Explain Gestalt Builds Please

[joca4christ]

I've been reading through for quite awhile now, and while I've seen lots of Gestalt builds, I'm not quite sure I understand exactly what they are, other than consisting of a lot of different classes/PrCs.

Can someone give me the bottom shelf run down of what they are?

[Yora]

Instead of just one, you select two classes. When you gain a level, you take the BAB, hit points, Skill points, and saves of the better side, and get the other class features of both.

A fighter 1//rogue 1 has:
1d10 hp
(8 + Int) x 4 skill points
+1 BAB
+2 Fort
+2 Ref
+0 Will
1 Fighter Bonus Feat
Sneak Attack +1d6
Trapfinding

[joca4christ]

Oh, that's cool! I wish I could talk my DM into that!

I mean, these make pretty powerful PCs, right?

Any drawbacks, or hindrances?

Again...sounds like, for example with my current PC, I would be a scout/swordsage and being able to use maneuvers and stances, as well as get all the fun stuff from a scout. Right?

[Aricandor]

There are no real drawbacks to it. You get the abilities of two classes and the best from each with BAB/saves/skills, the end.

It generally doesn't work out as powerful as it looks at first glance though, simply due to you still being restricted to one set of actions each round. You can make some nice synergies, of course, but the main exceptions are extreme ways of using a single ability score or outright breaking the action economy in half (or by doing both as, say, a wizard/factotum or warblade/factotum).

[Proven_Paradox]

It's a system that's intended to be used by the entire party or no one at all, and yes, it does result in significantly stronger characters than standard play. Not twice as powerful, since you don't have twice as many hit dice and due to the action limits Aricandor mentioned, but it's still way stronger than a standard build.

Drawbacks are mostly inherant to the system. Any given DM is going to have to make monsters more threatening to challenge the party, and the rules get really complicated really fast, which will dissuade many players.

But if you can find someone willing to run the game? Gestalt characters are a lot of fun, and the rules make character concepts viable that would otherwise be crippled, such as high level adjustment/RHD creatures.

[Tokiko Mima]

Oh, that's cool! I wish I could talk my DM into that!

I mean, these make pretty powerful PCs, right?

Any drawbacks, or hindrances?

Again...sounds like, for example with my current PC, I would be a scout/swordsage and being able to use maneuvers and stances, as well as get all the fun stuff from a scout. Right?

The primary advantage to gestalt is endurance. What you have twice of, usually, is total resources to use in battle. A party of gestalt PC's can be expected to fight through many more encounters per day without rest.

I use gestalt rules when a campaign has a very large, detailed dungeon with numerous encounters. For example, the Expedition to Castle Ravenloft has a sections were the party will not be able to stop and must keep pushing on because the moment they leave the castle, the vampire lord will redouble all his defenses.

So if you want to sell this to a DM, I would spin it as "You wouldn't have to worry about us running back outside to sleep whenever the wizards spells ran out! He will have a second classes abilities to use at that point."

[Drglenn]

SRD link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)

[joca4christ]

For me, the appeal wouldn't necessarily be just what I could do in combat. I mean, having my skirmish AND strikes and what not would be very helpful. But the flavor of scout with the abilities of the swordsage would please me greatly. At the moment I'm at a crossroads of where to go after a bit. Do I just go high enough swordsage to get the manuevers and stances I want to make my scout more effective (I'm using Shadow Jaunt, Hunter's Sense and Child of Shadow. Waiting to get Dance of the Spider.)

I really doubt my DM would let me do this.

Cool concept though.

Thanks for explaining.

[herrhauptmann]

Three caveats:

Per regular gestalt rules, you can only take 1 prestige class in a given level. Normally, that's not a problem, and a lot of DM's waive that rule anyway.

Also, gestalt doesn't work too well with dual progression Prestige classes like Mystic Theurge or Ultimate magus. Because you could go Wiz//Cleric for a few levels, then say Wiz5/Mystic5//Cleric5/ Something else 5. Which then gives you Wiz 10 casting, Cleric 10 casting, and something else nice for 5 levels.
Of course, if you do it like Wiz5/Cleric5/Mystic5// Something 15, then a dual progression prestige class shouldn't be an issue.

Saves/Bab really only works properly if you use the fractional bab system with gestalt. Otherwise you can get a Ftr1/Wiz19//Sorc20 with 20 bab. :smallconfused:

My preferred route for gestalt, is when taking a casting Prestige Class like swiftblade that loses caster levels, fill the other side of the level with wiz to keep my caster level up.

[boj0]

Otherwise you can get a Ftr1/Wiz19//Sorc20 with 20 bab. :smallconfused:

Wait, how are you getting 20 BAB with only 1 level of fighter? If gestalt takes the best part from each side of the progression, then it would take either the 10 BAB of a lv 20 sorc, or the 10 BAB of a Ftr1/Wiz19. If it was Wizard 20||Fighter 20 then yeah that would work.

[Amnestic]

Saves/Bab really only works properly if you use the fractional bab system with gestalt. Otherwise you can get a Ftr1/Wiz19//Sorc20 with 20 bab.

That's not how the gestalt BAB rules work. It simply takes the highest number you have.

A Fighter 1/Wizard 19/Sorc 20 would have a BAB of +10.

[John Cribati]

That's not how the gestalt BAB rules work. It simply takes the highest number you have.

A Fighter 1/Wizard 19/Sorc 20 would have a BAB of +10.

