Transformers 3 [spoilers] [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Tyrant

2011-06-29, 10:49 PM

I didn't see a thread about this in the last few days and with the movie out now I thought I would start one.

I saw it at a midnight show. I thought it was better than the second one. The humor has been dialed back a lot and less of it is the crappy kind from part 2 (though it does rear it's ugly head in a few places, mainly through the first hour or so). The movie felt really long, though not really in a bad way (and it could've just been me being kind of tired). There is quite a bit of robot fighting in this one. Most of the human characters are back, though many have lesser roles with Sam dominating the human side of things. This one felt like they actually put some thought into the plot and things feel a lot heavier once the villain plot kicks into high gear.

Spoilered thoughts below:
I like what they did with Sam's character. He's a guy who has helped save the world twice and can't find a job. He's frustrated and feels like the government turned their backs on him, which they more or less have. He gets pulled back in and has to prove that he should be in on things even though he isn't in the military. The military folks even try to speak in favor of this, which was a nice touch to show that at least they know he played an important part in the events of the last two movies.

Patrick Dempsey's character is revealed to be a Decepticon collaborator. He gets what he deserves by Sam's hand at the finale.

Sentinel Prime is a traitor. He made a deal with Megatron before the end of the Cybertronian War. He has created a teleportation technology. Their plan is to teleport Cybertron to Earth and then enslave the human race to rebuild their world.

Megatron is a truck now for some reason. And his head still has a pretty good size hole in it from the end of part 2. We get to see him destroy the statue of Lincoln at the Lincoln Monument and use the chair as a throne.

Optimus Prime is a blood thirsty, one machine wrecking crew who takes no prisoners in this movie. He starts killing and doesn't stop. Once he arrives in Chicago where the Decepticons have killed all kinds of people (and we get to see this happen, a lot) he states "We will kill them all", speaking of the Decepticons. In the final battle, Sentinel Prime is winning until Megatron decides that he doesn't want to play second fiddle in their partnership and he ambushes SP and is able to disable him. He tells Optimus that they need a truce. Optimus responds by killing Megatron, then blowing away SP.

Bumblebee kills Soundwave. Sam kills Starscream. Optimus kills Shockwave (who didn't do jack through most of the movie). Bumblebee, with the assist from Sam, kills Lazerbeak. Sentinel Prime kills Ironhide. Cybertron is totally destroyed. Patrick Dempsey is killed by Sam. Some random new Autobot that I didn't recognize is executed by Soundwave. Wheelie and some new other little Transformer sabotage one of those giant ships you see in the city scenes and cause it to crash, presumably killing them in the process. Lots and lots of humans die in Chicago. I'm trying to say the body count is pretty high in this one and I don't know where a sequel would go aside from maybe Unicron.

Nimoy was nice as SP's voice. No Galvatron lines, unfortunately. There was a Spock line though, "The needs of the many outweight the needs of the few".

There is nothing at the end of the credits. There is one scene in the credits and it is fairly early.

userpay

2011-06-29, 11:25 PM

Aye I liked it, though for me the beginning did seem to drag slightly even if it made sense.
On Megatron being a truck, did we ever see him transform in the previous movie? I don't recall seeing that quite honestly.

Shockwave pilots that worm thing whereas as I recall Starscream only had some lines outside of trying to kill Sam which Shockwave tried to do as well. Was kinda funny watching Starscream flail with Sam attached to his eye though so I'll give him points for that.

While from what we saw Cybertron probably was destroyed I'm thinking it might only be the section that had already been teleported that was destroyed. I was fully expecting that piece to stay around and become a new base for the autobots but I guess thats nature of things that defy physics when they're destabilized.

Nomrom

2011-06-29, 11:46 PM

Jayngfet

2011-06-30, 12:34 AM

Muz

2011-06-30, 10:11 AM

Did they fix Bumblebee's voice YET, or is he still doing the annoying radio thing?

Also, how's the Michael Bay-shakey-cam? I heard filming in 3D reigned him in a bit on this such that you actually get some geography and a sense of what's going on. Can anyone confirm that this is true?

userpay

2011-06-30, 10:26 AM

My only real issues with the film is Sam's Boss and the human antagonist. Boss Man apparently got this mysterious letter of reccomendation, knows all about the transformers now, and vanishes right as he gets any real development.

Meanwhile the villan grabbed the idiot ball and never let go. He knows they've killed every other human they've worked with, and they've managed to renge on their deal and start killing people without discrimination, and yet he doesn't even flinch outside the reaction that shows he didn't expect this.

Other than that, solid movie that managed to tie everything together nicely.

What about that big party where Sam gets that watch. Seems like everyone there is in on it and as far as we know they're not dead.

Did they fix Bumblebee's voice YET, or is he still doing the annoying radio thing?

Also, how's the Michael Bay-shakey-cam? I heard filming in 3D reigned him in a bit on this such that you actually get some geography and a sense of what's going on. Can anyone confirm that this is true?

The voice is still the radio. Does make for an amusing use at the end. And I suppose the shakey cam has gotten better.

Muz

2011-06-30, 10:48 AM

The voice is still the radio. Does make for an amusing use at the end. And I suppose the shakey cam has gotten better.

I know it shouldn't bother me in an action movie with giant alien robots, but...it really does. Good lord, Prime has died and gotten better by now. If I had to talk in radio snippets it would frustrate me to no end. Grab Ratchet and DEMAND he get off his shiny metal ass and fix the voicebox again like he did at the end of the FIRST movie!

...Okay, okay, deep breath, just a movie. I think it just irks me as a storyteller. There's no conceivable reason for it to still be a problem, and the only reason it IS still a problem is so they can have a cute little gimmick that's really gotten tired.

Jayngfet

2011-06-30, 06:11 PM

What about that big party where Sam gets that watch. Seems like everyone there is in on it and as far as we know they're not dead.

Yet, but Megatron made this big thing about killing every other human involved. That was kind of a big thing they were doing early on.

Tyrant

2011-06-30, 07:02 PM

userpay

2011-06-30, 07:36 PM

In part 2 Megatron was a tank/jet hybrid. We see him in tank mode a few times and when they have the big battle in the woods he turns into a jet and fly away.

Also, I changed the thread title just in case anyone didn't know spoilers were present in here.

Hmm well then he's shown the ability to turn into more than one vehicle (after posting I faintly remembered something about the jet) and he probably assumed the truck to blend in better. I did like the cloak touch though.

The Extinguisher

2011-06-30, 08:29 PM

I enjoyed the movie. However, my one complaint, and this is my complaint for the entire series, is they didn't do anything with Starscream. He has so few dialog lines, and almost all of them are kissing Megatron's shiny metal ass. In the first movie, he had only one line, and it was all "praise Megatron" or whatever, but the novel heavily, heavily implied that it was sarcasm and loathing, and it went nowhere. And as much as I looked for that tone of voice in Dark of the Moon, it was hard to hear with his nose shoved so far up Megatron.

Reverent-One

2011-06-30, 08:48 PM

As we have a spoiler warning on the thread now, ditching the spoiler tags.

Sam kills Starscream.

What.

*Looks it up online*

Wow, poor Starscream.

So, how are Soundwave and Shockwave portrayed? They're two of my favorites. I also hear something about Wheeljack being in this one?

Tyrant

2011-06-30, 09:53 PM

As we have a spoiler warning on the thread now, ditching the spoiler tags.

What.

*Looks it up online*

Wow, poor Starscream.

So, how are Soundwave and Shockwave portrayed? They're two of my favorites. I also hear something about Wheeljack being in this one?
Most, or all, of Soundwave's lines are towards the end of the movie. He has several Autobots as prisoners, then Dempsey's character shows up and says it's personal now so there will be no prisoners. Soundwave didn't seem to take much convincing to decide to start executing them. He kills one (don't know his name) before the soldiers intervene and allow the Autobots to start fighting back. Then Bumblebee is able to kill him. They must not have been doing much altering to his voice because he sounded like Dr.Claw the whole time, especially the laugh (not that odd though since Frank Welker did both voices). Before that he is in one scene towards the start where he is with Laserbeak before Laserbeak goes out to assassinate people, and he is in car mode threatening to torture/kill Sam's new squeeze if he won't spy on the Autobots. He seemed fairly sadistic to me. My only experience with the character outside of these movies is in the 80s animated movie. He seemed more reserved there.

Shockwave didn't have many lines that I could understand. He controls those tenticle things in the previews. They seemed to imply with the close ups and his larger size that he should be something special. He lasted longer than all the fodder around him at least. Then Prime killed him (unless I am misremembering). In fairness though, Prime was in "death to all Decepticons" mode at that point and nothing was going to stop him.

