Ways to use War Mind

[wuwuwu]

So the War Mind class (XPH, also on the SRD) has appealed to me for a while, but I haven't been able to come to terms with it mechanically. The only ways I know to get to it kind of gimp it (mostly due to not advancing manifesting, which sucks).
So I was wondering if you guys knew any ways to get into it, and let's see if we can find one that doesn't totally suck.
Disclaimer: The pseudo-example pseudo-builds I'll post will be hilariously poorly optimized. I'm not much of an optimizer and I'm coming up with examples that "feel right" to me (Not a fan of single level dips, personally). This is by no means a Handbook. This does not mean you should hesitate to post your optimized X 1/Y 1/Z 1/truenamer 2/war mind 10 builds; If they help you get into war mind, post it!

Starting with, what I feel, is the best:
Human Paragon + [Anything else]
Human Paragon gets you Adaptive Learning at the first level of the class which allows you to pick up Knowledge(Psionics) as a permanent class skill. You could drop it there but the d8 HD, good Will saves, bonus feat, medium BAB, 4+In skills, and ability score boost are all pretty good anyways. If the next two levels are fighter, that's a lot of feats!
It's only worth keying Adaptive Learning to Knowledge(Psionics) if you dip once, because you get to choose any 10 skills as class skills for Human Paragon, getting you up to 6 in it before you switch over (and then it only costs 4 more to get to the prerequisite 8). If you're going all 3 levels you can use it to pick up Tumble, Spot, or Listen to cover for some fairly important skills war mind doesn't other get.

Psion
Low BAB, low HD. Good power points, different power list. Not a good choice for the same reason psychic warrior (listed next), but if normally unavailable powers are chosen and you multi-class to a full BAB class (maybe get the fighter bonus feats), may not be so bad.

Psychic Warrior
This gets you Knowledge(Psionics), and the power point reserve, but it also gives you manifesting which won't stack with what you get as war mind, and it grants you the same list. So if you go PsyWar 10/war mind 10, you have a small power point pool (117+bonus), 4th level psychic warrior powers and 5th level war mind powers(same list, remember) you can augment up to a whopping 10 power points. It's similar to going wizard 10/sorcerer 10.
Obviously you can substitute PsyWar levels for better classes (for instance, PsyWar 3/fighter 2/war mind 10 and not stack the ML so much, and Practiced Manifester can let you augment a little higher, but overall I'm not a fan of this method due to manifesting overlap.

Soulknife
Gets you the Knowledge(Psionics) you'll need, but you're sacrificed most of your mind blade progression. Hurting mind blade progression is never fun, considering it's the soulknifes ONE class feature, essentially. A +2 weapon with +2 worth of enhancements at level 20 isn't great. It's not even good.

Wilder
Wild surge can make up for some of the lost ML, it has a different list than war mind, and it has a way better power point pool to contribute. Probably the second best choice in my opinion.

Bard
Don't really see any reason to go from bard to war mind, especially since war mind doesn't have any party buff spells to fit a support role.

Cleric (with Knowledge Domain)
The domain gives you all knowledges as class skills, but you run into the same problem as psychic warrior, but you get even smaller of a power point pool. Of course, going cleric 10/psychic warrior 10 does let you cast Divine Power, giving you full BAB, so it might be worth it. Using Dweomer of Transference you can convert some of your spells to power points, which is also handy. Not sure if you can use it on yourself, though.

Wizard
Same issues as cleric and psychic warrior, but it needs multi-classing or a higher level to access the class due to low BAB, like the psion. Unlike the psions, however, it doesn't give power points, making it a worse choice (although some of the utility spells are pretty nice).

So yea, anybody got any other ways to get into the class? The best possible "build" I can think of is Human Paragon 1/Fighter 4/Warmind 10/Human Paragon 2/whatever (assuming your DM makes the ruling that Human Paragon can also advance manifesting levels), but that requires you to be human which kind of hurts my character concept of "Dwarf warmind" a bit...

Thanks for participating in advance!

[Psyren]

All you really need is a psionic race, the fluff requirement, and the knowledge skills. Yeah it's a weak choice for a Psion, but it's astounding for a Fighter or Monk.

Note that the Pathfinder War Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/war-mind) lets you continue Psychic Warrior progression instead of just having its own - this gives your Psywar a full BAB, 10/10 manifesting PrC that's peanuts to qualify for.

