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hivedragon
2011-06-29, 03:15 PM
What is thev best use for the extra power granted to halfelves (from a different class) and humans (from the same class).

Vknight
2011-06-29, 03:20 PM
For a half Elf grab some power they can actually use. Something keyed off of Charisma, or Constitution. Also think about grabbing a power that does not attack the same defense as all your other attacks

For Human if you are getting a 3rd At-Will get something that either works differently or provides unique coverage.

Examples:
Human Ranger. Twin Strike and Fading Strike those are both interchangable powers and cna prove useful but if forced into melee something that can provide bonus AC like 'Shield of Blades' can prove useful.

Its other use is giving a wizard that already attacks Fortitude and Reflex an attack that also targets Will

Kurald Galain
2011-06-29, 03:25 PM
What is thev best use for the extra power granted to halfelves (from a different class) and humans (from the same class).
For half-elves, probably Twin Strike or Beguiling Strands.

For humans, Heroic Effort, hands down. A third at-will from your own class will pretty much never see play at level 3 and up.

Treblain
2011-06-29, 03:29 PM
The feat Adept Dilettante makes the half-elf dilettante power keyed to one of your better stats. Versatile Master makes it an at-will at paragon.

It really hinges on finding a power that complements your character or adding a new element to them. If you need a ranged attack, find one. If you need a melee attack, find one. If you have a character with no good basic attacks, take Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike. You can take an area-of-effect power and the Defending Dabbler feat to let you mark multiple targets with it, and BAM!, you're a defender. If you find your party needing saving throws, there's some leader at-wills that grant them. And Twin Strike is always welcome.

Hzurr
2011-06-29, 03:31 PM
It depends on what you want to accomplish. For a half-elf, if you want to say "yes, I'm a fighter but my elvish mother was a ranger" than it makes sense to use it for a ranger power. Similarly, if part of your background was that you worked as a wizard for a while, you could use it to take an arcane power.

Alternately, you can use the power to fill in a gap that you feel you have. As was mentioned earlier, this could be to insure your human wizard has an attack for Fort, Ref & Will; or it could be something like taking a ranged sorcerer or warlock power so that your paladin has at least 1 ranged attack to fall back on (even though you focus primarily on melee).

Noneoyabizzness
2011-06-29, 03:31 PM
Gotta say loving knack for success instead of dil power.

Argok
2011-06-29, 04:55 PM
If you want to use wands, for the half-elf and you aren't arcane. Take the extra power from any arcane class, then you get the power to use wands.

MeeposFire
2011-06-29, 05:09 PM
If you want to use wands, for the half-elf and you aren't arcane. Take the extra power from any arcane class, then you get the power to use wands.

Being able to use a power from a class does not make you automatically proficient with any particular implements. So if you are a 1/2 elf fighter with thunderwave as your dilettante you are not proficient with wands. You still need to multiclass or otherwise pick up proficiency with a particular implement, though with the new rules any proficiency will likely be usable with any implement power.

Katana_Geldar
2011-06-29, 05:52 PM
That's why it's good to stick to the same domain as well as the same stat. I had a half-elf hybrid wizard/bard and I think she took a swordmage power.

Argok
2011-06-29, 08:08 PM
Being able to use even 1 arcane power allows you to use spells in any wands. With lack of proficiency. Thanks for reminding me of that.

Drglenn
2011-06-29, 08:25 PM
Being able to use even 1 arcane power allows you to use spells in any wands. With lack of proficiency. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Oh wow, you learn something new every day (I even checked my PHB to make sure this was true)

Numinous
2011-06-29, 08:42 PM
For humans, Heroic Effort, hands down. A third at-will from your own class will pretty much never see play at level 3 and up.

With one general exception: if you're playing an essentials class without at-will attack powers, cherry pick the best one from your non-essentials counterpart. Hunters with Twin Strike FTW.

MeeposFire
2011-06-29, 11:48 PM
With one general exception: if you're playing an essentials class without at-will attack powers, cherry pick the best one from your non-essentials counterpart. Hunters with Twin Strike FTW.

hunters with twin strike are kind of meh. If you want to striker play a standard ranger. A hunter spamming twin strike is not controlling and is a worse striker than a standard ranger. Further a standard ranger could spend a feat if they wanted to add one of the hunter at will options so if you want to twin strike it is better to go that way.

Heroic effort would be much better since it will help ensure one of your disruptive shots that might miss will hit.

Leolo
2011-06-30, 02:53 AM
Tough i don't know if heroic effort is really better in any scenario.