I'm not sure which one would be Wheeljack, to be honest. There were a few Autobots who's name I didn't catch/don't remember.

The Glyphstone

2011-06-30, 10:01 PM

Wheeljack is the 'Toy Deception', if I remember right, or ex-Decepticon.

Traab

2011-06-30, 10:02 PM

Reverent-One

2011-06-30, 10:34 PM

Most, or all, of Soundwave's lines are towards the end of the movie. He has several Autobots as prisoners, then Dempsey's character shows up and says it's personal now so there will be no prisoners. Soundwave didn't seem to take much convincing to decide to start executing them. He kills one (don't know his name) before the soldiers intervene and allow the Autobots to start fighting back. Then Bumblebee is able to kill him. They must not have been doing much altering to his voice because he sounded like Dr.Claw the whole time, especially the laugh (not that odd though since Frank Welker did both voices). Before that he is in one scene towards the start where he is with Laserbeak before Laserbeak goes out to assassinate people, and he is in car mode threatening to torture/kill Sam's new squeeze if he won't spy on the Autobots. He seemed fairly sadistic to me. My only experience with the character outside of these movies is in the 80s animated movie. He seemed more reserved there.

Yeah, old school Soundwave was pretty much without emotions (other than loyalty). Very logical. Sadism doesn't really fit him.

Wheeljack is the 'Toy Deception', if I remember right, or ex-Decepticon.

If you're talking about the little one from the second movie, that's Wheelie.

The only way they could have screwed him up more is by making him a damn autobot.

Heh, the Armada tv series actually played with that idea, Starscream's rebellious side there manifested less as a thirst for power and more of a disillusionment with the way things were. It was actually an interesting and relatively well-handled subplot. Then he died and came back in Energon as Unicron's plaything. Meh.

Tyrant

2011-06-30, 11:24 PM

I cant believe they ruined starscream so thoroughly. I mean, the guy has his own damn trope named after him! Would it really have been that hard to have Star work behind the scenes to bring down and replace megatron as the big finale?I mean, thats been pretty much the theme of starscream in every transformer movie or tv series thats ever been released. He is an ambitious, only nominally loyal goon of megatron, and is constantly looking for his chance to take over. Any time megatron is slightly weakened, starscream makes a play for leadership. The only way they could have screwed him up more is by making him a damn autobot.
Being honest, I have no problem with the way they killed him. In the few incarnations of his character I have seen I am usually hoping that he will die in the least glorious way possible. I think one of the highlights of the 80s movie is when Galvatron blasts him to ash. I just see no sense in Megatron keeping someone like that around and I see no reason why any other Decepticon would ever follow Starscream if he did manage to take over.

Traab

2011-07-01, 07:42 AM

Being honest, I have no problem with the way they killed him. In the few incarnations of his character I have seen I am usually hoping that he will die in the least glorious way possible. I think one of the highlights of the 80s movie is when Galvatron blasts him to ash. I just see no sense in Megatron keeping someone like that around and I see no reason why any other Decepticon would ever follow Starscream if he did manage to take over.

Actually, I always looked at it like this. Starscream is generally powerful, and he usually has a handful of decepticons in whatever incarnation of the series he happens to be in, who are a part of his clique. Thats why if he DOES take over, he holds onto power. (until megatron comes back of course, lol) Megatron I always assumed, kept starscream around because he WAS really powerful, generally second only to him, and also because he was confidant that none of his plots would work. (They rarely did, and even more rarely for longer than a short series of episodes) Also because of his clique, wiping out star might cause a civil war in his own ranks. He didnt have enough decepticons to risk losing starscream AND his 3 or so buddies. And starscream was always ALMOST strong enough to outright challenge megatron, so he generally had that much support from the others.

I have no objection to him dying in the way you mentioned, but he needs to do something to earn it. In these movies he was almost a nonentity so there is no satisfaction in seeing him specifically die.

pendell

2011-07-02, 09:47 AM

This thread would not be complete without this scathing review (http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1663-review-transformers-dark-of-the-moon)

I walked out of "Transformers: Dark of the Moon," staggering, dazed, perhaps even limping. The first two "Transformers" films existed solely to assault the senses, but "Dark of the Moon" pulverizes them. My neck was sore, my legs shook, my synapses fried. If nothing else, Michael Bay knows how to take you on a ride. This ride is empty, brainless and quite possibly evil -- I am no expert in theology, but I'm pretty sure evil looks a lot like "Transformers 3" -- but you cannot say it is not a ride. This ride punches you in the face, shreds your frontal lobes and repeatedly kicks you in the groin, it sucks out any sort of soul you might have remaining and it should probably be regulated by the FDA or the ATF (not sure which), but it is certainly a ride. It honestly felt like I'd just done 15 rounds with vintage Tyson. Pregnant women are advised against seeing "Transformers 3," but then again, so is everybody. This film will make you feel like American entertainment is dead, spent, a vein no longer able to be tapped. It is nonstop sensation toward the ultimate, logical endpoint of death. Twelve hours after seeing the film, I am still mostly unable to feel my legs. Or love. Or hope. Anything, really. Also, I think the movie might have jarred loose one of my fillings.

*Chuckle*. Now I know why bad movies exist. They exist to employ film critics who can employ prose in the most fascinating ways to elegantly skewer that which desperately needs the treatment.

In any case ... does anyone agree with his assessment? Did you go to the movie but still keep all your fillings?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Traab

2011-07-02, 10:16 AM

The Glyphstone

2011-07-02, 12:06 PM

Traab

2011-07-02, 12:25 PM

And yet the 'scathing review' still gives it a C-minus. I want to read what this reviewer considers a D or F...

An F would go something like this,

Written by, Joanne Leitch

This is the last review of my husband Will, I cannot even begin to fully encompass the horror of this film. All I can do is grudgingly remember the look of sheer terror and absolute disgust that was forever frozen on my husbands face, as he took two staggering steps out of the theater, and fell over dead. The sound of retching filled the air, all coming from inside the cinema, as people vomited out of their minds and bodies sheer NEED to reject everything about this film from existence. Those who were still able to speak could only endlessly mutter about their need for a shower to erase the contamination they felt from having watched this piece of utter garbage. I found clenched in my husbands hands, a piece of paper with these words shakenly written to describe the things he saw.

"This movie contains all that is wrong with film. The dialogue plays out like a bad japanese chop suey flick, that is played at alvin and the chipmunk level speed, then yelled into a bucket of jello. The music tears at my ears, and send ripping pain down my spine, not even the most generous judgment allows me to say it ever matched the scenes it was played during. The scenery appears to have been designed by someone on a bad acid trip that was later edited by a badger on meth amphetamines. The plot? There is no plot, except by the director who apparently is plotting to make all movie goers commit suicide. I can only hope that I survive long enough to confirm with the ending credits that this film was produced by satan to trigger the end of days. If you value your immortal soul, loyal readers, PLEASE burn down the theaters that are showing this atrocity, as it cannot be allowed to spread. May god have mercy on my soul, which I can already feel being torn asunder."

Tyrant

2011-07-02, 05:50 PM

This thread would not be complete without this scathing review (http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1663-review-transformers-dark-of-the-moon)

*Chuckle*. Now I know why bad movies exist. They exist to employ film critics who can employ prose in the most fascinating ways to elegantly skewer that which desperately needs the treatment.

In any case ... does anyone agree with his assessment? Did you go to the movie but still keep all your fillings?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
I thought that it felt longer than it was. Other than that, I wasn't displeased in the actual viewing experience in any way. My senses and ability to move are fully intact.

Having had some time to think about it though, I do have a few complaints/questions about the actual movie.

1) Why did they say the Autobots had no way to leave Earth, after we saw them go to the moon which as of my last check was not actually on Earth? Was it because Sam was being controlled by that watch so he was forced to ask, even though he knew they had been to the moon and thus had the ability to leave the planet?

2) Why did the Decepticons need the Autobots to do anything? They didn't need Optimus to restart Sentinel Prime. Otherwise, they would've needed him, and something he didn't yet have, to restart Megatron in part 2 and that clearly was not the case.

3) They could reanimate Megatron and rebuild large chunks of his body, but they couldn't repair part of his head? Likewise with Bumblebee's voice?

