Dragon Continuum

[Merk]

So you can be a Human.
Or you can be a Dragon.

You can also be a Half-Dragon. Presumably, that's halfway between being a Human and a Dragon.

You could be a Silverbrow Human, which is certainly more draconic than a plain human, but probably less draconic than a Half-Dragon.

You might be a Dragonborn, which is obviously less draconic than a Dragon, but seems more draconic than a Silverbrow Human at the very least.

What if you have a draconic bloodline? Where does that put you?

So, on a scale of 0 to 1, with Human = 0 and Dragon = 1, what are and where are all of the ways you can be (kind of) a dragon?

[Flickerdart]

A Dragon Disciple yet to take his 10th level is also pretty draconic, especially by the time he gets wings.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also remember Spellscale!

[BillyBobJoe]

Human: 0
Silverbrow Human: .1
Draconic Bloodline: .15
Dragonborn: .25
Draconic Template: .25
Dragonspawn: .4
Half-Dragon: .5
Dragon: 1

Half-Dragon Dragonborn Red Dragonspawn Draconic Silverbrow Human with Draconic blood = 1.65

That means that he is 65% more draconic than a dragon.

Mind=Blown

[Vortling]

A Dragon Disciple yet to take his 10th level is also pretty draconic, especially by the time he gets wings.

Along those lines a dragonfire adept gets more dragony the more levels he takes in his class.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also you can't forget those lovable little Kobalds. They are a PC race too, you know. True, Dragonwrought makes them a 1 on the scale, but without Dragonwrought I am not sure where they would fall.

[Wyntonian]

Human: 0
Silverbrow Human: .1
Draconic Bloodline: .15
Dragonborn: .25
Draconic Template: .25
Dragonspawn: .4
Half-Dragon: .5
Dragon: 1


Where's the dragon's Deep-south inbred cousin with questionable heritage? (Spellscale)

[Lateral]

Where's the dragon's Deep-south inbred cousin with questionable heritage? (Spellscale)

'Bout on par with where the Dragonborn are.

[Cog]

It just feels right to define Dragonwrought kobolds as .999 repeating on that scale, rather than as 1.0.

[Lateral]

It just feels right to define Dragonwrought kobolds as .999 repeating on that scale, rather than as 1.0.

Seconded. :smalltongue:

[NOhara24]

Dragons also have an alternate form spell that they utilize should they ever travel somewhere where their natural form wouldn't be accepted. In a sense, can't everything be a one on the scale? I mean, there's no way to discern that the NPC that the players just met isn't a dragon outside of asking.

[Lateral]

Dragons also have an alternate form spell that they utilize should they ever travel somewhere where their natural form wouldn't be accepted. In a sense, can't everything be a one on the scale? I mean, there's no way to discern that the NPC that the players just met isn't a dragon outside of asking.

So? This has nothing to do with the PCs' point of view, or even actual play.

[T.G. Oskar]

Human: 0
Silverbrow Human: .1
Draconic Bloodline: .15
Dragonborn: .25
Draconic Template: .25
Dragonspawn: .4
Half-Dragon: .5
Dragon: 1

Half-Dragon Dragonborn Red Dragonspawn Draconic Silverbrow Human with Draconic blood = 1.65

That means that he is 65% more draconic than a dragon.

Mind=Blown

You forgot one:
Dragon Disciple: 0 and/or .5*
*: The Dragon Disciple presents a most peculiar situation. The capstone of the PrC allows the character to become a full-fledged half-dragon, including a type change. However, the PrC's requirements are explicit in mentioning dragons cannot become Dragon Disciples. Thus, by Rules As Written, once taking the 10th level in the class, the character automatically enter a state of uncertainty in which it may or may not be a half-dragon. If the DM makes a ruling regarding the situation, the character will either lose the remaining traits of half-dragon (essentially its new type and any further benefits) or fully becomes a half-dragon and retains the features of the PrC.

A similar concept was exposed by physicist, experimental biologist and father of quantum mechanics, Erwin Schrödinger. See "Schrödinger's Cat problem" for more details.

