Bringing a God down to Super Human.

[AnonymousD&Der]

We've had a -bunch- of different threads recently. Tome of Battle replacing regular melee classes, orgonizing fluff and making classes based on that fluff, trying to figure out why the origonal melee classes can't be good, changing how melee fights, and probably more that I've missed due to my schitzophrenic life style. I wanna present another thread. Mainly food for thought (like my thread discussing one of my DMS) while I prepare to be a DM for my local group.

I feel like Melee -does- get nice things. Well, not the best things. But within a non-Spell Caster group, there are all sorts of feats and skills that can apply to make interesting encounters interesting. And there is the Tome of Battle if you really wanna kick things up a notch.

But I don't think all that is fixing the Ultimate Problem. And the Ultimate Problem is actually that Wizards are essentially Demons when optimized. Sorcerors are Lesser Demons, Clerics are Gods, Druids are Animal Gods, and so on and so forth.

What can be done to fix this? I thought about it for a bit, and think that if you take away enough goodies, then Spells would just be the Magic way to kill people and solve situations, which others characters would have in regular attacks and skills. That maybe if you take away and leave enough, nit picking here and there, you could find a closer degree of balance.

I think the real reason I came to this conclusion was the Order of the Stick. 1/3rd of the group is made of spell casters, 1/2 of the group is about the middle tier, and 1/6th of the group is the joke tier. And yet, due to the way the characters act, and what they seem to have picked so far, they all are capable of contributing what feels like an even level. Even when Vaarsuvius gained TRIPPLE INFINTESSIMAL COSMIC POWER, he was only overpowered to the audience at that time. Everyone in the group felt useful throughout the comic. Maybe it's just because it's a well done story, but Rich's party seems to be well balanced, without the issue of "OMG ROY'S A FIGHTER HE SUCKS", or "DURKON AND V ARE IMBAR".

But yeah, what if Blasty/Killy Spells were just strong enough to serve as the magic substitute for cutting something, and utility spells were just strong enough to replicate skill sets? What if Magic just made you as good as anyone else, to recover from a lack of non-magic stuff? What if Wizards and co weren't Gods, but mearly Magic beings, and that everyone was eventually Super Human? I'd probably leave in Miracle and Wish for the sake of a DM tool (like Track), but otherwise, how much could you remove from the spell casters and they remain fair, but strong?

Stupid Thoughts are Stupid, try not to derail back into the Tome of Battle. We've got enough threads about how Fighters are too weak. We need more threads on how Wizards are too good.

[erikun]

So basically, turn Wizards/Sorcerers into Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warlocks, and other T3-T4 spellcasters? :smalltongue:

[AnonymousD&Der]

So basically, turn Wizards/Sorcerers into Warmages, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Warlocks, and other T3-T4 spellcasters? :smalltongue:

Some people like playing the origonal classes. Just compromising on how much or how they wield their infintesimal cosmic power would probably help fix a lot of problems. Campaigns might be easier to make like the stereotypical archetype of climbing a mountain to get into the Dragon's Cave, or dredging the Castle Dungeon to get to the Evil Guy (who may or may not have the Princess) is a lot easier when the Wizard isn't capable of doing it himself. And then the power issues aren't as noticeable when you're basically doing the same withing as him with less bells and whistles... At least, that's the impression I get.

But you make me want to search through my book collection now, and try to find these alternates. I don't remember the origin book of those classes listed on the Tier List.

[DiBastet]

Just what the first awser says. I find this problem of yours exactly my problem. My players can contribute, and they prefer melee options, however I don't like the idea of Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit...

I've made some extensive things:

1 - I banned spell preparation. Every spellcasting class uses the sorcerer table (bards progress a level no, two levels yes).

2 - I made a list of core and SC spells, reworked the broken ones, and made a codex from where players can pick spells. Less problem with broken ones.

3 - I made class defense bonuses and armor as DR. from low levels, a little dr 1 or 2 or 3 makes a great difference.

4 - I made a system that you gain a bonus on combat manuevers (like trip and grapple) if you have more BAB than your enemy.