[wuwuwu]

Yea, the Pathfinder war mind is almost hilariously better than 3.5e's, and way easier to qualify for. You can even qualify as a straight Fighter 7, buying Knowledge(Psionics) as cross-class...

I wonder if I could convince my DM to use Pathfinder material...

But the knowledge requirement is the hardest to get. Only classes that don't mesh well with the war mind itself get it as a class skill, so in order to get a character that doesn't overlap itself, you have to pull shenanigans to get new class skills.

[Psyren]

If you want Know (Psionics), just grab the Education feat. As a bonus, it also gives you Know (History).

[wuwuwu]

What's the source of that? I assumed it was Pathfinder, but couldn't find it on the SRD there.

[subject42]

Given the "non initiator classes count as 1/2 for purposes of IL" clause, how would this work if you paired it with Swordsage?

[Psyren]

What's the source of that? I assumed it was Pathfinder, but couldn't find it on the SRD there.

Nah, it's D&D - Eberron Campaign Setting.

[erikun]

The biggest problem with War Mind isn't entry, but with progression. It doesn't extend existing manifestation, and it doesn't learn any new powers/gain new power points past 10th level. War Mind/Slayer would be ridiculously easy to qualify for, but there wouldn't be much point to it beyond the Slayer's abilities.

I suppose I could turn out useful for a multiclass or gish character, except that while you end up with more PP, War Mind 10 has about half the powers of a Psychic Warrior 10. Plus, you could progress the generic fighter/Psychic Warrior past a 10th level manifester, or qualify for most gish classes as just a Psychic Warrior. (See: Psychic Warrior 20 vs PsyWar 10/Slayer 10)

[Psyren]

War Mind works extremely well with ToB if your DM accepts the logic that Sweeping Strike applies to Strikes.

[Cog]

The biggest problem with War Mind isn't entry, but with progression. It doesn't extend existing manifestation, and it doesn't learn any new powers/gain new power points past 10th level.
The table doesn't go past tenth, but the text is a little different - it's simply "at every even level". Arguably, the usual Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion maneuvers would apply.

[Thurbane]

You can find some creative uses of War Mind here: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386#post9426386)

[Psyren]

The table doesn't go past tenth, but the text is a little different - it's simply "at every even level". Arguably, the usual Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion maneuvers would apply.

You can absolutely go past 10 as a War Mind, but not until Epic.

[erikun]

The table doesn't go past tenth, but the text is a little different - it's simply "at every even level". Arguably, the usual Uncanny Trickster/Legacy Champion maneuvers would apply.

You can absolutely go past 10 as a War Mind, but not until Epic.
As Psyren pointed out, you can go past War Mind 10, but not until epic levels. War Mind/Slayer will continue to increase manifester level, but additional PP and new powers are explicitly not gained at levels past what the table has listed. See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicClassProgressions.htm), and I'm not seeing anything in the War Mind description to bypass that. You still get additional bonus PP from high ability scores, and can get new powers from feats, but even a War Mind 10/Slayer 10 is limited to a base 70 PP and 6 powers known.

[Elric VIII]

TBH, War Mind is pretty cool, but it's not a great class. It's one of those things that you use as a DM, because you really like it, but you can do much better as a player. That said, if you're only going to level 15, it's not all that bad.

Personally, I like the idea of going Something 3/PsiWar 2/Slayer 10/PsiWar+5. The Slayer has some pretty cool abilities, you end up with 1 bonus feat (2 from PsiWar - 1 for Track prereq), and you're just about as well off as Something 10/War Mind 10.

[wuwuwu]

You can find some creative uses of War Mind here: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge XII (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9426386#post9426386)
Dang, how do you navigate these threads to find the builds? I've always thought they should be linked in the OP... I'll search through the threads a little later on.


Nah, it's D&D - Eberron Campaign Setting.
Cool, I'll have to see if anybody has that book in our group.


Given the "non initiator classes count as 1/2 for purposes of IL" clause, how would this work if you paired it with Swordsage?
Actually, ToB classes would probably work pretty well. Warblade 5/war mind 10 (with the Educated feat) sounds like it would be pretty awesome. Add Overchannel and Practiced Manifester to augment powers higher than normal... Me likey!

On the slayer: I like those, too, but they seem fairly restrictive, especially since I think I've seen... 4 illithids in my group? and they were all in the same room...

[Psyren]

War Mind is primarily a way for an existing character (e.g. a Fighter) to add psionics to his build without being totally gimp or rerolling. Even the fluff supports this, i.e. the Talariic texts.