Fighter 1 gets you +1 Bab. Then Sorcerer 2 (ECL 2, took Sorcerer 1 at ECL 1) will give you another +1. Then Wizard 2 (which you'd get at ECL 3, since you took Wizard 1 at ECL 2) will net you another +1 Bab. Essentially, your Sorcerer Bab increases (i.e. "progresses") at every even ECL, while Wizard Bab increases at every Odd ECL.

[herrhauptmann]

That's not how the gestalt BAB rules work. It simply takes the highest number you have.

A Fighter 1/Wizard 19/Sorc 20 would have a BAB of +10.

Yes I know that. But it's an example I keep seeing here on the boards.

The reasoning is that since wizard and sorc both get a boost to BAB on even levels, and every character level is going to be an level for one class or the other, you're going to get a boost to bab each level. That's why I specified using fractional saves/bab.

[Amnestic]

Fighter 1 gets you +1 Bab. Then Sorcerer 2 (ECL 2, took Sorcerer 1 at ECL 1) will give you another +1. Then Wizard 2 (which you'd get at ECL 3, since you took Wizard 1 at ECL 2) will net you another +1 Bab. Essentially, your Sorcerer Bab increases (i.e. "progresses") at every even ECL, while Wizard Bab increases at every Odd ECL.

I'm gonna quote the SRD entry:



Base Attack Bonus
Choose the better progression from the two classes.
(Emphasis mine)

Out of Ftr 1/Wiz 19 and Sorc 20, which side has the has the better BAB progression?

It's the side that gets +10 at ECL 19 instead of +10 at ECL 20. Thus, you choose that side. Because it has the better progression. The fact that Sorcerers gain BAB too is entirely irrelevant, it has a slower progression, thus you ignore it.

[herrhauptmann]

I'm gonna quote the SRD entry:


(Emphasis mine)

Out of Ftr 1/Wiz 19 and Sorc 20, which side has the has the better BAB progression?

It's the side that gets +10 at ECL 19 instead of +10 at ECL 20. Thus, you choose that side. Because it has the better progression. The fact that Sorcerers gain BAB too is entirely irrelevant, it has a slower progression, thus you ignore it.
Ok, first off, we're not arguing with you. But the reasoning, is that at each level, you're getting a +1 to bab.
Ftr1/Wiz1 => Bab +1.
Sorc1/Wiz2 => Wiz bab goes up, so Bab +2.
Sorc2/Wiz3 => Sorc bab goes up, so Bab +3.

Yes, I know the logic is flawed, non fractional bab/saves only works in non-gestalt games. But it's a common mistake I keep seeing.
It'll keep coming up for the next month or so, then go away until say March/April.
I mentioned it now, so that someone inexperienced with gestalt, knows to not make that mistake.

[joca4christ]

Well, until you guys started talking about the BaB progression, I was pretty clear. Now, I'm confused. It sounded at first that a 1 fighter/1 Wizard had a CL or I guess EL of 1. If you stayed on this to 20, wouldn't you have the BaB of +20? Why would it be only ten?

[Amnestic]

Well, until you guys started talking about the BaB progression, I was pretty clear. Now, I'm confused. It sounded at first that a 1 fighter/1 Wizard had a CL or I guess EL of 1. If you stayed on this to 20, wouldn't you have the BaB of +20? Why would it be only ten?

When talking about builds with multiple classes, a multiclass (eg. Fighter 4/Sorcerer 3) is indicated by a single slash, whereas a split between Gestalt sides (Sorcerer 4//Wizard 4) is indicated by two slashes.

[Andorax]

And to avoid these multitudes of headaches, it's not uncommon for a DM to offer up a middle ground. Allow Gestalt, but ban PrCs and even any form of multiclassing. Pick two 1-20s, one for each side, and stick with 'em.

[John Cribati]

And to avoid these multitudes of headaches, it's not uncommon for a DM to offer up a middle ground. Allow Gestalt, but ban PrCs and even any form of multiclassing. Pick two 1-20s, one for each side, and stick with 'em.

The sole purpose of Gestalt is cheese and munchkinery. Ergo, any DM who implements those rules will have no players.

[ImperatorK]

The sole purpose of Gestalt is cheese and munchkinery. Ergo, any DM who implements those rules will have no players.
... what? :smallconfused:

I must say, this a blatantly false statement, if I've ever seen one.
Oh, and full of lies. What's your problem, mister?

[herrhauptmann]

And to avoid these multitudes of headaches, it's not uncommon for a DM to offer up a middle ground. Allow Gestalt, but ban PrCs and even any form of multiclassing. Pick two 1-20s, one for each side, and stick with 'em.

Never heard of that happening...
Anyway...


Well, until you guys started talking about the BaB progression, I was pretty clear. Now, I'm confused. It sounded at first that a 1 fighter/1 Wizard had a CL or I guess EL of 1. If you stayed on this to 20, wouldn't you have the BaB of +20? Why would it be only ten?
I'm going to give you a gestalt character I was working on.
LF, LR, LW, LBab are fort, ref, will, and Base attack bonus for left side fo the build. LC is class for that side
RF, RR, RW, RBab are the same for the right side of the build. RC is class for that side
FF, FR, FW, FBab are the final numbers you use for the character at each level. When you want to calculate your saves and bab for a given level, just grab all the numbers out of the rightmost set of columns.
{table=Head]LC|LF|LR|LW|LBab|RC|RF|RR|RW|RBab|FF|FR|FW|FBab
Clr1|2.5|.33|2.5|.75|Ranger1|2.5|2.5|.33|1|2.5|2.5 |2.5|1
Clr2|.5|.33|.5|.75|Rgr2|.5|.5|.33|1|.5|.5|.5|1
Clr3|.5|.33|.5|.75|Brb1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr4|.5|.33|.5|.75|Brb2|.5|.33|.33|1|.5|.33|.5|1
Clr5|.5|.33|.5|.75|Ftr1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr6|.5|.33|.5|.75|Swd.Sage1|.33|2.5|2.5|.75|.5|2. 5|2.5|.75
[/table]
Making a level 6 character: Clr6//Rgr2/Brb2/Ftr1/Swdsage1
Fort=9. Reflex=5.5 round down to 5. Will=7. Base attack=5.75 round to 5.