5 - Every spellcasting prestige class loses at least one level of spellcasting.

6 - Gave druid the shapechange variant, gave full animal companion to ranger.

7 - Made a system of points that players may use to buy the "necessary" magical benefits, and banned these items from the game (there's no atk, ac or atteibute enhancement, deflection, natural armor or resistance items anymore).

8 - Banned the tome of battle classes but enabled martial study to be taken as many times as you wish (you can have 2 + number of iterative attacks of manuevers ready at the same time). Your manifester level is equal your BAB, so full warriors can learn nice things much earlier.

9 - Iterative attacks are all at -5 only. Concentration skill is CL + key spellcasting stat.

10 - More important than most others: I made a system of skill abilities that you get to use when you gain certain ranks in a skills. The perks are 0, 1, 4, 7, 10, 13 and 16 (add 3 ranks if you play by core skills instead of pathfinder skills). Iit's more or less some kind of "magical" mundane ability that a spellcaster could do two levels lower. So, with 4 (7 in basic D&D) ranks in acrobatics, you can make a check to negate any fall damage (similar to a feather fall). Not every use is awesome, but since they come free, and everyone gets them, it adds more versatility to every class, specialy the non-magical ones.


It works very well. Many changes nerf spellcasters, many others improve melee combat.

[erikun]

Some people like playing the origonal classes. Just compromising on how much or how they wield their infintesimal cosmic power would probably help fix a lot of problems.
Beguiler, Duskblade, and Dragon Shaman are from PHB2
Dread Necromancer is from Heroes of Horror
Hexblade is from Complete Warrior
Spirit Shaman is from Complete Divine
Warlock and Warmage are from Complete Arcane

Also, so you're planning on cutting down on the Wizard's spell list until it is equal to a T3 class? :smalltongue: I mean, it would probably work but realize that there isn't much difference between a Beguiler and a Sorcerer who can only learn Enchantment and a handful of other spells (beyond Rainbow Servant shenanigans).


One idea I had for psionics is that spells which would normally auto-succeed (e.g. Psionic Knock) instead temporarily grant you skill points equal to your manifester level. In the specific case of Psionic Knock, it would also grant you Trapfinding. Sure, the Psion could replicate a rogue, but they'll be expending PP to do so, and they put themselves at risk of triggering the trap as well.

[Merk]

Quellian-dyrae's Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=203055) is a good "fix" for casters, possibly ignoring the Wizardry ability. Wizards & friends are too good because they can change their spell lists daily and suit themselves to "solve" any problem. The Mage, on the other hand, casts from a limited set of spells, and thus is closer in power to the Beguiler / Dread Necromancer. As a bonus, the powers offered through the class allow you to function as many different types of casters, covering a lot of archetypes and cutting down on base class bloat (Warlock? Pick the power that lets you pewpew for 1d6/2 levels. Gish? Take the 75% BAB, d8 HD power. etc.)

[NecroRick]

My three step plan for rescuing campaigns from Tier abuse:

Step 0 : if the player is trying to persuade you that the spell does something that seems to not quite match the wording of the spell unless you squint at it in a particular way... it probably is wrong.

Step 1 : clamp down hard on spell selection, if you "let one slip through" and the player starts abusing it, take it back. If the player whines, don't give them anything as compensation

Step 2 : clamp down properly on spell wording interpretations (most of the abuses on these forums are from blatantly ignoring stated limitations and/or taking the loosest, most favourable interpretation possible, and then stretching it even further past the bounds of credibility)

Step 3 : additionally make them _earn_ their ultimate power the hard way, from level 1 up (regardless of what level the other players in the party start at).

The view from a level 3 character going "yeah, well ultimately I'm planning on getting into Hierophant and going wild and crazy with the metamagic feats" and the view from a level 20 character going "yeah, took that during character creation" are _entirely_ different.

And if you listen to the hive-mind apparently once a Tier 1 character hits level 5 all other characters are instantaneously rendered useless at everything else forever... so starting them at level 1 is only fair.