[Qwertystop]

There are so many different ways to be partly dragon, but I notice that none of them are more dragony than a half-dragon.

[Glimbur]

There are so many different ways to be partly dragon, but I notice that none of them are more dragony than a half-dragon.

What about something with the Dragon type which isn't a true dragon? An example is the wyvern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm). It should clearly be somewhere on the scale and probably belongs above half dragon but below true dragon.

[Qwertystop]

What about something with the Dragon type which isn't a true dragon? An example is the wyvern (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wyvern.htm). It should clearly be somewhere on the scale and probably belongs above half dragon but below true dragon.

But it isn't on the dragon<->human scale. It's more like the dragon<->lizard scale.

[Cog]

A human permanently PaO'ed into a dragon would probably rank higher than half-dragon.

[LeshLush]

It just feels right to define Dragonwrought kobolds as .999 repeating on that scale, rather than as 1.0.
It wouldn't make a difference. 0.999... and 1.0 are equivalent. They are two different ways of expressing exactly the same value in base 10.

[Thurbane]

There's also the Draconic Creature template, that can be applied to a human.

So, in theory, you could be a Draconic Creature Dragonborn Silverbrow Human...I think you could still legally enter Dragon Disciple, so you could stick 1/2 dragon on there eventually as well.

Would that be about as much Dragon a Human could be, without actually being a true Dragon?

[Cog]

It wouldn't make a difference. 0.999... and 1.0 are equivalent. They are two different ways of expressing exactly the same value in base 10.
Yes, that's the joke. :smallcool:

[Analytica]

It wouldn't make a difference. 0.999... and 1.0 are equivalent. They are two different ways of expressing exactly the same value in base 10.

I don't understand this, though. 0.999... < 1.0 in terms of real numbers, surely? Do you mean how it is represented in a computer system with limited precision, or is there some mathematical subtlety here I am missing? I am asking because of genuine interest.

EDIT: I guess it might follow by considering the number as an infinite sum of a series of the decimals... not sure how to prove it, though...

[Lateral]

I don't understand this, though. 0.999... < 1.0 in terms of real numbers, surely? Do you mean how it is represented in a computer system with limited precision, or is there some mathematical subtlety here I am missing? I am asking because of genuine interest.

I could explain, but this is easier. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...)

[Tvtyrant]

I don't understand this, though. 0.999... < 1.0 in terms of real numbers, surely? Do you mean how it is represented in a computer system with limited precision, or is there some mathematical subtlety here I am missing? I am asking because of genuine interest.

I had a math teacher try to explain this one to me when I brought up the proof that 1=/=1 to get out of homework. After 5 tries I just took a B in the class and called it good.

[MeeposFire]

I don't understand this, though. 0.999... < 1.0 in terms of real numbers, surely? Do you mean how it is represented in a computer system with limited precision, or is there some mathematical subtlety here I am missing? I am asking because of genuine interest.

No .999999 repeating is equal to 1. Of course making people understand this turns into threads epic in scope and into giant flame wars. That topic is banned from many forums for that reason.

In case you are wondering there are mathematical proofs. I will show a simple one below (it is not the best one but it is much easier to see).

.666 repeating=2/3
.333 repeating=1/3

1/3+2/3=1
.666+.999=.999 (since both are repeating decimals they can be added together).

Since we have already that everything is equal .999 repeating=1.

You can find better (longer) proofs but that is a nice easy one.

[Talya]

It just feels right to define Dragonwrought kobolds as .999 repeating on that scale, rather than as 1.0.

Mathematically, 0.(9) equals 1.0. This isn't an approximation. They are the same number. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...)

Edit: well, majorly swordsaged there.

[Lateral]

Mathematically, 0.(9) equals 1.0. This isn't an approximation. They are the same number. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...)

Edit: well, majorly swordsaged there.

Yes, thank you for explaining the joke.

[Analytica]

Interesting, thank you so much for the references! I took several years of mathematics at university, but somehow never came across this particular example. :smallredface:

[MeeposFire]

Interesting, thank you so much for the references! I took several years of mathematics at university, but somehow never came across this particular example. :smallredface:

It does not really come up much so it is not surprising it did not get talked about. Usually it is just a curiosity that a student brings up and takes a life of its own.