I'm sure there's other things that don't quite add up, but those stood out to me. If they do part 4 and Leonard Nemoy is still willing and able, I say have them merge Sentinel Prime and Megatron's remains into Galvatron and have him do the voice. Or pony up the money and pay Frank Welker so he will at least sound like original animated Megatron. Maybe throw Unicron in there somewhere. Make Sam the official ambassador to the Autobots maybe.

userpay

2011-07-02, 06:03 PM

I thought that it felt longer than it was. Other than that, I wasn't displeased in the actual viewing experience in any way. My senses and ability to move are fully intact.

Having had some time to think about it though, I do have a few complaints/questions about the actual movie.

1) Why did they say the Autobots had no way to leave Earth, after we saw them go to the moon which as of my last check was not actually on Earth? Was it because Sam was being controlled by that watch so he was forced to ask, even though he knew they had been to the moon and thus had the ability to leave the planet?

2) Why did the Decepticons need the Autobots to do anything? They didn't need Optimus to restart Sentinel Prime. Otherwise, they would've needed him, and something he didn't yet have, to restart Megatron in part 2 and that clearly was not the case.

3) They could reanimate Megatron and rebuild large chunks of his body, but they couldn't repair part of his head? Likewise with Bumblebee's voice?

I'm sure there's other things that don't quite add up, but those stood out to me. If they do part 4 and Leonard Nemoy is still willing and able, I say have them merge Sentinel Prime and Megatron's remains into Galvatron and have him do the voice. Or pony up the money and pay Frank Welker so he will at least sound like original animated Megatron. Maybe throw Unicron in there somewhere. Make Sam the official ambassador to the Autobots maybe.

1) Well I think what it was is that ship wasn't the same one that was taken to the moon possibly (I don't recall the two designs well enough to compare). Due to the humans they'd have the means to go to the moon but beyond (which was implied) is a little more difficult.

2) Sentinel couldn't be revived without that warrior mark or whatever it was that could revive the transformers. As the Autobots had possession of it they had to be guided into reviving Sentinel because the mark was the only thing that could revive a transformer whose spark went out.

3) Not entirely sure on that point. Seemed like the spider bots were working on repairing Megatron but he kept flicking them away. Might have something to do with not having enough energon?

Tyrant

2011-07-02, 06:38 PM

1) Well I think what it was is that ship wasn't the same one that was taken to the moon possibly (I don't recall the two designs well enough to compare). Due to the humans they'd have the means to go to the moon but beyond (which was implied) is a little more difficult.
By the time that rolled around I couldn't recall what their ship they used to reach the moon looked like either.

2) Sentinel couldn't be revived without that warrior mark or whatever it was that could revive the transformers. As the Autobots had possession of it they had to be guided into reviving Sentinel because the mark was the only thing that could revive a transformer whose spark went out.
What I mean is, Megatron looked about as dead as a Transformer looks at the end of part 1/start of part 2. Yet all it took to revive him were some spare parts apparently. Sentinel is still in one piece, but he needs the magic chest piece (I think they said it was the Matrix)? While icepop Megatron didn't need it in part 1 after being on Earth several decades longer than SP was on the moon?

Though I guess that shouldn't surprise me. The animated movie has a similar situation. Optimus gets stabbed/shot/beaten and dies (and goes black and white) while Ultra Magnus gets blown to bits and is able to be reassembled and revived with a fresh coat of wax.

Muz

2011-07-02, 08:32 PM

Soras Teva Gee

2011-07-02, 11:09 PM

I don't think I've seen a movie since Highlander with such big and obvious flaws that I still somehow don't find it in me to actually dislike. Probably something to do with having absolutely no expectations of anything Transformers, since only the Beast Wars series has anything resembling quality on a consistent basis.

Some specific things:

Robo!Spock: Okay the casting could not be anything but awesome, but we only get one real scene between Robo!Spock and Not!Optimus, wasting the true potential to give a scene from Transformers you'd rather close your eyes and listen to. While the early foreshadowing was funny and well done actually doing his signature needs of the many line...... NARM!

Not!Optimus: Out of character much? I'm sorry if I'm being to devoted to the moral guardianship that oversaw my childhood, but Optimus Prime should not be talking about blatantly killing people. He's verging on anti-hero territory in this movie, especially that final bit of the end battle. It was reaaal nice to see his trailer though, it would also have been nice to see it in action when it was needed for the action as opposed to earlier.

Not Enough Robots: Seriously I think this movie has the least characterization or presence for the Autobots and Decepticons. Even by the cardboard cutout standards most were in the first place. They hardly talk, they are off screen for way too much of the movie, and none get to establish themselves well enough. Exception for Laserbeak who's awesome. Unfortunate and maddening exception for the comic relief ones who aren't Bumblebee. Might avoid the Tomfoolery of the last movie by a hair, but its obvious only one step removed. A small step.

Also shouldn't there be more of robots? Particularly the Autobots. And while the Deceptions get great numbers, its now faceless mooks who worse still are identical. Shockwave is wasted for his Sandworm beast he apparently runs and I think I liked Soundwave better as a satellite.

Too Many Fleshbags: I'm sorry but I don't care about the humans. Particularly Shia LaWesleyCrusher but all of them just serve to distract me from my giant robots. They weren't even as awesome as they were in the last one. I love spec ops guys but I just don't believe the tactics and forces used against space robot death machine. Also the fleshbags spend less time interacting with the giant robots I'm there to see then before.

Did You Just Punch Out Starscream: What.

Autobot Political Interventions: WHAT (gods help us if this wasnt' a throwaway part)

Also:

Fridge moment:

If Sentinel Prime had already made his deal with Megatron, why did the Arc ever get shot down in the FIRST place?

I probably shouldn't even ask why this Decepticon army that apparently hung out on the moon for the past 3 or 4 decades wasn't called in to help in either of the preceding movies, huh? :smallsmile:

Two of quite a number of plotholes big enough to throw Cybertron through.

I am seriously wondering why I don't hate this movie.

McStabbington

2011-07-03, 12:36 AM

Saw a midnight showing of it, and I really liked it. Of course I liked the first two so my opinion might not matter to a lot of people. It had a suitable number of explosions and robots killing each other, and the woman they got to replace Megan Fox is suitably hot. It did feel a little long, but all in all I thought it was pretty good.

Maybe it's just me, but every time they show her looking at something, I wonder if she's having an allergic reaction. Those lips were pushing her into Uncanny Valley territory.

Zevox

2011-07-03, 09:40 AM

*Chuckle*. Now I know why bad movies exist. They exist to employ film critics who can employ prose in the most fascinating ways to elegantly skewer that which desperately needs the treatment.

In any case ... does anyone agree with his assessment? Did you go to the movie but still keep all your fillings?

Respectfully,

Brian P.
Wow, someone who had a lower opinion of that movie than Spoony or the Cinema Snob. I mean, they hated it too, but both admit that it was at least better than the second movie. Spoony even commented that if you came into it about 90 minutes late it would be a good brainless action movie.

For myself though, I'm not going to see it. Haven't seen the second either. After watching the first movie I decided that I will not go see another of these until I hear that the movie is actually about the Transformers, not a bunch of humans with the Transformers as guest-stars. From everything I've heard, this movie and the second still have way too much of human characters I wouldn't care about for me. Call me when they do a Transformers movie where the humans only take up about 10-15% of the screen time and have a sub-plot or two at most and then I'll consider it.

Though as long as they're churning out this crap I'll at least have amusing reviews of them from internet critics to read/watch, so I guess one way or the other they're entertaining me.

Zevox

Obrysii

2011-07-03, 09:44 AM

I liked it, except for Sam's parents.

Also, the end,
Prime's rather brutal and merciless killing of Megatron really bothered me. It just seemed out of character.

Favorite thing? "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" a nice little meta thing there.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-07-03, 10:29 AM

Favorite thing? "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" a nice little meta thing there.

It struck me as incredibly lame. Major Narm territory. Also I think I was the only one in my theater that got it.

Contrast with the much nicer Star Trek quip earlier in the movie.

JadedDM

2011-07-03, 02:18 PM

Actually, it was backwards. In the movie, they said "The needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many." The original quote from Wrath of Khan was "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

Also, I agree with Spoony on this. Transformers 3 is nowhere near as good enough a movie to be quoting one of the greatest science-fiction films of all time.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-07-03, 04:59 PM

Seriously, I probably was in too much disbelief to actually listen. I'm not going again to check on what Robo!Spock said certainly.

Either way around yeah this movie is not worthy to be pulling **** like that. Try giving us a Robo!Spock with actual depth and not the illusion of it first. And get Not!Optimus in character too. Then we can start throwing great quotes like that around.