There are already so much options that grant a to-Hit bonus. And while it is true that you will only use your @ will powers once or twice at later levels choosing which is a big deal. For example a wizard could cover all defenses and choose to attack the weakes.

It would increase his chance to hit as well, but gave him more flexibility and be useable more than once per encounter.

MeeposFire
2011-06-30, 11:51 AM
With heroic effort barring extreme penalties or really extreme opponents (+8 levels or something) you can ensure you can hit with a two or better with all your powers which is very nice. In this case twin strike is not very helpful. It gives you two attacks making for great damage but that is not what you need. Hunters need more control options not more damage options.

On other classes it depends. Wizards can make a fair case since controllers do benefit from having more options (more so than most characters) that actually do control. A few other classes might find a use for the power. Hexblades that have high con scores love to pick up hellish rebuke and they are the best rebukers in the game. Scouts may want throw and stab as an option. I am sure there are a few others but for the most part heroic effort is a much better thing to have (including boosting saving throws).

LikeAD6
2011-06-30, 12:38 PM
For half-elves with high Charisma, Valorous Strike is a great choice. It can be used as MBA, so a half-elf with low Strength won't have to choose between being weak in melee or using a feat to take Melee Training. Plus it does radiant damage, which is rarely resisted by monsters.

MeeposFire
2011-06-30, 12:46 PM
For half-elves with high Charisma, Valorous Strike is a great choice. It can be used as MBA, so a half-elf with low Strength won't have to choose between being weak in melee or using a feat to take Melee Training. Plus it does radiant damage, which is rarely resisted by monsters.

Eldritch strike too depending on stats and whether you want slides or radiant damage.

Sol
2011-06-30, 02:29 PM
I love putting Direct the Strike on leaders via Dilettante. Attack-granting without having to be in melee range, and being able to make that granted attack either a RBA or a MBA is pretty awesome.

For hunters, Dilettante-ing a seeker at-will RBA (either grasping spirits or biting swarm) is one of the few ways to transform them into a fully functional controller. For humans, hunters with twin strike can pick up impending doom style to add a control rider to twin strike. (Pure rangers can stack some pretty crazy control on twin-strike, it should be noted. Impending Doom + Mark of Storm + Hobbling Strike + World Serpent's Grasp makes Twin Strike slide 2, slow, prone, -2 to hit EONT)

Some classes, like Avengers, have very little use for a third at-will, but leaders and controllers are all about diversity of options. Use it to pick up something that does something different than your other powers, even if its use is a little bit of a niche. Like for a cleric/ardent/shaman, use it to pick up your at-will save granting. You won't use it every combat, but when you need it, you will be very glad you have it.

Kurald Galain
2011-07-01, 12:37 AM
With one general exception: if you're playing an essentials class without at-will attack powers, cherry pick the best one from your non-essentials counterpart. Hunters with Twin Strike FTW.

Good point.

Dimers
2011-07-01, 01:17 AM
As a general rule, if you're a half-elf and some other class's at-will works really well with your own class features, well, take it.

A half-elf who wants more mobility should consider a monk power for Dilettante, particularly since the movement technique can be combined freely with other classes' at-wills. Likewise, a monk half-elf should consider at-wills that synergize well with their movement techniques. The sorcerer's storm walk and ranger's nimble strike might be worth a look for the same reason -- one standard action lets you shift before or after making a ranged attack. Or take the barbarian's pressing strike to shift 2 through enemies before attacking, and push 1 on a hit ... it's a lot of control compared to what Str-based melee classes usually get.

Any high-Int half-elf could do well with the warlord commander's strike.

One battlemind power in Psionic Power, conductive defense, can help a high-Con character act like a defender without ever marking anything.

For a defender or cull-the-herd striker who wants to hold critters better, try the runepriest's word of binding. You don't get the runic bonuses, but immobilization in a first-level power is pretty handy. Warden's thorn strike can help other melee defenders too, pulling enemies away from your buddies and back into your zone.

Charisma melee characters can significantly buff their allies with energizing strike (ardent). A hit with that power grants ChaMod + half your level in temporary hit points.

Invoker sun strike, like word of binding, has a pretty desirable control effect (slide 1). It also deals higher damage and can be used as a RBA.

If your DM likes hordes of minions, invoker hand of radiance can target up to four critters scattered far away from each other.

Conundrum
2011-07-01, 01:37 AM
A half-elf who wants more mobility should consider a monk power for Dilettante, particularly since the movement technique can be combined freely with other classes' at-wills.

Hm, I thought that the movement part of a Full Discipline power locked you into the standard-action part of the Full Discipline too? So that you can't mix-and-match at-wills with movement techniques?

Dimers
2011-07-01, 01:42 AM
Hm, I thought that the movement part of a Full Discipline power locked you into the standard-action part of the Full Discipline too? So that you can't mix-and-match at-wills with movement techniques?

PHB2 sez: "You can use only one full discipline per round, unless you spend an action point ... you can use one of the techniques and not the other during a particular round." Not errata'ed so far as I can see.

Conundrum
2011-07-01, 01:54 AM
Ok, that's a fair point. I guess he can use half a full discipline and then a normal at-will, but he just can't use half of one full discipline and half of another.

Dilettante really interacts weirdly with quite a few class features, doesn't it?

Crasical
2011-07-01, 02:24 AM
What monk movement powers are really worth taking, though? Five Storms 'Shift two squares', Steel wind's 'Ditch mark, move your speed +2', or Crane's Wings 'Jump with a +5 power bonus, and you have a running start'?

Sol
2011-07-01, 03:52 AM
What monk movement powers are really worth taking, though? Five Storms 'Shift two squares', Steel wind's 'Ditch mark, move your speed +2', or Crane's Wings 'Jump with a +5 power bonus, and you have a running start'?

Shifting 2 squares as a move action is a very commonly taken epic feat.

Granted, Dilettante isn't at-will until 11, but snatching five storms gets you there a full tier early.

Not the most useful of attacks for most people, since not very many dex classes are implement users (monks and assassins are it, i think), but the move action is great.

Kurald Galain
2011-07-01, 04:09 AM
Shifting 2 squares as a move action is a very commonly taken epic feat.
Or you could just wear Boots of the Fencing Master :smallamused:

Epinephrine
2011-07-05, 10:00 AM
As a general rule, if you're a half-elf and some other class's at-will works really well with your own class features, well, take it.

That sums it up well. My example is that the seeker at-will that slows and denies shifting (Wis as attack stat) goes nicely with a shaman's spirit companion's opportunity attacks (and shamans use wisdom as their attack stat).

Dalek-K
2011-07-06, 06:27 AM
Or you could just wear Boots of the Fencing Master :smallamused:

+1

One of my favorite items. And if you are Arcane there is a White Lotus feat that allows you even more shiftyness... Few months back I made the ultimate shifty kobold bard... yes yes his stats didn't help much but his shiftyness was to awesome to pass up.

Only for specific classes would I want to take a 3rd at will with human. Cleric and Wizard are the main two that I can think of right now though...

With half elf... Eldricht Blast or it's melee brethren is always a nice choice.

EDIT: Typo

Dimers
2011-07-06, 10:10 PM
Only for specific classes would I want to take a 3rd at will with human. Cleric and Wizard are the main two that I can think of right now though...

Ooh, thanks for the reminder. For humans, the Psionic Augmentation classes often benefit from the extra at-will, since they basically have one less power than normal classes. Between PHB3 and PP, all three have at least one first-level power I would find valuable for thirty levels of play.

Dalek-K
2011-07-06, 11:09 PM
When 4e first came out the human wizard combo that I loved was....

Magic Missile (range 20 with an attack roll)
Cloud of Daggers (attack roll and auto damage with a good wisdom mod)
Thunderweave (push and RUN)

tcrudisi
2011-07-07, 05:04 AM
Ooh, thanks for the reminder. For humans, the Psionic Augmentation classes often benefit from the extra at-will, since they basically have one less power than normal classes. Between PHB3 and PP, all three have at least one first-level power I would find valuable for thirty levels of play.

I agree -- but for full disclosure, I want to point out that the human at-will is not able to be augmented. Still, it's handy.

Daftendirekt
2011-07-07, 11:08 AM
I agree -- but for full disclosure, I want to point out that the human at-will is not able to be augmented. Still, it's handy.

Uh, why would it not be? If you're a psionic class, and you take an extra at-will from your own class, it's augmentable. The mechanics don't differentiate between the extra at-will and the standard ones.

Epinephrine
2011-07-07, 11:26 AM
Uh, why would it not be? If you're a psionic class, and you take an extra at-will from your own class, it's augmentable. The mechanics don't differentiate between the extra at-will and the standard ones.

Yes, they do; page 216 of the PH3.


When a racial trait grants you an at-will attack power of your choice and you choose an augmentable at-will attack power, the power loses both the augmentable keyword and its augmentations.