What to learn with Spell-To-Power Erudite

[Yorae]

So I'm building a character that uses the spell-to-power Erudite.

The character is pretty gish-y, maxes out at 7th level powers, but has full manifester level and pretty solid PP.

The prospect of taking spells from ANY arcane list is awesomely daunting -- there are so many! Wizard, Bard, Wujen, Dread Necro... several I'm sure I'm forgetting.

So, what are good choices to try to learn?

The first thing that occurred to me was that I could grab the Cure X Wounds line from Bard and also Stoneskin, since there is that awesome clause in StP that says you can pay 2 extra PP and ignore material requirements, but I'm sure there's far, far more interesting things I could nab as well.

[Big Fau]

Why limit yourself? You can easily learn 50+ powers at the cost of one level, more if you multiclassed out of Erudite at the right time.

[Psyren]

You'll probably want this one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm)

typo

[Alleran]

What to learn?

...

Everything.

[Re'ozul]

Arcane Fusion and its Greater form are probably a good thing too. (Unless there was a change in consensus on what counts as unique power)

[Shadowknight12]

You'll probably want this one. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/mentalPinnacle.htm)

typo

Wait, that makes no sense. A power that... makes you a psion? That's... that's... it boggles the mind. :smallannoyed:

[Big Fau]

Wait, that makes no sense. A power that... makes you a psion? That's... that's... it boggles the mind. :smallannoyed:

Yeah, infinite PP loop right there.

[Psyren]

Wait, that makes no sense. A power that... makes you a psion? That's... that's... it boggles the mind. :smallannoyed:

It's a spell that makes you a psion. :smallwink:

The "drawback" keeps you from casting spells... which Erudites never do anyway. Oh, and you can even ignore the pricey material component. Yay!

[Shadowknight12]

It's a spell that makes you a psion. :smallwink:

The "drawback" keeps you from casting spells... which Erudites never do anyway. Oh, and you can even ignore the pricey material component. Yay!

Nope, in the hands of a StP Erudite, it's a power. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Nope, in the hands of a StP Erudite, it's a power. :smalltongue:

Exactly! :smallwink:

[Shadowknight12]

Exactly! :smallwink:

Yeah, no, I got that from the start. I'm just boggled at how there wasn't an errata or exception anywhere. I mean... really. Really. You don't even have to TRY to break the game. No obscure combinations, no ambiguous interpretation, no RAW or RAI, just pick an SRD spell and you're all set.

[Yorae]

Well... that's... exploitatively amazing. Awesome.

Any others? I'd like to not focus on blasting stuff if possible. Also, how does Arcane Fusion work with StP, since it explicitly refers to sorcerer spells?

If it does work, I'm sure Arcane Fusion + Linked Power is shenanigans.

[Psyren]

- Summoning/Calling spells: Psionics is bad at those.
- Orbs so you're not stuck with crystals when faced with an AMF/NPF.
- Illusions (psionics has none), especially invisibility and the shadow line.
- Ability/Level Drain effects (psionic ones are weak)
- Miscellaneous effects magic gets that psionics doesn't (e.g Glitterdust, Alter Self, Phantom Steed, Symbol of X.)
- Anything really good with a costly material component that you can ignore (e.g. Forcecage, Hail of Stone, Simulacrum... okay, good luck getting that last one approved)
- Spells whose psionic versions suck (e.g. Identify, Moment of Prescience, Freedom of Movement)

That should be enough to get you going.

[WinWin]

Body out of Body. Wu Jen 7, Complete Arcane. Your duplicates have all of your abilities but may not cast spells or use spell completion items...No reference to Psionics.

Metaconcert breaks this spell...Or each duplicate can simply manifest unique powers beyond your individual limit with relative impunity. You need more unique powers? Just make more Body out of Body Clones.

[Yorae]

This guy maxes out at 7th level powers and the spells must be one level below your highest level powers, so unfortunately Body out of Body, Forcecage, etc. are off-limits. =(

Would magic-psionics transparency account for things like Body out of Body and Arcane Fusion, or would they just not work correctly? (i.e., Body out of Body is totally broken and Arcane Fusion doesn't work at all)

[Draz74]

Heroics and Wraithstrike are fantastic for a Gish. Improvisation, normally Bard-only, is fantastic for anyone with a good caster level. All from SpC.

[Big Fau]

Well... that's... exploitatively amazing. Awesome.

Any others? I'd like to not focus on blasting stuff if possible. Also, how does Arcane Fusion work with StP, since it explicitly refers to sorcerer spells?

If it does work, I'm sure Arcane Fusion + Linked Power is shenanigans.

It works just fine thanks to Psionic Transparency extending to spells (note that Mental Pinnacle explicitly allows you to manifest powers, so it can't shut off your manifesting). Arcane Fusion is capable of bypassing your UPD limit too.


Also, what interpretation is your DM using for the UPD? There's 3 possible choices here, and which one you are using is vital to your character.

[Urpriest]

It works just fine thanks to Psionic Transparency extending to spells (note that Mental Pinnacle explicitly allows you to manifest powers, so it can't shut off your manifesting). Arcane Fusion is capable of bypassing your UPD limit too.


Also, what interpretation is your DM using for the UPD? There's 3 possible choices here, and which one you are using is vital to your character.

