Social Skills...on a Wizard?(Can you make a wizard a political manipulator?)

[Maho-Tsukai]

As the title says....how can I sucssesfully make a wizard that is a political manipulator? What feats are there that can slap social skills(prefably bluff, diplomacy and sense motive) on my wizard? Likewise, how can I make up for the not uber-high charisma in ways other then items? Are there any useful obscure spells for a political-manipulator wizard? Any ways to get Glibness on my list without resorting to Extra spell?

So, I ask, do any of you here know what I can do to make a wizard who excels at political manipulation?

[Eldariel]

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer -> would do this really easily, at the cost of one Wizard level.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, but isn't Unseen Seer more about the stealth and sneak attack aspects of the rogue then the social manipulator ones? I don't really want or need stealth and SA. I just wanted social skills on a wizard and frankly if I can do that without the PrC, roge dip and MAD(That path would require me to also invest in dex, and I am already investing in Int AND cha...so yeah.) that would be ideal. However, that build would be viable if there was some way to get Int to social skills but I don't know of any way to do that as of now...dose Factotum give something like that?

[BlueInc]

Play a sorcerer and/or specialize in enchantment spells.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Sorc is tier 2(Not that thats bad, I just want to make a non-high wis, tier 1 world dominator) and bland as all heck(no class features), so it's out of the question. Enchantment I was planing on using anyway but I would need social skills even with it as the flaw with enchantment is that without social skills the "dominate person the king" plan fails flat on it's face until you get mind rape, which is a 9th. In fact, the whole reason I want social skills on a wizard in the first place is to actually make Dominate the king pre-mind rape a viable tactic.

[dextercorvia]

Sorcerer has class features: Spells, Metamagic Specialist, and the ability to multiclass and lose nothing.

[Herabec]

The big bad of my campaign actually came to total political power through use of Charm Person, Dominate and Rings of Domination.

Was quite fun, really. XD

[Maho-Tsukai]

Sorc is still tier 2 though, so it still fails for what I want, here. Also, Dominate fails to work unless you have social skills, as you need to decieve people to keep your ruise up and/or convince them the king is not dominated(as dominate has very noticable effects)...both of which require some bluff and/or diplomacy checks.

[ericgrau]

I know it often falls flat due to DM forgetfullness, but shouldn't any king rich enough to blow thousands of gp per day have a mind blank and so on? I mean a basic castle is a million, and he'll probably have a heck of a lot more than that if it's a large kingdom. So you're limited to minor kings and lords.

[Shadowknight12]

You make a lot of threads on the same subject.


Sorc is tier 2(Not that thats bad, I just want to make a non-high wis, tier 1 world dominator) and bland as all heck(no class features), so it's out of the question. Enchantment I was planing on using anyway but I would need social skills even with it as the flaw with enchantment is that without social skills the "dominate person the king" plan fails flat on it's face until you get mind rape, which is a 9th. In fact, the whole reason I want social skills on a wizard in the first place is to actually make Dominate the king pre-mind rape a viable tactic.

Martial Adept (Leading the Attack) gives you Diplomacy as a class skill and a 1/encounter attack that boosts your troops.

[Herabec]

I know it often falls flat due to DM forgetfullness, but shouldn't any king rich enough to blow thousands of gp per day have a mind blank and so on?

I mean a basic castle is a million, and he'll probably have a heck of a lot more than that if it's a large kingdom.

This assumes that the king in question is in a high-magic campaign and is constantly alert for any magic-user who might dare attempt to alter his mental state.

Most kings are probably too fat, lazy and stupid to think "Hey, I should spend a couple of thousand gold per day to hire someone to Mind Blank me, on the off chance a wizard tries to cast some hokey-dokey spell at me."

:P

[BlueInc]

I only said sorcerer because a friend of mine is playing a LE one a campaign and having a blast manipulating the heck out of his allies AND his enemies.

currently, he's getting a person to pay for his own assassination by telling him the money is going to be used to kill a rival of his. We just hit level four, his bluff check is through the roof, and he didn't get alter self until last session.

[ericgrau]

This assumes that the king in question is in a high-magic campaign and is constantly alert for any magic-user who might dare attempt to alter his mental state.

Most kings are probably too fat, lazy and stupid to think "Hey, I should spend a couple of thousand gold per day to hire someone to Mind Blank me, on the off chance a wizard tries to cast some hokey-dokey spell at me."

:P
That's the default, by the DMG, for anyone rich enough. And major kings are rich enough. If not then someone would have scried and died the monarchy long ago. In the D&D world it's like getting locks on the door. Everyone major does it.

[Amnestic]

This assumes that the king in question is in a high-magic campaign and is constantly alert for any magic-user who might dare attempt to alter his mental state.

Most kings are probably too fat, lazy and stupid to think "Hey, I should spend a couple of thousand gold per day to hire someone to Mind Blank me, on the off chance a wizard tries to cast some hokey-dokey spell at me."

:P

With wizards, sorcerers and all manner of magic user being so prevalent on the side of Evil-with-a-Capital-E, such kings are not likely to last long at all. Chances are that said kings would be either dead or in someone else's control long before you got there.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I make threads about the same subject because I have yet to get a way to do what I want. So I will keep making them until I find that way or I am 100%convinced that one dose not exsist.

[BlueInc]

I should also point out, the difference between tier one and tier two is not that massive. The primary difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is there ability to prepare for situations; if you already know what you want to do (manipulate people) then you already know what spells to take to be ready to do what you want.

Just my two cents.

[Shadowknight12]

I make threads about the same subject because I have yet to get a way to do what I want. So I will keep making them until I get that answer or I am 100% convinced that one dose not exsist.

So instead of keeping one thread with the requirements that you want, your goals and personal tastes, and then asking people to help you realise the concept, you make a thread for every individual problem and conundrum you encounter?

At least this is an online forum and no actual paper is being wasted...

[Maho-Tsukai]

But that dose not change the fact I am looking for a tier 1 answer, not a tier 2 one.

As for just making one massive thread, I never thought of doing that, thought it's a better idea then my current method of attack. The only issue is bumping is not allowed and since necromancy is forbidden when it dies it will stay dead....hmm....

[ImperatorK]

So you basically want 9th level spells and skills? The answer is quite easy - Beguiler.

EDIT: Tier 1? Wizard//Factotum gestalt.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

If you don't mind a minor delay in your casting progression, a level of Factotum gives you all skills as class skills and the ability to add your formidable Int score to any skill check a few times per encounter. Depending on your alignment and whether your DM okays it, Prestige Bard would make the social skills class skills, add all of the nice skill-boosting spells like glibness and improvisation to your spell list, and give you bardic music which can be used for many things (buffing minions, casting spells for free through Lyric Spell, and more), though it loses casting at 1st level.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, Factotum dip could work, here....and the one CL loss would be mitigated by Int to social skills, so yeah.

[ericgrau]

Once you get into high levels you can get a circlet of persuasion for a +3 to charisma checks and a wand of glibness. DC 20 use magic device check to use, but if you fail by less than 10 and don't roll a 1 all you have to do is try again. After all it's 10 minuets per level so you can cast it ahead of time. Heck you can even put the circlet on and take it off again if you need the head slot. So that leaves only a +7 modifier before the circlet. If you dip 1 level of loremaster you can get use magic device as a class skill without losing caster progression. The only pre-req that you won't have already costs you a single feat. Heck put it into knowledge (nobility & royalty). Then for your level 1 loremaster secret grab a bonus feat, and bam you basically just got a PrC for free.

[Amnestic]

True, but after the Factotum dip the social skills would no longer be class skills, no? Or have I been playing under the false, NWN-induced mode of play that class skills are only class skills for you while your leveling up in that class?

Having a class skill once (e.g. Factotum dip) always makes it a class skill for determining the maximum ranks you can have in the skill. However they still cost 2 skill points to get 1 rank if you went back to Wizard.

The perfect combination of course is the Able Learner feat (all skills are 1 point=1 rank) plus Factotum 1 dip (all skills=always class skill).

[erikun]

Factotum 1, Human Paragon 1, or Expert 1 with the Able Learner feat gets you exactly what you want - you can have up to max skill ranks in whatever skills you want, at 1 skill point per rank. You can do it without Able Learner, but you'll be spending double skill points for the cross-class skills.

You might want to check the skill lists of other tier 1 classes (Archivist, Artificer, Erudite) to see if they have the skills you want. For that matter, Archivist might work better than Wizard for your concept, given that you want obviously "Evil" spells as well.