Traab

2011-07-03, 05:16 PM

Also, I agree with Spoony on this. Transformers 3 is nowhere near as good enough a movie to be quoting one of the greatest science-fiction films of all time.

When did they quote Galaxy Quest?

Muz

2011-07-03, 06:25 PM

When did they quote Galaxy Quest?

"AND it exploded!" :smallwink:

Solaris

2011-07-03, 08:48 PM

This thread would not be complete without this scathing review (http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1663-review-transformers-dark-of-the-moon)

[Ragey hate]

*Chuckle*. Now I know why bad movies exist. They exist to employ film critics who can employ prose in the most fascinating ways to elegantly skewer that which desperately needs the treatment.

In any case ... does anyone agree with his assessment? Did you go to the movie but still keep all your fillings?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

I don't. I disagree rather strongly. I like Transformers 3. I don't care if a critic dislikes the movie, because it entertained me.

Maybe it's just me, but every time they show her looking at something, I wonder if she's having an allergic reaction. Those lips were pushing her into Uncanny Valley territory.

I thought I was the only one. At least she wasn't a terrible actress.

I'm rather confused, though, about the complaints with Optimus Prime being out of character. The Decepticons demonstrated that not only did they want to kill the Autobots, they wanted to enslave all of the humans and generally wreck Earth. This, against the Prime who said "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings". He established Earth and humans were his adopted home and people. Sentinel Prime betrayed Optimus, the Autobots, and the humans, in a plan that would involve some serious destruction in a large scale, rather than the small-scale covert stuff they've been pulling earlier.
Optimus Prime, a warrior-leader who has thus far bent over backwards to save human lives (even to the point of taking a beating from Megs in the first movie and giving up his own in the second movie), reaches the conclusion that the Decepticons are now too great a threat to human life to tolerate their presence any longer. Thus, he axes Megatron and Sentinel Prime because that's what he must do in order to protect the ones he loves. He sees at this time that if he doesn't, they're just going to do it again and again. They've killed one planet, they're trying to kill Earth, they must be stopped or they'll just keep doing it.
How is that out of character?

My complaint was how they handled Megatron, just in general how they handled Megatron. The boss of the first movie should've been Starscream, with Megs showing up at the end for the epilogue. Megatron should've been in the second movie, pretty much the same as he was but also giving him the Fallen's role, too. Then the third movie, as it is.

Tyrant

2011-07-03, 09:29 PM

I'm rather confused, though, about the complaints with Optimus Prime being out of character. The Decepticons demonstrated that not only did they want to kill the Autobots, they wanted to enslave all of the humans and generally wreck Earth. This, against the Prime who said "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings". He established Earth and humans were his adopted home and people. Sentinel Prime betrayed Optimus, the Autobots, and the humans, in a plan that would involve some serious destruction in a large scale, rather than the small-scale covert stuff they've been pulling earlier.
Optimus Prime, a warrior-leader who has thus far bent over backwards to save human lives (even to the point of taking a beating from Megs in the first movie and giving up his own in the second movie), reaches the conclusion that the Decepticons are now too great a threat to human life to tolerate their presence any longer. Thus, he axes Megatron and Sentinel Prime because that's what he must do in order to protect the ones he loves. He sees at this time that if he doesn't, they're just going to do it again and again. They've killed one planet, they're trying to kill Earth, they must be stopped or they'll just keep doing it.
How is that out of character?
I think what everyone finds out of character is that just before giving him an axe to the face, Megatron was saying something about a truce for the good of Cybertron and he had just saved Prime's life. Someone who seems like the type to be concerned with honor wouldn't sucker punch someone who just saved their life and is talking about a truce. Had he at least tossed out the "one shall stand and one shall fall" line to give something of a warning so the fight at least seemed fair, then I don't think anyone would question it. Instead it's like "Thanks for saving my life, but I think I'm going to bury my axe in your face now." To be clear, I'm not saying Megatron didn't deserve it. He's shown he can't be trusted and that he is a threat. I'm saying the way it went down doesn't seem to gel with Prime's character up to that point. The whole "We will kill them all" line doesn't help either. This from the same guy who seemed to mourn the fact Megatron was killed in part 1.

kpenguin

2011-07-03, 09:34 PM

I've always been under the impression that one of the goals for both sides of the Transformer civil war was reunification between Autobot and Decepticon. "Till all are one" and such.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-07-03, 11:56 PM

I'm rather confused, though, about the complaints with Optimus Prime being out of character.

Because the good guys aren't supposed to give orders like "Kill them all!" for one, just dismiss all talk of truce, or just unilaterally execute a defeated opponent. Whatever the bad guys have done or attempted to do or how much they deserve it.

Now sure one can justify capital punishment sure or killing in the heat of battle, but there's a fine line between acceptable killing and killing because you want them dead. Not!Prime in this movie comes off as hateful and even genocidal (Kill all Decepticons!) with little remorse or regret.

He's gets one step away from speaking some variation of "with us or against us" in all its Knight Templar glory.

Solaris

2011-07-04, 01:55 AM

I think what everyone finds out of character is that just before giving him an axe to the face, Megatron was saying something about a truce for the good of Cybertron and he had just saved Prime's life. Someone who seems like the type to be concerned with honor wouldn't sucker punch someone who just saved their life and is talking about a truce. Had he at least tossed out the "one shall stand and one shall fall" line to give something of a warning so the fight at least seemed fair, then I don't think anyone would question it. Instead it's like "Thanks for saving my life, but I think I'm going to bury my axe in your face now." To be clear, I'm not saying Megatron didn't deserve it. He's shown he can't be trusted and that he is a threat. I'm saying the way it went down doesn't seem to gel with Prime's character up to that point. The whole "We will kill them all" line doesn't help either. This from the same guy who seemed to mourn the fact Megatron was killed in part 1.

I see that as less out-of-character and more character development. In the first movie, it would've been OOC for him to do that - though less because of honor (I've never seen Movie-verse Prime really be concerned about honor) - and more because it just wouldn't be right. He's since had some time to change.
Remember Brawler, the one he brutally took out in the first movie? Prime ain't been a nice guy since Day One. Perhaps there's some reason he had for wanting to preserve Megatron, such as that line "You left me no choice... brother", but after the first movie Optimus reached the conclusion that reason isn't at all worth the risk.

I've always been under the impression that one of the goals for both sides of the Transformer civil war was reunification between Autobot and Decepticon. "Till all are one" and such.

My thought is that it's a different canon here. Most importantly, it was Megatron, the supreme jerk of the Decepticons. Perhaps without him, peace is possible. Honestly, at this point, it's not exactly desirable.

Because the good guys aren't supposed to give orders like "Kill them all!" for one, just dismiss all talk of truce, or just unilaterally execute a defeated opponent. Whatever the bad guys have done or attempted to do or how much they deserve it.

Yes, yes they are. See, there's this thing called a war. Once begun, the only solution is to end it. The way you end a human war is by breaking the enemy's will. Assuming the Cybertronians are the same, you'd have to give them such massive casualties that the very notion of messing with you is permanently engraved in their minds as a Very Bad Idea. They have no territory, no civilians, just a drive to conquer and destroy anything that stands in their way. You can't solve that kind of a problem with warm fuzzies. Even with us, peace comes only after one party has demonstrated superiority over the other, or both parties are so damaged that they realize a risk of someone else beating them both.

Now sure one can justify capital punishment sure or killing in the heat of battle, but there's a fine line between acceptable killing and killing because you want them dead. Not!Prime in this movie comes off as hateful and even genocidal (Kill all Decepticons!) with little remorse or regret.

I might be the only person on the planet who finds fan nicknames like that to be annoying. Alas, I'll live with it.
So... ending a genocidal opponent who wiped out one species and tried to wipe out another, that's not acceptable? Or was Optimus supposed to go for a diplomatic solution with someone wholly evil? There are degrees of disagreement that simply cannot be reconciled. An Optimus Prime willing to die rather than let someone he's protecting die cannot be reconciled with a Megatron who is willing to kill an entire world so he can live a little longer. He shouldn't try to reconcile, not after Megatron has spent eons conquering and destroying so much that he helped kill off his own planet.

He's gets one step away from speaking some variation of "with us or against us" in all its Knight Templar glory.

Given how genocidal the Decepticons were... I see nothing at all wrong with that. In the face of an absolute evil like that, there's nothing for someone who's as life-loving and freedom-loving as Optimus to do besides end it. The Decepticons have proven for thousands upon thousands of years that they can't be trusted, that you can't make peace with 'em, that they'll just kill and enslave and destroy. Optimus gave 'em one last chance in the first movie, then in the second he started getting more brutal. Good reason, too: They demonstrated that they were perfectly willing to wipe out an entire planet for their own gain. They tried to do it twice.

