Rogue/Swashbuckler/ToB Build help

[Dusto]

Looking at an interesting build idea loosely based on a character in another game of ours. The idea is to have good skills, along with some damage ability while moving around. Would love some feedback on ideas, especially if I am missing any key skills.

30pt Build, no flaws, published books only.
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8. Both stat raises will go into Dex bringing it to 18.

Human - Craven
1st Level - Blind fighting
Rogue 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6, Trap finding
Rogue 2 - Evasion
3rd Level - Exotic weapon proficiency spiked chain
Rogue 3 - Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating strike
Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finese
Swashbuckler 2 - Grace +1
Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike
6th Level - Mage slayer
Warblade 1 - Battle Clarity, Weapon aptitude
Swordsage 1 - Quick to act +1, discipline focus spiked chain
Swordsage 2 - Ac bonus
9th Level - Pierce magical concealment

With assassin stance I'll have +4d6 and the maneuvers to give myself the ability to flank when I can't normally. Warblade will give me some extra flexibility with additional manuevers(wall of blades, etc..) I plan on picking up a level of Crusader next and then not sure what after that. Thanks in advance playground!

[Dusto]

50+ views and zero responses. Guess I didn't overlook anything :)

[Keld Denar]

I'd suggest you take another rogue level and nab Daring Outlaw. That'll keep your BAB up (unless you are using fractional BAB), and give you 2 more dice of SA damage (since your Rogue + Swash = 7, which is 4 dice). Possibly swap it out for that Warblade level.

[begooler]

While Warblade is a good class, I'm not sure how you're benefiting from it more than you would from advancing your SA progression (from getting Daring Outlaw and then more Swashbuckler levels) or advancing your Swordsage initiator level.

I would drop the Warblade, add Daring Outlaw, then alternate progressing as Swordsage and Swashbuckler.

[Dusto]

I was looking at Daring Outlaw, but not sure where I could fit it in. I guess I could put off Pierce Magical Concealment til my next feat later.

[Yanagi]

It looks like you're building character that maximizes sneak opportunity.

How to get more sneak and better sneak.

The straightforward route is more Rogue and Swashbuckler levels: eleven more of them and you're level 20 with +9d6 sneak before Assassin's Stance...if you spend a feat for Daring Outlaw. If you're going that route you have a limited window of manuevers (three from levels 1 and 2 for Warblade, seven from 1 through 3 in Swordsage), and should pick ones that facilitate your sneak attacks: It's only a dip into maneuvers, but their only purpose is to open up your primary skill's utility.

Distracting Ember (DW1) creates a flank for one attack, while Sapphire Nightmare Blade (DM1), Cloak of Deception (SH2), Shadow Garrote (SH3) and Hand of Death (SH4) create flat-footedness. Mountain Hammer (SD2) might be of use to cut through DR. Island of Blades (SH1) facilitates flanking, while Assassin's Stance (SH3) boosts damage (obviously).

Since you're fighting at 5' removed from most targets, stances that boost to-hit or damage in exchange for AC penalty might not be a bad idea, ie Punishing Stance (IH1). Strikes that allow rapid positioning--Shadow Jaunt (SH2) and Bounding Assault (DM4) are worth considering given your exploitation of flanking. Your weakest save is mental, so maybe Moment of Perfect Mind (DM1).

Looking towards feats for a heavy-sneak character, you may want to consider:


Shadow Blade (ToB) adds DEX to damage with a preferred weapon of the Shadow Hand discipline...this includes the spiked chain.
Gloom Razor (ToB) provides three tactical options that open up sneak attacks; it has Shadow Blade as a prereq, though, so plan ahead.
The feat-string Combat Reflexes (PHB1) / Vexing Flanker (PHB2)/ Adaptable Flanker (PHB2): you've got reach weapon and high Dexterity, so CR might be profitable. Vexing increases the flanking bonus to +4 but is redundant with a Swashbuckler CF, while Adaptable is a fancier version of Island of Blades. Your attack bonus is pretty good, though, and you're got ways of cutting the enemies' AC, so maybe these aren't that great.
Telling Blow (PHB2) may or may not be worth it: it adds sneak damage to a critical, but you're using a weapon with a low range.
Pierce Magical Protection (ComArc), the other feat that chains from Mage Slayer, is pretty sweet if you think you're going to be swatting at people with magical protection and disrupting spells.


The skill tricks Clarity of Vision and Spot the Weak Point (both require Spot 12), and Acrobatic Backstab (Tumble 12) might be of interest. They respective permit momentary spotting of invisible creatures, resolving an attack as a touch, and catching an opponent flat-footed while passing through their square.

The downside of your current 9-level build is that it's hovering close to multi-class XP penalties... I'd recommend that 10th level be Warblade 2, for the manuever and uncanny dodge. With your build, uncanny dodge is your friend. If your DM doesn't do the XP penalty, then go wild with the permutations.