There is an Enchanter specialist variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants) that gives up bonus feats in exchange for the Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive skills added to their class skill list. A Psion (Telepath) has those skills as class skills as well (except Intimidate), but you don't seem to want tier 2 classes.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see. In that case, that works very well for what I want to do. It gets me Bluff, Diplomacy and Sense Motive, which are the three I wanted, plus Intimidate as a nice bonus. Also, it gives me Int to skills(even if it can only be used a limited number of time per day) to mitigate the not so high cha-score. If only there was a +int and + cha race that was LA+0 and not the cheesetastic dragonwrought Kobald.

[Caliphbubba]

Human Paragon I think may be of great use to you. Go Human Pargon, pick your 8 class skills and take Able Learner at first level. Get your level of wizard, finish out Human Paragon to re-coup your feat investment and get a +2 to your Cha or Int. and Only lose one caster level to boot.

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Kantolin]

Stepping into Ruathar gets you diplomacy and sense motive.

You can use Human Paragon, half-elf Paragon, or Brass/Copper/Dreen Half-dragon paragon to get access to them as well, at the cost of a caster level. Human paragon then advances spelclasting for 2 and 3, while Half-elf's level 2 advances spellcasting and boosts your existant-boost to social skills by 1.

Mindbender and Apostle of Peace also get it for you (Why on earth do Apostles of peace get bluff?)

Any of these, perhaps mixed with the Able Learner feat for your human/half-elf/half-orc/azurin characters will work for you.

[Amnestic]

If you're all right with dipping, you may also want to consider Dragonfire Adept 1 with the Beguiling Influence invocation. Offers you an untyped +6 to Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate checks that lasts for 24 hours. Also has the four 'social' skills as class skills too, for the record.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I see, so human Paragon can get me bluff, diplomacy AND sense motive? Also, I never considered Archivist due to not being able to easily obtain Dominate Person, though I suppose that for more evil-themed spells it would be a better entry and may already have Diplomacy. Is there any way for an Archivist to not have to rely on domain scrolls to get Dominate Person? If so then an Human Archivist/Human Paragon taking Able Learner and Acdemic Priest at 1st level(to make it so I don't need wisdom) may do everything I want better then a wizard due to archivists getting more overtly evil spells.

[Doktor Per]

You're going about this all wrong! (OK, you're not going about this all wrong, I just wanted to open with that) There's nothing wrong with a social trickery mastery wizard. He's just bringing more calculated and methodical approach to everything. Like a spy, check out Burn Notice. At any rate, you start up with 1 level in Bard.

This gives you: Skills and Bardic Knowledge (a good manipulator knows his opposition). You'll want to invest in Sleight of Hand, there's a skill trick in it for you, which lets you conceal spell casting.

Then while you work on your skills, you also need to finely tune your spell selection. You're a manipulator, you're not a spell slinging idiot. Detect thoughts, friendly face, reflective disguises, voice of the dragon (4th level wizard spell, +10 on all social rolypolies) the works. There's a spell which let's you make a programmed group of humanoid looking illusions. Spells that don't directly affect others are the best because there's no one to point at you for trying to "put them under a spell." This is also why you must invest in Sleight of Hand.

Even consider becoming a focused specialist. Your go to schools should be Divination, Illusion or Enchantment. It really depends on which approach to the "master manipulator" you want to emphasize.

Ruathar is an excellent suggestion as well, not only does it make elves like you more, you expand your own lifespan, by making people like you which is pretty devious.

[erikun]

Is there any way for an Archivist to not have to rely on domain scrolls to get Dominate Person?
Divine Bard can do Dominate Person, and as a 4th level spell rather than 5th, but doesn't have Dominate Monster.

[randomhero00]

Sure level up high enough...then force others to do your will, either through direct magical force or a controlled intermediary that does have good skill points and charisma :)

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and Divine Bard scrolls are easir to find then domain scrolls? Yeah...right....I was more hopeing for a way to get Dominate Person without having to rely on rare scrolls from obscure classes and domains...Perhaps Contemplative for the Domination Domain? I would use Dracolyte instead since I think you can take it earler then contemplative if it did not have horrid prerequsits(some aweful feats.) though having a baby dragon following you around and the ability to summon a dragon as capstones are both pretty awesome.

Also, Doktor Per, you have good tips but I don't see how a Bard dip is better then a Factotum dip. Bard gives you all the skills you need, plus bard spellcasting(which your neglecting), bardic music(which your also neglecting) and bardic knowldage which good, but based on bard level, last time I checked..so yeah. Factotum gives you all the skills bard dose(INCLUDING slight of hand), as well as the ability to get int to any skill check a limited number of times per day, which would be far more useful on this character then the level-dependent bardic knowldage and other bardic powers that your not bothering to level up.

I do however, agree that slight of hand plus that skill trick are both useful, though a Factotum/Wizard could use it just as well as a Bard/Wizard could.

[Ravens_cry]

This assumes that the king in question is in a high-magic campaign and is constantly alert for any magic-user who might dare attempt to alter his mental state.

Most kings are probably too fat, lazy and stupid to think "Hey, I should spend a couple of thousand gold per day to hire someone to Mind Blank me, on the off chance a wizard tries to cast some hokey-dokey spell at me."

:P
Even in a moderately magic campaign, kings would not remain kings if they did not take precautions. Just like a king has food tasters and body guards, a king would also have defences against magical incursion.
Instead of hiring someone, who you don't know that they might only make you THINK they cast Mind Blank on you, an old retainer you trust and whose well being depends on yours would be better. Even if they don't have Mind Blank, they can identify spells being cast in the vicinity and alert guards and/or take actions themselves, whether to attack or remove the magic. Guards with some magical aptitude or training (a dip in wizard, sorcerer, or adept with ranks in Spellcraft) would provide another line of defence.
Unless magic is so uncommon that PC magic users are likely the only ones in a kingdom or rarer , this is just common sense.

[Doktor Per]

I didn't mention things which didn't help with what you're trying to do. Bardic knowledge may be level dependent, but you're a wizard, and you're going to be raising your intellect over the course of your days (which a Bard has little reason to do) which will increase the usability of the ability slightly. You'll also want to get those 5 ranks in Knowledge history for the +2 synergy bonus. I think there's a variant which gives you another +2 bonus and I think you can get another bonus through binding a chakra or something. that's 7+INT Extremely obscure knowledge becomes plausibly accessible to you. Bottom line, you're almost guaranteed to have some dirt on any of your notable opponents or "allies." The price is a dip at first level (+3) a stray skill point whenever (+5) and a feat at 6th level. (+7)

So though it may not give you your int on every skill, a limited number of days, but that's sort of what your Wizard spells are for.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, which is why I wanted social skills on my wizard. A wizard with a good bluff or diplomacy check, plus that skill trick to make him cast spells unoticeably could get an audience with said king and dominate him without anybody realizing it. While under domination, have the king name you heir. After that, covertly dominate a low will-save member of the court(greedy nobles with nothing but NPC class levels or meat-shield/melee types both work.) and then have said member of the court(while dominated) murder the still dominated king(who thus won't put up a fight.) While the false assassin is dominated have him/her create all kinds of false eveidence by their own hands that would incontrovertably prove that they commited the crime. Use this false eveidence as an excuse to immedatly exicute them without trial when you take the throne...even better, if their still dominated by the time your in power have them make a public confession. Congrats, you just took over the kingdom without the court mage screwing with your plans. The only issue is you would need social skills to do this, but factotum dip(Or human paragon) solves this.

[Caliphbubba]

I see, so human Paragon can get me bluff, diplomacy AND sense motive?.

Human Paragon gets 10 class skills of your choice. I really think Human Paragon with Able Learner is probably the most elegant solution to your problem. It's really a pretty sweet class. You recoup the cost of Able learner at the second level, gain a +2 to your primary stat, and 10 freaking skills of your choice which for all intents and purposes become Class Skills for your characters livespan if you take Able Learner too.

So all your social skills plus 7 more! so you're not going to behind on your Wizardly skills.

I'd take another look at Unseen Seer too if I were you. A manipulator is well served by being able to spy on people and blackmail them. Getting Divinations off of other class lists has to be useful somewhere in there too. Human Paragon gets you into it as easy( or easier) as a Rogue dip as there is no sneak attack requirement.

