Identify and Intelligent Items

[Allanimal]

In the campaign I DM, the party may soon come into possession of an intelligent item whose goals will eventually be in conflict with the party.

Let's just call this intelligent item "Bob", since intelligent item takes too long to type...

Anyway, Bob was planning on staying silent and not revealing its true nature until this point of conflict arises. Bob, in addition to its normal item properties, has lesser and greater powers as noted in the DMG, in Bob's case: it can cast cure moderate wounds on its wielder three times per day, detect magic at will, and communicate telepathically, though it chooses not to until the party goes against its wishes.

So Bob's plan is to lay low until it needs to make its personality known. But what happens when the players inevitably cast identify on it? Should identify spill the beans on the item's intelligence and its special powers? What about its alignment, stats, etc.? The DMG entry on intelligent items is unclear. The SRD about identify, to me at least, is also unclear:


The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any).

Identify does not function when used on an artifact.

Are Bob's stats and special powers considered "magic properties"? Is Bob an artifact, since it is an unique item?

As DM, I want to tell the caster of the identify spell that Bob is a +x Weapon, and leave it at that. I also am thinking that I will only enforce the bestowing of a negative level on the PC of an "incorrect" alignment wields it when Bob reveals his true nature.

But would this be unfair? Should I let a 1st level spell derail a major aspect of the plot? (FYI, it is a 10th level party?)

What about sense motive vs. Bob's bluff???

[kharmakazy]

I say keep it hidden, and if anyone grumbles tell them its an artifact power. That shuts up most rules lawyers even.

Sense motive? Only when bob starts communicating. Not sure why he would bluff, but I guess that could depend on his personality. I'd do a regular sense motive honestly. Give it an average bluff for the party's level or higher if you deem necessary.

Edit:

Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs. Intelligent items often have the ability to illuminate their surroundings at will (as magic weapons do); many cannot see otherwise.

Identify only works on objects, not creatures. So it seems by RAW the spell just fails.

Further edit:


Magic Aura
You alter an item’s aura so that it registers to detect spells (and spells with similar capabilities) as though it were nonmagical, or a magic item of a kind you specify, or the subject of a spell you specify.

If the object bearing magic aura has identify cast on it or is similarly examined, the examiner recognizes that the aura is false and detects the object’s actual qualities if he succeeds on a Will save. Otherwise, he believes the aura and no amount of testing reveals what the true magic is.

IF you want the item to still be identifiable so as not to arise suspicion, have Magic Aura cast on it by a sufficiently high level caster that the identify person cannot possibly pass his will save, and believes the item is nonmagical, or whatever magic item you want them to believe it is... in this case possibly a +1 weapon of "There is no person in me, stop looking"

[Allanimal]

Identify only works on objects, not creatures. So it seems by RAW the spell just fails.

Ooh! Thanks for that SRD quote. I missed that the first couple times I read the info about intelligent items.

[begooler]

I would use the rules in the DMG for identifying cursed items. The spell Identify has (I believe) a 1% chance to reveal that the item is cursed. Otherwise, it reveals a false result.

[herrhauptmann]

Perhaps give 'Bob' a will save against the identify (I know it breaks the rule about him being a creature adn identify failing against creatures).
If Bob fails, the caster learns Bobs powers.
If Bob succeeds, he can show exactly how many of his powers he cares to. Perhaps Bob will just reveal that he's a +X sword. And that he can cast cure moderate on the wielder 3/day, as a 'free' action.
I know it's not actually a free action, it just takes up Bobs action for that turn, but since the party doesn't know that Bob has his own actions....

If Bob were also a burning sword or something, it'd be cool to fluff his 'detect magic' as him eating the ambient magical emissions off of a person. Point the sword at a person, and first round the flames get larger if the person has magic on them.
2nd round:Multiple tongues of flame split off of the sword, one for each magical aura on the person.
3rd round: The tongues start to point at the items. Rings, boots, etc. For items that the sword has a line of sight to, the tongues change color in accordance with the different schools of magic. And intensity for different Caster Levels on the items. Wielder can make spellcraft checks to determine the different schools.