Obrysii

2011-07-04, 08:25 AM

There's only two ways I can rationalize it.

One, Prime obviously has stopped taking Paladin levels and has picked up Barbarian levels and then Frenzied Beserker since the end of Transformers 1; his beserker-style fighting in both Revenge of the Fallen and Dark of the Moon showcases this. So when he mercilessly killed Megatron and Sentinal, it was because he was still frenzied.

Two, since his arrival on Earth, he's seen his people kicked around by the Decepticons, by humans, and then his own father figure. He's genuinely slipping. He's decidedly losing his lawfulness, and even his good alignment. He's certainly losing his path with the fact he opted to take neither prisoner.

Honestly, if they make another movie, it'll have either Optimus as the villain (Nemesis Prime) or Unicron as the villain.

Soras Teva Gee

2011-07-04, 10:17 AM

Solaris

2011-07-04, 10:34 AM

@Solaris: You seem to acknowledge the character shift. Where we disagree is that Optimus Prime is not supposed to be a shifting character like that. He's a steady messiah-esque leader figure, which is why he gets to come back from the dead. And what do messiahs do?

Static characters are also pretty darned boring. Optimus started off the as naive messiah, many eons ago. He became a warrior by necessity, gradually become less and less 'knight in shining armor', getting more to the 'knight in tarnished armor'. He still has the same motivations, still the same character at the core. There's just none of that shiny, wide-eyed idealism that says you can make friends with anyone.

Given that the second movie features Decepticon defectors and this one an Autobot defector it becomes much harder to pass judgement. On the Decepticon end at least its seems many of them simply haven't ever had the opportunity to make a choice. Why can't Megatron change, or at least honor some mutually acceptable truce? We know he can't because he's Megatron and that in the end would be out of character for him. But that doesn't change that the Autobots are supposed to at least try it no matter how many times it doesn't work out.

They're good, not stupid. Just because the Autobots are the good guys doesn't mean they need to cling so desperately to the Idiot Ball: Having seen everything of Megatron that we have, I find it entirely understandable if Optimus Prime reaches the same conclusions we do that you simply cannot have a truce with Megatron. Was it coldhearted for Optimus to order the Autbots to kill every Decepticon that they ran across? Absolutely. The Decepticons also killed everyone they've ever known.

Remember when Wheelie acted so surprised that Jetfire defected? It just doesn't happen. Heck, Decepticons all over the world had the opportunity to defect in the years between the second and third movies. They didn't. It's unreasonable to expect the newcomers would be any different.

Obrysii

2011-07-04, 12:46 PM

My complaint was how they handled Megatron, just in general how they handled Megatron. The boss of the first movie should've been Starscream, with Megs showing up at the end for the epilogue. Megatron should've been in the second movie, pretty much the same as he was but also giving him the Fallen's role, too. Then the third movie, as it is.

Or if they kept the first movie as-is, in the second he should have been resurrected by the Fallen's spirit (or better, a brief hint of Unicron) - essentially a spontaneous resurrection on the ocean floor - perhaps showing a faint energon glow flowing out of cracks at the ocean's floor into him. Reawakened, he has knowledge of the ancient energon-collector and sees it as his goal to reactivate it.

Instead, they have him as the lackey to an old decepticon.

Solaris

2011-07-04, 02:43 PM

Or if they kept the first movie as-is, in the second he should have been resurrected by the Fallen's spirit (or better, a brief hint of Unicron) - essentially a spontaneous resurrection on the ocean floor - perhaps showing a faint energon glow flowing out of cracks at the ocean's floor into him. Reawakened, he has knowledge of the ancient energon-collector and sees it as his goal to reactivate it.

I really like that idea. I like it a lot more than "They just resurrect him because". Heck, I'd be happier with "Megatron comes back because he's Just That Evil"... and is a super-advanced war machine which quite possibly does have some manner of self-repairing capability.
I also take issue with Optimus apparently being able to resurrect Sentinel Prime... but he doesn't resurrect the Arcees or Jazz. Or any of the other Autobot casualties. I mean, they show Optimus coming back from serious damage, while Jazz wasn't that much more damaged than Bumblebee... so what gives?

Instead, they have him as the lackey to an old decepticon.

Dare I say... Decrepticon? Hur hur hur. Yeah, I hated that part. Megatron bows to nothing. He's Big Billy Badass in the first movie, then he spends the next two being the Fallen's and Sentinel Prime's prison bride.

Zevox

2011-07-04, 03:20 PM

Yeah, I hated that part. Megatron bows to nothing.
No kidding. To quote a much better movie, this is the guy who, while floating through space dying, nearly refused Unicron's offer to both save him and make him more powerful because it would require him to serve Unicron.

Unicron: "You belong to me, now."
Megatron: "I belong to nobody!"

And then of course after accepting his offer and becoming Galvatron he later has the balls to not only betray the planet-sized world-eater, but fly right up to him and demand that Unicron serve him.

Yeah, Megatron playing second banana to anyone just should not happen.

Zevox

lightningcat

2011-07-04, 09:16 PM

I liked the movie. It mostly made up for the second. The only things I really wanted was Starscream acting as the Air Commander that he is, and Sentinal Prime to kill Mearing.

As for "Kill them all" that sounds like a wonderful sentiment when outnumbered 30 to 1 and you got no way to take prisoners anyways. Plus the war had been raging on for how long? This was more or less the last stand for the Autobots.
Anyways, Optimus didn't mercilessly kill either Sentinal or Megatron, he executed them. And at least in Sentinal's case it was his right and responsibility as the leader of the Autobots. A position twice confirmed by Sentinal. In the movies Optimus acts like a leader, which is more than can be said for the G1 version. Yes it was a children's show from the 80's, but still...
But on the upside, we got to see Bumblebee kill humans, that was awesome.

Foeofthelance

2011-07-04, 10:45 PM

Fridge moment:

If Sentinel Prime had already made his deal with Megatron, why did the Arc ever get shot down in the FIRST place?

I probably shouldn't even ask why this Decepticon army that apparently hung out on the moon for the past 3 or 4 decades wasn't called in to help in either of the preceding movies, huh? :smallsmile:

According to the book, the Ark was shot down by none other than Starscream. So either A) Megatron neglected to mention that he had gotten an Autobot leader to defect because he didn't feel Starscream needed to know, b) Starscream was doing it deliberately to screw up Megatron's plan, or C) was doing to it to eliminate Sentinel as a potential rival, all of which would have been in character for them. My best guess would just be the first one, though.

As for why they're just now getting around to recruiting the army on the moon, its probably because Sentinel had the command codes, most likely because he had brainwashed/reprogrammed them against betrayal by Megatron? Megatron would have waited until now to try and recover Sentinel because before now he figured he could have just taken the Earth on his own, and it wasn't until his defeat and damaging at the end of RotF that he realized he needed help.

I'm also going to chime in on the, "It makes sense" side for Optimus killing Megatron. In the past three movies we've seen Megatron:

1) Come back from being frozen for centuries
2) Try to take over the world
3) Come back from getting killed by the All Spark
4) Try to blow up the sun
5) Seduce Optimus's father figure to the dark side
6) Back stab the Autobots after accepting their surrender by destroying the transport that was supposed to be taking them from Earth. The only reason the Autobots survive is because they were expecting the Decepticons to try such a trick.
7) Order and manage the destruction of Chicago and its inhabitants
8) Order the assassination of any human who helped the Decepticons
9) Back stab Sentinel Prime

So Megatron says, "This is silly, I'm beaten, let's have a truce!" and Optimus hears, "Yeah, I just got my rear handed to me. Let's say you and I play nice until I'm back on my feet and find a new way to screw you and the Earth over?" Not being an idiot, he finishes off Megatron. Its nice to be able to redeem villains and all that, and sure they might get some more defectors off the surviving Decepticons, but Megatron is basically a remorseless rabid dog that doesn't know when to just lay down and die. If I were prime I wouldn't just kill him, I'd chop the body up and dump the parts in different oceans while mounting the head on my mantle, just so I could keep an eye on it. Possibly with some sort of large cannon targeting it so that if even twitches it gets pulverized again.

Zaydos

2011-07-05, 01:01 AM

TheLaughingMan

2011-07-05, 01:23 AM

Now Optimus was never ready to exterminate all Decepticons, but he had no problem coming in and killing any that were attacking Autobot City in the old movie, so I'd have to see the situation before commenting on whether it was truly out of character.