[Maho-Tsukai]

There is no sneak attack requirement to unseen seer? In that case it may be worth looking at. Also, what is the earliest I can take Human Paragon? I would think that I would have to take my 1st level as a wizard, then human paragon, which means I would be one level without my social skills. Too bad I can't save skill points from first level like you can in NWN......Guess that means I'll have to neglect my wizard skills for one level to get my social skills up to snuff? Or dose human paragon give me enough extra skill points to not have to neglect all my wizard skills to get ranks in the social skills equal to what I would have if I had them at 1st level?

Also, is there any other way beyond factotum to get Int to social skills? If not is there a glibness-esc spell on the wiz/sorc list that can give me a massive social skill boost temporarily? I think somebody earlier mentioned some dragon-related spell that gives +10, which would be sufficient enough a boost for me. Dose anybody know the name of this spell, what skills it boosts and what sourcebook it is in?

[Doktor Per]

That's a great plan Maho-Tsukai, I just hope no one in that room has sense motive. When the dominated king (DC 15 sense motive check) names you his heir in front of everyone. You are not playing a political manipulator there, you're playing a cocky usurper or worse, a con artist. (Also, relying on that a King doesn't have a fail safe against being dominated)

You are making assumptions about situations and how the world will react. If you're trying to manipulation someone, assumptions may get your plans thwarted or worse, get you killed.

A political manipulator removes all opposition with a smile, while keeping his own hands clean, and then sweeps in and saves the day, or gets "responsibility thrust upon him." You don't want people dying to give you power, you want them thrust out of power "by their crimes" or other faults. Political manipulators abuse the power they are granted, their relationships to people and public opinion. They make it so that when they are king, everyone who hasn't had to deal with them will love 'em and everyone else is either locked away, gone, too scared to act or dead.

EDIT: You can start your guy as a Paragon, starting as a Wizard would be silly.

Edit: Voice of the Dragon, it's in Spell Compendium, it boosts Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate. 1 hour/p. level and you can dispell it to cast Suggestion as a SLA.

[Amnestic]

Also, what is the earliest I can take Human Paragon?


Paragon class levels can be taken any time a character gains a new level, even at 1st level (in which case they receive four times the normal number of skill points gained at each succeeding level).

SRD Entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm)

So yeah, you could take it at 2nd if you want Wizard to be your first level.

[Maho-Tsukai]

True, and that example plot was hastily contrived but also just an example of how you can get away with it without magic ruining your day

Also, who said I would just go in and have him name me heir in front of everybody? You don't just go and have him name you heir overnight, same with even getting an audience with said king. To actually use the "have the king name you heir" plot you have an actual reasonable excuse for having him name you heir in the first place, such as having saved the kingdom from a major threat. So, no, you would not just walk up to the king in the middle of a crowded gathering and go "hello, can you name me heir?" and proceed to dominate person. Doing so would be totally retarded and get you lock in a prison cell, not on the throne.

The point would be to actually build up to the point where he names your heir. Before he names you heir you actually have to create an excuse for him to do so, which would admittedly take some time. During that time you constantly keep him dominated and put up a front as an ally of the kingdom. If your an adventurer(which you would be as a PC) do constant adventures/quests that benefit the kingdom and make you a hero in the eyes of it's people. Even if your evil go ahead and play hero. Save the kingdom a few times. Defeat the necromancer and his undead legions that want to lay waste to the land. Slay a dragon or two. Improve the kingdom's economy with economancy shenanigans via spells like Wall of Iron and flesh to Salt. Improve the kingdom in ways no others have and then you have an excuse for the king to name you heir when you finally make him do it, and it won't be usurping in the eyes of the people.

If anybody figures you out along the way you find a way to deal with them either by destroying their reputation and turning the kingdom against them, framing them for a crime and having the courts seal their fate or something similar..... of if they have access to powerful magic and can easily destroy your plot, have them eliminated in any way possible.

[Caliphbubba]

There is no sneak attack requirement to unseen seer? In that case it may be worth looking at. Also, what is the earliest I can take Human Paragon? I would think that I would have to take my 1st level as a wizard, then human paragon, which means I would be one level without my social skills. Too bad I can't save skill points from first level like you can in NWN......Guess that means I'll have to neglect my wizard skills for one level to get my social skills up to snuff? Or dose human paragon give me enough extra skill points to not have to neglect all my wizard skills to get ranks in the social skills equal to what I would have if I had them at 1st level??

You can take Human Paragon at first level, if you want. I think I would suck it up for a level and take it first. Pick your 10 class skills, it's 4+int per level(+1 from being human). You have a 1d8 hd, are proficient with simple weapons + light armor, plus 1 martial weapon of choice. Take your 2nd level as Wizard then back to Human Paragon for 2 levels.

and yeah Unseen Seer only requires skills and to be able to cast 2 divinations.

[Doktor Per]

Well, that's not what you said.

The problem with your plan is that any good aligned level 1 cleric could probably ruin it. Just by accident and following his own nature. And when you start messing with a church...

And now you're dominating him over a long period of time. It makes the possibility of that scheme being discovered even greater.

Edit: What I mean by the first paragraph is that "the validity of this legal document is hardly going to be much without witnesses."

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, and it would not be any worse then taking Factotum at 1st level and wizard an 2nd anyway, So yeah. Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard X/Unseen Seer X looks pretty good for this build.

Also, you don't HAVE to keep him dominated for all that time. I just threw it in there because it can be pulled off in some situations. If your truly worried about the domination failing then just leave him un-dominated until you've built up enough of a reputation where him naming you heir is actually reasonable within the people's minds. The domination is not necessary, it just gives you nice perks if you can pull it off. It's safer not to bother with it, yes, but if you feel you can effectively pull off the perks are worth it.

The one thing we are both not considering in this argument is that political manipulation, and deciete is general, is very situational. There is never one plot that will work in every situation. Each kingdom/nation is different. Each court is different. Political landscapes are fluid and no one area will have the same political landscape and prominent personalities as another.

Just because a plan may not work in one instance dose not work in another. In many situations, prolonged domination will fail. In others, it will succeed. You just need to make sure that you layed the proper groundwork for prolonged domination to work and can effectively read the situation and figure out if prolonged domination would be effective in that paticular instance.

Building a strong reputation with the kingdom is sometimes enough to fool people. Other times, it is not. In the latter cases it's best to not bother with domination at all until the critical point(In this case, when he names you heir), though you can still pull it off if you want, in some cases. It would just involve a heck of a lot more work then it's worth, but it could still be pulled off by somebody cunning and/or charismatic enough.

Also, as for legal matters your not going to have him name you heir in the back room hidden in the shadows with nobody knowing. If you've built up a proper reputation with the kingdom then by that point you should be able to have him name you heir openly and not have it be a big surprise to everybody. The court and the people should already think your awesome and should openly welcome your rule by that time. Also, if you have global domination aspirations should have already been well into sewing the seeds of expansionist beliefs, colonialist ideas and nationalism in the minds of the people so when you start boosting the nation's military might and tell them your going to go conquer other nations/lands it's not going to be a hard pill to swallow but rather something the people have been crying for you to do for a while now.

Also, being named heir is by no means the only means to become king. As I said before, the key to any kind of political scheme is knowing the political landscape of the area in question and manipulating it to your advantage. Have a disgruntled population being ruled by corrupt, decadent nobles with a pathetic millitary that is a shadow of it's former glory? Then perhaps going with a people's revolution would be better. Got a kingdom with a military and court fed up with their ruler? Then get in their good graces and become the mastermind of a coup. Again, it's all about reading the individual situation and crafting the best method of attack for that specific situation as no two kingdoms will be exactly alike.

[Endarire]

Charm person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) makes the victim Friendly toward you for the spell's duration.

Hypnotism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hypnotism.htm) makes the victim 2 steps more positive toward you.

Thus, a level 1 Wizard (preferably with a high DC) can turn a victim from Hostile to Fanatic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy).

Dominate person (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm) makes the victim your mind slave, so long as you don't give it self-destructive orders.

By RAW, none of this requires any social skill. You just need to affect your victims with these spells. (Doing so may require dispel magic, beating spell resistance, and more.)

A Wizard can be plenty effective even if he never casts a single Enchantment. He can seem so powerful that his reptuation grants him influence. Perhaps he uses planar binding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planarbindinglesser.htm) and co. to gain influence; directly (Enchantments) or indirectly (That dude binds succubi (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus)!).