You'd then have ten levels to play with: to maximize sneak, nine of those levels should be Rogue or Swashbuckler...again probably one, not both, should be advanced to avoid an XP penalty...but either combined with Daring Outlaw (meaning effective Rogue level 15, effective Swashbuckler level 15) nets you +8d6 sneak, +3 Dodge, and +2 Grace.
Swashbuckler 12 grants full BAB and the class abilities Acrobatic Charge, Improved Flanking, and Lucky;
Rogue 12 grants 3/4 BAB and only one special ability, since you opted out of Trap Sense and Warblade 2 plus Rogue 4 grants you Improved Uncanny Dodge. Maybe you want more skills, though.
The single level of wiggle room can be used to gain a level of Warblade or Swordsage...I'd go Warblade 3 to pick up Battle Ardor and an extra manuever (Iron Heart Surge, if I could wrangle it).
To max sneak and get a few goodies, I'd go Ss 2/ Wb 3/ Ro 4/ Sw 11, spending my three remaining feats on Daring Outlaw, Shadow Blade, and either Combat Reflexes or Gloom Razor, depending on how I felt about my battle role in the group. (and honestly, I probably wouldn't have done Blind-Fight/Pierce Magicial Concealment, done Daring Outlaw and CR earlier, and leave the last feats flexible).


You then have the fallback of exchanging sneak attack dice for other options:


Sneak attack dice cost two levels, so every die you forfeit means two levels to play with.
Do a two-level Fighter dip before the second Warblade level if you need feats;
Ss 4 means Insightful Strike (WIS) added to damage from one discipline; Give your DM tachycardia and do a 2-level dip in Psychic Warrior, then pick up the Psionic Weapon/Greater Psionic Weapon feat chain plus Expansion and Force Screen.
I'd be tempted to defer 2d6 sneak (compensated for by Assassin Stance) and do Ro 3/ Sw 8 with either Ss 5/Wb 3 or Ss 3/ Wb 5. The former is probably better as more is gained, unless one really want a Warblade-exclusive discipline and a feat. You keep the Improved Feint CF (Sw 8) but lose Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ro 2 + Wb 2)...but since you're a reach fighter, hopefully you're using positioning to avoid flanks.

[Dusto]

First off, thanks for the tons of information! I did miss combat reflexes, that basically is a must having a reach weapon and high dexterity. The skill tricks I definitely looked at, but can't get til next level as I would just hit the prereq 12's in the needed skills at level 9.

I really like the pierce magical concealment, but perhaps those feats may be better used to keep my focus. I like your idea of getting a level or two of fighter in there to get some extra feats, this character seems very feat intensive. I'll play around with some different ideas of the build and see what I can come up with.

[Yanagi]

I really like the pierce magical concealment, but perhaps those feats may be better used to keep my focus. I like your idea of getting a level or two of fighter in there to get some extra feats, this character seems very feat intensive. I'll play around with some different ideas of the build and see what I can come up with.

If you like PMC, take it. I prefer PMP because it also dispels magical protections when you hit.

Well, your focus doesn't have to be perfect. While I like doing abstract builds, I find when they're introduced into a game and team of PCs they need to be re-tuned. Since you're building a sneak character, you've got one obvious need for cooperation: flanking. If it happens that you're in a group with no other melee combatants, suddenly there's need to change up options.

As is, you'll be a squishy skirmisher through level 3, a bit tougher through level 6, then come into your own as your maneuvers let you sneak with greater efficacy. You might try and fit Daring Outlaw in ASAP (say, level 6) rather than post-9th level, 'cause hey, sneak is your whole deal, and it means +1 AC, +1 Reflexes, and +1d6 sneak early on.



Armor to consider:

Mobility Enchantment (+1) - grants Mobility feat
Quickness Enchantment (+5k gp) - +5ft movement

Weapons to consider:

Blurstrike Enchantment (+2) - 10x per day activate to make attack against flat-footed opponent...only works on creatures with vision.
Deadly Precision Enchantment (+1) - +1d6 sneak

Crystals of Demolition and Truedeath - in particular the Greater versions (7,000gp), which allow criticals and sneak attack on golems and undead, respectively.

Wonderous Items to consider:

Acrobat Boots (900gp) - 3/day uses to boost speed for a round.
Anklet of Translocation (1600gp) - 2/day errorless teleport within 10'.
Armband of Elusive Action (800gp) - 1/day avoid all AoO for a round.
Belt of Growth (3000gp) - 1/day grow 1 size category.
Bracers of Opportunity (2300gp) - +2 competence on AoO if you have CR; activate 2/day for one extra AoO
Rogue's Vest (18000gp) - +2 Hide, MS, Reflexes; +1d6 sneak.
Strongarm Bracers (6000gp) - use weapon one category one size larger w/o penalty
plus, of course, anything that boosts DEX/WIS/INT (in that order of priority), grants Natural/Deflection/Luck/Sacred bonuses to AC, etc.

[Dusto]

Moved things around a little and swapped out some levels. I still can't fit in Shadow Blade, which I'd like to, but maybe that will have to wait.