[Hazzardevil]

You forgot one:
Dragon Disciple: 0 and/or .5*
*: The Dragon Disciple presents a most peculiar situation. The capstone of the PrC allows the character to become a full-fledged half-dragon, including a type change. However, the PrC's requirements are explicit in mentioning dragons cannot become Dragon Disciples. Thus, by Rules As Written, once taking the 10th level in the class, the character automatically enter a state of uncertainty in which it may or may not be a half-dragon. If the DM makes a ruling regarding the situation, the character will either lose the remaining traits of half-dragon (essentially its new type and any further benefits) or fully becomes a half-dragon and retains the features of the PrC.

A similar concept was exposed by physicist, experimental biologist and father of quantum mechanics, Erwin Schrödinger. See "Schrödinger's DRAGON problem" for more details.


No .999999 repeating is equal to 1. Of course making people understand this turns into threads epic in scope and into giant flame wars. That topic is banned from many forums for that reason.

In case you are wondering there are mathematical proofs. I will show a simple one below (it is not the best one but it is much easier to see).

.666 repeating=2/3
.333 repeating=1/3

1/3+2/3=1
.666+.999=.999 (since both are repeating decimals they can be added together).

Since we have already that everything is equal .999 repeating=1.

You can find better (longer) proofs but that is a nice easy one.

Basically, 0.99999 might as well equal 1, since it is hard to get that close to 1 without being 1.

[Talya]

Basically, 0.99999 might as well equal 1, since it is hard to get that close to 1 without being 1.

No, that misses the point.

0.(9) is not close to one. It is one. It isn't that it "might as well equal 1," but it entirely equals one. There is no infinitessimal difference...they are the exact same number. 0.(9) = 1 in the same way that 3 - 2 = 1. It is an alternate means of writing the exact same number. The best proof is this one (from the wiki link earlier):

x = 0.(9)
10x = 9.(9)
10x - x = 9.(9) - 0.(9)
9x = 9
x = 1

[Divide by Zero]

If you're having trouble thinking of it conceptually, look at it this way: if you subtract 0.999... from 1, what do you get?

[TheGeckoKing]

Are we differentiating between critters with just the Dragon type (0.75), and True Dragons (1.0)?


If you're having trouble thinking of it conceptually, look at it this way: if you subtract 0.999... from 1, what do you get?

With regards to the math, 1 - 0.999 is a number which i'm sure isn't 0, although might as well be. But 2/3 + 1/3 = 1 but also equals 0.9999999..., but then that makes no sense, but, but........ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGIMMADASASLAADAHHHHHHHH HH*gurgleg4ijjjjgmm

GAME OVER. PLEASE INSERT HEAL SPELL TO REMOVE INSANITY.

[Merk]

Let's set the bar at True Dragon = 1, as I'm sure there are ways to get the Dragon type while still being remarkably humanoid.

[Gnome Alone]

If you're having trouble thinking of it conceptually, look at it this way: if you subtract 0.999... from 1, what do you get?

Thank you for stopping my head from asploding. That makes sense now.

[Hazzardevil]

I agree, yet all the homebrewer's disagree.

[Greenish]

Human: 0
Silverbrow Human: .1
Draconic Bloodline: .15
Dragonborn: .25
Draconic Template: .25
Dragonspawn: .4
Half-Dragon: .5
Dragon: 1I don't think Dragonborn belongs to that continuum. It has nothing to do with having a draconic heritage.

Also, the draconic bloodline comes in minor, intermediate and major (for some species, others only have up to intermediate). You can't give all of them the same numerical value, surely?

[kardar233]

I think that for adding Draconic fractions, we should use relativistic addition so as not to go above 100% Dragon.

Exempli Gratia: A Half-Dragon Dragonborn Human would, under normal addition be .75 Dragon. Under this type of addition, the result would be ((.5+.25)/(1+(.5*.25))), which works out to .(6)=2/3.