Perhaps this Wizard has access to lots of wealth. He could be a social failure but still smart enough to know who to bribe. Planar binding for Efreeti helps here, too. Wizards are known for creating wealth. Google "D&D 3.5 Wizard Wealth Making" and you'll find plenty of stuff. Oh, and you can make it for cheap (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0).

The OP implies a 'court Wizard' who talks to people and persuades them in more mundane ways. In this case, being a Wizard is between "neutral" and "a hindrance." Wizards don't get social skills as class, though there are many ways around this. Wizards can create items and cast spells to boost their skills, but these aren't exclusive to social Wizards. CHA is typically a Wizard's dump stat, and Wizards gain very little, if anything, by prioritizing CHA over other stats.

Your overall goals determine what you do and how you do it.

[Nightblade]

Have you looked at the Beguiler? You mentioned wanting a Tier 1 character, but Beguiler isn't a far cry from what you're trying to accomplish. For resources, there is this:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0

To gain versatility, dip into Mindbender, Visionary Seeker, or Shadow Adept to delay Advanced Learning to gain Shadow Conjuration. Int-based spontaneous spellcasting with 6+Int skills? It's a wet dream for some.

[ArcanistSupreme]

What about something involving Bard and Sublime Chord?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Those all work except for the fact I am specifically looking for a tier 1 class. However, it seems that Human Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Human Paragon 2/Wizard(and/or 10/10 CL progression PrCs) X works perfectly for what I want and only loses 1 CL, which is not that bad. The benefits outweigh the CL loss, here.

Also, with human paragon I don't need to invest in cha as much as I can put the +2 ability score boost to Cha to get me anywhere from 14-16 Cha, depending on my stat layout and thats all I'll ever need as I can use items and spells to boost both my cha and social skill ranks if I really need it. It's too bad PrC bard makes you lose a CL at first level or it would be worth a dip here just to obtain glibness easily.

[Doktor Per]

Also, you don't HAVE to keep him dominated for all that time. I just threw it in there because it can be pulled off in some situations. If your truly worried about the domination failing then just leave him un-dominated until you've built up enough of a reputation where him naming you heir is actually reasonable within the people's minds. The domination is not necessary, it just gives you nice perks if you can pull it off. It's safer not to bother with it, yes, but if you feel you can effectively pull off the perks are worth it.

Domination has it's use, and it's quite specific. It's for when you want to turn someone into an autonomous slave.



The one thing we are both not considering in this argument is that political manipulation, and deciete is general, is very situational. There is never one plot that will work in every situation. Each kingdom/nation is different. Each court is different. Political landscapes are fluid and no one area will have the same political landscape and prominent personalities as another.


This is why I told you to get Bardic Knowledge. It gives you access to this information. This is also why I told you to watch Burn Notice (because everything that can go wrong, will go wrong)



Just because a plan may not work in one instance dose not work in another. In many situations, prolonged domination will fail. In others, it will succeed. You just need to make sure that you layed the proper groundwork for prolonged domination to work and can effectively read the situation and figure out if prolonged domination would be effective in that paticular instance.


Prolonged domination of a prominent political figure who has to be around quite a lot of people and advisors and such is something that only works if the entire court is made of orcs with the gullible feat. Sense motive check of 15 is very easy to beat, especially when you're someone with advisors and other political guys. All they have to do is call a Priest or Paladin of Pelor (or other Good Deity) and the entire business is in danger.



Building a strong reputation with the kingdom is sometimes enough to fool people. Other times, it is not. In the latter cases it's best to not bother with domination at all until the critical point(In this case, when he names you heir), though you can still pull it off if you want, in some cases. It would just involve a heck of a lot more work then it's worth, but it could still be pulled off by somebody cunning and/or charismatic enough.


Becoming King is rarely "a heck of a lot more work then it's worth." The hierarchy that comes with Feudalism is immense and a lot of people have to answer to the King. The King also has to answer to those people. If there's any doubt about the legitimacy of an heir and people are on edge, the Kingdom may very well dissolve.



Also, as for legal matters your not going to have him name you heir in the back room hidden in the shadows with nobody knowing. If you've built up a proper reputation with the kingdom then by that point you should be able to have him name you heir openly and not have it be a big surprise to everybody. The court and the people should already think your awesome and should openly welcome your rule by that time. Also, if you have global domination aspirations should have already been well into sewing the seeds of expansionist beliefs, colonialist ideas and nationalism in the minds of the people so when you start boosting the nation's military might and tell them your going to go conquer other nations/lands it's not going to be a hard pill to swallow but rather something the people have been crying for you to do for a while now.


Someone will shout "the king's under some sort of enchantment!" And it won't take people long to piece the puzzle together when he's naming you his heir. So I hope you'll have teleport memorized. You get it at the same level as dominate person, so you should be covered. :)

EDIT: There's a possibility you don't really want what you say you want. People tend to want one thing and say they want another. Like with pasta sauce and coffee.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Your assuming that I'll fail at manipulating the people I need to, and that's a dangerous assumption to make since I owe pretty much all of my successes in life to manipulating others. It's why my friends all consider me lawful evil...so don't doubt my ability to be manipulative...if that's what your edit was doing....but I would rather not get into my own RL actions here as I don't like to discuss the darker points of my life with most people.

What I will say is that your right in the sense you have to be cautious, but you seem to be operating under Murphy's Law. Call me a foolish idealist if you wish, but I don't operate under Murphy's Law. I operate under the idea that the possibility exists for both the good and bad outcome to occur and which one manifests into reality is dependent on your own actions, the environment/situation and how you choose to interact with it....both in game and RL. Call it metagaming but crazy "name me heir" schemes CAN work with some DMs. With others, it won't, as they, like you, operate under Murphy's Law, like to run more realistic campaigns or just like making things difficult/challenging for their players. Thus, pulling such a thing off is as much about reading and in some cases, yes, manipulating, your DM as it is reading and manipulating in-game NPCs....which is why I even came up with such a hair-brained idea in the first place.

The people I play with generally prefer fantastic plots and generally take into consideration all of the character goals of the party. Thus, the games I normally play in tend to result in every party member achieving their goal. Many DMs do not operate in this manner, and in that case taking over a kingdom or the world in their games require different tactics. However, since I am used to a less realistic, "murphy's law" adhering mode of play where crazy, inpratical but fantastic and "cliche villainous" plots can work, my mind is trained to naturally think in that mode of play. Hence the first thing I thought up of off the top of my head was a rather hair-brained but cinematic and fantastic scheme because thats what's generally excepted and used in the games in which I play, both by players AND BBEGs. However, I know that under a different style of play a different plan of attack is required and in many games all your points stand and that flashy yet impractical plot would fail.

[sreservoir]

rainbow beguiler. tack on able learner or something to keep the skills up.

the real question is whether you'll be allowed to play it by RAW.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Rainbow beguiler requires non-evil. No way in heck is a non-evil is going to be a manipulative kingdom/world dominator.

[Toliudar]

For the best of political manipulation, avoid enchantments altogether - any situation where a single saving throw throws a wrench into your plan is to be avoided. If you're going to use dominate, use it to create pawns who will do what you want them to do without knowing who you are or why they're acting the way that they are - because speak with dead, divinations, etc are NOT your friend.

Wizards make great political manipulators because they have an extraordinary ability to fabricate evidence against their enemies, create threats to the kingdom that "only they can overcome," have spells like teleport to allow you to nearly be in two places at once (you couldn't have murdered the prince if you were also off fighting off the goblin raiders a hundred miles away).

As you've pointed out, Maho-Tsukai, diplomatic manipulation (except in the context of the one-minute-and-you're-my-buddy diplomancer) is a slow and careful process, built up over time.

[Doktor Per]

I'm not making assumptions. I'm making statements. It is unrealistic to expect majority of people to have a -6 on their sense motive checks, which your domination scheme is built around. I don't care if you're really manipulative in real life. I'm a professional boxer, but I won't bring that up here.

You seem to be confusing Murphy's Law with opposition.

I'm saying: People tend not to have really low wisdom and/or the flaw gullible, and your plan hinges on that. If your DM and your fellow players are fine with it, I'm fine with it. All I'm trying to do here is try to instill some of the structure that comes with the game and the assumptions that can be made. There is really no need for you to get so defensive and explain how we're at different sides of a river.