All of these are using fractional saves and bab. Which is necessary for gestalt, and can be necessary if you do excessive multiclassing in a nongestalt character.
Good saves start at 2.5, and increment by .5. Bad saves start at .33, and increment at .33
Good bab starts at 1, and increments by 1.
Medium bab starts at .67, and increments by that number.
Bad bab (wizard) starts at .5, and increments by .5

Without fractional saves, a ftr2/barb2/rogue2/Exotic weapon master2 has a base reflex save of 3. A base will save of 0. And a fort save of 12. :smalleek:


edit:
Had to fix cleric and swordsage BAB. Remember, always round down for decimals.

[joca4christ]

Never heard of that happening...
Anyway...


I'm going to give you a gestalt character I was working on.
LF, LR, LW, LBab are fort, ref, will, and Base attack bonus for left side fo the build. LC is class for that side
RF, RR, RW, RBab are the same for the right side of the build. RC is class for that side
FF, FR, FW, FBab are the final numbers you use for the character at each level. When you want to calculate your saves and bab for a given level, just grab all the numbers out of the rightmost set of columns.
{table=Head]LC|LF|LR|LW|LBab|RC|RF|RR|RW|RBab|FF|FR|FW|FBab
Clr1|2.5|.33|2.5|.67|Ranger1|2.5|2.5|.33|1|2.5|2.5 |2.5|1
Clr2|.5|.33|.5|.67|Rgr2|.5|.5|.33|1|.5|.5|.5|1
Clr3|.5|.33|.5|.67|Brb1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr4|.5|.33|.5|.67|Brb2|.5|.33|.33|1|.5|.33|.5|1
Clr5|.5|.33|.5|.67|Ftr1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr6|.5|.33|.5|.67|Swd.Sage1|.33|2.5|2.5|.67|.5|2. 5|2.5|.67
[/table]
Making a level 6 character: Clr6//Rgr2/Brb2/Ftr1/Swdsage1
Fort=9. Reflex=5.5 round down to 5. Will=7. Base attack=5.67 round to 5.

All of these are using fractional saves and bab. Which is necessary for gestalt, and can be necessary if you do excessive multiclassing in a nongestalt character.
Good saves start at 2.5, and increment by .5. Bad saves start at .33, and increment at .33
Good bab starts at 1, and increments by 1.
Medium bab starts at .67, and increments by that number.
Bad bab (wizard) starts at .5, and increments by .5

Without fractional saves, a ftr2/barb2/rogue2/Exotic weapon master2 has a base reflex save of 3. A base will save of 0. And a fort save of 12. :smalleek:

Okay...less confused now, but still uncertain. Maybe because the bottom shelf version said that you take the best of fort, BaB, etc. I took it to mean the best of them, not a fraction of the best.

How do you determine the fractions? I'm not a math guy, I'm word guy, so some of the number crunching stuff goes over my head.

A simple gestalt, such as a swordsage//scout would still be fractions, or do you only use fractions when using more than two classes?
:smallconfused:

[VarianArdell]

Medium bab starts at .67, and increments by that number.


correction: Medium BAB starts at .75, not .67

[Swooper]

Okay...less confused now, but still uncertain. Maybe because the bottom shelf version said that you take the best of fort, BaB, etc. I took it to mean the best of them, not a fraction of the best.

How do you determine the fractions? I'm not a math guy, I'm word guy, so some of the number crunching stuff goes over my head.

A simple gestalt, such as a swordsage//scout would still be fractions, or do you only use fractions when using more than two classes?
:smallconfused:
Fractional bonuses is a variant from Unearthed Arcana, on the same page as gestalt rules and probably intended to be used together. It basically means that instead of gaining +1 BAB/save bonus at regular intervals, you gain a fraction at each level. Good saves advance by 1/2 each level and get a +2 at 1st class level. Poor saves advance by 1/3 each level. Base attack bonus advances by +1, +3/4 or +1/2 each level, for full, medium and poor base attack bonus classes respectively.

This avoids the silly interpretation that leads to figher 1/wizard 19//sorcerer 20 having +20 BAB as mentioned above, and generally makes the numbers much nicer.

[John Cribati]

... what? :smallconfused:

I must say, this a blatantly false statement, if I've ever seen one.
Oh, and full of lies. What's your problem, mister?

Oh, please. We play Gestalt because it's more powerful and broken than non-gestalt play (although it's broken in such a way that it actually ends up sort of balanced, if that makes any sense). Because having a Wizard with the Monk's saves, Bab, and HD, is better than having just a wizard. Gestalt is Cheese and Shenanigans with the least amount of effort; that's the reason we like it. Can we all stop pretending it isn't?