And for a Soulknife - yeah you give up blade progression, but a Soulknife 5/War Mind 10 is far more powerful than a Soulknife 15.



On the slayer: I like those, too, but they seem fairly restrictive, especially since I think I've seen... 4 illithids in my group? and they were all in the same room...

SRD Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) doesn't require you to kill an Illithid (or anything, really.) If that was all that was holding you back, show your DM that one.

[Cog]

I don't see an Epic War Mind in either the given link or in the XPH, so I'm not sure where the certainty about Epic War Mind is coming from. I do see a description addressing epic manifesters on XPH page 32; the limit there is quite explicitly on powers known past 20th level in the class.

I'm not encouraging Legacy shenanigans for everyone. It's an option, though; if that's the sort of thing that flies at your table, then feel free to use it, and if it's not, then you of course should not.

[Psyren]

I don't see an Epic War Mind in either the given link or in the XPH, so I'm not sure where the certainty about Epic War Mind is coming from.

"A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

[Cog]

The Legacy Champion argument has been had a hundred times before. Anybody who's curious can do a search.

[Varil]

Wouldn't the Ardent work pretty well with a Warmind? You could even go Ardent 5/Warmind 10/Ardent 5 and end up with high-end Ardent powers.

[Kantolin]

I actually have a weapon-based monk who is going with war mind over psionic fist, as the latter doesn't help him as much as I'd figure. Full BAB is actually more useful than the flurrry-improvements sans greater flurry (which you do lose out on), but that's fine overall - and sweeping blows is fairly useful, as are the various chains. He's not using his unarmed strike, so it not improving isn't relevant.

Tashalatora is almost certainly better, but that's a pretty random splatbook that none of my group owns.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Dusk Blade (PH2)
Gets Int-based spellcasting in medium armor (heavy with a feat), Arcane Channeling, and Quick Cast 1/day. I'd probably go Dusk Blade 5/ War Mind 10/ whatever 5, Int 14 is the highest you would need that to be or 12 minimum.

(Full BAB Class) 4/ Sanctified Mind 1 (LoM)
The build should include all ten War Mind and all six Sanctified Mind levels. With Practiced Manifester it gets a manifester level of 19 for augmenting and bonus powerpoints from a high ability score, plus full BAB and all the class features of two very decent yet often overlooked prestige classes. Use the Otyugh Hole to get Iron Will to qualify for Sanctified Mind.

You could easily meet all the skill prerequisites using anything that gets full BAB and 4+ skill points/level, such as Crusader, Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Ranger, Warblade (needs to multiclass or use an Outsider race for proficiency prerequisites), Thug Fighter, OA Samurai, etc.

To qualify via Fighter, Paladin, Knight, Hexblade, or any other full BAB class with two base skill points/level you would need one bonus skill point per level due to either Human or Int 12. Nearly every skill point you spend from levels 1-4 would have to be cross-class ranks, you'd need to put all five points into Kn: Psionics at Sanctified Mind 1 to qualify for War Mind, and you'd need to put all three points into Psicraft at War Mind 1 to qualify for Practiced Manifester. Everything after that should go toward maxing out Concentration, and anything left over should go into Autohypnosis. It's a bit easier if one or more of your prerequisites is a class skill at 1-4, or if you take something with 4+ skill points/level at 1st level then multiclass into a lower skill point class.

[Hazzardevil]

"A ten-level prestige class can progress beyond 10th level, but only if the character level is already 20th or higher." (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm)

But what does it give except for slightly better chains of command?
Also Psyren, have you finished your psioncis handbook?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Epic War Mind
Damage Reduction X/- would increase by one point per three levels beyond 9th.
Chain of Personal Superiority would increase by +2 per six levels beyond 7th.
Chain of Defensive Posture would increase by +2 per six levels beyond 8th.
The daily uses of those should probably also increase, or there should be an epic feat which increases the uses of one by +2/day. I'd give epic bonus feats at every odd-numbered level, since otherwise it's extremely lackluster.
11. Epic Feat
12. Enduring body (DR 4/—)
13. Epic Feat, Chain of personal superiority +6
14. Chain of defensive posture +6
15. Epic Feat, Enduring body (DR 5/—)
16.
17. Epic Feat
18. Enduring body (DR 6/—)
19. Epic Feat, Chain of personal superiority +8
20. Chain of defensive posture +8
21. Epic Feat, Enduring body (DR 7/—)
22.
23. Epic Feat
24. Enduring body (DR 8/—)
25. Epic Feat, Chain of personal superiority +10
26. Chain of defensive posture +10
Etc.