It's still considered bad form to off an opponent who is requesting a truce.

And I'm a bit confused by you, Solaris. Usually, devolving into a blood-thirsty psychopath is not considered character development. If anything, I'd call it an unraveling.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-05, 01:30 AM

I am most certainly looking forward to this one.

I always find the Critics / Viewers difference of opinion entertaining, and since the second movie was the poster child for that (an average score of under 30 I think (for critics) and over 80 (for viewers)... Some reviews were almost desperately begging the viewers not to enjoy it.

Plus, you know... BIG ROBOTS. BABES. EXPLOSIONS. And BIG ROBOTS.

Yeah, I'm there.

Reverent-One

2011-07-05, 09:00 AM

Haven't seen the 2nd or 3rd of the new movies yet, but I must say:

"You who are without mercy, now plead for it?"

The only reason Optimus Prime didn't kill Megatron as Megatron was begging for mercy (and trying to sneak closer to a gun to shoot Prime with) in the old cartoon movie was because Hot Rod jumped into the fray and became a human (or robot) shield for the Decepticon leader.

That's hard to say, as Hot Rod jumps in too quickly. All we can say for sure is that Optimus didn't immediately say "No mercy" and blow Megatron up.

Now Optimus was never ready to exterminate all Decepticons, but he had no problem coming in and killing any that were attacking Autobot City in the old movie, so I'd have to see the situation before commenting on whether it was truly out of character.

That's fighting a battle and protecting his men/women/whatever, not making sure to kill every one of them. A number of those he blew through actually weren't killed, once they were damaged enough to no longer be a threat, he moved on.

Bob_the_Mighty

2011-07-05, 12:01 PM

The "kill them all" line may sound a bit harsh, but the "them" he's referring to is the Decepticon army that just teleported in and starting laying waste to the entire city. They've been gunning down humans who were doing nothing but attempting to flee. They don't really seem like they deserve much mercy, and it's already been pointed out that the Autobots don't actually have any means to take prisoners.

On the topic of killing Megatron, it does seem kind of OOC for him to just execute him, but Megatron said more than just wanting a truce. IIRC he went on to say that he still wanted to be in charge, which doesn't sound like a very appealing truce to me.

Muz

2011-07-05, 01:04 PM

I look forward to when CGI tech is cheap/good enough to allow us a Transformers movie about Transformers (where they actually have character and differences and time to explore them beyond 5 or 6 lines), rather than a movie about humans dealing with a giant alien robot invasion with some of the giant alien robots fighting on our side.

Still a ways off, though, I suspect.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-05, 01:11 PM

I look forward to when CGI tech is cheap/good enough to allow us a Transformers movie about Transformers

Funny, I disagree with your premise completely. The Michael Bay version of the robots are by far the best one ever made. All comics and TV and movies included.

Muz

2011-07-05, 01:18 PM

Funny, I disagree with your premise completely. The Michael Bay version of the robots are by far the best one ever made. All comics and TV and movies included.

Oh, I wasn't arguing about the quality of the FX on screen that we do have. It's just that--and I confess this is a theory only--they're expensive, and having the 'bots as the main characters, rather than Sam and such, with all the additional screen time this would require is likely cost-prohibitive. So they whittle down the robot's parts, and have the humans carry the story.

Of course, it's also possible that the reason it's so human-focused is because they're worried that people won't be able to relate to robots, but I expect F/X cost is also a factor.

Maho-Tsukai

2011-07-05, 01:37 PM

"Honestly, if they make another movie, it'll have either Optimus as the villain (Nemesis Prime) or Unicron as the villain.
"

Either that or somebody new picks up where the decepticons left off. An ambitious transformer who had escaped cybertron before it was shattered by war. An ambitious, cunning transformer dilusions of grandure. Years after the battle with the decepticons the autobots have been on earth totally unaware that a new non-human threat has been brewing on cybertron and they realize too late that somebody has taken on the mantle of Megatron...

A new megatron, with a new army that bears a new name has turned the abandon waste of cybertron into his own empire and he has his eyes on what his namesake failed to claim....The Vehicon Empire Marches on the tiny planet of earth with the GREATEST Megatron at the healm....yessssss....

In all seirousness, though with Sam Whitwickey out of the picture(guy with werid name who plays him won't be making transformers films anymore) I see the next movie taking place many years in the future either with Sam as an adult and his kids being the new mains or a entirely new human cast. While Unicron or Nemisis Prime would be more likely as villains, Beast Wars/Machines Megs would be totally awesome and the imagery of a giant mecha-dragon in movieverse desgine astethetic is too cool to pass up. Though if they did go that route they MUST get David Kay to voice him, must fire Michal Bay as director and actually get somebody decient to write the script and direct the film. Beast Wars Megatron must be done justice if he appears in live action format!

Reverent-One

2011-07-05, 08:03 PM

Funny, I disagree with your premise completely. The Michael Bay version of the robots are by far the best one ever made. All comics and TV and movies included.

Ha ha ha...ha...oh, you're serious, aren't you? Bay's transformers are some of the ugliest ones ever designed, and that's leaving aside the massive gaps in their armor the segmented design gives them.

JadedDM

2011-07-06, 02:07 AM

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-06, 03:37 AM

Ha ha ha...ha...oh, you're serious, aren't you? Bay's transformers are some of the ugliest ones ever designed, and that's leaving aside the massive gaps in their armor the segmented design gives them.

Yes I am serious, since I have always HATED the designs in the comics and cartoons (especially the use of hammerspace, which totally broke my suspension of disbelief, even as a 12 year old. Megatron as a handgun? ROFL). In these movies the robots look... dare I say it... realistic. Especially since they are made so that every. single. piece. go somewhere.

And I also disagree on the "ugly" part. Bumblebee, for example, are about 100 times better looking than he ever was in any other adaptation. Maybe Arcee isn't, if you are into the whole "pink fake metal boobs look", which I just point and laugh at.

My favorite transformer of the Bay movies is that big, grey one. You know which one I mean, right?

Sarcasm? Funny, I can see the difference of "all the big grey ones" (that would be Starscream and Megatron, both with very distinctive looks and easy to tell apart).

Reverent-One

2011-07-06, 09:55 AM

Yes I am serious, since I have always HATED the designs in the comics and cartoons (especially the use of hammerspace, which totally broke my suspension of disbelief, even as a 12 year old. Megatron as a handgun? ROFL). In these movies the robots look... dare I say it... realistic. Especially since they are made so that every. single. piece. go somewhere.

They look like they were designed by someone with a bug fetish. Transformers: War for cybertron has every single piece go somewhere too, and they look far superior to Bay-formers. As for megatron being a gun, how about we take any of the other half-dozen versions of megatron, many of whom turned into some form of tank.

And I also disagree on the "ugly" part. Bumblebee, for example, are about 100 times better looking than he ever was in any other adaptation. Maybe Arcee isn't, if you are into the whole "pink fake metal boobs look", which I just point and laugh at.

Good thing I never said Acree's metal boobs were what I thought looked better then. I don't see what there is to like about Bumblebee, who has a face not even a robot mother could love. And then there's how they turned this bad*** bot:
http://host.trivialbeing.org/up/transformers-jul29-the-fallen-revenge-of-the-fallen.jpg

into this terminator/lego bionicle reject:
http://www.sideshowsito.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/transformers-fallen-big-robot-photo.jpg

Tyrant

2011-07-06, 10:07 AM

They look like they were designed by someone with a bug fetish. Transformers: War for cybertron has every single piece go somewhere too, and they look far superior to Bay-formers. As for megatron being a gun, how about we take any of the other half-dozen versions of megatron, many of whom turned into some form of tank.
I've always been partial to Beast Wars Dragon Megatron myself.
http://home.insightbb.com/~alyssa.alvey/15a418b60.jpg
Or, his Generation 2 look.
http://usuarios.multimania.es/toxicoyeah3/G2TankMegatron.jpg
Although I think I like that look because I was reading this at the time, and then the Generation 2 comic that followed.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-CgxZYFo-voQ/TVV5sOqtD4I/AAAAAAAACN8/kehmjY6lzi8/s1600/m139.jpg
And while I'm posting pictures I turned up in Transformer picture searches, here is one team up that I wish would've happened in the cartoon just to hear the same voice actor have a conversation with himself.
http://store.decepticon-matrix.com/tfvsgijoev2_dw_05.jpg
And a team up for anyone that has seen the Transformers animated movie and the G.I.Joe animated movie.
http://bwmedia.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/jvtf2-unicron-la.jpg

Zevox

2011-07-06, 11:44 AM

Oh, I wasn't arguing about the quality of the FX on screen that we do have. It's just that--and I confess this is a theory only--they're expensive, and having the 'bots as the main characters, rather than Sam and such, with all the additional screen time this would require is likely cost-prohibitive. So they whittle down the robot's parts, and have the humans carry the story.