[Amnestic]

Oh, please. We play Gestalt because it's more powerful and broken than non-gestalt play (although it's broken in such a way that it actually ends up sort of balanced, if that makes any sense). Because having a Wizard with the Monk's saves, Bab, and HD, is better than having just a wizard. Gestalt is Cheese and Shenanigans with the least amount of effort; that's the reason we like it. Can we all stop pretending it isn't?

'We'? I wasn't aware you were psychic or spoke for the entire forum. Interesting.

[John Cribati]

'We'? I wasn't aware you were psychic or spoke for the entire forum. Interesting.

I do not speak for the entire forum. I speak for those of us who prefer to play in Gestalt games. Some people don't even like to play in gestalt games, so I'm obviously not speaking for them.

[NamelessNPC]

I'm going to give you a gestalt character I was working on.
LF, LR, LW, LBab are fort, ref, will, and Base attack bonus for left side fo the build. LC is class for that side
RF, RR, RW, RBab are the same for the right side of the build. RC is class for that side
FF, FR, FW, FBab are the final numbers you use for the character at each level. When you want to calculate your saves and bab for a given level, just grab all the numbers out of the rightmost set of columns.
{table=Head]LC|LF|LR|LW|LBab|RC|RF|RR|RW|RBab|FF|FR|FW|FBab
Clr1|2.5|.33|2.5|.67|Ranger1|2.5|2.5|.33|1|2.5|2.5 |2.5|1
Clr2|.5|.33|.5|.67|Rgr2|.5|.5|.33|1|.5|.5|.5|1
Clr3|.5|.33|.5|.67|Brb1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr4|.5|.33|.5|.67|Brb2|.5|.33|.33|1|.5|.33|.5|1
Clr5|.5|.33|.5|.67|Ftr1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr6|.5|.33|.5|.67|Swd.Sage1|.33|2.5|2.5|.67|.5|2. 5|2.5|.67
[/table]
Making a level 6 character: Clr6//Rgr2/Brb2/Ftr1/Swdsage1
Fort=9. Reflex=5.5 round down to 5. Will=7. Base attack=5.67 round to 5.

All of these are using fractional saves and bab. Which is necessary for gestalt, and can be necessary if you do excessive multiclassing in a nongestalt character.
Good saves start at 2.5, and increment by .5. Bad saves start at .33, and increment at .33
Good bab starts at 1, and increments by 1.
Medium bab starts at .67, and increments by that number.
Bad bab (wizard) starts at .5, and increments by .5

Without fractional saves, a ftr2/barb2/rogue2/Exotic weapon master2 has a base reflex save of 3. A base will save of 0. And a fort save of 12. :smalleek:

Actually, I thought you only got 2.5 in a save the first time you took a level in a class with a "good" save, and then you only added 0.5. Because doing it your way gets you, for example, a base will save of 7 for a lvl 6 character, which is pretty imbalanced.

[herrhauptmann]

correction: Medium BAB starts at .75, not .67
It has been pointed out that I added my BAB incorrectly for my Cleric and Swordsage levels, that is correct. It is Start at .75, and increment by .75 each level. Ending at 15 bab over 20 levels.
Turns out, I'm dumb and I've been doing bab wrong for my clerics, :D
Please listen to Varian Ardell.
Post above fixed.


Okay...less confused now, but still uncertain. Maybe because the bottom shelf version said that you take the best of fort, BaB, etc. I took it to mean the best of them, not a fraction of the best.

How do you determine the fractions? I'm not a math guy, I'm word guy, so some of the number crunching stuff goes over my head.

A simple gestalt, such as a swordsage//scout would still be fractions, or do you only use fractions when using more than two classes?
:smallconfused:
Fractions is a variant rule, it's not necessary in a low power game where most people will play a single class from 1-20. In games with lots of multiclassing, it can become far more vital. In gestalt, it's pretty much a necessity.
The progression rate for all the classes and prestige classes is actually fairly simple, and very consistent. Look at the numbers in any class in the PHB, if you calculate it in fractions like I've done above, you'll still see saves for a single classed character ending at 12 or 6 at level 20. BAB will be either 10, 15, or 20, depending on which class he is.

Actually, I thought you only got 2.5 in a save the first time you took a level in a class with a "good" save, and then you only added 0.5. Because doing it your way gets you, for example, a base will save of 7 for a lvl 6 character, which is pretty imbalanced.
When multiclassing, saves always improve a lot at level 1 of the new class (whether it's character level 1 or not). It's only in skill points where you get a huge difference depending on which class you took at level 1. In my sample above, the character gets skill points of ( 4x(2+int) ) for cleric OR ( 4x(6+int) ) for ranger at level 1. Obviously Ranger skill points are higher. Though he still draws from both skill lists.
At the later levels: At lvl 3 when he gets cleric//barb. He gets (2+int) for cleric OR (4+int) for Barb. Still drawing from both skill lists.
At lvl 5 he gets 2+int for both fighter and cleric.
At lvl 6 he gets (2+int) for cleric OR (6+int) for swordsage.

