SRD only Int based Bard

[Totally Guy]

How would a...

Human Paragon 1/Wizard 2/Human Paragon 2/Prestige Bard X

... compare to a regular SRD only human Bard? I'd be able to pump Int and dump Cha.

I'm thinking it'd be good as he'd have lots of skills and a wider variety of spells. I'd be able to mix it up in melee too as a gish type.

From that base, what pointers could you give me?

[Ernir]

Compared to the SRD Bard? You get higher level spells, a lower caster level, and a spell/class feature progression that might cause you headaches at some levels. Probably a good deal in the end.

Compared to a straight SRD Wizard, you're losing horribly.


Notable problems?
I'm not sure how much more suited you are to gishing it up than any other SRD Wizard.
Your Bardic Music and bardyskills are coming in late. For the early part of your career, you're just a Wizard with a lost CL. =/

[Draz74]

For the early part of your career, you're just a Wizard with a lost CL. =/

Except with decent skills. Which can be better than more spells, at early levels, depending on the playstyle of the campaign.

[begooler]

SRD bard gets to use wands of cure spells.

[Urpriest]

SRD bard gets to use wands of cure spells.

So does that one. Prestige Bard gives access to Bard spells, just like Prestige Paladin gives access to Paladin spells.

[FMArthur]

So does that one. Prestige Bard gives access to Bard spells, just like Prestige Paladin gives access to Paladin spells.

That's not entirely true. The sidebar which mentions giving Bard/Paladin/Ranger spells specifies that they must be spells that are unique to those lists. Cure spells are not exclusive to Bards so Prestige Bard does not give you them.

[begooler]

Cure spells are not exclusive to Bards so Prestige Bard does not give you them.

This is the point I was making. On the other hand, perhaps you could say that cure spells as arcane spells are unique to the bard spell list, and therefore part of this category. I wouldn't, but that would be up to the DM.

[candycorn]

That's not entirely true. The sidebar which mentions giving Bard/Paladin/Ranger spells specifies that they must be spells that are unique to those lists. Cure spells are not exclusive to Bards so Prestige Bard does not give you them.

I believe the intent was "unique to the lists being used".

For example, you add a bard spell if it's not on the class list that prestige bard is pumping. If it is on the class list, you don't get the bard one. Notable, as some bard spells are at a lower spell level than the same spell on a sorceror/wizard list.

I don't believe it's to mean "unique to that specific class, and able to be cast by no other". If that were the case, archivist would get every bard spell removed.

[Totally Guy]

Ouch. I thought that unique was with respect to the spell list of the class used to enter the prestige class.

I certainly don't have the fortitute to read all the other classes spell lists in the game just to cross out the ones that aren't unique to the bard. Plus I don't have ready access to the 3.5 supplements.

It's worse than encumberance.

Edit: Ninja'd by Candycorn

[Coidzor]

Or, y'know, spells on the bard list that weren't on the list that the person had in the first place. :smalltongue: Because, as mentioned, it's just too much work to play it that other way.

Rules as laziness dictates.

[FMArthur]

I believe the intent was "unique to the lists being used".

For example, you add a bard spell if it's not on the class list that prestige bard is pumping. If it is on the class list, you don't get the bard one. Notable, as some bard spells are at a lower spell level than the same spell on a sorceror/wizard list.

I don't believe it's to mean "unique to that specific class, and able to be cast by no other". If that were the case, archivist would get every bard spell removed.

Really? I believe the intent was to just barely cover the things that go missing when you take key classes out of the game, to make sure that they are at least possible within the rules.

Also, archivists don't have their own list so there's no worries about that interfering, although prestige classes with proprietary lists are far more daunting to sort through. Remember that there weren't a lot of classes at the time UA was published, and probably much fewer than that at the time of this section's writing...

This is why my games include regular bards. :smallsigh:

[Coidzor]

Really? I believe the intent was to just barely cover the things that go missing when you take key classes out of the game, to make sure that they are at least possible within the rules.

Also, archivists don't have their own list so there's no worries about that interfering, although prestige classes with proprietary lists are far more daunting to sort through. Remember that there weren't a lot of classes at the time UA was published, and probably much fewer than that at the time of this section's writing...

This is why my games include regular bards. :smallsigh:

So you believe the intent of the Prestige Bard was to create a headache that would render it unusable so that's why you don't use it rather than going by an equally valid interpretation of one or two lines that eliminates the headache?

[FMArthur]

So you believe the intent of the Prestige Bard was to create a headache that would render it unusable so that's why you don't use it rather than going by an equally valid interpretation of one or two lines that eliminates the headache?

What? :smallconfused:
That's not what I said. You've totally misrepresented my thoughts just to try to argue here.

[begooler]

I don't believe it's to mean "unique to that specific class, and able to be cast by no other". If that were the case, archivist would get every bard spell removed.

Well, for the purpose of being nitpicky and making this exercise more of a headache, I'll point out that that's not the case. First, for the reason already mentioned, but second, because in a world where there are prestige bards, there are no other bards. This means that the divine bard variant doesn't exist, and that the spells unique to the bard list don't exist as divine spells. (Correct me if there's other cheese that makes bard spells available to archivists.)

And back to our confusing little sidebar. Really, it's not that much of a headache, it's just a decision. You are forced to interpret what they mean, since it's written so ambiguously. This means we get to imagine what they were intending.

Option 1: They meant that any spells that are on the bard list which are not already on your list are your spells now. This means you can be a class with a unique list like WuJen and then get lots of the wizard spells that were removed from the list for the purpose of making it more unique. Yey for you. As there were less classes when UA came out (I can't remember if there would have been WuJen) they probably weren't considering possibilities like this. And really, its not going to break anything if WuJen can cast a few extra spells.

Option 2: They meant only spells that are REALLY* unique to the bard list. As in, when you go and look on the spell description, if it says "Bard 1" you get it, but not if it says "Bard 1, Cleric 1."
If Option 2 is what they intended, I am still certain that they did not mean "Hey, go read every prestige class list that grants its own spells and make sure that those bard spells aren't on there." That doesn't make any sense as half the point of prestige bard/paladin/ranger is to simplify the game by removing some base classes. It also doesn't make sense, because what that would mean is that as more books come out with prestige classes that have bard spells on their lists, the prestige bard gets LESS spells. Usually, when they print a new book we assume that the intention is to give players more options, not less, and so operating under the assumption that you have to remove the spell if it appears on another prc list is a bit like playing a Truenamer.
*If you go with Option 2 you have to also accept a special definition of unique which is really unique to a certain extent, or unique enough. This is all fine by me... since we're playing a fantasy game I don't mind suspending my disbelief. If that upsets the logic circuits in your brain, just go with Option 1.