Of course, it's also possible that the reason it's so human-focused is because they're worried that people won't be able to relate to robots, but I expect F/X cost is also a factor.
If that's the case, they need to ditch the whole "live action with CGI robots" thing entirely and just do the movies in animation. Because if the cost of the effects on the robots is actually preventing them from making the titular characters the focus of the movies, then doing the movies in live action is actively harming them.

Zevox

Comet

2011-07-06, 03:36 PM

Saw the movie just now and it was pretty stupid. The human parts were a snore, the female lead was ugly and dumb and there were so many parts in there that could have been left out without the movie losing anything of any value.

On the positive side, the final battle between Optimus and his two enemies was pretty badass. I really wish we could have a movie full of these robot characters, since their long history in other stories and such brings them way more depth and drama than anything Bay could hope to achieve with his cliché American everyday supersoldiers.

So, um, two thirds worth of waiting for something to happen and then one third of admittedly pretty exciting robot action. And the 3D was surprisingly decent. Lucky me the ticket didn't cost a fortune, I suppose.

hamishspence

2011-07-06, 03:40 PM

How about a prequel- showing Megatron's fall (I think it may have been mentioned in the comics he wasn't always evil), the war on Cybertron, Megatron's crash in the Arctic, and its ending with the arrival at Earth of the Autobots?

More opportunity to focus on the robots. More personality-developing time.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-06, 10:20 PM

the female lead was ugly

What.
Sorry, I know different strokes for different folks and all that, but... what?

Comet

2011-07-07, 06:48 AM

What.
Sorry, I know different strokes for different folks and all that, but... what?

Well, okay, I know people who are more ugly but I also know plenty of people, 'regular' people at that, who are significantly more attractive. Might have been her character's personality playing a part, but the general opinion among our group as we left the theatre was that we would rather never see her in another movie again.

So, not ugly in the 'got hit in the face by a truck' sense, but definitely not someone I'd like to spend any significant amount of time looking at, either. Just gave me the witch sort of vibes.

Aotrs Commander

2011-07-07, 10:16 AM

Well, I enjoyed it, though once again it wasn't as good as the original. (And I don't mean the first Michel Bay film.)

I was pleased to see that I could actually see what was going on this time, which made the action sequences much better.

Again, though, far too many humans, and they let them have far too much of the action. The Deceptions were like metallic zerg, seriously. The fact they rarely spoke apart from snarls made me think of the zerg (I've only just finished a back-to-back play of Starcraft 1&2). They seemed less like characters and more like monsters. Aside from the far under-used "major" characters. (I say "major" since the Transformers got very little screen time again, and even less character development. I didn't really feel much for Ironhide, since even after three movies, he still didn't have enough character for me to care much; and I liked the original.)

Starscream's death was predicable and as some have stated, woefully undeserved. Now, I should say that, for me the G1 Marvel comic continuity (specifically the much-expanded UK line) has and always will be the "true" Transformers (even more so than the cartoon). It was grittier, messier and Transformers got injured and died. And Starscream was always protrayed as at least competant, and often downright dangerous. (He also got a couple of levels of Affable Evil and actaully acted cunning.) Starscream was thus my favourite Transformer (Grimlock being second, with Soundwave and Jazz coming close thereafter; and the later version of Bumblebee got pretty cool, too.)

With the Marvel continuity in mind, I didn't find it that much out of character from Prime to go all badarse on the Decepticons. Prime has this problem (in-between his frequent bouts of death) wherein he'd start to question what he was doing, then get into a big fight and then feel better. (No, really, this happened about 3-4 times!) At the end of the day, Prime was a soldier, not Superman; by the very end of the run, he had no problems wiping out all the Decepticons (in either of the two finales - one of which was in the last UK Transformers annual).

Laserbeak was cool (in fact, it was probably the best non-comic verson of him, and I'd even debate about it being the best period), though once again, he deserved a much better send off.

Leonard Nimoy was a pleasent surprise. (That means he's been in 50% of all the big-screen Transformers releases!) Me and my Mum both cracked up at the Star Trek line (totally worth having in for!) Heck, Sentinel Prime had more character than most of the rest of cast, so I'll at least say that.

(Megatron was, once again, wasted. They could have left him dead after the first one; it's not like the Decepticons were ever short of leaders, between Shockwave, Galvatron (via time travel and about half-a-dozen alternate universes!), Scorpanok, Ratbat and, and one glorious point, Soundwave and Starscream together!

Fun fact: Soundwave assumed command so often, he was nearly leader more than Megatron, during the comic run. And indeed, at one point in the future continuity, all the aforementioned being dead, he was basically permenatly leader. Patience is a virtue and all that!)

Let's just hope if they do another one (sans Bay and Labouf) they actuallt make it about the Transformers. As, y'know, the comics (and the latter seasons on the cartoon) didn't need humans to tell a gripping story, because the Transformers themselves were character enough.

It's a vain hope, but a comic-version Grimlock one the big screen would be awesome. But, if there is another one, I will keep my expectations as firmly on the ground as I have with the last three I went into each one with zero expectations, and was surprised that it wasn't quite as bad as it could have been...

Muz

2011-07-07, 10:39 AM

It's a vain hope, but a comic-version Grimlock on the big screen would be awesome. But, if there is another one, I will keep my expectations as firmly on the ground as I have with the last three I went into each one with zero expectations, and was surprised that it wasn't quite as bad as it could have been...

If Grimlock were to appear in Bay's movies, he would have a single line: "Me Grimlock <something-something>," then spend the rest of the movie with a 30 second fight scene in which he takes center stage, and the rest being background.

Cynical? Me? :smallwink:

Aotrs Commander

2011-07-07, 10:47 AM

If Grimlock were to appear in Bay's movies, he would have a single line: "Me Grimlock <something-something>," then spend the rest of the movie with a 30 second fight scene in which he takes center stage, and the rest being background.

Cynical? Me? :smallwink:

I think you're being overly optimistic, to be honest...

Reverent-One

2011-07-08, 08:46 PM

It's a vain hope, but a comic-version Grimlock one the big screen would be awesome. But, if there is another one, I will keep my expectations as firmly on the ground as I have with the last three I went into each one with zero expectations, and was surprised that it wasn't quite as bad as it could have been...

I don't know what the UK comic line grimlock was like, but this is one of the many reasons I'd love to have a Transformers movie based on the Dreamwave War Within comics. "Me Grimlock, Badass!"

Aotrs Commander

2011-07-09, 06:55 AM

I don't know what the UK comic line grimlock was like, but this is one of the many reasons I'd love to have a Transformers movie based on the Dreamwave War Within comics. "Me Grimlock, Badass!"

Simon Furman was the writer for that; and he was the major writer for a lot of the stuff both sides of the pond. He was behind the Earthforce (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Earthforce). Despite it's continuity problems1, it has some of my absolute favourite Grimlock moments. Actually, Furman wrote a sizeable proportion of like, every Transformers comic title released!

And it it generally held that Grimlock is Furman's signature characters (though Starscream's excellent protrail is also largely his handiwork). So, yes, the War Within Grimlock is exactly what the comic version is like (in every one Furman gets his hands on!) Which is awesome.

(The cancellation of the UK Transformers comic is still one of the saddest moments of my childhood, even twenty years after the fact. The recent resurgance never quite managed to get the same level of momentum of it's heyday.)

1Furman was writing both the US and supplementary UK stuff at the time, and the deadlines meant eventually, he had to give up on it trying to keep it consistent. But they even apologised in the comic at the time, explaining the reasons. Which I thought was very good of them!

KillianHawkeye

2011-07-11, 02:13 AM

What the heck was Megatron doin sulking in an alley? I guess tearing Autobots limb from limb doesn't light up his optics like it used to.

Anyway, the story was better than part 2. They toned down the toilet humor and cranked up the action, which was good. Also, very little Mom & Dad was a plus. Probably the best use of human characters in the series, although still not enough development for the robot characters.

I guess character development is just a problem with the limited length of a movie. After I caught myself feeling nostalgic about the original (animated) film, I realized that we actually got a bunch of generic throw-away characters in that one, too.