Now I'm asking, if there is no risk of not achieving your goal, why do you need a Tier 1 character?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Indeed, that's true, and dominating is not always the best method, but in some instances, it's useful. Mainly if you want to make something you cannot make them do through words alone or do not have the social skills to make them do. Though without social skills wizards make poor political manipulators. A standard, low-cha, no social skills wizard is better off just using economic manipulation instead, and then translating their economic power into political power. However, I just prefer political manipulation as it has much more style and is far more villainous and awesome then "screw the rules, I have money."

Also, I apologize for getting so defensive about it. I just thought you where commenting on my RL skills, which seeing my track record in RL is a bit insulting to me. So I am sorry if I got defensive over it and next time I will remember to separate forum comments from RL.

Also, as for why Tier 1? Simple...it plays into another reason I am considered evil by friends...ego. It comes out of personal arrogance. If there is a tier 1 in the party, I will not play a non-tier 1. However, in a party where no tier 1s exist, I am willing to play tier 2-tier 3s and usually tend to play tier 3s(Dread Necro is my favorite class in the entire game.) However, due to my own hubris I cannot make myself play anything that is not tier 1 when a tier 1 exists in the party. I know that sounds terrible, but hey, at least I'm admitting that the reason is pride instead of making some false, more justifiable reason.

[erikun]

Note: Forgery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/forgery.htm) is a skill that will probably come in handy for getting the written orders you want, is INT-based, and best of all: is only countered by a higher opposed Forgery check! There won't be many NPCs that could beat an INT-focused, max rank character without being significantly higher level.

[deuxhero]

This assumes that the king in question is in a high-magic campaign and is constantly alert for any magic-user who might dare attempt to alter his mental state.

Most kings are probably too fat, lazy and stupid to think "Hey, I should spend a couple of thousand gold per day to hire someone to Mind Blank me, on the off chance a wizard tries to cast some hokey-dokey spell at me."

:P

Be the mind blank person and cast dominate instead!

[Maho-Tsukai]

That's actually a pretty neat idea, and it would be a highly useful skill. I just have to find a way to squeeze as many skill points as I can out of this build, then. After all, I am already investing in bluff, diplomacy, sense motive, spellcraft, know(arcana), Concentration and slight of hand, which is a total of 7 skills. Normally that's going to be ALL the skills I can take( 4 points from int, 2 points from my class and 1 from human.) At early levels when human paragon gives me more skill points I am going to be putting at least 5 ranks into Know(nobility and royalty) for the synergy bonus to diplomacy as well...so this build already is spending skill points in a lot of places.

[Doktor Per]

But you need spot 8 for Unseen Seer.

[sreservoir]

Rainbow beguiler requires non-evil. No way in heck is a non-evil is going to be a manipulative kingdom/world dominator.

why does being manipulative and taking over the world require evil?

anyway, if you don't mind dragon material, 280, page 88 has the eldritch master. ten-level prc for casters, but it progresses only caster level. reqs are trivial by level 5, and four levels is all you'd need or want.

first two levels get detect magic at will and one extra use of a cantrip (as a supernatural ability, I think? the wording kind of sucks). this is not worth losing a level of spells.

the third level gets a metamagic feat and one casting per day of a spell one level higher than the highest spell you can cast. this does not really make up for having lost a spell level and a half, although the wording is vague enough that, if you use use versatile spell and sanctum spell, you might be able to cast a spell three spell levels above your normal maximum -- likely to get books thrown at you, of course.

at fourth level, you can choose one character class whose spell list you add to the spells you choose from when selecting new spells known, and you learn every spell on your list. also note it says character class, not spell list. pick archivist, and you get every divine spell. spontaneously.

and you can still cast 9ths using versatile spellcaster. sure, less of them than all the other casters, but you have the perfect spell for the job every time.

(of course, if you actually try pulling any of the more broken things, you'll probably end up getting it banned as broken dragon material.)

[Maho-Tsukai]

At this point I am not going unseen seer. I looked up the class myself after it was mentioned and while it's nice with the tight skill prereqs and the fact that without SA dice the benefits are not as great I decided that overall it was not worth it. If it did not have the search and spot prereqs then yes, I would take it. However, this build is already invested in tons of skills as-is and as a result I decided the PrC's prereqs are too painful for this build to justify taking it.

Also, evil is preferred for RP. I want to be a scheming would-be tyrant. No good or neutral dreams of being a tyrant.

[Kaeso]

Also, evil is preferred for RP. I want to be a scheming would-be tyrant. No good or neutral dreams of being a tyrant.

While I agree no good character would do this, it's debatable wether or not a neutral would. If a neutral character notes that the king is not very good at fulfilling his tasks, yet the people refuse to rise up against him (out of ignorance or because they're pleased with the status quo and believe any change would take too much trouble), then a neutral character could delegate himself to be the power behind the throne for the sake of the kingdoms subject. If he truly considers himself to be a better king than the king himself and doesn't get corrupted by his power (which isn't unlimited in a feudal system) then he could be neutral. Not every 'power behind the throne' is a fu manchu wearing prime minister.

That said, IMHO a focused specialist enchanter would be good enough. He has the spells to make people like him and to dominate them. Perhaps he doesn't have any real social skills, but in my humble opinion the 'power behind the throne' isn't supposed to be the charming orator that can inspire a rag-tag band of commoners and mercenaries to follow him into the very depts of Hell, preferably to dine there, but the subtle advisor that has a tight grasp on the king, even more so than his advisors, vassals or family. There are enough 'powers behind the throne', both fictional (Grima Wormtongue) and historical (Rasputin (Russian Empire). If anybody disagrees I invite them to discuss this in a private message, as to not violate the forum rules) that aren't exactly the most charming people imaginable.

If you absolutely, positively need an arcane caster that gets 9th level spells and has social skills, the beguiler or bard/sublime chord would be your best bet. They're only tier 3 (or 2 if you take respectively the shadowcaster and sublime chord prestige classes) but they fit your wishes. If really want a tier 1 caster, a cloistered cleric could work (they get diplomacy as a class skill and need cha for turn undead), but they're not arcane and need to serve a god (however, you could easily make him an agent of a god of Slaughter (I forgot the name of the core god of Slaughter) that wants to influence his king in such a way that the kingdom will collapse into a state of anarchy, where violence and pillage are a common occurance). If you really want a wizard then go back to the first paragraph.

[sreservoir]

there's nothing saying a rainbow servant who changes alignment loses its powers!

there's also this:



Adaptation: The couatl aspect of this prestige class
is inextricable from the rest of it, but you could develop
similar prestige classes with other good outsiders such
as lammasus, eladrins, or archons. It’s also easy to reverse
the class’s alignment and come up with a similar “striped
servant” class connected to the rakshasa, for example. And
the couatl’s jungle temples are rich with possibilities for
creating your own organization—anything from secretive
monks to weird spellcasters to friendly barbarian tribes
could be living in the temples or nearby.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Get a(n) (Eternal) wand of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a), it's a great spell for critical skill checks.

[Optimator]

Enchanter Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants) may be useful to you, particularly the Social Proficiency part.

[Kaeso]

Get a(n) (Eternal) wand of Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a), it's a great spell for critical skill checks.

I'm not trying to get in your grill, but it's a cleric spell and wizards don't get UMD (thank goodness they don't. Imagine how (even more) overpowered they'd be if they did).


Enchanter Variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#enchanterVariants) may be useful to you, particularly the Social Proficiency part.

This! This!
I didn't even think of it, but this basically ends the thread. Problem solved!

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I'm not trying to get in your grill, but it's a cleric spell and wizards don't get UMD (thank goodness they don't. Imagine how (even more) overpowered they'd be if they did).

I know, but there was talk of a Factotum dip for skills and Int to skills x/Day so I thought I would bring it up.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, also, that enchanter variant seems to be just what I am looking for. The only thing it lacks is slight of hand for that skill trick but there are other ways to pick that up. Other then that the variant basically gives me every skill I need as a class skill.

[Kaeso]

Yeah, also, that enchanter variant seems to be just what I am looking for. The only thing it lacks is slight of hand for that skill trick but there are other ways to pick that up. Other then that the variant basically gives me every skill I need as a class skill.

What would you need sleight of hand for? Especially since some of your spells and/or a glove of storing could do anything you'd want to use it for

[Maho-Tsukai]

Slight of hand is for the skill trick conceal casting, which allows me to make my spellcasting unnoticeable if the slight of hand check it lets me make while casting beats onlookers' spot check.

[erikun]

Disguise Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#disguiseSpell) might be an interesting feat to look at as well, although I can understand if it doesn't fit with your particular build.

I've considered playing a Wizard/Bard/Ultimate Magus with it (along with Still, Silent, and Invisible Spell) to spontaneously apply the necessary metamagics for Wizard spells on the fly. It's only two lost Wizard caster levels, along with most of the skills you are interested in, but you can only spontaneously metamagic so many times per day. (3 + 1/2 UM level)

[Kaeso]

Slight of hand is for the skill trick conceal casting, which allows me to make my spellcasting unnoticeable if the slight of hand check it lets me make while casting beats onlookers' spot check.

According to Races of Stone, you don't even need the skill trick for that. It's weird, it contradicts CAdv but w/e. There's also the metamagic feat 'invisible spell' from Dungeonscape, at a +0 spell level adjustment.

[dextercorvia]

Just a thought, but rather than spending all that money on Mind Blank castings every day, wouldn't a King just want a captive Living Mind Blank. He could just drop down to it's cell every day, and /bam/ Mind Blank for nothing. I guess he'd want to be cured afterward, but still....

[Akal Saris]

Not sure if this has been brought up, but there's an enchanter variant in the SRD that might work.


Social Proficiency (Ex)
Enchanters using this variant are as proficient at manipulating others through mundane means as they are at influencing their minds magically. Add the following skills to the character's list of wizard class skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive. The enchanter also gains a +2 competence bonus on checks involving one of these skills (player's choice) every five levels (5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). This bonus can only be applied once to each skill.

An enchanter using this variant does not gain bonus feats for advancing as a wizard.

If you don't want to stay in the wizard class, then you could be human/changeling and take Able Learner to keep the social skills for forever, and go Enchanter 3/Master Specialist 3/Recaster 5, or whatever else suits your fancy.

[Larpus]

I'm kinda late to the party, but as I've done that once and actually considered this route I think it'll be good to suggest it:

How about going Ultimate Magus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070306), who is a powerful half prepared half spontaneous arcane caster (from Complete Mage), and taking as the spontaneous class the Beguiler (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060711a), a Rogue-like caster who can cast in secret and excel at illusion and deceive spells (from PHBII)?

[ArcanistSupreme]

Those all work except for the fact I am specifically looking for a tier 1 class.

As far as I know, bard into Sublime Chord is tier 1. Especially builds like this one (from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77363) thread):


If you want to go all-out for raw magical power....

UA variant: Savage Bard - five levels, then start take Ur-Priest for two (for second level spells); and follow it with three levels of Mystic Theurge (casting: Bard-8, Ur-Priest-5); add on a single level of Sublime Chord (Casting: Bard-8, Ur-Priest-5, Sublime Chord-1), then take five more levels of Mystic Theurge (advancing Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest spells). Your last four levels go to some full arcane advancing PrC of your choice - Abjurant Champion will do well, as will the Virtuoso PrC. You can also just continue in Sublime Chord - it's got reasonable class features. One level in Mindbender can be handy - especially if you get that one nifty feat from Lords of Madness that gives you Mindsense in your Telepathy range. Avoid Archmage - you don't have spell slots to burn.

9th level Divine spells at 15th or 16th (depending on Wisdom); 9th level Arcane spells at 19th.

When you're done, you cast as:
Savage Bard-8
Ur-Priest-10
Sublime Chord-10

Pick your Sublime Chord spells right, and you can pretend you have domains when impersonating a Cleric. It'll throw people that know how the Ur-Priest works off the track when they see you casting spells that match the domains of the god you're faking following, that aren't available on the Cleric list.

Edit:
Oh, yeah - taking those last four levels in Mage of the Arcane Order can be sweet - gives you Spellpool II, which allows you to call any PHB Sor/Wiz spell of 6th level or lower. Also, under Magic-Psionics transparency, Limited Wish can duplicate Psychic Reformation, and under Magic-Psionics transparency, Psychic Reformation can be used to change spells known. The 300 xp cost of Limited Wish lets you change your last six levels worth of skill, spell, and feat selections - which will be your top three tiers of arcane spells. If you think you might go Epic, make sure to max out Knoweledge(Arcana), Knoweledge(Nature), Knoweledge(Religion), and Spellcraft - that'll give you four or six Epic spell slots at 21st when you take Epic Spellcasting.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Beguiler/Wizard into ultimate magus may actually be an option here, and a powerful one at that(doesn't Ultimate Magus eventually get 9ths on both sides if done right?)The only issue is what to take after Ultimate Magus since no other classes advance two arcane classes. In a game where I will never reach epic it may work, but otherwise after I take ultimate magus I will have trouble finding a class to take.

[Larpus]

Beguiler/Wizard into ultimate magus may actually be an option here, and a powerful one at that(doesn't Ultimate Magus eventually get 9ths on both sides if done right?)The only issue is what to take after Ultimate Magus since no other classes advance two arcane classes. In a game where I will never reach epic it may work, but otherwise after I take ultimate magus I will have trouble finding a class to take after.
Not sure if he can get 9th on both, but he sure can on at least one of his classes.

As for what to take after that, I'm going Inchantrix for even more Metamagic goodness (my spont class is Sorcerer tho); my build is focusing more on the Wizard-side casting using the Sorcerer as a very strong backup (using a more blasty spell selection) and battery for UM's abilities; still on the lowish levels, but so far very powerful and fun to play.

I can't remember which, but I think that I did see one other PrC that gave you more than one spellcasting class progress, though I think it was a Bard PrC.

Another option is to take some Cleric levels and go Mystic Theurge (DMG, but I'd ask your DM if you can use the PF version) and/or True Necromancer (Libris Mortis).

MT gives you full spellcasting progression for both classes while TN chips away 2 levels from both, but gets more stuff compared to the DMG MT.

[sreservoir]

incidentally, take a look at the sha'ir, dragon compendium. cha-based, and is possibly more tier 1 than the wizard, what with being able to get any sor/wiz spell in 1d6+level minutes, depending on whether you read timed-out spells to count against spells per day.

it gets bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive as class skills, and needs diplomacy for spells.

it also gets to cast a few (mediocre) divine domain spells, qualifying it for some fun things.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Beguiler/Wizard into ultimate magus may actually be an option here, and a powerful one at that(doesn't Ultimate Magus eventually get 9ths on both sides if done right?)The only issue is what to take after Ultimate Magus since no other classes advance two arcane classes. In a game where I will never reach epic it may work, but otherwise after I take ultimate magus I will have trouble finding a class to take.

If you want double nines, take a look at the build I posted right above your post. It gets Ur Priest 9s by 15 or 16, Sublime Chord 9s by 19, and it also has 3rd level Bard spells. With the Mage of the Arcane Order suggestion, you can spontaneously cast any Sorcerer/Wizard spell of 6th level or lower. It's got the spells you want, the skills you want, and it has plenty of power. The only downside is that you have to spend 2 skill points for literacy, which really shouldn't be that big of a deal. Oh, and Savage bard has to be Chaotic, but if you go Non-Chaotic you don't lose anything (alignment change in the backstory for the win).

[Maho-Tsukai]

I priest requires high wis. I don't want high wis on this build for RP reasons...and double 9s are not necessary. I just want a tier 1 caster who is not reliant on wisdom and has the MECHANICAL ability to taking over the world....something a wizard can't do without social skills/political manipulation(as they have NO MECHANICAL MEANS WHAT SO EVER to build an army, unlike the cleric who can make an undead legion easily)...hence why I asked for a way to make a political manipulator wizard as conquest via army without using social skills/political manipulation to gain control of a nation is totally 100% out of the question for any tier 1 class except for the cleric. So I figured if I can't build an army with my own abilities I'll just manipulate myself into a position where I can have an army at my command, and to do that I would need social skills/political manipulation on my tier 1 caster, and pretty much every tier 1 caster except the wizard and archivist are wisdom based, which I don't want for RP.

Since the archivist cannot get the best enchantments without being forced to rely on rare scrolls of obscure class spell lists and domain lists I decided the wizard was a better base then for a manipulative caster....though if there is a way for an archivist to get Dominate spells and other good enchantments without Magic Mart being present(As lets face it, without Magic Mart your not finding domain scrolls or divine bard scrolls.) by all means, tell me.

Also, to the poster who mentioned True Necro. While I would love to use that class, it dose not get 9ths, ever. Not even on one side. You end up with double 8ths, but absolutely no 9ths at all. However, if there is some way to gets 9ths on at least one side I may consider it as it gives the wizard everything he needs to be a good necromancer and if I can get a wizard to be able to make an undead legion that is in NO WAY inferior to a cleric's then I don't even need to bother with social skills as I now have a mechanical way to make my own army rather then having to rely on steal somebody else's.

[the clumsy bard]

Enchanter variant social proficiency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#socialProficiency)

Follow the link.

It requires specializing in enchantment, but if you are trying to be politically powerful its not a bad school to specialize in.

Just use the enchanter's handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19867266/Enchanter_Handbook) for the win.

[Larpus]

Also, to the poster who mentioned True Necro. While I would love to use that class, it dose not get 9ths, ever. Not even on one side. You end up with double 8ths, but absolutely no 9ths at all. However, if there is some way to gets 9ths on at least one side I may consider it as it gives the wizard everything he needs to be a good necromancer and if I can get a wizard to be able to make an undead legion that is in NO WAY inferior to a cleric's then I don't even need to bother with social skills as I now have a mechanical way to make my own army rather then having to rely on steal somebody else's.
Sadly yes, I don't know of any viable route to make a True Necro access 9th spells from either list, unless there is some obscure class or feat out there that somehow gives you free divine spellcasting levels or make your arcane spells (which may be considered 'class') divine.

It might still be a worthy trade since you'd be something like a lvl15 Wizard and lvl15 Cleric and have great undead-army abilities. Might be somewhat weaker or more limited than having 9th spells, but still looks like prime powerful overlord material to me.

EDIT: Other than the big no to high Wis, Ur-Priest as a stepping stone might be interesting as it would delay your True Necro by one level (and deny you the last class feature), but bump your arcane spellcasting by one level (one extra 8th spell) and actually have 9th divine spells.

However, it does raise an issue since you'd have spells like a lvl13 Ur-Priest, so you'd need to talk to your DM about what to do with the exceeding 3 spellcasting levels, if they can be used as either "actual" more Ur-Priest levels or converted into wizard levels (thus making you the same as a lvl19 Wizard), then you might be looking at a true beast.

EDIT2: You need the Death Domain to qualify for True Necro, so this either nulls the idea or it might be possible through the Domain Wizard (Unearthed Arcana), if the DM allows the existence of the Death Domain and for it to quality for True Necro.

[mootoall]

Wait wait wait- remind me again, why does a Wizard use social skills at all ever? That's ... that's what spells are for. Charm Person makes him friendly. Suggestion only requires opposed Charisma checks. I'm utterly baffled as to why you need those skills at all.

[Larpus]

Wait wait wait- remind me again, why does a Wizard use social skills at all ever? That's ... that's what spells are for. Charm Person makes him friendly. Suggestion only requires opposed Charisma checks. I'm utterly baffled as to why you need those skills at all.
My guess is that he's considering scenarios where magic is not an option, such as conferences where everyone is loaded with Arcane Sight or in an Anti-Magic Zone.

Or simply to not have to worry about having a limited amount of use of his social talents.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

*Snip*I priest requires high wis. *Long snip is long*

Well fear not for with the simple addition of one level of Tainted Scholar from Heroes of Horror, all your troubles are gone! At the cost of your immortal soul.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Tainted Scholar dose not work as it dose not advance Divine. Only Arcane. Tainted Sorcerer, from the SRD dose, though. The only issue is actually obtaining a taint score high enough to enter. My default method is usually becomming undead, though there are others. While I may not be a good OPer in many areas, the one in which I do have experence is taint abuse due to using it to play non-wis dependent clerics for much of my time as a D&D player. It's where I derive my screename from, as the Maho was the 3.0 version of the Tainted Sorc and proto-Tainted Scholar.

The reason I never bring up the taint in these discussions is because a very large group of DMs and players consider it blaitant and unforgiveavble cheese since Tainted Sorc/Maho/Tainted Scholar is a very easy road to totally ridicilous DCs and bonus spells. I know enough to play them with restraint, but many times the class(es) is auto-denied due to the infamous cheesy reputation it has. However, in a group which allows the taint and those classes it's always my de-facto method for getting a non-wis dependent cleric, and a lot of other things, for that matter.

[Doktor Per]

Wait wait wait- remind me again, why does a Wizard use social skills at all ever? That's ... that's what spells are for. Charm Person makes him friendly. Suggestion only requires opposed Charisma checks. I'm utterly baffled as to why you need those skills at all.

Because people tend to get pissed at you if you take away their most primal freedom. Freedom of thought.

Let's say you're just doing your job, when some guy walks in, hypnotizes you and makes you do something silly. Maybe just something trivial. You are not going to have any warm feelings towards that guy. Imagine if someone spiked your drink. Enchantment spells are the most evil spells as they strip this power away from sentient beings. And thus people should be pretty vary of Enchanters in general.

If someone spiked your drink, you'd be angry as well.

[ArcanistSupreme]

I priest requires high wis. I don't want high wis on this build for RP reasons...and double 9s are not necessary. I just want a tier 1 caster who is not reliant on wisdom and has the MECHANICAL ability to taking over the world....something a wizard can't do without social skills/political manipulation(as they have NO MECHANICAL MEANS WHAT SO EVER to build an army, unlike the cleric who can make an undead legion easily)...hence why I asked for a way to make a political manipulator wizard as conquest via army without using social skills/political manipulation to gain control of a nation is totally 100% out of the question for any tier 1 class except for the cleric. So I figured if I can't build an army with my own abilities I'll just manipulate myself into a position where I can have an army at my command, and to do that I would need social skills/political manipulation on my tier 1 caster, and pretty much every tier 1 caster except the wizard and archivist are wisdom based, which I don't want for RP.

Fair enough. What about just Bard 10/Sublime Chord 1/Mage of the Arcane Order 9? Charisma based casting, all of the social skills and spells you need, the power of a Wizard, and the ability to cast any 1st-9th level spell on the Sorcerer/Wizard list at will. As a bonus, you have access to Bard spells.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Tainted Scholar dose not work as it dose not advance Divine. Only Arcane.

It may not advance Divine casting but the Class Feature: "Tainted Spellcasting" says nothing about being only for arcane spells.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Because I dislike the musical flavor of the bard, thats why. However, if I could refluff the bard's bard song as political speeches and use Preform (Oratory) as my requsit preform skill I may consider it....but if I am forced to use a musical flavor then I have no intrest in any bard-based build.

Also, Tainted Scholar, I assume, would only apply to one spellcasting class, not every single one you have. Since it advances arcane, it is safe to say it would apply only to your arcane side. However, you can still get taint-based divine casting if you want, via tainted sorcerer, the generic, 10-level 3.5e version of the 3.0 Maho-Tsukai class that can advance arcane or divine. My de-facto build for a cha-cleric for games in which lost traditions(3rd party feat that can allow a casting stat swap for one caster class.) is not allowed is a Necropolitian Cleric 5/Tainted Sorc 1/Bone Knight X with Dynamic Priest as my first level feat. Dynamic Priest makes cha your casting stat for everything EXCEPT DCs, which usually sucks because you loose offensive casting but in this instance it dose 2 things. A) Makes it so pre Tainted Sorc you don't need wisdom. 2) Lets you have a really high Cha, which becomes important for obtaing a high taint score once you become Necropolitian.

Tainted Sorc dose force you to make a will save to level in anything other then tainted sorc, but as a cleric will is one of your best saves and tainted sorc(and undead-ness) makes your wisdom no longer effected by your taint so with a good will save and no wis penalties you should be reliably able to make the save. If your really worried then buff your will save like crazy with spells and items before you level and call it a day. In the early levels you make up for your lack of offensive casting by being a melee clericzilla. Once you hit Tainted Sorc you now have offensive casting again. Bone Knight is a great PrC here since it allows you to continue your melee-ness but also strengthens your necromancy. Your melee-power is boosted by your high-cha due to more rebuke attempts to fule DMM: Persist and other divine feats.(Heck, if you REALLY wanted you could take that stuff meant for Pallys that requires a high-cha since unlike a standard cleric you actually have the Cha for it.)

Your DCs also will be retardicilous if you want them to and you can have more bonus spells then any other cleric could ever dream to have.(To be technical theoreticaly your bonus spells and spell DCs are infinent, since your immune to negative taint effects and taint has no upward limit. However, if your playing this build with restraint, which realistically would be the case, your not going to have pun-pun level DCs and bonus spells.)This build actually makes a BETTER Necromancer then a strait cleric simply due to the ridicilous DCs and stronger rebuking(more Cha) but is liable to get auto-denied due to the use of taint-casting.