[Diarmuid]

One of the Forgotten Realms books has a section about self-identifying magical items.

You could have Bob simply reveal a small portion of what it does and then the party would be very unlikely to both identifying it.

IC - "You pick up the sword and immediately are bestowed with the knowledge that it's edge is honed to the point of being able to more easily cut through even the stoutest of armor and it's balance is such that your swings will more easily find their mark."

OOC - "It's a +2 sword"

To make it more believeable you could give them a little more to go one, maybe also letting them know it can do the Cure spell on it's wielder once per day. While this is not the whole truth, it's not a lie either, just a deception.

Or more easily defended is that it's a minor artifact, so nyah!

[herrhauptmann]

Or more easily defended is that it's a minor artifact, so nyah!

I dunno about you, but all the stories I've heard about artifacts from 1st and 2nd edition, if you found an artifact, the best thing you could do would be to throw it into the sea. If anyone came asking about the artifact, you give them a map showing where you tossed it from.
Basically, they just weren't worth the hassle.

There's a good bet I'd keep that attitude in any 3.5 game that found an artifact. Unless of course the DM throws minor artifacts at us by the truckload. Then it's more likely that a given artifact ISN'T the magical mcguffin that the BBEG is going to steal from us so he can use it in a ritual for world domination.

[Telonius]

In the campaign I DM, the party may soon come into possession of an intelligent item whose goals will eventually be in conflict with the party.

Let's just call this intelligent item "Bob", since intelligent item takes too long to type...

Anyway, Bob was planning on staying silent and not revealing its true nature until this point of conflict arises. Bob, in addition to its normal item properties, has lesser and greater powers as noted in the DMG, in Bob's case: it can cast cure moderate wounds on its wielder three times per day, detect magic at will, and communicate telepathically, though it chooses not to until the party goes against its wishes.

So Bob's plan is to lay low until it needs to make its personality known. But what happens when the players inevitably cast identify on it? Should identify spill the beans on the item's intelligence and its special powers? What about its alignment, stats, etc.? The DMG entry on intelligent items is unclear. The SRD about identify, to me at least, is also unclear:



Are Bob's stats and special powers considered "magic properties"? Is Bob an artifact, since it is an unique item?

As DM, I want to tell the caster of the identify spell that Bob is a +x Weapon, and leave it at that. I also am thinking that I will only enforce the bestowing of a negative level on the PC of an "incorrect" alignment wields it when Bob reveals his true nature.

But would this be unfair? Should I let a 1st level spell derail a major aspect of the plot? (FYI, it is a 10th level party?)

What about sense motive vs. Bob's bluff???

I... just had almost this exact situation crop up with a Tunic of Performance (bonuses to Perform checks, good item for a Bard). Here's how I handled it.

First of all, it also had a continuous "Magic Aura" spell to disguise the fact that it was anything but a regular Tunic of Performance. It was a purchased item, so the character never thought to Identify it. Detect Magic and Arcane Sight would have only worked to show the auras associated with a normal Tunic of Performance. Analyze Dweomer worked, but the Item got a will save (since I considered it attended by itself). Since Identify is a lesser version of Analyze Dweomer, I ruled that the Tunic would also get a will save for that.

The Tunic actually did communicate with the Bard, in the form of a voice only he could hear. The trick was finally revealed when the team encountered a second magic item, a guisarme, that started conversing with the voice in the Bard's head. (The tunic suggested that the Bard destroy the guisarme since it was obviously evil... fun times!)

[Fitz10019]

As DM, I want to tell the caster of the identify spell that Bob is a +x Weapon, and leave it at that.
... a major aspect of the plot? (FYI, it is a 10th level party?)

You're running a huge risk that the party will sell Bob before it plays its role in the plot. Especially with a 10th level party who probably already have better weapons that a +1. Revealing 3 cure mods/day is better than leaving it at +1, but it's still a risk.

