The build on the left or the build on the right

[the clumsy bard]

Hey everyone I just need a choice of build number 1 or build number 2

Keeping in mind I am leaving the feat choices out (feel free to suggest any if you want, but the builds are really what I would like to hear about.

They are both ECL of 21

Build # 1

Ranger (UA variant wildshape) 11 / Master of many forms 10

Build # 2

Druid 5 / Master of many forms 7 / Planar Sheperd 9

I would like criticism and comments on either build based purely on the actual class choices.

As I previously said the feats aren't selected yet, so if you want to suggest anything go nuts, but I am looking for comments based on the class selections more then anything.

Thanks in advance.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Your build #1 is extremely suboptimal, it should be WSRanger 6/ MoMF 10/ Warshaper 5. Those first four Warshaper levels should be before the ninth MoMF level so you have the BAB to get Defensive Sweep at level 18. Get Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, Multiattack, and Defensive Sweep. Get Improved Combat Reflexes and a high enough +Dex item to have Dex 21 in your most commonly used forms (War Troll and Cryohydra). Even then, I'd still go with a build that gets 9th level spells instead.

Your build #2 is also suboptimal, since nothing is worth missing out on 9th level spells by 20th level, not even MoMF 7. In the epic levels if you don't have 9th level spells your character will be dead weight most of the time.

[NNescio]

Your build #2 is also suboptimal, since nothing is worth missing out on 9th level spells by 20th level, not even MoMF 7. In the epic levels if you don't have 9th level spells your character will be dead weight most of the time.

Well... he's still a Planar Shepard...

[erikun]

Build # 1

Ranger (UA variant wildshape) 11 / Master of many forms 10
Not bad, although of course nothing amazing. Going into epic without 9th level spellcasting is going to hurt quite a bit, but if your party is mostly high-tier melee or suboptimal spellcasters, you'll likely to very well. Biffoniacus seems to know how to optimize this one better than I do.


Build # 2

Druid 5 / Master of many forms 7 / Planar Sheperd 9
The most obvious question is "Why not Druid 11/Planar Shepard 10"? You are taking a massive hit to your capabilities by losing 7 levels of spellcasting, and I'm not sure that MoMF gives you much that Planar Shepard doesn't already. Even without Dal Quor abuse, the Planar Shepard can wild shape into any outsider for your plane - pick one that has Wish as a Spell-Like Ability, and then cast Polymorph on yourself. You'll be able to turn into anything you want for the spell's duration, and can just Wild Shape into another Wish-SLA outsider if you want to do it again.

I suppose there's nothing wrong with it if you have a specific theme in mind that requires MoMF 7, but it would probably be best to mention that before asking advice for the build - we can't help with making the build more thematic if we don't know what the theme is!

[the clumsy bard]

Sorry.

Little background:

Current campaign I am in is in epic levels. I took leadership and epic leadership a while back, but have yet to gain anything from it in game.

Several ideas in game have come up, but because of storyline derailments or unexpected issues my cohort and followers are yet to be found and or decided upon. The DM wants the followers and cohort to make sense in game, so I have gone through many possible incarnations in game (aka building up possible cohorts only to find out that they were essentially not going to happen in game)

Missed cohorts include the following:

- elven hellfire glaivelock
- dark elf artificer (lesser drow version)
- Dwarven Ur-Priest / knight raven (dm translated the knight of the raven evil)
- Elven wizard swiftblade abjurant champion etc

In any case in the storyline my character is now in the process of trying to recruit and unite a bunch of troll clans into an army etc...

The issue is a troll starts at ecl 11 before any class levels other then giant HDs and are way more suboptimal than either of the builds I posted.

The general idea is that I would prefer someone who is a *troll* basically wildshaping into a troll or one of the variants (cave troll, war troll etc...)

Basically the cohort will be a clan chief who is actually x race (no level adjustment) who is assuming the shape of a troll to rule his respective clan. Storywise I am really pushing this to DM, so hopefully it works.

My cohorts ECL is 21

Assuming only needing to be giant or monstrous humanoid to become a troll, troll variant or war troll. I think I can get away with only 3 levels in MMF, unless of course I am missing a huge fat that allows this somewhere.

Assuming this I could probably get druid 8/Planar sheperd 10/MMF3

I am curious what you guys think though.

[Gnaeus]

Assuming this I could probably get druid 8/Planar sheperd 10/MMF3

I am curious what you guys think though.

Much, much better.

Although Cleric 1/Druid 10/PS 10 with DMM Persist (Shapechange) would be even better.

[the clumsy bard]

hmmm would be awesome.

Sadly I wouldn't suggest cleric in any build as in our campaign most gods are affected by a plague that causes their clerics to get sick as well.

Thus DMM is kinda pointless although... isn't there alternative ways to get turning?

[erikun]

I'd say it depends on the strength of your current group. Ranger/MoMF is a pretty solid T3, while Druid/Planar Shepard is a clear T1. (Assuming you're familiar with the terms.)

Or, if you prefer: The Ranger will be a lot simplier to run and has clear versatility, but isn't overly powerful. The Druid will have a lot of strong spells and abilities, but it gives you another full spellcaster to manage.

[the clumsy bard]

Well the problem with my group is that I have to actively try not to over optimize as I have garnered a certain reputation.

I plan on sending 2 builds to the dm and seeing what he says as it his call in the end.

My current character is only a tier 3 character. Warblade/ eternal blade etc and I seem to outshine other characters in the group even though there is a wizard and a cleric/ radiant servant of pelor who abuses DMM: Persist.

I am familiar with the tier system though no worries.