Human - Craven
Feat 1 - Combat Reflexes
Rogue 1 -
Rogue 2 -
Rogue 3 -
Feat 3 - Mage Slayer
Rogue 4 -
Swashbuckler 1 -
Swashbuckler 2 -
Feat 6 - Daring Outlaw
Swashbuckler 3 -
Fighter 1 - Blind Fighting
Swordsage 1 -
Feat 9 - Pierce Magical Concealment

Other ideas if I drop Pierce Magical Concealment and Blindfighting(still think I'd want to keep Mage Slayer), is I could pick up other useful feats like Dash, Shadowblade, Extra readied maneuver, etc.. Also I could swap out the Fighter level for a level of Barbarian and gain 10' movement, which is good for a flanker.

[Yanagi]

Two Suggestions:

When you hit your initiator classes, plot out your maneuver and stance selections level by level to see what's available and useful.

Two, consult the Wealth-by-level charts to see what gear you feasibly could afford.

I suggest this because you may be able to pick up items that could perform the same function as a feat (Dash and Blind-Fight in particular) and increase your speed...which is tactically "cheaper" than spending a feat or level. Also, depending on how you stock your maneuvers, there are some Shadow Hand and Diamond Mind abilities that facilitate moves...and again, are cheaper than a feat.

[ffone]

If/when/once you have a decent amount of WBL, one nice alternative to Blind-Fight and Pierce Mag. Conc. is a Blindfold of True Darkness. 9K, Blindsight 30', but you're blind (at least it provides immunity to gaze attacks!) Amazing item - but ask your DM what the rules for time to put it on/off will be. What we do is, it's a move action to slip it on or slip it off (you can wear it as a headband which is magically inactive).

Blindsight negates concealment, and concealment utterly foils sneak attack. IIRC Pierce MC won't help vs nonmagical concealment or hiding. Blindsight will deal with everything except Darkstalker-feat foes I believe, provided you know you need to slip it on! (Considering wearing it much of the time, and using your allies to inform you about what they see with regular sight. Teamwork!)

Also if you have good Use Magic Device, ask about buying scrolls of Permanency and See Invis. That won't help vs Blur or Mirror Image, but one specifically nice thing about perm See Invis is that, with things like the blindfold or casting See Invis is that you *may not know when you need them* (ambush by invis foes). With Blur / Mirror Image, at least you can see that such a foe is there, and know you need to slip on the blindfold.

OTOH, if your group rules that Piece Mag. Conc. lets you ignore the 20% miss chance on attacks when you are blinking, then it's golden. The ring of blinking is one of the best rogue items (sneak attack almost all the time - well, 80% of the time - because most targets are denied Dex to AC vs a blinker).

[Dusto]

Unfortunately our DM does not use WBL, so gear can be extremely hit or miss.

Also, I am a bit confused on multi-class penalties it seems. Someone mentioned that I would be getting penalties. I ignorantly thought humans had no restrictions, but discovered that was through a house rule of another DM. Could anyone give an easier to understand explanation of this? Another player in my group said if I went rogue 4, I can keep adding classes without penalty as long as they are between 1 and 3, since each new class would need to be within 2 levels of any others that were at 3. Is this correct?

[Yanagi]

Your compatriot is correct: a human has no designated "preferred class"--instead, the highest-levelled class they have doesn't count toward XP penalties. A disproportion among the non-preferred classes invokes an XP penalty when one (non-preferred) class is more than two levels higher than the others.

Back in my first post I suggest you might get into XP trouble if you tried to advance both Rogue and Swashbuckler to 4 while you still had Warblade 1; advancing one class wouldn't invoke a penalty, as it would be your de facto "preferred class" but advancing both would.

[Dusto]

That doesn't sound so bad then. If I understand you correctly, I can have (whatever class as a human) at (whatever level) and then I can pretty much do unlimited non-PrC classes as long as I keep them between level 1-3. It may not make for a super focused build, but can for a fun build with lots of dips in a low-mid power group.

[Dusto]

Crappy, I read up again and that's wrong. They CAN'T be more than one level different without penalties.

[Dusto]

Ok, giving this another whirl now that I checked in on the multi-class penalties that I'd like to avoid. I'm not going to be able to take penetrating strike, but hopefully I either won't fight a lot of undead right away, or can eventually get my hands on those crystals.

Human 1 - Craven
Feat 1 - Combat Reflexes
Rogue 1 - Sneak Attack +1d6, Trapfinding
Rogue 2 - Evasion
Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finese
Feat 3 - Mage Slayer
Swashbuckler 2 - Grace +1
Swashbuckler 3 - Insightful Strike
Swashbuckler 4 - --
Feat 6 -Daring Outlaw
Swashbuckler 5 - Dodge Bonus +1
Fighter 1 - Blind Fighting
Swordsage 1 - Quick to Act +1, Discipline focus Spiked Chain
Feat 9 - Pierce Magical Concealment

Next level I would pick up Swordsage 2 and kinda pick and choose from there.