Wait 3? I thought there were only two. What are they?

[Big Fau]

Wait 3? I thought there were only two. What are they?


11 UP/day. This seems to be the most reasonable until you realize that this prevents the Erudite from being even remotely useful without Arcane Fusion and other tricks.
11 UPD/Power Level. This was the original intent when the Erudite was first printed in Dragon Magazine, as 3.0 Psionics had a large number of powers in just the basic book.
11 UPD/class level. Absolutely impossible to use without Spell-to-Power, as you need 220 different powers at 20th level.

[Yorae]

It works just fine thanks to Psionic Transparency extending to spells (note that Mental Pinnacle explicitly allows you to manifest powers, so it can't shut off your manifesting). Arcane Fusion is capable of bypassing your UPD limit too.


Also, what interpretation is your DM using for the UPD? There's 3 possible choices here, and which one you are using is vital to your character.

Total unique powers per day (not unique powers per day per level), advanced normally by PrCs that advance manifesting. I totally didn't think of using Arcane Fusion bypassing UPD -- that's pretty clever. It would still only work on powers that you converted from sorcerer spells though, right?

Edit: Wait, RAI was per power level? Can you say where you found that? That seemed like such a large number of powers that it couldn't be intended.

[Big Fau]

Total unique powers per day (not unique powers per day per level), advanced normally by PrCs that advance manifesting. I totally didn't think of using Arcane Fusion bypassing UPD -- that's pretty clever. It would still only work on powers that you converted from sorcerer spells though, right?

Edit: Wait, RAI was per power level? Can you say where you found that? That seemed like such a large number of powers that it couldn't be intended.


Unique Powers per Day: An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.


The RAW points to interpretation #2, but people usually read it as #1 until someone points this out. #3 requires a little misreading, but nothing too much.

[Yorae]

The RAW points to interpretation #2, but people usually read it as #1 until someone points this out. #3 requires a little misreading, but nothing too much.

Aww, snap.

I had indeed read it as #1. That is much, MUCH less limiting. I doubt I'd even have enough powerpoints to use up all my UPD....

Edit:

But what about the following sentence?


thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day

That seems to indicate #1.

Edit 2: Oh, because a 1st level Erudite can only manifest 1st level powers.... so they'd have only one unique power. Riiiiight.
Edit 3: Umm... timewarp swordsage'd? =p Realized the answer to that after I posted it.

[Big Fau]

Aww, snap.

I had indeed read it as #1. That is much, MUCH less limiting. I doubt I'd even have enough powerpoints to use up all my UPD....

Edit:

But what about the following sentence?



That seems to indicate #1.

One power because his level only allows 1. And he only has 1st level powers anyway (if he had 2nd level powers he could manifest one of each).

[Yorae]

Just found an excellent 2nd level one, imo: Create Magic Tattoo.

The Erudite can circumvent the 100 gp material cost (the focus is free).
Extra caster level? Spell resist? Saving throw bonuses? And they last 24 hours?! Yes, please.

[Big Fau]

Just found an excellent 2nd level one, imo: Create Magic Tattoo.

The Erudite can circumvent the 100 gp material cost (the focus is free).
Extra caster level? Spell resist? Saving throw bonuses? And they last 24 hours?! Yes, please.

Yeah, look for things that alter the way you cast spells, since they affect your manifesting equally. Stuff like Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) would give you huge mileage later on in the campaign.

[Re'ozul]

I tend to have a problem with that interpretation.
Why would anyone then ever play a psion over an erudite (outside of maybe some theoretical optimization issues)?

[Big Fau]

I tend to have a problem with that interpretation.
Why would anyone then ever play a psion over an erudite (outside of maybe some theoretical optimization issues)?

Because most DMs do not allow Erudites. Especially not Spell-to-Power.


The class is unbalanced. With the exception of Discipline Powers, the Psion is vastly inferior to the Erudite. And even Discipline Powers become rather weak when you add in Mantled Erudite (which is supposed to be about as powerful as StP).


Edit: Keep in mind that the class was not designed by Bruce. It originally appeared in Dragon material and was reprinted (even though it was slated for the 3.0 Psionics Handbook, it was cut for various reasons).

[Psyren]

11 UP/day. This seems to be the most reasonable until you realize that this prevents the Erudite from being even remotely useful without Arcane Fusion and other tricks.

Not true, they are still very useful even with this interpretation. After all, that's how many "UPD" Wilders have, and they are still playable.

Basically, it means that you'll be crafting stones/dorjes more (easily done with your bonus feats - few to none of which you need to spend on Expanded Knowledge - and XP is a river) or having psionic members of your party pull the utility stuff out of your head as-needed (do you really need to save a UPD slot for Divination, Knock or Identify?) while keeping the more multipurpose stuff like Time Hop, Astral Construct and Metamorphosis "in queue."

And if all else fails, manifest Metaconcert with someone and have the entity (which knows every power you know) pull out any powers you need.


You're also incorrect about the Psion's relative power level. While they are weaker than a CStP Erudite (and possibly a FD Erudite), compared to the Base Erudite or a Mantled Erudite they can hold their own, particularly once you start giving the Psion its own ACFs. At low-mid levels in particular, the Psion will come out ahead of the base Erudite.