These aren't a rules-based suggestions, but the best way to get the party to keep Bob without spilling the beans is to give it a unique ability that is useful on a daily basis and difficult to price, to make it worth keeping. Perhaps one of these:
Bob identifies as a +1 weapon, but when wielded it extends, increasing its reach. The wizard should notice that his Identify was incomplete.
When Identify is cast on Bob, the caster is given the Identify information for every item that is worn by the person holding Bob, except Bob itself. Now Bob is useful even if you don't know everything about it, and will be used by they party after every encounter.
Bob's pommel functions as a metamagic rod of (useful to your wizard/cleric).
Bob's pommel is decorated with 2 or 3 pearls of power of level (useful to your wizard/cleric).

The other risk to note is that, even if they keep Bob, they may want to further enchant it. If it identified as a +1, you'll have a pricing headache when they want to add more enchantments.

[Divide by Zero]

The other risk to note is that, even if they keep Bob, they may want to further enchant it. If it identified as a +1, you'll have a pricing headache when they want to add more enchantments.

Aren't pricings just based on the +X (and equivalent enhancements)? I don't think the intelligent item powers should affect that at all.

[herrhauptmann]

Aren't pricings just based on the +X (and equivalent enhancements)? I don't think the intelligent item powers should affect that at all.

Those have a cost too. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm
Cure moderate on wielder is +6500gp. Detect magic is +3600gp. He has telepathy, which by the chart also means he's got 1 more lesser power and 1 greater power. That's another +9000 in price.
Now Bob as a +1 sword with that stuff, his value is already higher than a regular +3 weapon.
Since those are all just flat costs, pricing Bob as they enchant him further is pretty simple. The problem they'll find, is that doing so boosts Bobs ego, and makes the will save to resist him that much harder.

[Allanimal]

Thanks everyone for the good ideas. I think your input has provided me with enough to make this plot twist work.

Oh and Fitz10019, being one of my players, your insight about how our PCs act is quite relevant, I'll take it into consideration, but please forget this thread... Don't make me get out the wand of Mindwipe. :smallwink:

[Divide by Zero]

Since those are all just flat costs, pricing Bob as they enchant him further is pretty simple.

This was my point, referring to the "pricing headache."

[herrhauptmann]

This was my point, referring to the "pricing headache."

It's really not all that bad.
Price a sword of +X. Simple. Cost of the magic is: 2k, 8k 18k, 32k, 50k, 72k, 98k, 128k, 164k, 200k.
Then making it intelligent cost a certain flat rate, and each of the powers cost a certain flat rate. At that point, it's just simple addition.

Not difficult like making a magic sword of +X cost, that's also a wondrous item that does Spell Q 3/day at a certain caster level, and Spell R 2/day at a different caster level, and grants access to a particular feat.

edit: The only problem is if the party doesn't know all of his abilities. But since it'd be the DM pricing them, and the DM knows all the abilities, and their cost, it'd be easy.

[Divide by Zero]

It's really not all that bad.
Price a sword of +X. Simple. Cost of the magic is: 2k, 8k 18k, 32k, 50k, 72k, 98k, 128k, 164k, 200k.
Then making it intelligent cost a certain flat rate, and each of the powers cost a certain flat rate. At that point, it's just simple addition.

Not difficult like making a magic sword of +X cost, that's also a wondrous item that does Spell Q 3/day at a certain caster level, and Spell R 2/day at a different caster level, and grants access to a particular feat.

edit: The only problem is if the party doesn't know all of his abilities. But since it'd be the DM pricing them, and the DM knows all the abilities, and their cost, it'd be easy.

I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing :smallconfused:

[herrhauptmann]

I'm pretty sure we're saying the same thing :smallconfused:

I guess just a different opinion of annoying/tedious when it comes to pricing items.

[Taelas]

Divide by Zero isn't the one who referred to it as a "pricing headache".

[herrhauptmann]

Divide by Zero isn't the one who referred to it as a "pricing headache".

D'oh, reading fail on my part...