Nah, that's not unbalanced. Unbalanced is a 16th level character with a Base 21 Fort, 13 Will, and 2 Reflex. :smalleek: Without fractional saves. Build went something like Cleric 1, Barb 2, Ftr 2, Dwf Def 2, Pious Templar 4, Deepwarden 2, Dwarf paragon 3.
If only I had taken steadfast endurance. I kept rolling a 1 for my most important fort saves. Mind you, with a 26 Con, I could've passed my fort saves even with a 1. Even on the overpowering encounters. But for that stupid rule that you fail saves on a 1.

edit: Fixed things

[ImperatorK]

Oh, please. We play Gestalt because it's more powerful and broken than non-gestalt play (although it's broken in such a way that it actually ends up sort of balanced, if that makes any sense). Because having a Wizard with the Monk's saves, Bab, and HD, is better than having just a wizard. Gestalt is Cheese and Shenanigans with the least amount of effort; that's the reason we like it. Can we all stop pretending it isn't?
Prove it. I want to see evidence.
(Note that your opinion isn't evidence. It's just opinion. Also your personal experience is just one exception. My personal experience is quite contrary.)

[Socratov]

Oh, please. We play Gestalt because it's more powerful and broken than non-gestalt play (although it's broken in such a way that it actually ends up sort of balanced, if that makes any sense). Because having a Wizard with the Monk's saves, Bab, and HD, is better than having just a wizard. Gestalt is Cheese and Shenanigans with the least amount of effort; that's the reason we like it. Can we all stop pretending it isn't?

sure it's one part cheese, awesomeness and shenanigans (I am willing to admit that is nice and funny), though another part is making either a low tier class actually work, try some interesting concepts, or making a character concept which will rely on some class abilities which are normally just a side benefit, but will get empowered when gestalted with something boosting it. It also gives you possibilities to use classes together which in a non gestalt build just don't work becuase you need too much of either class. Athird optios is even when you play with only a very few players, which need more versitality then the number of non-gestalt characters can possibly offer. In that case it enables the players to get that little bit more versitality to still be able to actually get things done in a campaign...

[John Cribati]

sure it's one part cheese, awesomeness and shenanigans (I am willing to admit that is nice and funny), though another part is making either a low tier class actually work, try some interesting concepts, or making a character concept which will rely on some class abilities which are normally just a side benefit, but will get empowered when gestalted with something boosting it. It also gives you possibilities to use classes together which in a non gestalt build just don't work becuase you need too much of either class. Athird optios is even when you play with only a very few players, which need more versitality then the number of non-gestalt characters can possibly offer. In that case it enables the players to get that little bit more versitality to still be able to actually get things done in a campaign...

Emphasis mine.

4/5 of the reasons you cited point to it being more powerful than non-gestalt play.

[ImperatorK]

Emphasis mine.

4/5 of the reasons you cited point to it being more powerful than non-gestalt play.
Uhhh... so?
It's obvious that it will be more powerful, it gives more options. Again - So what?

[herrhauptmann]

Stuff


Lots of stuff


A little stuff

Guys, go set up a separate thread for the argument if you care that much.


Lets just try and help out the new guy here. [/referee]

[John Cribati]

Uhhh... so?
It's obvious that it will be more powerful, it gives more options. Again - So what?

I made a broad statement that the appeal of Gestalt is the fact that it's so powerful. I received a list of reasons why people like to play Gestalt, and 4/5 of them explicitly have to do with its high power level, and the 5th implicitly so. Essentially, my point has been proven.

[ImperatorK]

I made a broad statement that the appeal of Gestalt is the fact that it's so powerful. I received a list of reasons why people like to play Gestalt, and 4/5 of them explicitly have to do with its high power level, and the 5th implicitly so. Essentially, my point has been proven.
No. You said that gestalt is only for cheese and munchkinery and that any DM who implements those rules will have no players. That is false.

[John Cribati]

No. You said that gestalt is only for cheese and munchkinery and that any DM who implements those rules will have no players. That is false.

People play Gestalt because of all the powerful builds you can make with it. Cheese.

With minimal effort, you can make an incredibly powerful character. With a tiny bit more, you can make a broken character. And it's ridiculously easy. Munchkinery.

I can understand forbidding classes from sources that you don't have, but I still know any DM that forbids multiclassing in Gestalt on account of it being "broken" is obviously misguided, because Gestalt is broken by design, and it is that brokenness that draws Gestalt players to it. Hardly anybody wants to play a straight 20 levels of... anything below tier 3 (unless they do it for the challenge or something) in a regular game, and even then, people still PrC out of Tier 1 Classes like the Wizard depending on what they want their build to be. Removing that capability from a system that's more or less about powergaming is totally ridiculous.

Okay, you know what? Here's what I'll do. Envision the following scenario.


You see an ad for a D&D Gestalt game in your area. You decide to call and check it out. You already have an idea for a sick build in mind, and you ask this supposed DM about it. He says "No. You have to take both sides straight. No multiclassing. No Prestige Classes, no nothing."

If one person is totally and truly willing to play in this DM's game under these rules, and posts such, I will retract my statement.

[Salanmander]

I'm going to give you a gestalt character I was working on.
LF, LR, LW, LBab are fort, ref, will, and Base attack bonus for left side fo the build. LC is class for that side
RF, RR, RW, RBab are the same for the right side of the build. RC is class for that side
FF, FR, FW, FBab are the final numbers you use for the character at each level. When you want to calculate your saves and bab for a given level, just grab all the numbers out of the rightmost set of columns.
{table=Head]LC|LF|LR|LW|LBab|RC|RF|RR|RW|RBab|FF|FR|FW|FBab
Clr1|2.5|.33|2.5|.75|Ranger1|2.5|2.5|.33|1|2.5|2.5 |2.5|1
Clr2|.5|.33|.5|.75|Rgr2|.5|.5|.33|1|.5|.5|.5|1
Clr3|.5|.33|.5|.75|Brb1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr4|.5|.33|.5|.75|Brb2|.5|.33|.33|1|.5|.33|.5|1
Clr5|.5|.33|.5|.75|Ftr1|2.5|.33|.33|1|2.5|.33|.5|1
Clr6|.5|.33|.5|.75|Swd.Sage1|.33|2.5|2.5|.75|.5|2. 5|2.5|.75
[/table]
Making a level 6 character: Clr6//Rgr2/Brb2/Ftr1/Swdsage1
Fort=9. Reflex=5.5 round down to 5. Will=7. Base attack=5.75 round to 5.

