "Portfolio" list, this might be due to it being a static period in time? Do you know of a source for the portfolios?
Portfolios are still listed next to their names in the big chart. But most players just focus on Domains. At least in the 3.0 FRCS. Not sure off the top of my head if the 4E FRCS has a similar listing.

The spellplague was such an idiotic idea. They should have just made the evil ending to Mask of the Betrayer canon and have the new disaster be about
Can't use Mask for that, he was killed off in the Shadow War trilogy by Paul S Kemp. Which was shortly before the Spellplague.

I'm really thinking the OP was referring to the shift to 4E where they gutted the pantheon. Many lesser deities ended up just being aspects of already well known greater deities. Other gods got murdered, some eaten by demons.

[Marnath]

Can't use Mask for that, he was killed off in the Shadow War trilogy by Paul S Kemp. Which was shortly before the Spellplague.


Mask of the Betrayer, not Mask. It's the first expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2? If you've never played it, one of the evil endings is you become this soul eater incarnated thing so powerful that even Kelemvor can't challenge you inside his own divine realm. :smalleek:

You go on to completely wreck the material plane until it gets to the point where all the gods ban together(I think even like, Bane and Cyric help?) to corner you and kill you. You get away after killing a few of them.

[hamishspence]

Hoar is from Unther, as is Tiamat.

There's a bit of a gray area here- in Dragons of Faerun it mentions that Tiamat (and Bahamut) existed as part of the Faerunian pantheons before the Untheri were brought to Faerun by the Imaskari Empire.

After that, Bahamut became known as the Untheri deity Marduk, and Tiamat was revered as an Untheri deity. They fought, "killed" each other, and were reduced in status (to archfiend and celestial paragon level respectively).

They didn't regain power till much later. I think Tiamat had returned to demigod status by the Time of Troubles, and eventually achieved lesser deity status.

So did Bahamut, after Gareth Dragonsbane's activities.

[herrhauptmann]

Mask of the Betrayer, not Mask. It's the first expansion for Neverwinter Nights 2? If you've never played it

Nope, bought NWN 2 right when it came out. Unfortunately, the computer I had bought shortly before that had some compatibility issues with the game I was never able to resolve, even if it was a Windows XP machine with more than high enough ratings for processors and stuff.
Nor could I justify buying ANOTHER computer just to play 1 game. Especially with an 80+ hour week at work.
Never buy a computer from ibuypower.com. They suck, so bad.

[Marnath]

Nope, bought NWN 2 right when it came out. Unfortunately, the computer I had bought shortly before that had some compatibility issues with the game I was never able to resolve, even if it was a Windows XP machine with more than high enough ratings for processors and stuff.
Nor could I justify buying ANOTHER computer just to play 1 game. Especially with an 80+ hour week at work.
Never buy a computer from ibuypower.com. They suck, so bad.

Wasn't your computer. That game was poorly made, but it was great if you got it to run.:smalltongue: