D&D wizards are stupid

[pinballchico]

Quick backstory...lvl.6/7 party gets drained back to lvl. 1 (fits with the plot so we can only be so angry.) Everything is taken from us except for our highly magical weapons...and point buy attributes. So, over all, we're not too bad off for "another" lvl1 campaign.

However, after one session (In which we have reverted to the classic murderous hobos(amazing what poverty can do to ya')) it has become clear that as the party wizard I've got the REAL short end of the stick.

My spell book was taken and, while I've finally got a new one, It has no spells in it. All spells must be bought as scrolls or copied from a book with the standard 100g per page. also the Spellcraft roll has to be made to copy them, and with lvl. one skill points and a once/lvl chance of learning any spell....well...one bad roll really screws up the next four weeks of gaming.

So, a regular lvl. 1 wizard has acces to all cantrips and 2 lvl 1 spells of there choosing...I'm at NO cantrips and whatever spells the DM throws my way that I can afford.

REALLY.....Cosmic Phenomenal Power and you don't have ANYTHING memorized?????? Have to read it ALL from a book!!??

Either help make this make sense to me...or........

Help me mount an argument to my DM that at least the cantrips are commited to memory and don't need to be sought out (we're playing splat..so there are alot of them I've never even looked at...but I'm fine with just core being memorized)

Help me out playground...or I'm gonna be a huge money and time drain on my party for quite a while.

Love ya.

[Yora]

When the other players are allowed their magic weapons, you should also have access to your spellbook.

[Drglenn]

get your character killed (make sure the party keeps the stuff you had) and come back as a new wizard: no excuse for the DM to deny you your spells then.
Also its 3+int mod level 1 spells you start with

[One Step Two]

When the other players are allowed their magic weapons, you should also have access to your spellbook.

Seconded. And regardless of whatever remarks he may make to you keeping your original spellbook, you can't use any of the spells above your level anyway. Otherwise, demand compensation for the cost of your spells in your spellbook so you can get replacement scrolls. This is a very very lacklustre alternative however.

[Longcat]

It's not the D&D wizards that are stupid, it's your DM who's stupid.

Letting the other keep their gear while taking away yours sure sounds like the way to go. Point that out to your DM.

[Leon]

A Spellbook is not the same a magic weapon.

Yes its a annoyance but you should have had a backup, since you didn't well your going to have to rebuild your spell collection and this time you'll most likely put safeguards in place to have access to spells rather than putting all of your reliance in one book.

[Talakeal]

Yes it is very odd that the rest of the party kept their weapons but you lost your spellbook. However, I don't think I would give up on either the wizard class of your DM based on that alone.

[Telonius]

By the rules, Wizards can prepare Read Magic from memory. Other than that, if the DM wants to take away your spellbook, he'll take away your spellbook. Easiest in-game way to fix this is to kill another level-1 wizard and take his spellbook. It might take some time, but you have a slightly less than 50/50 chance of successfully copying a cantrip if you've maxed out Spellcraft and don't have a charisma penalty. If you're a specialist, you can take 10 and have an automatic success on the spells in your school (assuming the DM lets you take 10). It'll take a few days, but you'll have all your specialized school plus 50% of the other cantrips copied. When you level up, you can put another rank in Spellcraft, and take 10 to get the rest of them.

[pinballchico]

I kept my own Magic weapon as well. I was on my way to Gishing. But My weapon has little use until I multiclass again. So it will eventually be very usefull...as of now it just ups my initiative, which would be great if I had anything to do at the top of the order except run away.

[pinballchico]

ByIf you're a specialist, you can take 10 and have an automatic success on the spells in your school (assuming the DM lets you take 10)..

Does that only work for cantrips or can it be used for lvl. 1 spells as well?

[CTrees]

Perhaps point out that if you were a sorceror, you'd be vastly better off?

That's about all I got, because... wizards should always backup their spellbooks. ALWAYS. At least with basic utility, some stuff to get you started.

The other alternative (if you can't trade your weapon for your spellbook in a minor retcon) is, as above, get yourself killed, have the party collect your gear, and come back with a fresh wizard with a new spellbook.

[Pyro_Azer]

A Spellbook is not the same a magic weapon.

Yes its a annoyance but you should have had a backup, since you didn't well your going to have to rebuild your spell collection and this time you'll most likely put safeguards in place to have access to spells rather than putting all of your reliance in one book.

I'm not sure a backup would have helped here. If the DM took all of the parties gear (except weapons) then he could have easily taken any backups the OP might have had. For all we know, this could have already happened.

[olentu]

Does that only work for cantrips or can it be used for lvl. 1 spells as well?

DC 15 + spell level as I recall so DC 16 for a first level spell. Say you can take 10 so 10 + 4 ranks and so you just need to make up another 2 somewhere. You can probably get that from your int bonus.

Of course given that just scribing all the cantrips is going to take, I think, about a month depending on how many books you can pull from and that is just cantrips. I would try and talk this over with the DM since 40 some odd days of the party sitting and doing nothing while you spend a bunch of gold is a bit bothersome.

[ericgrau]

Relax, and hunt down one good spell. I know from a metagame POV it seems unfair but it makes sense considering the party lost everything. Convince the party that chipping in 125 gp for sleep will be beneficial to the group as a whole. That should be enough to get you going.

As said you can still prepare read magic. That will be very helpful for whatever you find. Eventually you may want to try the feat spell mastery to keep this from happening again. Not now, but after you gain several levels I mean. More importantly make sure you hide backup spellbooks in several unusual places and/or with people you trust once you get high enough level to afford so many.

[CTrees]

I'm not sure a backup would have helped here. If the DM took all of the parties gear (except weapons) then he could have easily taken any backups the OP might have had. For all we know, this could have already happened.

A basic backup should, ideally, be kept somewhere safe and well away from whatever dungeon the party is in. Stoneshaped into the wall of a castle, whatever. If something fifty miles away from where the party has been hit magically disappears... that stretches credibility.

[lesser_minion]

The entire D&D magic system is based on the assumption that a spell is more than just a scrap of knowledge. A spellbook is needed to prepare a spell not for the knowledge it contains, but because it plays an active role in the process -- it's not unlike how focuses are needed to cast certain spells, in fact.

Also, the rules are a little nicer than you think they are.

Once a wizard learns a spell, he knows it forever -- he can't prepare the spell without a spellbook, but he still knows how it works.

If you know a spell and you have a spellbook that you can read that describes it, then you can prepare it. Once it's prepared, you're free to copy it into your spellbook -- you don't need to make a spellcraft check to learn a spell you already know.

Paradoxically, you do have to make a check to learn a spell that you already know if you want to copy that spell from a scroll. I'm not sure how that's supposed to make sense, but there you go.

[Dalek-K]

See this is why you always take the feat that allows a Wizard to prepare a spell from memory (I'm looking up the feat right now).

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial

This is a Wizard's best friend :)

And the great thing is... 100% Core :D

Now that you are level one again... But kept your Int mod... This feat should be extra fricken awesome for you :)

[ericgrau]

@lesser_minion: He still can't write it down though, and still needs time to interpret the same spell from another book. He might as well not know it.

[Killer Angel]

A basic backup should, ideally, be kept somewhere safe and well away from whatever dungeon the party is in. Stoneshaped into the wall of a castle, whatever. If something fifty miles away from where the party has been hit magically disappears... that stretches credibility.

Everything is taken from them, except for their magical weapons.
Credibility's already beaten to death.


It's not the D&D wizards that are stupid, it's your DM who's stupid.

+1

[Innis Cabal]

A Spellbook is not the same a magic weapon.

Yes its a annoyance but you should have had a backup, since you didn't well your going to have to rebuild your spell collection and this time you'll most likely put safeguards in place to have access to spells rather than putting all of your reliance in one book.

This. Frankly (other than the DM not knowing the rules for how many spells you get at first level) it's a viable method of taking out the Wizards power, one of which many on this forum and elsewhere forget when bringing up how unbalanced the wizard is.

[ericgrau]

Right so the way to rebalance the wizard is to make him a commoner... Down that path lies only madness.

I missed the part where they still kept their magic weapons. That's a bit nuts. Temporarily losing everything to some evil would have been more reasonable. Then I'd be saying "suck it up, you'll get regeared soon."

If you find another spellbook you can make spellcraft checks to prepare spells from it until you get the money to make copies.

[olentu]

This. Frankly (other than the DM not knowing the rules for how many spells you get at first level) it's a viable method of taking out the Wizards power, one of which many on this forum and elsewhere forget when bringing up how unbalanced the wizard is.

Ok so somewhat nonsensical choices in looting aside with all the talk of backup spellbooks I doubt people have forgotten anything of the sort. Not to mention that this is just an inconvenience for one level.


However now that I think about it something that comes to mind is did everyone have an equivalently valued weapon.

[lesser_minion]

@lesser_minion: He still can't write it down though, and still needs time to interpret the same spell from another book. He might as well not know it.

It's not ideal, sure, but it's still something, and it helps to justify the position the rules take as well.

[Undercroft]

Isn't there a rule where wizards can use another wizard's spellbook to prepare their spells from. I think there were some checks involved to decipher and get used to it though, but i'm pretty sure its in the rules somewhere.

Then you just have your group go off and quietly murder a lvl 1 wizard and use his book (make sure to cross his name off of the cover and write yours in its place in crayon)

[edit]
Right just found the section in the PHB (mines an old 3.0 version, page 155. I figure it uses the same ruling in a 3.5 book). It says you can prepare a spell out of a "borrowed" (maybe looting is a form of borrowing?) spellbook.
First you have to dechiper the book (DC 20+spell level spellcraft. Can make a check once per day).
You also need to have the spell in your own spellbook (it doesn't say you need your book with you, just that the spell must also be in your book).
You then do a DC 15+spell level spellcraft check to prepare the spell.

Go off and murder a lowbie wizard and steal his book. it'll be a bit iffy at first until you can safely take 10 on the assorted spellcraft checks though.

[faceroll]

As DM, I recently, and accidentally, destroyed the spellbook of his 7th level mage. He got stuck in an Acid Fog and lost everything.

[Gullintanni]

Not as useful immediately, but if you can make it to second or third level with only a handful of spells, Reserve Feats might help take the sting out of the loss.

[FMArthur]

This. Frankly (other than the DM not knowing the rules for how many spells you get at first level) it's a viable method of taking out the Wizards power, one of which many on this forum and elsewhere forget when bringing up how unbalanced the wizard is.

So the wizard is utterly rigged until you decide to make him utterly useless. What an incredibly fun kind of balance that is.

[Psyren]

get your character killed (make sure the party keeps the stuff you had) and come back as a sorcerer/psion

FTFY :smalltongue: Clearly this DM has it in for wizards, so giving him more fodder seems unwise.


This. Frankly (other than the DM not knowing the rules for how many spells you get at first level) it's a viable method of taking out the Wizards power, one of which many on this forum and elsewhere forget when bringing up how unbalanced the wizard is.

Ah, so you balance the wizard by not letting him be a wizard. Brilliant!

[faceroll]

Ah, so you balance the wizard by not letting him be a wizard. Brilliant!

Not exactly. You force the wizard to spend his resources on multiple copies of spells rather than spending his resources on acquiring all the spells.

Copying spells into a spellbook is time consuming and expensive!

[Vizzerdrix]

Always tattoo key spells on your body. Then if the DM wants them, he has to rip yer skin off. :smallamused:

In fact, don't bother with a spellbook (or get one and fill it with exploding runes), go all tattoos, and use yer party members as extra pages too!

[Titanium Fox]

Not exactly. You force the wizard to spend his resources on multiple copies of spells rather than spending his resources on acquiring all the spells.

Copying spells into a spellbook is time consuming and expensive!

And this gimps the wizard, calling him out specifically for his class.

[Herabec]

Does your character have any of his old spells still memorized?

If he does, you can simply write those down in your new spellbook without needing any form of skillcheck, and then go on toward gaining your higher level spells back.

It's not much, but in that situation, every little bit helps.

[faceroll]

And this gimps the wizard, calling him out specifically for his class.

So.......?

[Titanium Fox]

So.......?

That's a major sign of bad DMing. If you can't handle the power difference between the Wizard and the rest of the party, talk to the player who wants the wizard OOC and tell him you don't want a Wizard in the party.

People are generally willing to work with a new DM to make things easier for him. If the DM clears something however and just gimps the **** out of it without warning the players, why did you even allow it in the game in the first place?

[nihil8r]

so you got level drained to 1 from 7 with no spellbook and didn't just quit the game? :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

That's a major sign of bad DMing. If you can't handle the power difference between the Wizard and the rest of the party, talk to the player who wants the wizard OOC and tell him you don't want a Wizard in the party.

People are generally willing to work with a new DM to make things easier for him. If the DM clears something however and just gimps the **** out of it without warning the players, why did you even allow it in the game in the first place?

Pretty much this.

If you didn't want a wizard, saying "sure you can be a wizard!" then later going "lol nospells4u" is a classic d!ck move.

[faceroll]

That's a major sign of bad DMing. If you can't handle the power difference between the Wizard and the rest of the party, talk to the player who wants the wizard OOC and tell him you don't want a Wizard in the party.

People are generally willing to work with a new DM to make things easier for him. If the DM clears something however and just gimps the **** out of it without warning the players, why did you even allow it in the game in the first place?


Pretty much this.

If you didn't want a wizard, saying "sure you can be a wizard!" then later going "lol nospells4u" is a classic d!ck move.

Look at this straw everywhere. What a mess!

[Tavar]

It's not a strawman if it's the argument you're actually presenting....

[Amnestic]

Eidetic Spellcaster ACF (Dragon #357) trades out your spellbook, your Scribe Scroll feat and your familiar to retain all spells in your memory. You still prepare, learn and cast them as normal (paying gold for special incense to learn new spells instead of special inks), but you don't need any sort of spellbook. Suppose then you just need to watch out for Mindrape spells.

[Titanium Fox]

Look at this straw everywhere. What a mess!

If you believe this is a Strawman Argument, please. Inform us of what we're missing here rather than leaving it at that?

[Volthawk]

Eidetic Spellcaster ACF (Dragon #357) trades out your spellbook, your Scribe Scroll feat and your familiar to retain all spells in your memory. You still prepare, learn and cast them as normal (paying gold for special incense to learn new spells instead of special inks), but you don't need any sort of spellbook. Suppose then you just need to watch out for Mindrape spells.

Eh, if you get Mindraped, you're screwed, spells in your head or no spells in your head.

[SuperFerret]

Isn't the necessity for a spellbook part of the balancing factors of the wizard class? It's pretty much there to be occasionally be stolen, destroyed, taken away, etc.

It is kind of unfair that the rest of the party has their magic weapons, but them's the breaks. Finding a new spellbook is a good adventure hook anyway.

[McSmack]

So your wizard is not going to be an effective spellcaster for a couple of sessions (now he'll know how rogues feel every time there's undead or constructs:smalltongue:). He'll have to resort to using a crossbow or something or ineffectually trying to hit things until he gets some money and/or spellbooks with actual spells in them.

That sucks but it's hardly gamebreaking, it's a minor setback. One that will probably be remedied with some good roleplaying and a few sessions of play.

I'd would shy away from calling it a "d!ck move". I'd reserve that status for something like telling someone they can play a wizard and them using nothing but anti-magic zones or golems for the entire campaign.

It's like saying that sundering the fighter's weapon is a hallmark of a horrible DM because, hey, that fighter had weapon focus AND weapon specialization and it was a masterwork weapon.

The DM gave the same restrictions to everyone. Everyone went back to level 1 and only got to keep their weapon. The DM probably didn't even realize that it meant the wizard would be significantly less useful for the next few sessions.

Shoot he can just sell his magic weapon, buy some scrolls or a used spellbook and then buy the weapon back later when he wants to gish.

And actually since he was planning to gish out anyway he might consider just taking whatever martial classes he was gishing with now instead of later. Then by the time he's ready to be all wizardy again he'll have had the resources and the time to rebuild his spellbook.

[Veyr]

That sucks
Why should he be spending his free time playing a game if it sucks?

[The-Mage-King]

You could try killing a low level wizard and trying to master his spellbook. DC for it's just 25+ highest level spell, but you get to use it without a check for each spell. 'course, if you fail, you'll need to wait a level (and spellcraft rank) before you try again. (Complete Arcane, page 140, for reference)

[SuperFerret]

Why should he be spending his free time playing a game if it sucks?

Sucks for the character.

[Veyr]

"I get to sit here and plink things with crossbows while everyone else actually does meaningful things, yay."

Part of the DM's job is for his players to have fun. It is a game, after all. If they're at a point in the adventure where there's a lot of roleplaying and little-to-no combat, being without a spellbook is fine. But it sounds like they're having some pretty serious fighting and the OP can do nothing, which is not fun. And clearly, whatever's going on is not fun, because the OP is here complaining about it.

And that is a failure by the DM. I mean, a complaining player is not necessarily the DM's fault, but it certainly sounds like it is here.

[darksolitaire]

Isn't the necessity for a spellbook part of the balancing factors of the wizard class? It's pretty much there to be occasionally be stolen, destroyed, taken away, etc.


And here I thought that wizards were actually one of the weaker classes at the low levels, and would not need balancing.

Seriously, losing your class features does not balance you against fighters/rogues, it makes you laughing stock of warriors and experts.

[ericgrau]

Sucks for the character.

Also sucks to be playing a commoner for more than half a session, unless that time is spent finding spells. Otherwise he might as well stay home and say "Let me know when you guys run into spells for more or info related to spells for me that I might be able to help on. My actions for every fight until then is to run and hide."

[Veyr]

And here I thought that wizards were actually one of the weaker classes at the low levels, and would not need balancing.
Played well, and with a mind to do so, a Wizard is among the most powerful classes in the game at any level (though it is harder to do this at low levels, they're still capable of beating another equal-level character of almost any other class with nearly 100% success rate).

Of course, this does assume that you have spells. No spellbook, and you're a brainy commoner.

[Keld Denar]

Copying spells into a spellbook is time consuming and expensive!

Using that as a balance point is TERRIBLE. Look at the following two examples.

IC:
"Sorry guys. I'd like to go with you to hunt down the orc lord that has been pillaging and burning the nearby villages, but I have to stay home and make a copy of my spellbook. If you haven't killed him in 2 weeks, I'll meet back up with you, never mind the dozens of innocent people who are dying at his hands because I have better things to do than be heroic."

Or how about OOC:
"Since the next 2 weeks to copy my spellbook will take up what the DM had planned for the next 8 sessions, and we only have 1 session per month, I guess I'll see you guys next Febuary. Try not to have too much fun without me. Good luck!"

Neither of these situations, both IC and OOC are particularly fun for the player. Its not maintaining control, its telling another player that they can't have fun and can't participate. This IS bad DMing. Period.

Also, to the people who suggested Spell Mastery...question. If the player was Energy Drained down to 1st level, the only way he would KEEP that Spell Mastery feat would be if he took it at 1st level, right? If he took it at 1st level, it would ONLY contain 1st level spells, right? Not terribly useful, if I do say so myself.

It sounds like the DM fiated away his spellbook since he counted it as a "class feature" that the character lost when he was drained. In that situation, it wouldn't matter how many back-up copies you had, the way the DM went about doing this would shaft you regardless. In general, keeping a backup is a decent decision, assuming you have enough downtime to make one, but in THIS example (which we are discussion, hence the thread) it is about as useful as giving fashion advice to a porcupine.

[randomhero00]

I think the easier road to go would be to convince your DM to allow you a brand new magic weapon, useful to a wizard, and as powerful as the rest of the groups. I'm fond of fairy tale stuff...like an enchanted broom that follows you around and beats the crap out of monsters for you.

[SuperFerret]

"I get to sit here and plink things with crossbows while everyone else actually does meaningful things, yay."

Part of the DM's job is for his players to have fun. It is a game, after all. If they're at a point in the adventure where there's a lot of roleplaying and little-to-no combat, being without a spellbook is fine. But it sounds like they're having some pretty serious fighting and the OP can do nothing, which is not fun. And clearly, whatever's going on is not fun, because the OP is here complaining about it.

And that is a failure by the DM. I mean, a complaining player is not necessarily the DM's fault, but it certainly sounds like it is here.


Also sucks to be playing a commoner for more than half a session, unless that time is spent finding spells. Otherwise he might as well stay home and say "Let me know when you guys run into spells for more or info related to spells for me that I might be able to help on. My actions for every fight until then is to run and hide."

So this faceless, nameless, pastless stock wizard is now entirely useless. Okay, I can buy that. And yeah, maybe there's a bit too much fighting for the wizard to feel meaningful. I still don't see it as something to whine about right off the bat.

Maybe if more than a session or two goes by without the wizard finding a scroll or wand or something, then yeah, whine away, but inherently there's nothing wrong about giving a PC a set back, however large it is.


And here I thought that wizards were actually one of the weaker classes at the low levels, and would not need balancing.

Seriously, losing your class features does not balance you against fighters/rogues, it makes you laughing stock of warriors and experts.

It's part of the balancing features. Not all of them. Another part is that they are weaker at lower levels.

I'm not saying that it's fair or fun if the DM's all "you have no spellbook and thus no spells, and here are a crapload of combat encounters", but a spellbookless wizard isn't useless even at first level, and can be quite fun for a short time if you look beyond the numbers.

[Veyr]

Maybe if more than a session or two goes by without the wizard finding a scroll or wand or something, then yeah, whine away, but inherently there's nothing wrong about giving a PC a set back, however large it is.
OK, assume it's a dungeon crawl. It sounds like it is, but whatever, hypothetical here, assume it's a dungeon crawl.

The Wizard has no reason to even show up for that "session or two". He's better off saving his time and gas just staying home, than attempting to "play" in that game, because the DM has told him he can't play.

This is bad DMing.

Under no circumstances would I consider it acceptable to waste 4-8 hours of my free time while I sit and watch everyone else play.

[Titanium Fox]

OK, assume it's a dungeon crawl. It sounds like it is, but whatever, hypothetical here, assume it's a dungeon crawl.

The Wizard has no reason to even show up for that "session or two". He's better off saving his time and gas just staying home, than attempting to "play" in that game, because the DM has told him he can't play.

This is bad DMing.

Under no circumstances would I consider it acceptable to waste 4-8 hours of my free time while I sit and watch everyone else play.

Agreed. The worst setback I would ever throw on a character would be one that would allow them to still play that session. In my opinion, resetting everyone down to level 1 is bad practice but that's beside the point. If they were a higher level, they could go on a quest to get the spellbook back, but it sounds like the DM just hates wizards, so no matter how much backup the wizard does he's going to get shafted.

[SuperFerret]

OK, assume it's a dungeon crawl. It sounds like it is, but whatever, hypothetical here, assume it's a dungeon crawl.

The Wizard has no reason to even show up for that "session or two". He's better off saving his time and gas just staying home, than attempting to "play" in that game, because the DM has told him he can't play.

This is bad DMing.

Under no circumstances would I consider it acceptable to waste 4-8 hours of my free time while I sit and watch everyone else play.


Agreed. The worst setback I would ever throw on a character would be one that would allow them to still play that session. In my opinion, resetting everyone down to level 1 is bad practice but that's beside the point. If they were a higher level, they could go on a quest to get the spellbook back, but it sounds like the DM just hates wizards, so no matter how much backup the wizard does he's going to get shafted.

No spells = no play? Really? I'd see that as incredibly childish and would welcome the player to just quit, if that's how they're going to act. If the player didn't like their character beyond the ability to cast spells, they shouldn't have played a wizard.

[Psyren]

That sucks but it's hardly gamebreaking, it's a minor setback. One that will probably be remedied with some good roleplaying and a few sessions of play.

A few sessions? I wouldn't even show up, or I'd be on the couch playing xbox and yelling my characters actions behind me. (It's not hard - "I load the crossbow" - "I fire it" - repeat.)


It's like saying that sundering the fighter's weapon is a hallmark of a horrible DM because, hey, that fighter had weapon focus AND weapon specialization and it was a masterwork weapon.

Terrible, terrible analogy. Even if the fighter doesn't come across any enemies with a weapon to loot, he can just improvise one - a barstool, a thick tree branch, a shovel, anything. There is no "improvised spellbook."And being dropped from 7 to 1, he'd have lost weapon specialization anyway, so the opportunity cost is nonexistent.


Also sucks to be playing a commoner for more than half a session, unless that time is spent finding spells. Otherwise he might as well stay home and say "Let me know when you guys run into spells for more or info related to spells for me that I might be able to help on. My actions for every fight until then is to run and hide."

This, and it's even realistic.


No spells = no play? Really? I'd see that as incredibly childish and would welcome the player to just quit, if that's how they're going to act. If the player didn't like their character beyond the ability to cast spells, they shouldn't have played a wizard.

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Spells are sort of their job.

[Titanium Fox]

No spells = no play? Really? I'd see that as incredibly childish and would welcome the player to just quit, if that's how they're going to act. If the player didn't like their character beyond the ability to cast spells, they shouldn't have played a wizard.

That's all a level 1 Wizard can do in combat, and from what we've been told this seems like a combat heavy campaign. So... yeah. Nothing to do.

[SuperFerret]

:smallconfused::smallconfused::smallconfused:

Spells are sort of their job.

Yes. I am aware. But it's not the only thing they can do, and if the player builds a character he or she enjoys playing beyond the flashy special effects, there shouldn't be a problem.

Plus, if it's a dungeon crawl, there'd be no issue. Those places are littered with treasure, and would also give ample opportunities for the wizard to be a Knowledge-monkey.

There's more to the game than numbers.

[gbprime]

The cure for the cheap or destructive DM is the Geometer PrC from Complete Arcane. Every spell, no matter the spell, takes but a single page to scribe and you get a discount. So maintaining a backup spellbook is cheap, and you can scribe quite a few spells on yourself via tattoo this way.

Plus this PrC enables the Boom Box (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10605783&postcount=15) tactic.

But really, by level 6 or 7, the wizard hasn't had the luxury of creating much of a backup spell book in most instances. This is what I use Wizard Guilds for. You pay your dues at one and they will not only store whatever backup book you have, but they'll allow you to use the shared books of common spells. (typically these aren't well stocked, and your backup book may or may not disappear if your payments lapse, depends on the guild)

[McSmack]

Why should he be spending his free time playing a game if it sucks?

Because he likes the company. Or his character. Or the setting. Or the DM. Or he enjoys problem solving and challenges.

Just like in real life, a lot of things in games can suck. That doesn't mean you pack up and go home the minute things stop going your way. It sucks when my character dies. That doesn't mean I quit and go home and tell them to call me when they get me rezzed.

Part of the game is challenge. It's challenging to have a setback or to have to think on your toes for a bit. To have to find something productive to do because class ability X isn't useful here. Yeah it's probably not as fun as your fell draining super empowered maximized twined transdementional orb of force. But just because the game is difficult is not a reason not to play.

Now if this had gone on for more than a sesson or so, I could see there being a beef about it. As a character you're not gonna be useful all the time, but shutting down one class's core ability for an extended period of time is no bueno if you don't give them something else to do.

I think the situation is obviously crappy for the wizard at this particular moment. But honestly it's nothing that couldn't be solved in 30 seconds at the gaming table.

DM: "You've killed the goblin raiders. Amongst the loot you find a worn spellbook that the goblins had been using for TP. You think you can make out a handful of cantrips and a few first level spells."
Wizard: "Awesome, but that will take forever to scribe into my spellbook."
DM: "well you'll have plenty of time to that since the caravan you're with travels slowly to the capital city over the next two weeks. Nothing interesting happens."

TA DA!

and no one was a d!ck about it or had to ragequit.

[SuperFerret]

That's all a level 1 Wizard can do in combat, and from what we've been told this seems like a combat heavy campaign. So... yeah. Nothing to do.

"In combat". Not all the time, and if this is a combat heavy campaign then yeah, it's unfair, but there's nothing inherently wrong with taking away a spellbook for a short time, even at first level. That's all I've been saying


Because he likes the company. Or his character. Or the setting. Or the DM. Or he enjoys problem solving and challenges.

Just like in real life, a lot of things in games can suck. That doesn't mean you pack up and go home the minute things stop going your way. It sucks when my character dies. That doesn't mean I quit and go home and tell them to call me when they get me rezzed.

Part of the game is challenge. It's challenging to have a setback or to have to think on your toes for a bit. To have to find something productive to do because class ability X isn't useful here. Yeah it's probably not as fun as your fell draining super empowered maximized twined transdementional orb of force. But just because the game is difficult is not a reason not to play.

Now if this had gone on for more than a sesson or so, I could see there being a beef about it. As a character you're not gonna be useful all the time, but shutting down one class's core ability for an extended period of time is no bueno if you don't give them something else to do.

I think the situation is obviously crappy for the wizard at this particular moment. But honestly it's nothing that couldn't be solved in 30 seconds at the gaming table.

DM: "You've killed the goblin raiders. Amongst the loot you find a worn spellbook that the goblins had been using for TP. You think you can make out a handful of cantrips and a few first level spells."
Wizard: "Awesome, but that will take forever to scribe into my spellbook."
DM: "well you'll have plenty of time to that since the caravan you're with travels slowly to the capital city over the next two weeks. Nothing interesting happens."

TA DA!

and no one was a d!ck about it or had to ragequit.

I'm upset that there's no thumbs up smiley here, but :thumbsup: nonetheless.

[Psyren]

Plus, if it's a dungeon crawl, there'd be no issue. Those places are littered with treasure, and would also give ample opportunities for the wizard to be a Knowledge-monkey.

1) A level one Bard is a far better Knowledge-monkey than a level one Wizard.

2) Treasure only matters if you live long enough to acquire/spend it. It's like saying "hey, he can get a new spellbook off the enemy wizard!" Of course, there's still the tiny issue of there being an enemy wizard.


There's more to the game than numbers.

Oh come on. This situation has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with being useful.

The OP is upset. He is worried about being "a huge money and time drain on his party" due to the DM's actions. Clearly being carried by his party is not fun for him, however you may personally feel about it.


Just to clarify: I'm not saying he should pull up stakes right away. I think he should wait for more than one session to see if things change, and if they don't, pull the DM aside and pointedly ask him if he's going anywhere with this.

[Vent Reynolt]

Don't forget that as a wizard, you still have all knowledge and craft skills as class skills. even if you can't do much in actual combat, you can still assist by providing information on enemies, and crafting equipment on down time. You could also pick up some useful mundane items like marbles, tanglefoot bags, and alchemist's fire.

Well, that's pretty much all I've got, and I understand that not all of it will help, but maybe there can still be something to keep you going to game sessions.

I kinda know how it feels, though. I played in a game where I rolled up a wizard and right as the first encounter began, the DM told the Cleric and I that we hadn't rested yet so we don't have any spells prepared. :smallfurious:

[Treblain]

There's nothing wrong with the concept in theory. I can think of plenty of video games that pull a similar trick on the player, where you lose your weapons/items and have to start from scratch, possibly retrieving them later. I think it would be kind of fun to try and get by after losing all your spells, managing with whatever you can find.

The flaw lies in the execution. If the DM wants to do this, he should make it possible to proceed. Say, soon after getting depowered, the party runs into a low-level goblin wizard, and you can take his spellbook, getting some spells to use. Maybe they'll be odd spells you wouldn't ordinarily take of your own free will, forcing the player out of their comfort zone and letting them be creative. Or even managing with a few scrolls and a crossbow. At first level, nobody's good at anything, so it wouldn't be that much worse.

This has nothing to do with balancing the wizard. Balance is something that should be attended to mainly before the characters are created. This is a mechanical and roleplaying challenge that affected the whole party, and it should therefore have an equal burden on all the players.

[Amnestic]

The flaw lies in the execution.

I would argue that a flaw lies in the execution. Another is that it's a group game, while the vast majority of video games which have such 'player resets' are often single player in nature. Being far and away outclassed generally isn't much fun, it's even less fun when you know that you're being dead weight for your friends and it's all because of a DM choice he didn't have to make.

[Psyren]

There's nothing wrong with the concept in theory. I can think of plenty of video games that pull a similar trick on the player, where you lose your weapons/items and have to start from scratch, possibly retrieving them later. I think it would be kind of fun to try and get by after losing all your spells, managing with whatever you can find.

The flaw lies in the execution. If the DM wants to do this, he should make it possible to proceed. Say, soon after getting depowered, the party runs into a low-level goblin wizard, and you can take his spellbook, getting some spells to use. Maybe they'll be odd spells you wouldn't ordinarily take of your own free will, forcing the player out of their comfort zone and letting them be creative. Or even managing with a few scrolls and a crossbow. At first level, nobody's good at anything, so it wouldn't be that much worse.

This has nothing to do with balancing the wizard. Balance is something that should be attended to mainly before the characters are created. This is a mechanical and roleplaying challenge that affected the whole party, and it should therefore have an equal burden on all the players.

I fully support this. Even a spellbook with gems like Detect Secret Doors, Hold Portal and Ghost Sound would give him something to do, and again encourage creativity (plus a couple of blank pages for him to put some cantrips of his choice in.)

My problem is when the player feels marginalized with no end in sight.

EDIT: Amnestic is also right - feeling like a burden on your friends (as the OP clearly does) is also pretty lame.

[SuperFerret]

1) A level one Bard is a far better Knowledge-monkey than a level one Wizard.

2) Treasure only matters if you live long enough to acquire/spend it. It's like saying "hey, he can get a new spellbook off the enemy wizard!" Of course, there's still the tiny issue of there being an enemy wizard.

1) Do they have a level one Bard? Just because someone could hypothetically do it better doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't.

2) How does the party solve the enemy wizard problem if they had no wizard? Why can't the spellless wizard watch the enemy wizard and use Spellcraft to identify the spells the enemy is casting and suggest strategy with that knowledge (while occasionally shooting him with a crossbow bolt to disrupt the spell)?


Oh come on. This situation has nothing to do with numbers and everything to do with being useful.

Useful in a numerical, statistical way, right? Because skill-wise and RP-wise, there is a hell of a lot a wizard can do without spells and they all could be useful without being statistically so.


The OP is upset. He is worried about being "a huge money and time drain on his party" due to the DM's actions. Clearly being carried by his party is not fun for him, however you may personally feel about it.

I'm aware he or she is upset. That's not the case I'm arguing here. I'm countering the claims that (at least from what I've read) state that any time a DM takes away a spellbook is a mark of a bad DM. Any and all advice I could've given to the OP has already been said by others.


Just to clarify: I'm not saying he should pull up stakes right away. I think he should wait for more than one session to see if things change, and if they don't, pull the DM aside and pointedly ask him if he's going anywhere with this.

Personally, I think he should get an aside with the DM the first session.

Also, a personal clarification: I'm not calling anyone childish, just the attitude of "I quit" when adversity is thrown ones way.

[dextercorvia]

It may have been mentioned, but the following might apply:

1. You can write any spell you have prepared (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#replacingandCopyingSpellbooks) in your book. It takes 24 hours, and costs 100/Spell Level as normal. Simply being level drained should not have gotten your level 1 spells.

2. You may prepare any spell you already know from a borrowed spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#wizardSpellsandBorrowedSpellbooks ).

3. #2 and #1 can be combined to save you time.

4. You can take Spell Mastery for spells you know, even if you don't have them back in your spellbook yet.

5. If you take Spell Mastery, you can take Uncanny Forethought. You can now cast any spell you know spontaneously, times per day based on Int mod.

6. If you are really pissed, or think this might happen again, you can take Versatile Spellcaster after Uncanny Forethought and never worry about a spellbook again. You might think it is a bad idea to trade away 3 feats for all of that spontaneous casting, but Sorcerer trades away 5 for the same thing a level later.

[Telonius]

No spells = no play? Really? I'd see that as incredibly childish and would welcome the player to just quit, if that's how they're going to act. If the player didn't like their character beyond the ability to cast spells, they shouldn't have played a wizard.

I really disagree with you. Without the ability to cast spells, the Wizard is a smart Commoner. Taking away his spells would be like forcing a Druid to wear a cursed Chain Shirt they can't remove. Or making the Fighter unable to hold a weapon. Or dropping a Cleric in the middle of the wilderness and stealing his Holy Symbol. Or throwing a Rogue into a campaign composed only of undead and constructs, with no traps.

Suppose you make a Druid, or a Fighter, or a Cleric, and have one of those happen to you (and only you) in the party. Is it honestly going to be fun sitting and twiddling your thumbs for the (probably 50-75%) combat portion of the session? It's taken away the character's ability to contribute in any meaningful way to the combat - and D&D is almost always combat-centered.

Yeah, it's possible to play a character like that. But unless the DM has a huge - and I mean huge - amount of trust developed between him and the players, it's just not reasonable to expect most people to react well to that situation being forced on them. Especially if one player is singled out as being much worse off than the others.

I might put up with it for one session - hey, sometimes stuff happens, somebody gets incapacitated or turned to stone or killed and they have to get back to a settlement before they can fix you. That's a normal part of adventuring. But if things aren't resolved by the time next session rolls around, there's going to be issues. If the DM can't figure out some way of allowing me to actually play the game (either through fixing the PC situation, or playing an NPC, or whatever), I'd seriously reconsider whether or not I want to play with that group. I have a limited amount of free time available. Sitting in a room eating cheetos in the corner while four of my friends play a game I also want to play is not a good use of that time.

[Psyren]

Useful in a numerical, statistical way, right? Because skill-wise and RP-wise, there is a hell of a lot a wizard can do without spells and they all could be useful without being statistically so.

And if he felt like this was the case, this thread would not exist.


I'm aware he or she is upset. That's not the case I'm arguing here. I'm countering the claims that (at least from what I've read) state that any time a DM takes away a spellbook is a mark of a bad DM. Any and all advice I could've given to the OP has already been said by others.

Whereas I was responding to McSmack's claims:

- "He can hang in there and not be a wizard for a few sessions": That is not what the OP signed on for and is a waste of his (presumably limited) leisure time.

- "The other party members are just as hosed": Not really, as pretty much every other class can improvise and still do their jobs. Not the Wizard.

- "Do it for the challenge": There is a middle ground where a wizard can be challenged without removing his abilities entirely. Give him a spellbook mostly full of chaff, or a limited handful of scrolls that he has to conserve for dire emergencies because he doesn't know when he'll get more. But no magic at all is just lazy.

[opticalshadow]

it sounds like your dm didnt htink things though. even if you had all your spells, wizards at level 1 suffer more then any other champion at level one, all in all it was a bad game design IMO, and him taking your spellbook its just the last straw. have him fair it up or leave, or if you want to get some pay back, start using some real cheese and remind him how hard you can make his life.

[Keld Denar]

It may have been mentioned, but the following might apply:

1. You can write any spell you have prepared (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#replacingandCopyingSpellbooks) in your book. It takes 24 hours, and costs 100/Spell Level as normal. Simply being level drained should not have gotten your level 1 spells.
It was mentioned. It takes 24 hours PER SPELL. If you have 14 spells in your book by level 7 (which you should have plenty more with just your 2 spells/level + base spells), thats 2 full weeks of 24 hours worth of work. Not to mention several THOUSAND gold. Regardless of that, according to the OP, the player had his gear yanked basically though DM Fiat. The guy could have had a whole library worth of spellbooks scattered across the realms each protected by a massive dungeon and hundreds of monsters and traps, and the DM still would have handwaved it away because it sounds like he was treating it as a class feature rather than a material possession. It was mentioned in the OP...


4. You can take Spell Mastery for spells you know, even if you don't have them back in your spellbook yet.
Except for the LEVEL DRAIN part...he lost his feats too, not just his class levels and spellbook. So, unless he had taken Spell Mastery at 1st level (which is dumb since you only get 1st level spells, you can't "hold" spells back when you take SM, you have to pick them all then), he would have lost Spell Mastery right along with his other feats and abilities. Again, mentioned in the OP...

6. If you are really pissed, or think this might happen again, you can take Versatile Spellcaster after Uncanny Forethought and never worry about a spellbook again. You might think it is a bad idea to trade away 3 feats for all of that spontaneous casting, but Sorcerer trades away 5 for the same thing a level later.

Again, not useful to the OP. At all.

[Veyr]

No spells = no play? Really? I'd see that as incredibly childish and would welcome the player to just quit, if that's how they're going to act. If the player didn't like their character beyond the ability to cast spells, they shouldn't have played a wizard.
1. I specified a dungeon crawl. Combat is what a dungeon crawl is. There is no way a spell-less Wizard can contribute in any way to combat.

2. I'll thank you not to call me childish.

3. I didn't say this situation was impossible to enjoy. I said it was the DM's responsibility that it be enjoyable. Clearly, this one is failing in that utterly, because the OP is here, complaining about it.

[Gnaeus]

6. If you are really pissed, or think this might happen again, you can take Versatile Spellcaster after Uncanny Forethought and never worry about a spellbook again. You might think it is a bad idea to trade away 3 feats for all of that spontaneous casting, but Sorcerer trades away 5 for the same thing a level later.

Or, if you are really pissed, or think this might happen again, you could call it a life changing moment and start leveling in a spellbook-less casting class, like Beguiler (since you probably have the stats for it), and ask the DM for a retraining quest to get rid of the wizard level first chance you get.

[dextercorvia]

It was mentioned. It takes 24 hours PER SPELL. If you have 14 spells in your book by level 7 (which you should have plenty more with just your 2 spells/level + base spells), thats 2 full weeks of 24 hours worth of work. Not to mention several THOUSAND gold. Regardless of that, according to the OP, the player had his gear yanked basically though DM Fiat. The guy could have had a whole library worth of spellbooks scattered across the realms each protected by a massive dungeon and hundreds of monsters and traps, and the DM still would have handwaved it away because it sounds like he was treating it as a class feature rather than a material possession. It was mentioned in the OP...

But, he shouldn't lose the 1st level spells in his memory, should he? Yes it sucks. I'm trying to give advice for going forward. Just writing down 1 or 2 spells can get him through the first session.



Except for the LEVEL DRAIN part...he lost his feats too, not just his class levels and spellbook. So, unless he had taken Spell Mastery at 1st level (which is dumb since you only get 1st level spells, you can't "hold" spells back when you take SM, you have to pick them all then), he would have lost Spell Mastery right along with his other feats and abilities. Again, mentioned in the OP...

But now, he knows level 0-4 spells, so when he gets to 3rd level, he can take Spell Mastery for spells that he can't even cast yet.



Again, not useful to the OP. At all.

I thought it was obvious since I was describing a 3 feat chain that this was a Long. Term. Plan.

[Sylivin]

I remember the first time I was ever in the "you can't do anything, you are useless" mode. I was playing a scout or a monk or something or another and we walked into a cave and some beasties cast invisibility on themselves. Naturally they also have some kind of sneak attack ability too.

"Sooo.. can I try a spot check? I'm guessing it'll be pretty insanely hard but hey, I have it maxed."

DM: "No, they're invisible."

"Oookay, well they're not silent so would a listen or maybe a survival to see tracks or footprints?"

DM: "No, you can't do anything, all right! Just wait for them to attack you!"

"Yeah, hell with that. Only a fool waits for the invisible thing to sneak attack them, especially if it is impossible to find them. I leave the cave."

A wizard without a spellbook is pretty much the same, especially if the money and time cost is so insane as to make it worthless to try and improve one's self. I would try this to the group, "Look guys, I'm pretty much completely useless right now. Let's go around and beg, steal, or murder our way into me finding some spell books. If the first one doesn't take then we'll do another and another until I can actually cast some spells again." After an adventure or two of that the DM should hopefully come to his senses - sooner rather than later.

[SuperFerret]

1. I specified a dungeon crawl. Combat is what a dungeon crawl is. There is no way a spell-less Wizard can contribute in any way to combat.

2. I'll thank you not to call me childish.

3. I didn't say this situation was impossible to enjoy. I said it was the DM's responsibility that it be enjoyable. Clearly, this one is failing in that utterly, because the OP is here, complaining about it.

1. Dungeon crawls include more than combat. Revolving door dungeons are just combat.

2. If you're the type who'd quit at the first sign of major adversity in your character's life, then I have no other word for it. Childish is as childish does.

3. It is the DM's responsibility to make sure everyone's having fun, and it is apparent that this DM isn't achieving that by the OP's story. Of course, as I've said (and it should be obvious), that's not the issue I'm arguing here.

[McSmack]

1. I specified a dungeon crawl. Combat is what a dungeon crawl is. There is no way a spell-less Wizard can contribute in any way to combat.

2. I'll thank you not to call me childish.

3. I didn't say this situation was impossible to enjoy. I said it was the DM's responsibility that it be enjoyable. Clearly, this one is failing in that utterly, because the OP is here, complaining about it.

At level 1 the hit/damage potential of a fighter vs a wizard is not all that great. Especially considering these facts:

A. the wizard in question is already in possession of a magic weapon. That's probably at least a +1 to hit (barring anything wonky) which offsets the BAB difference.
B. The wizard in question had already stated that he'd been planning to become a gish at some point which indicates that at the very least he should have a moderate to decent str or dex score.
C. At lvl 1 he can grab a spear and play flankin' buddy, and still help in combat.

D. It is not solely the DM's responsibility to make the game enjoyable. he's not a movie director. It's everyone's job.

E. He can copy spells he knows into a new spellbook. So basically he's 100g from being significantly more useful.

I totally see his concerns about being a burden to the party. Were I his DM and I had made this mistake/choice of taking his spellbook. I'd have a way to rectify it pretty damned quick.

[ffone]

DC 15 + spell level as I recall so DC 16 for a first level spell. Say you can take 10 so 10 + 4 ranks and so you just need to make up another 2 somewhere. You can probably get that from your int bonus.

Of course given that just scribing all the cantrips is going to take, I think, about a month depending on how many books you can pull from and that is just cantrips. I would try and talk this over with the DM since 40 some odd days of the party sitting and doing nothing while you spend a bunch of gold is a bit bothersome.

This. With taking 10 you should always make the DC. DC goes up with spell level but knew spell levels are every 2nd level - I.e. every 2 ranks - so if you didnt' put in 4 ranks at L1, catch up to Max ranks in a level or 2.

[Taelas]

A wizard's spellbook is something he should guard very carefully. Taking the spellbook away through DM fiat is definitely not an OK move.

Yes, sure, if during the course of the game, events happen to lead in the direction where the wizard loses his spellbook, he loses the spellbook. If he angers a powerful enemy with the means and opportunity to hire thieves to steal his spellbook and they get past whatever defenses he has put into it, he loses the spellbook.

But even if you take away the spellbook, a good GM should compensate for it soon after. Looting an enemy spellbook, for example.

[MrRigger]

I can definitely feel for the OP. It's the DM's prerogative to take the wizard's spellbook if the game calls for it. But it's also the DM's responsibility to provide a gaming environment where everyone can have fun. This does not mean the DM has to grab the player by the shoulders and shake him screaming "HAVE FUN, YOU FOOL!"* It simply means that he/she needs to provide a gaming experience where the players can have fun, whether or not the players allow themselves to have fun is not the DM's fault.

However, it doesn't sound like this DM has done that. A wizard casts spells. It's what wizards do. Clerics Turn Undead and Druids Wild Shape, but Wizards cast spells, and that's pretty much it. It's what defines their character. The particular spells they use define the character further, and the high knowledges help further put them apart from other characters, but spells are a huge part of the character, and the DM should respect that. Taking away the spellbook without presenting a way of getting a new one (as inferred from the "we became murderous hobos" comment), is not good game running.

Now, the OP probably should have taken precautions. Maintaining multiple back up spellbooks is a little difficult/expensive for a sixth level character, especially a gish who has to also keep magical weapons in stock. But the OP probably should have been able to keep dues in a Mage's Guild, who could provide spellbooks and scrolls to help rebuild the OP's lost materials. Even if the OP wasn't in a Guild before, now would be a good time to join one, seeing if they could front you a starter spellbook in return for services rendered (hello sidequest!) wouldn't be a bad idea. And from what I understand, the OP is not entirely without options. He has a magical weapon to use in combat (not necessarily the best option, but level one is always rocket tag) or sell to buy a spellbook, and he can use Knowledge skills to provide information, but at the end of the day, wizards cast spells, and without spells, you're not really a wizard.

The biggest question I have is "How long has this been the prevailing situation? Did it happen last session, or has it been this way for several sessions?" If it happened last session, and the DM is setting things up for something to happen, it's fine, just give it a session to see where the DM is going with things. If it's been going on this way for several sessions, however, the OP needs to have an OOC discussion with the DM. A wizard without a spellbook isn't like a fighter without a weapon. A fighter can improvise a weapon. A wizard can't improvise a spellbook. A more apt comparison is that a wizard without a spellbook is like a fighter without hands.

MrRigger

*Note: A DM this hammy would probably be a lot of fun.

[kardar233]

*Note: A DM this hammy would probably be a lot of fun.

I totally heard Brian Blessed's voice saying this. It was awesome.

[MrRigger]

That's the voice I had saying it when I wrote it.

MrRigger

[Knaight]

Part of the DM's job is for his players to have fun. It is a game, after all. If they're at a point in the adventure where there's a lot of roleplaying and little-to-no combat, being without a spellbook is fine. But it sounds like they're having some pretty serious fighting and the OP can do nothing, which is not fun. And clearly, whatever's going on is not fun, because the OP is here complaining about it.

You make two unrelated statements here. One of these is that there is major fighting, a character is ineffective, and that isn't fun. That argument is absurd, playing characters who are inept, or simply not nearly as good as others can be a lot of fun. The other is that the OP has stated (s)he isn't having fun, and thus probably isn't having fun, which is obviously valid. Its also an out of game issue, which is solvable via discussion with the GM in most cases.

[DonDuckie]

It's not great fun, but I don't that it's totally unfair and DM fiat.

I skimmed the answer, but didn't see recreating a lost spellbook. If it's there; sorry about the repost.
From the SRD:


Replacing and Copying Spellbooks

A wizard can use the procedure for learning a spell to reconstruct a lost spellbook. If she already has a particular spell prepared, she can write it directly into a new book at a cost of 100 gp per page (as noted in Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, above). The process wipes the prepared spell from her mind, just as casting it would. If she does not have the spell prepared, she can prepare it from a borrowed spellbook and then write it into a new book.

Duplicating an existing spellbook uses the same procedure as replacing it, but the task is much easier. The time requirement and cost per page are halved.


Okay, not as helpful as I remembered. I thought you could recreate any spell from your old book. But I still think it can be a fun challenge for a wizard. It's like a side quest with focus on the wizard, when he is not GOD/BATMAN.

Also, have the team pitch in for new spells. If they won't, start charging them for casting spells, it's obvious they aren't your friends.

But not the end of a wizards life, loosing your book, you can still prepare read magic, and that goes a long way.

[rainstorm]

Well since wizards have to memorize spells in their spellbook, and if wizards can copy spells from scrolls into their spellbook, couldn't you ask your DM if you could just memorize the spell off the scroll?

[Kaeso]

Ouch, that has to sting! I bet the party druid and cleric are laughing at you because they're not sissies that have to drag about a tome all day.

Maybe you could convince your DM to at least give you all cantrips as known spells, because all wizards start with all of them known, implying that it's very, very, very easy to get your hands on a book that contains them.

Another handy tip if you need to copy spells from scrolls: you don't need to make a spellcraft check if you have the cantrip 'read magic' prepared, and 'read magic' just happens to be the only spell that every wizard can prepare by heart. Since you have nothing better to waste your spell slots on, fill all of them up with read magic and you should be able to copy seven spells in a day.


Always tattoo key spells on your body. Then if the DM wants them, he has to rip yer skin off. :smallamused:

This could help in the future. If you don't want to look freaky by getting visible tattoo's all over your body, you could do this with the cantrip "arcane mark" instead. It's invisible unless you use 'read magic' (or detect magic). This means you only need to prepare the read magic spell once (which you can do without a spell book), then use that skill to read the magical tattoo's all over your body and prepare your spells.

[Psyren]

You make two unrelated statements here. One of these is that there is major fighting, a character is ineffective, and that isn't fun. That argument is absurd, playing characters who are inept, or simply not nearly as good as others can be a lot of fun.

It can also be very un-fun. So how is that absurd?

And given that D&D is at its heart a power fantasy, the likelihood that ineptitude is as fun to a majority of persons as ability is minimal. The players that like being continually outclassed are usually playing something else, like CoC.

[The Glyphstone]

It can also be very un-fun. So how is that absurd?

And given that D&D is at its heart a power fantasy, the likelihood that ineptitude is as fun to a majority of persons as ability is minimal. The players that like being continually outclassed are usually playing something else, like CoC.

what about people who like playing both?

[Psyren]

what about people who like playing both?

Both adept and inept characters, or both D&D and CoC?

[Knaight]

It can also be very un-fun. So how is that absurd?

Its a variable. It might be fun, it might not be fun, but it isn't inherently fun or not fun because people can both have fun because of it, and not have fun because of it. As such, the argument that it inherently not fun -which is the argument you made- is absurd.

[Psyren]

Its a variable. It might be fun, it might not be fun, but it isn't inherently fun or not fun because people can both have fun because of it, and not have fun because of it. As such, the argument that it inherently not fun -which is the argument you made- is absurd.

Actually, Veyr made that argument. I've limited the scope of my discussion to this particular player, and why his feelings are not unreasonable.

[Veyr]

My statement was that if:
Play consists entirely of combat.
You cannot contribute to combat.
Then:

This is not fun.

I'll admit that this is not correct as an absolute statement, however.

I'll amend my statement, then, to say that if this situation happens, the player should be given input into it. While it is not a situation that is guaranteed to make a player unhappy, it has a very large likelihood of doing so. It is not unreasonable for a player to expect to actually get to play if he shows up at the table.

And if the player does not think this would be fun (I likely wouldn't), then the DM should not let this happen.

[Squiggles]

At the very least you should have Read Magic available since it's something that all wizards practice and use consistently from the start of magical training

She cannot prepare any spell not
recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all
wizards can prepare from memory.

[Gametime]

what about people who like playing both?

That way lies madness. Conveniently, that gets you ready for the next CoC game!


Its a variable. It might be fun, it might not be fun, but it isn't inherently fun or not fun because people can both have fun because of it, and not have fun because of it. As such, the argument that it inherently not fun -which is the argument you made- is absurd.

Well, the argument is wrong. I don't think it's absurd; that would require a logical failure within the argument, whereas this is more of a factual failure.

[Pyro_Azer]

My spell book was taken and, while I've finally got a new one, It has no spells in it. All spells must be bought as scrolls or copied from a book with the standard 100g per page. also the Spellcraft roll has to be made to copy them, and with lvl. one skill points and a once/lvl chance of learning any spell....well...one bad roll really screws up the next four weeks of gaming.



This seems important. Why? Because this statement shows that not only is the OP not having fun, but his DM does not appear to be interested in helping to fix this. It is quite possible to fail a spellcraft check, and the OP"s mention of weeks does not indicate he will be finding spellbooks all over the place.

Quite frankly, if the OP does not find arcane scrolls or another spellbook the DMG recommends 13.3 EL equivalent encounters to level (P.41) and that is when he will get to cast spells again. If this is a combat heavy campaign this will happen quicker, but if it is a story campaign it could take several sessions. If the character survives that many encounters with no magic to defend themselves I will be amazed. However as it stands, the character likely has 8 or less HP (d4 HD + 18 con), is not proficient in any armor (and likely does not have any), and no magical defenses.

If the DM is not doing anything to help this situation, I WILL say this is a terrible DM. Not because of taking the wizards spellbook, but by having a player not have fun for an extended period of time and doing nothing about it. Yes, I realize wizards can do more than cast spells, but nothing else they do is useful in combat and at level 1 (in my experience) knowledge checks are not always useful and easy to fail. Unless the DM has the player rolling knowledge checks regularly, it would be more useful to play a commoner, at least they have more HP.

[OldFart]

If I can interrupt the pointless argument, and the resultant irony of the debate over "childish behavior" long enough to actually respond to the OP...

Chances are, when your DM came up with the idea of taking the party back to level 1, and removing your equipment except for your McGuffin one magic weapon, he did not consider the impact this would have on your character specifically, and was not out to nerf/challenge/whatever your character any more than anyone else in the party. It's likely just an oversight.

You need to discuss this with the DM soon. I wouldn't wait until the start of the next session, but try to have the conversation before then, so you don't waste everyone else's time, and both you and he can decide the best option and plan accordingly.

Here's what I'd suggest, in descending order of preference:

1. You mentioned your character was a gish build. If part of said build included a non-caster base class (not all gish builds do), then simply ask the DM if you could make that class your "1st level" class rather than wizard. Is this a major Ret-Con of your character? Why, sure it is! Y'know what? So is removing 5-6 levels and all but one item of equipment. If the DM is going to put the party on a railroad, he can at least give you a window seat near the dining car. *

2. Explain that the spell book is is not just equipment for the wizard, but a necessary component to performing his primary class ability. It's not merely an inconvenience to be role-played around, it's a crippling effect, similar to a rogue losing a hand or a fighter losing a leg. So just like the one-handed rogue or one-legged fighter, your wizard has no real choice but to retire from adventuring until he manages to get the time and resources to correct the injury. Really, he has to. It's not just that he cannot contribute to the party in any useful way; it's that the party will have to spend time and resources protecting him in dangerous situations. He won't just drain the party's resources - he will eventually endanger one of more of them needlessly. Ergo, either this situation has to magically get resolved via the power of plot device, or you need to bring in a new PC.

3. If neither of the above work, ask the DM if he intended to harm your character specifically; if it was his goal to place you far behind the rest of the party in wealth. I'm not sure which splat books you're using, but Core + SC = 27 cantrips. Add 5 1st level spells (3+ int mod, I'm guessing your INT at 1st is at least 14) and that's 3300 GP, minimum, that you're behind any other 1st-level character. Even if you sold your magic weapon (which the DM obviously doesn't want you to do - otherwise, it wouldn't have been the one item everyone kept), it wouldn't allow you to "break even" unless a) you were way over WBL for 7th in the first place or b) you had way more (too much) of your WBL tied up in a magic weapon than most gish builds. Furthermore, if you don't sell your obviously plot-important magic item, then you could assume the entirety of your WBL until some point between 3rd and 4th level would go into just breaking even with a 1st-level wizard with no starting wealth. Most people would think that a bit harsh.

4. If none of the above works, scratch the character's name off the sheet, replace it with "Nodwick," hand the DM his new NPC, LOL X-BOX.


*If you and the DM go this route, then immediately upon leveling up to 2nd, take Wizard 1, strike your best Prince Adam pose, raise your magic weapon over your head, solemnly intone "By the power of RAW!" and watch as the 3300+ GP spell book magically appears in your hands, possibly accompanied by a choir singing "Class Feature!" to the tune of "He-Man!" Yes, it's incredibly senseless. As is someone with genius-level intelligence suddenly forgetting what he's devoted his entire life to studying, and the entire Vanceian magic system.

[RedWarrior0]

If none of the above works, ask to take a look at his copy of the DMG. After all, it works on players, so why can't you throw it at the DM instead?

[Coidzor]

A basic backup should, ideally, be kept somewhere safe and well away from whatever dungeon the party is in. Stoneshaped into the wall of a castle, whatever. If something fifty miles away from where the party has been hit magically disappears... that stretches credibility.

Well, yeah, but the DM's still going to do it anyway if that's what he wants.

[knight.errant]

If it isn't a simple misunderstanding and your DM doesn't give you your spellbook (or a replacement) back, do the sensible thing and punch him in the face. Hard.

[Vizzerdrix]

Another idea. Quit wizard and go STP erudite or Psion.

[pinballchico]

Wow!!!!!! Just Wow. I had no idea this would blow up so much. To go back and quote everyone I should would take me over an hour so I'm going to simplify.

To everyone who is dissing my DM: Yes, it was a harsh move. It was, however, warned that "something no-one would like" would happen whenever we ended up doing "something" which is what we did. So the lvl. drain had been on the table since day one.(Personaly I'm glad we got to it sooner than later.) I think the "spellbook is gone scenario" was an "oh **** that would be gone too" moment. Also when I was able to buy a new(blank) spellbook it came with 3 scrolls. As soon as I learned one of them I had one of my favorite gaming moments ever(which actually screwed up his plans) so I'm still having fun in the game.(just in a murderous hobo kind of way.)

To whomever pointed out that I could take 10 on a spellcraft check: I love you. I never thought of that as a possibility. I'll find out if he'll ret-con my one failed spellcraft roll later today. I'm pretty sure he will. But even if he doesn't I'll never make a roll to learn a spell again.

To the feat advisors: I will look at them. They may not be the first on my list, but I will keep them as options.

To the Tattoo/arcane mark the spells on you: That's gonna happen and its gonna be fun.

To the hidden backup spellbook group: None of us are big on downtime...at the point everything got taken I had 3 or 4 scrolls to transcribe still. I'd had them for weeks...and with only 3 lvls. of spells to work with I wasn't worried enough to spend the time and gold to make the backups yet.....my mistake.

So overall I just need to find and learn a bunch of cantrips. May take time but I can deal.

I posted the backstory so you'd know why I had the question. (and to vent a bit.) Everyone seemed to latch on to the backstory. My origional question,and statement still stands................

D&D wizards are stupid!!!!!

Who reads the same thing every morning......casts it 2 or 3 times a day....and doesn't eventually have it memorized?

For as much as they reread the same thing they shouldn't even have to try to memorize it....they could recite it in their sleep.

I understand higher level complex spells....but I kind of assumed (wrongly) that ALL wizards had the cantrips memorized, and that writing them down would be a waste of ink.(that's why they start with them.)

After preparing and casting the same thing day in day out for over a week, anyone who doesn't have brain damage would have it down...

So why are High Int. casters unable to remember anything?

I thank you all for the support and Ideas.
I still wanna get to the bottom of this.

[olentu]

Wow!!!!!! Just Wow. I had no idea this would blow up so much. To go back and quote everyone I should would take me over an hour so I'm going to simplify.

To everyone who is dissing my DM: Yes, it was a harsh move. It was, however, warned that "something no-one would like" would happen whenever we ended up doing "something" which is what we did. So the lvl. drain had been on the table since day one.(Personaly I'm glad we got to it sooner than later.) I think the "spellbook is gone scenario" was an "oh **** that would be gone too" moment. Also when I was able to buy a new(blank) spellbook it came with 3 scrolls. As soon as I learned one of them I had one of my favorite gaming moments ever(which actually screwed up his plans) so I'm still having fun in the game.(just in a murderous hobo kind of way.)

To whomever pointed out that I could take 10 on a spellcraft check: I love you. I never thought of that as a possibility. I'll find out if he'll ret-con my one failed spellcraft roll later today. I'm pretty sure he will. But even if he doesn't I'll never make a roll to learn a spell again.

To the feat advisors: I will look at them. They may not be the first on my list, but I will keep them as options.

To the Tattoo/arcane mark the spells on you: That's gonna happen and its gonna be fun.

To the hidden backup spellbook group: None of us are big on downtime...at the point everything got taken I had 3 or 4 scrolls to transcribe still. I'd had them for weeks...and with only 3 lvls. of spells to work with I wasn't worried enough to spend the time and gold to make the backups yet.....my mistake.

So overall I just need to find and learn a bunch of cantrips. May take time but I can deal.

I posted the backstory so you'd know why I had the question. (and to vent a bit.) Everyone seemed to latch on to the backstory. My origional question,and statement still stands................

D&D wizards are stupid!!!!!

Who reads the same thing every morning......casts it 2 or 3 times a day....and doesn't eventually have it memorized?

For as much as they reread the same thing they shouldn't even have to try to memorize it....they could recite it in their sleep.

I understand higher level complex spells....but I kind of assumed (wrongly) that ALL wizards had the cantrips memorized, and that writing them down would be a waste of ink.(that's why they start with them.)

After preparing and casting the same thing day in day out for over a week, anyone who doesn't have brain damage would have it down...

So why are High Int. casters unable to remember anything?

I thank you all for the support and Ideas.
I still wanna get to the bottom of this.

Oh the not remembering thing is because spells just work that way. You prepare it and then you have it. You cast it and it is gone. So apparently at some point in time before you got set back your character expended all their 0th and 1st level spell slots in some way or another.

Though I suppose if a wizard had that one alternative class feature that removes the need for a spellbook that wizard could remember spells.


All in all I hope you can find an already full spellbook with all the cantrips if your group is as disliking downtime as you say since cantrips alone will take several weeks to scribe.

[ImperatorK]

So why are High Int. casters unable to remember anything?
Oh, they remember the spells. What, do you think, are they learning all the years by studying spellbooks? Magic formulas and gestures of course.
The thing is: That's not everything. The Wizard needs to transfer a little portion of magic that is stored in the spellbook (why, do you think, does scribing spells in the book or a scroll costs so much and takes so much time? Because it's a ritual to store the magic, duh), a spark. When the Wizard "memorizes" spells he loads his mind on sparks.
Simple, really. You just need a little imagination, is all.

And BTW - Wizards aren't stupid, they're just a class. Only the players who play them can be.

[Amphetryon]

Who reads the same thing every morning......casts it 2 or 3 times a day....and doesn't eventually have it memorized?The only argument I've ever been able to stomach without NERDRAEG regarding a Wizard's inability to remember their basic class feature is that the magical energies themselves are so alien to sentient minds that they refuse to take hold. Sorcerers, with their slight taint of [insert magical ancestor] are slightly more adroit at the process, but they're not perfectly attuned either.

I'm sure other folks have rationalizations that work better for them, but that's the one I'm able to rationalize.

[The Glyphstone]

The only argument I've ever been able to stomach without NERDRAEG regarding a Wizard's inability to remember their basic class feature is that the magical energies themselves are so alien to sentient minds that they refuse to take hold. Sorcerers, with their slight taint of [insert magical ancestor] are slightly more adroit at the process, but they're not perfectly attuned either.

I'm sure other folks have rationalizations that work better for them, but that's the one I'm able to rationalize.

My favorite has always been the 'pre-cast spells' justification. Even quickened spells actually take several minutes to cast, so wizards prepare spells in the morning by performing all but the last few trigger words/gestures that will unleash the spell. Scrolls are precast spells in physical form, which is why using them destroys the scroll - if you tried to 'cast' an entire spell that way, it would destroy your brain.

[Titanium Fox]

Think of the spellbook essentially like a focus that the Wizard is required to have. Sure, he remembers the spells, but the spells as written in the spellbook contain a little magic as well.

Same way scrolls work. Scrolls contain the magic, which is why it doesn't count against your spells per day.

[TallTroll]

>> So why are High Int. casters unable to remember anything?

It's the "Vancian magic system". If you've never heard of it, the basic concept comes from the works of author Jack Vance, specifically The Dying Earth. TSR then, um, "borrowed" the concept for use in D&D and it's descendants.

The whole point is that for dramatic reasons (in both writing and RPGs) the awesome power of a wizard to break the rules of reality needs limits. There's a reason 1st level casters cannot cast Wish, or equivalents. There's a reason wizards need to memorize spells, which then disappear from memory.

In systems that support spontaneous casting, different limits usually apply (more limited castings / day, limited spell selection, fatigue rules and / or a spell points system, that kind of thing). If casters can just wander round blasting away with any old magic they like, whenever they like, it gets overpowered really quickly.

Melee and ranged attack characters have limits on their power, rogues have other kinds of limits on theirs, and so on. A caster can easily win an encounter in one move with the right spell (maybe a powerful buff, a devastating damage spell, even a well placed Charm spell). It's really the limits that define the game, and therefore the fun.

1st level casters are a millstone in any party, anyway. Thus it has been, and thus shall it ever be. They have rarely have any noticeable combat ability, they have limited magical ability, and the sheer effort of keeping them alive is just awful. It wouldn't be worth it, except for one thing. Low level casters become high level casters, if you meat-shield them effectively. High level casters are kinda handy to have around :smallbiggrin:

Ftr 18 : *Ow*, that large red dragon took 2/3 of my HP in 3 rounds. Glad it failed the save vs the <insert cold-based damage spell> in the first round. Why did it have 2 treasure hoards, do you think?
Mrs Red Dragon ("Huge" size category), returning at a dramatically appropiate moment : WRECTHED MORTALS, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?
High level Caster : Ack! Glad I can memorize 4 reality-shattering packages of doom per day now. Oh, I'm before the dragon in the turn order? Sweet. I cast Distintegrate
DM : *Rolls* Goddamn it. The dragon is dust

Isn't it *nice* when things turn out that way? It makes up for levels and levels of standing at the back whining about needing more cover from the fighters, right there :smallwink:

[Kaeso]

My favorite has always been the 'pre-cast spells' justification. Even quickened spells actually take several minutes to cast, so wizards prepare spells in the morning by performing all but the last few trigger words/gestures that will unleash the spell. Scrolls are precast spells in physical form, which is why using them destroys the scroll - if you tried to 'cast' an entire spell that way, it would destroy your brain.

That does make sense to me, specifically because 5th level spells take up five pages of your spellbook (and a wizard probably writes really small letters too). This would mean that even a simple fireball (3rd level spell) requires an incantation that's so long, its written version takes up three pages. No matter how smart you may be, unless you have a photographic memory you can't remember one of them by heart, let alone a whole bunch of them. It makes sense that the preparation of spells consists of preforming the entire incantation, except for the last word/gesture/spark of magical energy, which is saved for when you actually want to directly cast the spell. The spell mastery feat would probably be the mechanical effect of a wizard actually taking the time to take four or five of his favourite spells and stomping them into his head until he can blindly recite them word for word (which is possible, in the days of the ancient Greeks some bards could blindly recite certain chapters of the Illiad and Odyssey). For sorcerers this doesn't apply because magic is as simple to them as breathing to you and me.

[JBento]

On the subject of spellbooks:

If you can afford it, utility-wise, the cheapest way to fill a spellbook (barring Secret Page shenanigans) is see if you can retain utility with only your 2 spells/lvl until you can amass 12.5kgp to buy a Blessed Book, which you can fill without paying anything extra.

Also, wasn't there a wondrous item - a quill - that could scribe stuff on its own? That could help with the time constraints

[FMArthur]

Collegiate Wizard + Eidetic Spellcaster = no book, tons of spells, no hassle.

[Gnaeus]

Isn't it *nice* when things turn out that way? It makes up for levels and levels of standing at the back whining about needing more cover from the fighters, right there :smallwink:

Nitpick. A sorc/wizard can certainly stop worrying about cover no later than level 4, when Alter Self, False Life, Mirror Image and Blur make him better on defense than a fighter. It isn't very hard to make a wizard who can stand in melee at level 1 (with not significantly more chances of dying than any other level 1 meleer).

[Manga Shoggoth]

1. I specified a dungeon crawl. Combat is what a dungeon crawl is. There is no way a spell-less Wizard can contribute in any way to combat.

Stand at back. Throw darts.

I'm not joking. This is how a number of my magic-users (admittedly in the old AD&D Gold Box PC games) used to operate. They only had one or two spells, so after those were cast they started on the darts.

There is still a problem if the DM does not provide anything useful for a Wizard in the early loot, but that's another issue.

[The Glyphstone]

Stand at back. Throw darts.

I'm not joking. This is how a number of my magic-users (admittedly in the old AD&D Gold Box PC games) used to operate. They only had one or two spells, so after those were cast they started on the darts.

There is still a problem if the DM does not provide anything useful for a Wizard in the early loot, but that's another issue.

That worked in pre-3e, when darts were a decent weapon compared to the much lower HP of monsters. Nowaways, you might as well make Craft (Whittling) checks for all the contribution you'll do to combat.

[Bayar]

That worked in pre-3e, when darts were a decent weapon compared to the much lower HP of monsters. Nowaways, you might as well make Craft (Whittling) checks for all the contribution you'll do to combat.

Or Perform (Poetry). With a penalty to Charisma and no ranks.

[NNescio]

For the record, darts deal 1d4 damage, and since a Wizard is not proficient in them he takes a -4 penalty.

Crossbows are much more effective, and people were already complaining.

[Sucrose]

Or Perform (Poetry). With a penalty to Charisma and no ranks.

In fairness, that can be used effectively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxPeIiU2kx4), sometimes.

[Manga Shoggoth]

That worked in pre-3e, when darts were a decent weapon compared to the much lower HP of monsters. Nowaways, you might as well make Craft (Whittling) checks for all the contribution you'll do to combat.


(Sigh) I'm showing my age again...

[somethingrandom]

In fairness, that can be used effectively (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxPeIiU2kx4), sometimes.

I think properly role-played this may encourage the GM to give you your spellbook back.

[NNescio]

I think properly role-played this may encourage the GM to give you your spellbook back.

Anyone wants to try their hand at adapting the "To be or not to be" soliloquy for this?

[Godskook]

Ok, as the DM in question, I'd like to weigh in on this in my own defense. Oh, and P-Chico, none of this is @ you.

1.This wasn't done to pick on an individual player in my group.

2.His 'handicap' lasted less than 2 sessions before the party developed enough gold to buy him more 1st level spells than his spellbook would normally hold. He was back up to 2 within a session.

3.He got to keep his magic weapon too. A +1 Eager Warning Discipline(DS) weapon. Oh yeah, we use d12s for initiative and he's got Imp Initiative. He goes first, period. Yes, the rest of the party benefits more from their +4 magic weapons, but still.

4.The party got to keep a very impressive homebrew artifact that the party almost always lets P-Chico use. It can:
-Make a ranged touch attack for 3d6 damage
-Be used as a lesser rod of extend, sculpting and empower
-Doubles as a 2d4 20/x2 +1 magic weapon
And P-Chico is the *ONLY* mage at this level in the party.

5.I've spent many hours helping P-Chico optimize his *FIRST* character in the 3.5 system. He's a focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt, and both ACFs were pointed out to him by me.

6.Since being de-leveled, this gish-in-training has found and purchased an abjuration version of mage armor.

7.This didn't happen in a dungeon. The party was 'released' into a major city with essentially magic-marts. A caravan full of allied merchants arrived in the city two days later.

Any questions?

[Amphetryon]

I have a hypothetical question for you, I suppose, Godskook:

Given the nature of this particular plot twist (taking away the majority of everyone's stuff) and the nature of pinballchico's particular character (focused specialist conjurer), would it have been possible to instead give him a 'new' spellbook with just the spells from his prohibited schools? Would you - any of you - have seen this as crueler to his wizard, or nicer to his wizard?

Minor aside regarding point #4:

If I were to sign on to be a trap-monkey/lock-picker in a campaign and found out after character approval that several sessions in a row are taking place in a desert devoid of any traps, and the DM's response was "but here's this nifty bow and arrow you can use!" I might still take umbrage, because that's not what I wanted to do with my character. I understand that D&D is a collaborative storytelling process, and that you can't have everything go your way all the time. That said, taking away what is essentially the central focus of the character and saying it's not a big deal because there was something else for him to do strikes me as disingenuous.

[Godskook]

I have a hypothetical question for you, I suppose, Godskook:

Given the nature of this particular plot twist (taking away the majority of everyone's stuff) and the nature of pinballchico's particular character (focused specialist conjurer), would it have been possible to instead give him a 'new' spellbook with just the spells from his prohibited schools? Would you - any of you - have seen this as crueler to his wizard, or nicer to his wizard?

I have no idea what you're trying to get at here, but it sounds like a setup into a strawman argument.

As far as walking into the strawman goes, I have two thoughts:

1.It makes no sense at *ALL* with the plot involved, so I don't understand where its coming from.

2.As far as nicer/crueler goes, I'd say that it entirely depends on how the DM presents it and how the PC takes it. It provides a significant source of sell value, but at the same time is taunting the PC with a spellbook that's completely useless to him. In either case, I still don't see any correlation between this and the no book case except in terms of 'current uselessness'.


Minor aside regarding point #4:

If I were to sign on to be a trap-monkey/lock-picker in a campaign and found out after character approval that several sessions in a row are taking place in a desert devoid of any traps, and the DM's response was "but here's this nifty bow and arrow you can use!" I might still take umbrage, because that's not what I wanted to do with my character. I understand that D&D is a collaborative storytelling process, and that you can't have everything go your way all the time. That said, taking away what is essentially the central focus of the character and saying it's not a big deal because there was something else for him to do strikes me as disingenuous.

Huh? Did you miss point #2? If you build a trapsmith*, and get to use him every session as a trapsmith, even the ones where you're 'screwed', I'm not seeing where the problem is.

(Also, a non-combative D&D build is kindof an odd example....)
*I include open lock in the trapsmith skill-set.

[Taelas]

2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are almost completely irrelevant. They could have used the money on other things than a new spellbook (unless you gave them extra money so they could replace the spellbook, in which case you acknowledged the problem and fixed it), everyone kept their weapons so that's moot, they would presumably have had the artifact still if he had played an arcane spellcaster without a spellbook, and the availability of new gear (even custom spells) does not off-set removing class features. 1 and 5 seem to contradict each other -- if you advised him to go wizard while knowing you were planning to take his spellbook later, 1 does not seem true. If you simply hadn't considered what to do with the spellbook... why did you remove it? To avoid giving him free spells when he re-levelled?

You could either have let him keep his spellbook and simply told him he wouldn't get to add the two new spells per level until he passes his old level again, or you could have provided him with a new book -- the latter probably being the better option, assuming you wanted to reset their gear level (aside from their magical weapon and the MacGuffin).

How precisely did the de-levelling come about?

[only1doug]

Quick backstory...lvl.6/7 party gets drained back to lvl. 1 (fits with the plot so we can only be so angry.) Everything is taken from us except for our highly magical weapons...and point buy attributes. So, over all, we're not too bad off for "another" lvl1 campaign.

However, after one session (In which we have reverted to the classic murderous hobos(amazing what poverty can do to ya')) it has become clear that as the party wizard I've got the REAL short end of the stick.

My spell book was taken and, while I've finally got a new one, It has no spells in it. All spells must be bought as scrolls or copied from a book with the standard 100g per page. also the Spellcraft roll has to be made to copy them, and with lvl. one skill points and a once/lvl chance of learning any spell....well...one bad roll really screws up the next four weeks of gaming.

So, a regular lvl. 1 wizard has acces to all cantrips and 2 lvl 1 spells of there choosing...I'm at NO cantrips and whatever spells the DM throws my way that I can afford.


Ok, as the DM in question, I'd like to weigh in on this in my own defense. Oh, and P-Chico, none of this is @ you.

Seems Fair that you get to defend your position.


1.This wasn't done to pick on an individual player in my group.

Irrelevent to the players feeling that he suffers more than the others


2.His 'handicap' lasted less than 2 sessions before the party developed enough gold to buy him more 1st level spells than his spellbook would normally hold. He was back up to 2 within a session.

That doesn't seem unreasonable


3.He got to keep his magic weapon too. A +1 Eager Warning Discipline(DS) weapon. Oh yeah, we use d12s for initiative and he's got Imp Initiative. He goes first, period. Yes, the rest of the party benefits more from their +4 magic weapons, but still.

Initative doesn't help if you have no useful actions to take.


4.The party got to keep a very impressive homebrew artifact that the party almost always lets P-Chico use. It can:
-Make a ranged touch attack for 3d6 damage
-Be used as a lesser rod of extend, sculpting and empower
-Doubles as a 2d4 20/x2 +1 magic weapon
And P-Chico is the *ONLY* mage at this level in the party.

Nice artifact, are its abilities limited?
if it is 1 use / day then its obviously much less of a viable replacement for spells than if its useable / round or / encounter.


5.I've spent many hours helping P-Chico optimize his *FIRST* character in the 3.5 system. He's a focused specialist conjurer with abrupt jaunt, and both ACFs were pointed out to him by me.

Focused specialist is nice, provided he has spells available to cast.

Abrupt Jaunt is a very handy ACF but without spells its just a benefit to running away.


6.Since being de-leveled, this gish-in-training has found and purchased an abjuration version of mage armor.

Very generous of you.


7.This didn't happen in a dungeon. The party was 'released' into a major city with essentially magic-marts. A caravan full of allied merchants arrived in the city two days later.

ample opportunity for replacements there.

Overall I think that you considered in advance and made provisions for P'Chico so that he would have options available for the few sessions it would take for him to replace his spells, Unfortunately P'Chico felt overly constrained with the reduction in choices and didn't trust that you would allow rapid replacement of his spells.

Greater communication between GM and Player would help but I think that P'Chico probably over-reacted (although I may well have done the same if I were in his shoes).

I hope that P'Chico is satisfied with your resolution of the Issue.

[Leon]

If I were to sign on to be a trap-monkey/lock-picker in a campaign and found out after character approval that several sessions in a row are taking place in a desert devoid of any traps, and the DM's response was "but here's this nifty bow and arrow you can use!" I might still take umbrage, because that's not what I wanted to do with my character.

If that is the extremes that you have made your character then that is simply your fault for over specialization otherwise its only a few sessions not a entire campaign in a desert and you can still be a totally useful member of the group without those skills.

[Tr011]

Dunno if it was mentioned...

Read Magic is the only spell IIRC that a wizard can automatically memorize w/o any spellbook.

Next time get your spellbook saved by a Retrieve Item spell. It's allways good.

Also you should stack spellcraft-bonuses (like masterwork item and a magical item, you can earn the gold by selling something less useful) because it's kinda necessary to learn the spells with a as great chance as possible.

Another way is just "burrow" some spellbooks like I did (wall of text incoming):
I had a wizard with 1 level of spirit shaman (and thereby high wis of 15 or 16) and 2 levels of wizard. I bought a Bottle of magic Sand (an item from Sand Storm, forgot the name) which can be controlled and gets any shape you want by wisdom-rolls. I went to an academy and talked to some obviously noobish student-geeks and told them I would have something great to show them. I got my sand out of my bottle and requested a little thought-battle: Can they get the sand into the shape of a person while I try to get it into the shape of a boat.
Of course they had low wisdom (kids or young adults) and thereby no one of them could control the whole sand and they needed to roll all higher than me: kinda impossible. While this conversation and the "battle" took place, our party rogue collected all their spell books and their money, and the spellbooks and the money of all viewers, since it got kinda spectacular.

After we walked straight away we divided the loot: all the books to me and the money to him. Besides on getting many level 0 and level 1 spells (and I think 4 level 2 spells because the rogue even stealed from a greater student), I got some money from selling the books.

If you just go somewhere where many noobish wizards meet, you can earn A LOT of money and spells.

[Gnaeus]

Robbing the students at a wizard academy may not be the safest short or long term way to get low level spells. The schoolteacher may get pissed. A couple of years later, when the students are level 17+, they may remember you.

[Yahzi]

So why are High Int. casters unable to remember anything?
You need to read "The Dying Earth" by Jack Vance. Not only will it explain this, but it will show you how D&D is supposed to be played. And it's brilliant.

[Titanium Fox]

-snip-

...Well then. That makes two people claiming to be his DM. O.o

[The Glyphstone]

...Well then. That makes two people claiming to be his DM. O.o

Who's the other guy? And what are the odds that two entirely different DMs would run the exact same plot in every detail?

[Amphetryon]

Huh? Did you miss point #2? If you build a trapsmith*, and get to use him every session as a trapsmith, even the ones where you're 'screwed', I'm not seeing where the problem is.

(Also, a non-combative D&D build is kindof an odd example....)
*I include open lock in the trapsmith skill-set.
Didn't miss point #2 at all. My point was apparently missed. If I've set up a character to do [thing] because that's the sort of character I want to play, I'll probably be miffed if, through no actions of my own, the DM weaves the plot such that it's impossible for me to do [thing]. Most folks don't sign up for a painting class, only to show up and have the instructor say "Okay, for the next 3 weeks we're doing landscaping."

EDIT: The point of dropping a spellbook with only prohibited schools was that, at least in that circumstance, he'd be able to use something vaguely pertaining to his actual character in order to make his character do what he wanted again, by selling it at the local Wizard's college/Magicke Shoppe/where ever it is in your campaign that Wizards exchange ideas.

[Titanium Fox]

As DM, I recently, and accidentally, destroyed the spellbook of his 7th level mage. He got stuck in an Acid Fog and lost everything.


Ok, as the DM in question, I'd like to weigh in on this in my own defense. Oh, and P-Chico, none of this is @ you.

-snip-

I might just be being an idiot right now, but both of these seem to imply DMing the game that he's currently in.

[king.com]

As both a DM and a player, this entire thread makes me a bit terrified and sad. Now I know people can play D&D as a wargame but from examples like this I am very glad I dont touch the thing, nothing but bad stories seem to come from using the system (im sure there are good ones but seems like many can just be fitted into another system).

My favourite character moment was playing a psyker in a Dark Heresy game where I didn't have any fate points left. Basiclly if I ever rolled a 9 i would potentially kill everything on the planet (if i was particularly unlucky). This mean't I didnt use any psychic powers, I was forced to roleplay my way through the entire 3 month mission I was a part of, the moment I used a power it went badly. My mind was swapped with an adept I was trying to get information out of as he ran, in my body, screaming down the hallway that I was a psyker. In my panic I ran up to an automated writing system and got it to tattoo my arm with gibberish before swapping back into my own body. I was scared, helpless, running for more life, knowning that I had sentenced a man to death.

Personally as both a GM and player, adversity is the best aspect of a roleplaying game, when things are comfortable and stable, where the game is running under known variables is an incredibly boring experience. I would loved to have played p-chico's character.

The ideas people come up with are somewhat startling. "Kill your character", "Your DM is stupid", "Murder a wizard, take his book".

Guess I just live in my own little bubble thats devoid of this kind of thinking.

[Boci]

As both a DM and a player, this entire thread makes me a bit terrified and sad.

They're also far more likely to be posted than "Just want to say I love my DMs story" and "My players are great" since the latter two situations do not require advice.

[hangedman1984]

I might just be being an idiot right now, but both of these seem to imply DMing the game that he's currently in.

my interpretation is that faceroll is relating an anecdote about how something similar occurred in a separate game he was running

[Taelas]

I might just be being an idiot right now, but both of these seem to imply DMing the game that he's currently in.

Faceroll is talking of a different game.

[Tr011]

The ideas people come up with are somewhat startling. "Kill your character", "Your DM is stupid", "Murder a wizard, take his book".

Guess I just live in my own little bubble thats devoid of this kind of thinking.

Killing his own character is imo a pretty helpless and dumb idea. It's nothing I would consider since it does not fit the character (except for if you're playing an asian suicide bomber pilot). Saying the DM would be stupid is not good either since he obviously put the player into a challenge, that should be accepted. If you don't accept the challenges from your DM, your just playing the wrong game.

Murdering a wizard can be both a funny and effective solution to the problem. But it's obviously alignment-depended. My character in the story I wrote was evil and roguish, the rogue was evil and roguish, too. The action reflected the high Int, Cha and Wis scores of my character and his addiction to planning his actions.
If your playing a good wizard, there similar ways, too: Find a dark and evil necromant by using gather information and your knowledge-skills and then stop him from his actions by involving him into a battle where he expends all his spells (counterspelling and provoking concentration checks are your friends here), then just take his spellbook and his scrolls and convince him to never do such cruel things again. This is both funny and effective, too, and obviously one way a good wizard can take.

[Titanium Fox]

Faceroll is talking of a different game.

Apologies then. I saw "I destroyed the spellbook of his 7th level Wizard..." and thought he was referring to this game. (Emphasis mine.)

[NoobForHire]

This does not mean the DM has to grab the player by the shoulders and shake him screaming "HAVE FUN, YOU FOOL!"

I read this and lol'd.

I also believe that you wouldn't have lost your prepared spells until you cast them, but I might be wrong there.

[Godskook]

I also believe that you wouldn't have lost your prepared spells until you cast them, but I might be wrong there.

This was a possibility I had not considered until too late in the process to really allow it.


2, 3, 4, 6 and 7 are almost completely irrelevant. They could have used the money on other things than a new spellbook (unless you gave them extra money so they could replace the spellbook, in which case you acknowledged the problem and fixed it), everyone kept their weapons so that's moot, they would presumably have had the artifact still if he had played an arcane spellcaster without a spellbook, and the availability of new gear (even custom spells) does not off-set removing class features.

First of all, I'm responding to a whole list of random posts that I didn't bother to link to. Some of my points are only relevant in the context of responding to particular posts.

Second, a spellbook is a perfectly legitimate item to steal in D&D, and something I might even take from Chico again someday(no plans to currently). I hope he learns from this experience and prepares for such a possibility.


1 and 5 seem to contradict each other -- if you advised him to go wizard while knowing you were planning to take his spellbook later, 1 does not seem true. If you simply hadn't considered what to do with the spellbook... why did you remove it? To avoid giving him free spells when he re-levelled?

I didn't advise him to play a wizard. It went like this:

Me: Chico, what do you want to play
Chico: A wizard who can also enter melee
Me: Ok, that's a gish. Here's some very useful ACFs, prestige classes, and feats. Here's a few complete build progressions that I consider viable. Finally, here's the playground, where I go for all my D&D 3.5 resources.
Chico: Cool!

I removed the spellbook cause that's what would've happened with the plot.


You could either have let him keep his spellbook and simply told him he wouldn't get to add the two new spells per level until he passes his old level again, or you could have provided him with a new book -- the latter probably being the better option, assuming you wanted to reset their gear level (aside from their magical weapon and the MacGuffin).

It isn't unreasonable to expect Chico to work back into a spellbook, by:
-Going to the nearest wizard college and roleplaying
-Selling his +4 magic weapon
-Doing jobs with his artifact
-Calling in favors from NPCs he has helped in the past(there's a list)
-Trading spell-castings for spellbook pages(casting slots are worth something too)

Since he is still a relevant member of the PC party without his book(artifact+initiative = useful), I saw no reason to hasten the book's return anymore than what the party is already going to do themselves.


How precisely did the de-levelling come about?

The PCs had all been given gems that contained shards from one of the 8 great titans(Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Law, Chaos, Light and Dark). Dominic(the NPC wizard) was responsible for creating said gems. He then, after a while, captured the PCs, and removed the gems to create...something. This process sucked all the XP from the PCs.

I'd be way more specific, but my PCs are definitely reading this thread, and much more than that would reveal plot that the PCs don't fully understand yet.

[king.com]

They're also far more likely to be posted than "Just want to say I love my DMs story" and "My players are great" since the latter two situations do not require advice.

Its not the starting of the thread that scares me, its the responses people gave.

[742]

could you retcon in keeping your spellbook instead of/in addition to weapon? it fits balancewise. and "thats what fit with the plot" is like "but its what the character would have done!" sometimes its justified, sometimes theres no real reason not to make a tiny tiny hole in the plot to avoid taking a lot of fun out of the gameplay. it seems like this player feels left out, playing a wizard with no spellbook (which even by starting gold he/she/xe/it should have all cantrips and a few level 1 spells memorized)

[Leon]

Guess I just live in my own little bubble that's devoid of this kind of thinking.

A little bubble of Sanity in a mad mad world.


I quite often find that the reactions people have to rather simple things on here are to most extreme option than what would be a simple answer.
And that its quite often taken as a personal slight to them even if its nothing to do with them (or maybe if it threatens the sanctity of their choice of play)
Yet are quick to put forward that style of play is apparently the most important and universal one and anything said otherwise is wrong.

[AllisterH]

Heh...I wonder how the player would fare under the same situation in AD&D?

Even starting off, a wizard only knows 1d4+1 spells and everything after that is random chance except for 1 spell per SPELL level of their choice....)

[Acanous]

Ok, so I did some figuring. your WBL at lv 7 is a little over 23,000.
You say you have a magic weapon that grants a bonus to initiative, and while I can't find anything of that ken in my room at 4AM, I'm going to assume it's roughly a +3 bonus, so 18,000 GP.

if it's only +2 you're looking at 8000, so you're going to need to pilfer one of your buddies' magic weapons as well. Don't worry, it's for a good cause.
Sell your weapons for half value.
A good room for the night where you won't be disturbed shouldn't run you more than 2GP. Flint and Steel is another 1GP.

A Candle of Invocation keyed to your alignment is 8,400 GP.

You are now lv 7 and have all your items back.

[Taelas]

First of all, I'm responding to a whole list of random posts that I didn't bother to link to. Some of my points are only relevant in the context of responding to particular posts.
All right.


Second, a spellbook is a perfectly legitimate item to steal in D&D, and something I might even take from Chico again someday(no plans to currently). I hope he learns from this experience and prepares for such a possibility.
It certianly is legitimate to steal it, but it is also one of the harshest legitimate things you can do in the game. It is not something to be done lightly, in my opinion. Mind you, I am not saying you did.


I didn't advise him to play a wizard. It went like this:

Me: Chico, what do you want to play
Chico: A wizard who can also enter melee
Me: Ok, that's a gish. Here's some very useful ACFs, prestige classes, and feats. Here's a few complete build progressions that I consider viable. Finally, here's the playground, where I go for all my D&D 3.5 resources.
Chico: Cool!

I removed the spellbook cause that's what would've happened with the plot.
OK.


It isn't unreasonable to expect Chico to work back into a spellbook, by:
-Going to the nearest wizard college and roleplaying
-Selling his +4 magic weapon
-Doing jobs with his artifact
-Calling in favors from NPCs he has helped in the past(there's a list)
-Trading spell-castings for spellbook pages(casting slots are worth something too)
Yes, but it is extra work that he is forced to do. It takes time and resources that he could have spent doing something else (and even favors count for that).

Chico's original complaint was that he felt he was a drain of resources on the party.


Since he is still a relevant member of the PC party without his book(artifact+initiative = useful), I saw no reason to hasten the book's return anymore than what the party is already going to do themselves.
That's a bit harsh. The wizard might still be relevant without his spellbook, but not to anywhere near the capacity he is used to. Of course, hardship happens even in games sometimes, and as long as they're still having fun, everything's good.


The PCs had all been given gems that contained shards from one of the 8 great titans(Earth, Water, Fire, Air, Law, Chaos, Light and Dark). Dominic(the NPC wizard) was responsible for creating said gems. He then, after a while, captured the PCs, and removed the gems to create...something. This process sucked all the XP from the PCs.

I'd be way more specific, but my PCs are definitely reading this thread, and much more than that would reveal plot that the PCs don't fully understand yet.
Certainly! Do keep surprises for them. It sounds interesting (despite my criticisms). :smallsmile:

[Godskook]

Chico's original complaint was that he felt he was a drain of resources on the party.

Chico's original complaint, as far as was ever mentioned in-thread, was that mechanically, wizards are stupid. To him, this was a 3.5 mechanics issue, not a campaign issue.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Help me mount an argument to my DM that at least the cantrips are commited to memory and don't need to be sought out (we're playing splat..so there are alot of them I've never even looked at...but I'm fine with just core being memorized)

Help me out playground...or I'm gonna be a huge money and time drain on my party for quite a while.

Love ya.

From the original post, it seems to me he was worried about being unjustly nerfed and being a drain on the party, which are both Campaign issues.

[Eric Tolle]

I might just be being an idiot right now, but both of these seem to imply DMing the game that he's currently in.


You have remember that old-school DMs may not be sensitive to the massive sense of entitlement that modern D&D wizard players evidently have. Therefore it's quite likely that more than one DM will have treated spellbooks as any other piece of equipment, not as something sacrosanct, and be willing to destroy or take away their toy.

Hell as my wife said, "spellbooks were fair game-loot the wizard's corpse!" She then recounted the occasions where the wizard had to desperately try to convince the cash-poor amd hungry party not to hock his spellbook. Good times.

Of course this was all before the wealth-by level and "spellcasters should tromp over everything" notions. Sigh, the current era of player entitlement makes me nostalgic for blue bolts and viking hats.

[Godskook]

From the original post, it seems to me he was worried about being unjustly nerfed and being a drain on the party, which are both Campaign issues.

Try reading the OP's clarification post on page 3:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11317912&postcount=103

[Rogue Shadows]

Of course this was all before the wealth-by level and "spellcasters should tromp over everything" notions. Sigh, the current era of player entitlement makes me nostalgic for blue bolts and viking hats.

Take the nostalgia goggles off - magic users could always trample over non-magic users. The difference is that in 3.5 we're better at measuring how much. It's also an acknowledge flaw in the system, one that people go to great lengths to fix.

Wealth by Level is, I think, a fundamentally good idea.

[Taelas]

Chico's original complaint, as far as was ever mentioned in-thread, was that mechanically, wizards are stupid. To him, this was a 3.5 mechanics issue, not a campaign issue.

Perhaps "complaint" was the wrong word, then.

He asked for help in convincing you that he should get more spells than you gave him, as otherwise he would be too much of a drain on the party.

[u-b]

First thing that I, as a wizard, would do is to consider selling the weapon and buying a wand. If a +2 weapon, that's good for a well-used, half-drained wand of Magic missile (5th), which is good for over 250 damage, cumulatively, in chunks of 10.5. I suppose, 250hp worth of reasonably tough foes will be enough to finance a new wand an have some extra cash left. If +1 weapon... well, Magic missile (3rd) can still be useful.

upd: Having read this thread in full... well, must be a fun game to play. :) To the original point: sanity-wise I'd prefer GURPS-style spellcasting and magic system, but hey, there are costs and we are not optimizing for sanity. It is heroic fantasy, after all. ;)

[Knaight]

You have remember that old-school DMs may not be sensitive to the massive sense of entitlement that modern D&D wizard players evidently have.

I don't know where you are getting this idea that there are "wizard players" as routine. Variety seems to be the norm.

[king.com]

I don't know where you are getting this idea that there are "wizard players" as routine. Variety seems to be the norm.

Its the same as the "people who only play DnD" rule. They definitely exist but aren't as common as you may expect.