All of these are using fractional saves and bab. Which is necessary for gestalt, and can be necessary if you do excessive multiclassing in a nongestalt character.
Good saves start at 2.5, and increment by .5. Bad saves start at .33, and increment at .33
Good bab starts at 1, and increments by 1.
Medium bab starts at .67, and increments by that number.
Bad bab (wizard) starts at .5, and increments by .5

Without fractional saves, a ftr2/barb2/rogue2/Exotic weapon master2 has a base reflex save of 3. A base will save of 0. And a fort save of 12. :smalleek:


edit:
Had to fix cleric and swordsage BAB. Remember, always round down for decimals.



Okay...less confused now, but still uncertain. Maybe because the bottom shelf version said that you take the best of fort, BaB, etc. I took it to mean the best of them, not a fraction of the best.

How do you determine the fractions? I'm not a math guy, I'm word guy, so some of the number crunching stuff goes over my head.

A simple gestalt, such as a swordsage//scout would still be fractions, or do you only use fractions when using more than two classes?
:smallconfused:

So, the way it works is that you /do/ take the largest increase in BAB, but this can lead to confusion because the tables in the PHB etc. are basically rounded down. We're used to seeing wizard BAB like this:

+0
+1
+1
+2
+2
+3

etc.

It goes up by 1 every odd level. For gestalt it's a good idea to instead say it goes up by 0.5 every level, so you get:

+0.5
+1
+1.5
+2
+2.5
+3

etc.

This makes it so that every level of wizard gives the /same/ increase in BAB. Basically, low BAB gives +0.5 every level, medium gives +0.75 every level, and high gives +1 every level. Then you round down at the very end.

If you're just taking two classes 1-20 (like swordsage//scout), you can just use the better table value at whatever level for BAB and saves, because you're not going to encounter problems from the rounding unless you're switching classes. However, you always /can/ use fractional: it's more exact.

Edit: What herrhauptmann was showing on his table was the increase at each level of BAB and saves, in case that wasn't clear. Although I'm going to have to disagree with him on the saves: typically when using fractional BAB and saves, you only get the +2 bonus at the start of a strong save once per save.


I made a broad statement that the appeal of Gestalt is the fact that it's so powerful. I received a list of reasons why people like to play Gestalt, and 4/5 of them explicitly have to do with its high power level, and the 5th implicitly so. Essentially, my point has been proven.

If you want a direct counterexample, here's one: One of the reasons that I like gestalt a lot is that it makes /less/ powerful characters feel more /unique/. I have the most fun when my character feels uniquely capable. In order to get to the same level of uniqueness as a gestalt character without gestalt, you need close to twice as many levels, which is going to result in a more powerful character. Because the game breaks down and bogs down at high levels, I often prefer to play a lower level gestalt character.

So I actually enjoy gestalt because it allows me to have a high level of uniqueness on a less powerful character.

[Amnestic]

People play Gestalt because of all the powerful builds you can make with it. Cheese.


Do you consider those who choose human as a race for their character 'cheesy'?

Edit: And for the record, I'd be perfectly happy playing in a Gestalt game of 1-20 base classes on both sides.

[Bovine Colonel]

Er...the way I understand it, while cheese = optimization, optimization != cheese. Cheese makes use of a loophole, an apparently unintended combination of rules, or a badly written rule. Optimization, on the other hand, is simply making a powerful build. As for munchkinery, I believe that's a combination of cheese, regular optimization, and possibly cheating, coupled with a lack of interest in the other aspects of the game.

Someone smack me if I'm wrong.

Also, Herpestidae, I'd be willing to play a melee 20//caster 20. Or any single classed gestalt combination, really, if it's Pathfinder. Except possibly Monk//Paladin.

[Salanmander]

Okay, you know what? Here's what I'll do. Envision the following scenario.


You see an ad for a D&D Gestalt game in your area. You decide to call and check it out. You already have an idea for a sick build in mind, and you ask this supposed DM about it. He says "No. You have to take both sides straight. No multiclassing. No Prestige Classes, no nothing."

If one person is totally and truly willing to play in this DM's game under these rules, and posts such, I will retract my statement.

Cleric//Monk. Done.

Lots of interesting options, a playstyle significantly different from either of them, and /very/ difficult to get outside of gestalt. You need to use sacred fist and be fairly high level before it starts to come together nicely. Oh, and both cleric and monk have interesting high level abilities (SR? yes please).

[ImperatorK]

{Scrubbed}
^
I stand by my statement. :smallannoyed:

[herrhauptmann]

Edit: What herrhauptmann was showing on his table was the increase at each level of BAB and saves, in case that wasn't clear. Although I'm going to have to disagree with him on the saves: typically when using fractional BAB and saves, you only get the +2 bonus at the start of a strong save once per save.

When one person tells me I'm wrong, and I disagree; I'll tell them I'm correct.
If two people tell me I'm wrong, I go back to the books to doublecheck.

Fractional saves are covered on page 73 of Unearthed Arcana (also here (http://www.ravengate.org/d20srd/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)). According to what I'm reading, I'm still correct when it comes to adding up saves using fractions.

Sample nongestalt character of Cleric5/fighter2. Normally, would have a Fort 7, Reflex 1, Will 4. With fractional, it becomes Fort 7.5 (round to 7), Reflex 2.33 (round to 2), and Will 5.167 (round to 5)
I've seen nothing under the Fractional or Gestalt rules that says that there's a variant to the variant when using Gestalt.

[Salanmander]

When one person tells me I'm wrong, if I disagree, and tell them I'm correct.
If two people tell me I'm wrong, I go back to the books to doublecheck.

Fractional saves are covered on page 73 of Unearthed Arcana (also here (http://www.ravengate.org/d20srd/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm)). According to what I'm reading, I'm still correct when it comes to adding up saves using fractions.

Sample nongestalt character of Cleric5/fighter2. Normally, would have a Fort 7, Reflex 1, Will 4. With fractional, it becomes Fort 7.5 (round to 7), Reflex 2.33 (round to 2), and Will 5.167 (round to 5)
I've seen nothing under the Fractional or Gestalt rules that says that there's a variant to the variant when using Gestalt.

Sure enough, right you are. I guess that's just a houserule I've always used.

[John Cribati]

Edit: And for the record, I'd be perfectly happy playing in a Gestalt game of 1-20 base classes on both sides.

Fine then. I retract. I was wrong.

Have a nice day, everyone. :smallsmile:

[joca4christ]

Salanmander----
Your explanation makes the most sense. Now I understand the use of fractional points. Thank you for spelling it out for me. :smallbiggrin:

I definitely can see how gestalt be cheese. When I was asking about it, I'm not wanting to break the game, or even be OP. I just look at character concepts and go..."Now, that would be cool!"

Mainly because I like the precepts of some character classes...trapfinding and disabling in the rogue for example...in combo with features of a different class...such as say, a favored soul. (A favored soul of Olidimarra anyone?) The thing is, to play this traditionally, you lose out somehow by multiclassing. But if you could combine what you like about the two...and not be game breaking...that would appeal to me hugely.

I brought up gestalt to my DM, explaining the basic principles outlined at the very beginning of this thread. His question was, "What are it's drawbacks?" Had to be honest and say I really didn't see any, hence the desire to do so.

As it stands, I am going to have to be content with my build as it stands. I think I will continue to advance only swordsage, even though I'll be missing out on additional skirmish d6 and other scout goodies. If I play the maneuvers right, I'll still be able to be good at what I want my character to be good at. He isn't the primary damage dealer. (When we first started making our PCs, he was, as we didn't really know who/what else everyone else was going to play. Turns out we've got a tank, so I can be the scout ahead, move around the battle trying not to get hurt, guy. (Even though at this point I have more hit points than our tank, and more AC. :smallcool:)

Again, I appreciate every one's assistance.

[Salanmander]

Salanmander----
Your explanation makes the most sense. Now I understand the use of fractional points. Thank you for spelling it out for me. :smallbiggrin:

...

I brought up gestalt to my DM, explaining the basic principles outlined at the very beginning of this thread. His question was, "What are it's drawbacks?" Had to be honest and say I really didn't see any, hence the desire to do so.


Glad to be of help. =)

As for your response to your DM, I would say something like this: "It doesn't really have a drawback, just like being level 7 doesn't have a drawback over being level 6. All it means is that we have more abilities and face tougher challenges."

If your DM has ever started a game above level 1, this is likely to make at least a little bit of sense to him.

Edit: However, it definitely needs to be something the whole party does if anyone does it. If you were proposing that just you get this benefit, your DM was right in shooting it down.

[Taelas]

Herpestidae, it is a common variant to allow a partial gestalt system for tiers. For example, JaronK suggests allowing tier 3 or 4 to gestalt with NPC classes (Adept, Commoner, Expert, Warrior), tier 4 or 5 to gestalt with another class of their tiers (or Adepts), and tier 1 or 2 to not gestalt at all.

[joca4christ]

Yeah...if we were doing it as a group...maybe. As it stands, the DM is our most experienced gamer. I'm second, then we have two relatively new players. We're gonna keep it simple.

My DM actually has been more than a little fair with me. I've teeter-tottered back and forth between my character concepts. First I was going to be a straight scout, with a level or two dip in fighter. Then, I thought it'd be cool to be an unarmed combatant, so I was going to take a level or two dip into monk. The DM was even willing to let me revamp Ascetic Rogue into Ascetic Scout so that my monk and scout levels would stack for the monk's unarmed strike progression.

Then, of course, all heck broke loose. I kept reading about ToB here on the forums and so I downloaded the PDF to see what the fuss was all about. Bam! Swordsage love ensued. Once that happened, I kept teetering back and forth between scout/monk and scout/swordsage. (I had pretty much mapped out the scout/monk to at least level 13 (starting level 6) but I really liked the idea of being able to use some of the maneuvers listed for ss.)

This is what we've settled on. I can use the variant for the unarmed swordsage, and I'm getting free improved unarmed strike (because the DM and I agree that it would be silly to give him the monk's unarmed strike progression without giving him this feat for free.) My problem now is that I really like some of the features of the scout class. But I can't have these AND advance to far as a swordsage. Multiclassing has its penalties.

I shouldn't complain. My DM is incredibly gracious. His houserules include no XP penalties for multiclassing, no cross-class skill issues, (essentially anything is a class skill and he gives a +2 bonus for competancy if the skill was taken during that level.)

I just wanted to have my cake and eat it too. At any rate, I think I will enjoy running my little Hadozee. It'll be great fun. :smallbiggrin:

[randomhero00]

Gestalting is way less powerful than one might think (with a few exceptions that synergize too well). So long as the super OP exceptions are outlawed, gestalting barely changes your power. It simply makes you more versatile.

IMO if everyone is playing a tier 1 and you want a tier 4 or 5, I think gestalting with another T4 or T5 is fine.

Again though it depends on how far to the extremes you take it. You could just as well gestalt with another similar class and get almost no benefit. Its really just like anything in DnD 3.5, if you min max you can easily trump anything.

[mootoall]

To clarify how Gestalt BAB is actually supposed to work without fractional BAB, all you have to remember is that the tables are cumulative, not additive. So the fighter/wizard//sorcerer build would have +1 BAB on the left side and +1 BAB on the right side. Therefore, the character would have +1 BAB at ECL 2.

[John Cribati]

To clarify how Gestalt BAB is actually supposed to work without fractional BAB, all you have to remember is that the tables are cumulative, not additive. So the fighter/wizard//sorcerer build would have +1 BAB on the left side and +1 BAB on the right side. Therefore, the character would have +1 BAB at ECL 2.

We're sort of missing something here. The "reasoning" behind a 20 Bab build on Fighter1/Wizard19//Sorcerer20 is essentially due to buggering with the meaning of the word "progression." On level 1//1, fighter Bab increases (i.e. progresses) by 1, and Sorcerer Bab does not progress, so you take the Fighter's Bab, which would be the "better progression". On level 2//2, Wizard Bab does not progress, and Sorcerer Bab progresses by 1, so you'd take the sorcerer Bab. Then on level 3//3, Sorc Bab stays the same, and Wizard Bab progresses, so you take the Wizard Bab. Ad infinitum. Same thing with Save progression.

[begooler]

The fact that the sidebar on fractional BAB and saves in Unearthed Arcana is smack in the middle of the rules for gestalt has always suggested to me that they were trying to say: "Hey guys, this would be a really smart situation to use this."

[herrhauptmann]

The fact that the sidebar on fractional BAB and saves in Unearthed Arcana is smack in the middle of the rules for gestalt has always suggested to me that they were trying to say: "Hey guys, this would be a really smart situation to use this."

You and your logic!!
We'll have none of your kind here! :smallbiggrin:

[John Cribati]

The fact that the sidebar on fractional BAB and saves in Unearthed Arcana is smack in the middle of the rules for gestalt has always suggested to me that they were trying to say: "Hey guys, this would be a really smart situation to use this."

I don't disagree with you, but emphasis mine nonetheless. DM's word trumps rulebook. If he doesn't use fractional... it's his choice.

[begooler]

Yep. Suggesting is exactly it. It's like they're saying, "Well, DM, it's your call and whatever you say is law, but don't come crying to us when you have a party of full double casters with perfect BAB."

[Taelas]

I honestly doubt it matters whether a Wizard//Sorcerer has 20 BAB or not.

Mootoall, that's not what "cumulative" means. (In fact, in this context, 'cumulative' and 'additive' are identical -- they mean the same thing.) BAB and saves aren't cumulative (except when you add two different progressions together) unless you use the fractional BAB and saves, where it breaks it up by level.

[The Rabbler]

My problem now is that I really like some of the features of the scout class. But I can't have these AND advance to far as a swordsage. Multiclassing has its penalties.


If you don't mind me asking, what is it that you like about the scout class that you wish the swordsage could do? Is it the skirmish? If not, I'm sure there's another way of building your character to be effective.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

The partial gestalt system for tiers never seemed right to me. Starting at level one, which would you rather play, a Beguiler//Adept or a Sorcerer?

[Salanmander]

The partial gestalt system for tiers never seemed right to me. Starting at level one, which would you rather play, a Beguiler//Adept or a Sorcerer?

Sorcerer. But some days I would prefer a Beguiler//Warrior.

[joca4christ]

If you don't mind me asking, what is it that you like about the scout class that you wish the swordsage could do? Is it the skirmish? If not, I'm sure there's another way of building your character to be effective.

Things like the bonus feats, the increased skirmish/ac, getting a higher speed later, hide in plain sight, blindsense, and freedom of movement at later levels.

I realize that there are probably feats and what not that do similar things, but as it is, I have precious few feats to begin with. Already have my eye on a couple from the ToB. (Mainly Shadow Blade and Gloom Shadow.) It would be nice to get Hinder and Improved Skirmish and Combat Expertise for free, know what I mean?

Like I said...we'll just run him as is right now. If I don't like it, or if it doesn't work, he'll either die or get retired. :smallsmile:

[The Rabbler]

Things like the bonus feats, the increased skirmish/ac, getting a higher speed later, hide in plain sight, blindsense, and freedom of movement at later levels.

I realize that there are probably feats and what not that do similar things, but as it is, I have precious few feats to begin with. Already have my eye on a couple from the ToB. (Mainly Shadow Blade and Gloom Shadow.) It would be nice to get Hinder and Improved Skirmish and Combat Expertise for free, know what I mean?

Like I said...we'll just run him as is right now. If I don't like it, or if it doesn't work, he'll either die or get retired. :smallsmile:

In that case, good luck with him. He sounds like an interesting character, to say the least.