Here's a table presenting a different approach

Starting Level by Tier
Tier 1....Level 1
Tier 2....25% of nominal starting level
Tier 3....50% of nominal starting level
Tier 4....100% of nominal starting level
Tier 5.....125% of nominal starting level
Tier 6.....you lose, thank you for playing, insert new character to continue

So if the starting value in your campaign would normally be say 8:
Clerics/Wizards start at 1
Sorcerers start at 2
Dread Necros(?) start at 4
Barbarians start at 8
Fighters start at 10

For multiclass, use the lowest starting level. So no one can 'dip' wizz or CadZilla. If you want to be Fighter 9/Wizz 1, just take Fighter 10 instead, then for your next (your first _earned_) level dip into wizz.

For a level 12 campaign:
Clerics/Wizards start at 1
Sorcerers start at 3
Dread Necros(?) start at 6
Barbarians start at 12
Fighters start at 15

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Alternately, if the casters are wrecking the game for everyone else, try playing some E6. The casters (according to the hive-mind) will still be better than everyone else by a large margin, but perhaps the margin will be small enough as to not make everyone else _feel_ completely obsolete (even if the hive-mind is correct and they actually are obsolete, they might not realise it).

I tend to think that abuses of the level 3 and under spells are more prone to being spotted as being broken because there is a sort of power continuum, and if you break out of the scale it's more obvious at the low/middle end than at the very top end. E.g. if someone is using a cantrip to do 123d6 damage, that's going to stand out. Or even using a second level spell to do 11d6 damage will raise warning flags, because that has passed the typical top of the range for _3rd_ level spells. Whereas if you get some fast-talking scoundrel with high ranks in rules-lawyering trying to twist some high level spell (8 or 9) into ultimate power there's less likely to be a higher level spell that does the same thing; only more so, to act as a 'reality check'.

---------

Lastly, if everyone is having fun as is, no need to fix it if it ain't broken.

I have often found that the players who gravitate towards the melee types tend to measure the comparative power of their character in the simplistic "how much damage do I do" scale. So as long as they do more damage than the casters they are generally happy as pigs in mud. Leave them in their blissful ignorance.

My feeling is that Tier 1 only tends to be a problem if the player is engaging in deliberate dickery. E.g. deliberately going out of their way to make another character obsolete, or alternately trying to get into a peeing match with the DM by figuring out obscure spell combos (and then the incessant arguing as they browbeat you with their rules-lawyering until you cave in about whether or not it actually works that way) to beat every challenge the DM comes up with.

[erikun]

So if the starting value in your campaign would normally be say 8:
Clerics/Wizards start at 1
Sorcerers start at 2
Dread Necros(?) start at 4
Barbarians start at 8
Fighters start at 10

For a level 12 campaign:
Clerics/Wizards start at 1
Sorcerers start at 3
Dread Necros(?) start at 6
Barbarians start at 12
Fighters start at 15
It sounds like the best idea would be for everyone to play a Tier 1/Tier 2 character, thus forcing you to drop encounters to a reasonable level. Alternatively, allow the one guy to play a 15th level Fighter, and watch him get torn apart by the first encounter as the rest of the party wanders off to something more appropriate.

Alternatively, play a Commoner with a couple dozen 36HD dinosaurs under his control, plus ni-infinite attacks with Whirlwind Chicken Cleave abuse. Really, what made you think that T1 were the only abusive classes?

[DiBastet]

Different levels and xp tables are a terrible idea that fixes nothing, however it gives me this warm nice feeling like writing about sex or ad&d...

[NecroRick]

Different levels and xp tables are a terrible idea that fixes nothing, however it gives me this warm nice feeling like writing about sex or ad&d...

Yes... that was... exactly... the response I 'hoped' to get. Thank you... I think...

[Endarire]

This is my solution:

-Power up all classes. The tier 3s need the most help in a group with well-optimized T2s and T1s. This means rewriting the classes to make them more potent and fun.

-Remember the tier system. Broadcast it to your group. Tier 1s will dominate at a certain level if played well. At some point, acknowledge it and act upon it.