Sometimes I wonder if I should persue that passing thought of making a Tainted Sorc/Maho handbook seeing as it's my one area of OP expertice in the game...

[mootoall]

It's ... spells. The people who he's dominating/suggesting/charming are those who are going to be friendliest to him. Though I think this is a terrible idea, personally. I mean, just because you're king doesn't ensure a loyal army. Just read A Song of Ice and Fire for an example.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But it at the least provides me with an army. Having the chance to conquer something if you play your cards right and are cunning enough is better then having absolutly no ability what so ever to conquer anything, the latter of which is true of a wizard without social skills.

[erikun]

Beguiler/Wizard into ultimate magus may actually be an option here, and a powerful one at that(doesn't Ultimate Magus eventually get 9ths on both sides if done right?)
Not that I'm aware of, no. However, Wizard 4/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus with the Practiced Spellcaster feat will only loose two Wizard spellcasting levels.


Tainted Scholar dose not work as it dose not advance Divine. Only Arcane.
The point of Tainted Scholar is not to progress your spellcasting class. The point is that bonus spell slots and spellcasting DCs for all your spellcasting becomes dependent on taint, which you can increase easier than ability scores. A Wizard/Tainted Scholar 1/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge doesn't need Wisdom for anything.

...At least, that's what I recall. Tainted Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/taint.htm#taintedSorcerer) definitely uses "spellcasting" rather than specifically "arcane spellcasting", and so would apply to all spellcasting the character has. I'm assuming that Tainted Scholar is the same, although I don't have Heroes of Horror to be sure.

[Larpus]

But it at the least provides me with an army. Having the chance to conquer something if you play your cards right and are cunning enough is better then having absolutly no ability what so ever to conquer anything, the latter of which is true of a wizard without social skills.
I agree, even a straight Wizard with just some cc social skills and a decent Cha score can get quite some mileage ingame, gaining important positions and even land as his Diplomacy + high Int + heroic/villainous deeds are enough to convince most governants that the man is worthy to keep around and on good terms.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Indeed, Tainted Sorc can do what I want and I already know that. I have used the class a lot in the past, after all. Tainted Scholar I am not 100% sure about, however, so I will have to check heroes of horror.

[EarFall]

I priest requires high wis. I don't want high wis on this build for RP reasons...and double 9s are not necessary. I just want a tier 1 caster who is not reliant on wisdom and has the MECHANICAL ability to taking over the world....something a wizard can't do without social skills/political manipulation(as they have NO MECHANICAL MEANS WHAT SO EVER to build an army, unlike the cleric who can make an undead legion easily)...hence why I asked for a way to make a political manipulator wizard as conquest via army without using social skills/political manipulation to gain control of a nation is totally 100% out of the question for any tier 1 class except for the cleric. So I figured if I can't build an army with my own abilities I'll just manipulate myself into a position where I can have an army at my command, and to do that I would need social skills/political manipulation on my tier 1 caster, and pretty much every tier 1 caster except the wizard and archivist are wisdom based, which I don't want for RP.

Since the archivist cannot get the best enchantments without being forced to rely on rare scrolls of obscure class spell lists and domain lists I decided the wizard was a better base then for a manipulative caster....though if there is a way for an archivist to get Dominate spells and other good enchantments without Magic Mart being present(As lets face it, without Magic Mart your not finding domain scrolls or divine bard scrolls.) by all means, tell me.

Also, to the poster who mentioned True Necro. While I would love to use that class, it dose not get 9ths, ever. Not even on one side. You end up with double 8ths, but absolutely no 9ths at all. However, if there is some way to gets 9ths on at least one side I may consider it as it gives the wizard everything he needs to be a good necromancer and if I can get a wizard to be able to make an undead legion that is in NO WAY inferior to a cleric's then I don't even need to bother with social skills as I now have a mechanical way to make my own army rather then having to rely on steal somebody else's.

You can get 9th level cleric spells on a True Necro, I've done so... you just need to use Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard to snag up Control Undead (or command undead, or whatever the required 2nd level arcane spell is) Then you get in at 6th level, without the 3/3 split that causes you to lose 9th level spells.

End with 14 True Necro, 4 cleric, 2 wizard for 9th and 8th level spells, if my math isn't off... 14 true necro gives you 13 and 13, 2 wizard gets you 15 wizard, 4 cleric gets you 17?

I think you get 9th and 8th.

[Larpus]

You can get 9th level cleric spells on a True Necro, I've done so... you just need to use Precocious Apprentice at 1st level wizard to snag up Control Undead (or command undead, or whatever the required 2nd level arcane spell is) Then you get in at 6th level, without the 3/3 split that causes you to lose 9th level spells.

End with 14 True Necro, 4 cleric, 2 wizard for 9th and 8th level spells, if my math isn't off... 14 true necro gives you 13 and 13, 2 wizard gets you 15 wizard, 4 cleric gets you 17?

I think you get 9th and 8th.
That's interesting...is it doable the other way around? As in, some feat to access Summon Undead II early as divine and grap 9th for the Wizard?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, I would prefer 9ths on the wizard side so I could take Academic priest and not worry about needing wisdom. Sure, I would lack offensive cleric casting, but with offensive wizard casting I would have more then enough offensive magic and could use the cleric side for utility spells and other stuff not requiring a save...

Of course, I suppose with 1 level of Tainted Sorc(Or scholar, if it works) I could have a non-wis based TN who has good DCs on both sides.

Cleric 4/Wizard 1/Tainted Sorc 1/TN 14 would obtain everything the standard build dose and be totally SAD(with TAINT as the "stat" your using to cast off of.) to boot. Also, to prevent yourself to be screwed over since your a TN(infamously bad PrC) you may be able to houserule away the will save needed to not level up in tainted sorc each level if you play your cards right.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Because I dislike the musical flavor of the bard, thats why. However, if I could refluff the bard's bard song as political speeches and use Preform (Oratory) as my requsit preform skill I may consider it....but if I am forced to use a musical flavor then I have no intrest in any bard-based build.

I am 98.6438% sure that that is perfectly legal by RAW. I know in Pathfinder they switched it from "Bardic Music" to "Bardic Performance" and says nothing about it needing to be musical in any way. The fluff in the SRD says that chanting is cool, and as you're a spell caster, that could also work. It also says "poetics" can be used, which I would let speeches fall under. But I guess it's ultimately up to your DM.

[Larpus]

I am 98.6438% sure that that is perfectly legal by RAW. I know in Pathfinder they switched it from "Bardic Music" to "Bardic Performance" and says nothing about it needing to be musical in any way. The fluff in the SRD says that chanting is cool, and as you're a spell caster, that could also work. It also says "poetics" can be used, which I would let speeches fall under. But I guess it's ultimately up to your DM.
Though it says "music", as far as I know it's really "performance" just as it is now in Pathfinder, so if you wanted to you could make the Interpretative Dance Bard or the Spokesman Speechgiver Bard.

But I think that there are some alternatives from UA or something that gives the Bard more spells in trade for his music abilities (not sure if it's worthy tho).

EDIT: Was William Wallace a Bard?

[EarFall]

That's interesting...is it doable the other way around? As in, some feat to access Summon Undead II early as divine and grap 9th for the Wizard?

Other way around? Yes, if you can find a deity that has summon undead II as domain spell. If not, and you have a nice DM, you can try and make one that does that...

Arcane Disciple would be the answer there. You'd still need a 12 wisdom to pull it off, but I assume you'd have an 18 wisdom after items if you were going to have 8th level cleric spells. But your int would be far higher.

So to answer your question, by either searching for the right deity or by homebrewing a deity that has that spell (or altering the domain lists, however) you could theoretically reverse them and get a quite powerful true necromancer.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, earler I discovered another option not dependent on wisdom: The ever infamous alternate source spell. Last time I checked, TN says that you only need to be able to cast Summon Undead II as a divine spell, not use the cleric list to cast it. If I am not mistaken Summon Undead II is also on the sorc/wiz list. If it is not, correct me. But if it is then all you would need to do to qualify is take Alternate Source spell and you can prepare your wiz/sorc Summon Undead II as divine instead of arcane, meaning you can cast it as a divine spell and thus meet the TN prerequisite of being able to cast summon undead II as a divine spell.