Let's see, there was Fast-Guy, Common-Sense-Guy, Optimus-Prime-Stand-In-Guy, Childlike-Rhyming-Guy, Pink-Female-Guy, and Old-Timer-War-Stories-Guy, then a bunch of established characters and Hot Rod, the only new guy who was well developed. Also that kid, Daniel, yet another human character who steals a bunch of screen time from the robots.

I guess that was still better than the new ones, though, which gave us Red-Car-With-Grappling-Hooks, Silver-Car-With-Swords, and Robot-Albert-Einstein, whose names I still don't know even though the silver one was a returning character from part 2. But at least Offensive-Comic-Relief-Duo didn't return with him, so we can't say that Michael Bay doesn't learn from his mistakes.

Parra

2011-07-11, 02:39 AM

But at least Offensive-Comic-Relief-Duo didn't return with him
At some point in the movie they say there are only 9 Autobots on Earth. As soon as I heard that number and counted them up on screen it made me smile that those 2 were not included in that and must therefore have died horribly at decepticon hands :smallbiggrin:

Humbug

2011-07-11, 05:03 AM

I agree with the people who said that the Autobots were uncharacteristically bloodthirsty in this movie, and in TF2 to a lesser extent. It's one thing to kill the enemy in war, but ripping apart that hapless Deception limb from limb is a pretty evil act for characters that are not turning to the dark side. There's something wrong with the movie when the Decepticons seem more merciful.

Heck, they even bothered to take the Autobots hostage (off camera no less) and only started killing them off when Carly's boss said they shouldn't live, and even then killed them execution style. Shoot to the head, quick and clean. Plot armor ignored, I'm surprised that Megatron didn't squish Carly there and then when she asked him to betray Sentinel. This is a good chance to show how evil Megatron is and... he spares her, sheesh. The Decepticons seem more sympathetic than the Autobots to me.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-11, 05:24 AM

H Birchgrove

2011-07-12, 05:13 AM

But on the upside, we got to see Bumblebee kill humans, that was awesome.

I missed that, where was it? :confused:

Devonix

2011-07-12, 07:00 AM

Yeah, old school Soundwave was pretty much without emotions (other than loyalty). Very logical. Sadism doesn't really fit him.

If you're talking about the little one from the second movie, that's Wheelie.

Heh, the Armada tv series actually played with that idea, Starscream's rebellious side there manifested less as a thirst for power and more of a disillusionment with the way things were. It was actually an interesting and relatively well-handled subplot. Then he died and came back in Energon as Unicron's plaything. Meh.

Actually OOOOld School Soundwave aka comics was even more treacherous than Starscream and it suprised me how on the nose his characterization was here. Soundwave and Lazerbeak seemed to be carbon copies of their versions from the comics in personality and actions. The main diff between Soundwave and Starscream was that Wavy was far better at hiding it and he directed his treachery against other Decepticons rather than at Megatron. Soundwave quite literally had blackmail info on everyone and used it to good effect the only reason he wasn't killed by others was because Megatron found him so useful that the others knew killing him would be a bad idea.

Devonix

2011-07-12, 07:01 AM

I missed that, where was it? :confused:

The part when Bumblebee was pioloting the decepticon jet and fired into the apartment where the human colaborators were.

Reverent-One

2011-07-12, 09:00 AM

Actually OOOOld School Soundwave aka comics was even more treacherous than Starscream and it suprised me how on the nose his characterization was here. Soundwave and Lazerbeak seemed to be carbon copies of their versions from the comics in personality and actions. The main diff between Soundwave and Starscream was that Wavy was far better at hiding it and he directed his treachery against other Decepticons rather than at Megatron. Soundwave quite literally had blackmail info on everyone and used it to good effect the only reason he wasn't killed by others was because Megatron found him so useful that the others knew killing him would be a bad idea.

See, that sounds more like the Shockwave I'm familar with than Soundwave. The fact that he was different than the normal decepticon is one of the things I like about him, simply making him another "Rar! I like hurting things and (if I'm smart enough to have my own ambitions) am power hungry!" decepticon is a loss in my book.

Asheram

2011-07-12, 10:11 AM

I am curious, just putting this little question out there.

Has Any of the Transformers movies been what you expected when compared to the many previous incarnations in different media.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-12, 11:42 AM

Reverent-One

2011-07-12, 12:40 PM

I am curious, just putting this little question out there.

Has Any of the Transformers movies been what you expected when compared to the many previous incarnations in different media.

Yes. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092106/) Unless you are specifically referring to the Michael Bay Transformers movies, in which case no. This is because I would expect a Transformers movie to be about the Transformers, not how Sam Witwicky deals with a robotic invasion of Earth(Guest staring the Transformers!).

EDIT: Also, I'd expect modern day, big budget movies to be better written than most, if not all, of an assortment of children's televisions shows/toy commericals dating back to the 80s. Though between these movies and The Last Airbender, this is perhaps an unreasonable expectation.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-12, 01:55 PM

Yes. (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092106/) Unless you are specifically referring to the Michael Bay Transformers movies, in which case no.

"1984: The Transformers launches in the US, in toy, comic and cartoon formats, forever ruining Transformers.
— TFWiki.net"

Reverent-One

2011-07-12, 02:06 PM

"1984: The Transformers launches in the US, in toy, comic and cartoon formats, forever ruining Transformers.
— TFWiki.net"

Because never mind the actual reasons I gave for disliking them, it must just be because I'm a perfectionistic fan. Also never mind that I've accepted pretty much every comic book series and animated transformers show (with the exception of Transformers: Cybertron, and possibly beast machines), despite the myriad differences between them that I could harp on if I felt so inclinded. I dislike the Bay-formers because they're horrible.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-12, 02:17 PM

Because never mind the actual reasons I gave for disliking them, it must just be because I'm a perfectionistic fan. Also never mind that I've accepted pretty much every comic book series and animated transformers show (with the exception of Transformers: Cybertron, and possibly beast machines), despite the myriad differences between them that I could harp on if I felt so inclinded. I dislike the Bay-formers because they're horrible.

You know, you are taking this way too seriously. My point was the opposite, that there seems to be exactly zero people in the universe agreeing on Transformers.

Reverent-One

2011-07-12, 02:23 PM

You know, you are taking this way too seriously. My point was the opposite, that there seems to be exactly zero people in the universe agreeing on Transformers.

You respond to a post of mine where I say I don't like something by quoting a bash on unpleaseable fanboys, how else am I supposed to take it other than you lumping me in with those same fanboys?

And there's zero people in the universe that agree about pretty much anything. Just look in the Avatar: The Last Airbender thread. It's full of discussions and disagreements over what is merely a 3 season long show (plus one movie). Now multiply that by...a lot...and you have the material for transformers fans to disagree about.

Avilan the Grey

2011-07-12, 03:13 PM

You respond to a post of mine where I say I don't like something by quoting a bash on unpleaseable fanboys, how else am I supposed to take it other than you lumping me in with those same fanboys?

Point taken; I should have clarified.

Devonix

2011-07-12, 04:16 PM

See, that sounds more like the Shockwave I'm familar with than Soundwave. The fact that he was different than the normal decepticon is one of the things I like about him, simply making him another "Rar! I like hurting things and (if I'm smart enough to have my own ambitions) am power hungry!" decepticon is a loss in my book.

You know perhaps I shouldn't have used the word trechery yeah its what he's doing but its more than who he is. He's dealing with lots of backstabbers its the reason he's got so much ammunition to use against them. But the way he directs those forces when he's got ahold of them is masterful You were talking about all the times he's leader, well Yes he used those means to get there but when he was there even the autobots respected him.

Hell in the future issues after one of the many alliances between the two forces. Ultra Magnus consults with Soundwave trying to create a more permenent alliance and he responds with this sad truism. He would love nothing more than the war to end and them to all go back to peace with one another but it wouldn't work. Both sides have done too many horrible things to each other for it to ever be anything more than a lessening of hostilities.

Soundwave is just what you remember, but don't forget he's learned the lessons that Shockwave and Scorpinok both learned You can't lead the Decepticons by just appealing to their better nature. Its there but you also need the added incentive of fear. Soundwave can't make them fear his might, he's just not that powerful. But he can make them fear his knowledge.

I thought the same way about Shockwave that you feel about Soundwave. He's not in this for the Evulz. I allways saw him as genuinely beliveing in the Decepticon cause. When things are going smoothly he'll just sit back and work his science experiments, but when he feels things have gotten off track he'll do everything in his power to set it right even if it means taking over and forcing people to do what they are supposed to.