[Cog]

Note that none of those numbers are explicitly derived from a formula, so how they'd continue is merely an extrapolation. Manifester level and powers known are derived from a formula.

[Psyren]

Note that none of those numbers are explicitly derived from a formula, so how they'd continue is merely an extrapolation. Manifester level and powers known are derived from a formula.

You're correct that a manifesting class' manifester level will increase in epic, but its powers known will not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicClassProgressions.htm) The way to increase its powers known is via Expanded Knowledge and Epic Expanded Knowledge.

It's base PP will also not change, but its bonus PP will rise as its ML and key ability score do.

[Cog]

You're correct that a manifesting class' manifester level will increase in epic, but its powers known will not. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/psionicClassProgressions.htm)
That link has the very same 20th level restriction I already mentioned. An effective War Mind level of 11 is less than an effective level of 20, and a Fighter 5/War Mind 5/Legacy Champion 10 is in no way an epic character.

[wuwuwu]

Dusk Blade (PH2)

Oh, Dusk Blade! I've only ever seen 2 in play, but they seem to have a lot of good low-level spells, and their class features are okay, too. This would work pretty cool, I think.


(Full BAB Class) 4/ Sanctified Mind 1 (LoM)

I like this one as well, due to the easy pre-reqs of Sanctified Mind and the cool class features. You also don't lose any manifesting or casting at all, nor suffer any over lap. Thanks for pointing this one out to me!
If you could combine Sanctified Mind, War Mind, and Slayer (and probably Paladin as the base class), you'd be one beastly (epic level) Aberration slaying machine!

[Psyren]

That link has the very same 20th level restriction I already mentioned. An effective War Mind level of 11 is less than an effective level of 20, and a Fighter 5/War Mind 5/Legacy Champion 10 is in no way an epic character.

I'm not really contradicting you, just responding to your response to Biffonacious' Epic War Mind progression.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Oh, Dusk Blade! I've only ever seen 2 in play, but they seem to have a lot of good low-level spells, and their class features are okay, too. This would work pretty cool, I think.


I like this one as well, due to the easy pre-reqs of Sanctified Mind and the cool class features. You also don't lose any manifesting or casting at all, nor suffer any over lap. Thanks for pointing this one out to me!
If you could combine Sanctified Mind, War Mind, and Slayer (and probably Paladin as the base class), you'd be one beastly (epic level) Aberration slaying machine!

Note that Sanctified Mind progresses divine spellcasting or manifesting, not both.

[wuwuwu]

Note that Sanctified Mind progresses divine spellcasting or manifesting, not both.

Yea, I noticed that. I just felt that smite evil(even if it's only 1/day), bonus saves, and turn undead would help fight aberrations and their vile minions. And the like, one Divine Spell probably could help a little.

[Psyren]

Paladin 2/Wilder X/Sanctified Mind Y can be a deadly gish. Sanctified Mind's Partition Mind ability can help you act even if hit with Psychic Enervation, you have lots of Cha to boost your saves, and of course you have the martial abilities of your paladin levels. You give up 9th-level powers though (not that you REALLY need them in psionics anyway.)

[Andorax]

It's not statistically optimal, but it might be worth it to play a

Warforged Warblade Warmind

...just to say you did.

[MeeposFire]

It's not statistically optimal, but it might be worth it to play a

Warforged Warblade Warmind

...just to say you did.

You need more warshaper.

[Thiyr]

Don't know how much any of y'all will care, but I came across an interesting redo of the War Mind that I'm gonna be playing, which both makes entry easier and just raises the niftiness level up a bit. Granted, it makes it a psionic/ToB hybrid, but seeing as that's been tossed around anyway, have a link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177574).

[Psyren]

It's not statistically optimal, but it might be worth it to play a

Warforged Warblade Warmind

...just to say you did.

Wis Penalty aside, nothing wrong with it. Scrape together a 14 and smash face.

[Divide by Zero]

It's not statistically optimal, but it might be worth it to play a

Warforged Warblade Warmind

...just to say you did.

I remember seeing a build with about twelve more War<stuff> things in it once. I want to put it up against the Dwarf Dwarf Fighter/Dwarf Cleric/Dwarf Paragon/Dwarven Defender/Stoneblessed/etc. just to see who is more concentrated.