Miko killing Shojo

[McDouggal]

Can anyone link me to a forum post where it was mathematically shown how Miko could've killed Shojo in one shot? Thanks.

[Kish]

Can anyone link me to a forum post where it was mathematically shown how Miko could've killed Shojo in one shot? Thanks.
...uh...

Here.
Shojo: 14th-level Aristocrat, Constitution unknown, Venerable.
Constitution, minimum, 1.
Hit points, minimum, 16.
...Do I really need to do Miko's maximum katana damage, too?

[McDouggal]

Kinda, no. She was 15th level. Sorry, I play 4e, have never owned a 3.5 DMG.

[NerfTW]

Can anyone link me to a forum post where it was mathematically shown how Miko could've killed Shojo in one shot? Thanks.

I doubt anyone's done the math, but Shojo doesn't have class levels, is a frail old man, and wasn't wearing anything more than ceremonial armor at best.

Miko is a Paladin high enough level to take on multiple members of the Order at once. (And all of them when they're disadvantaged)

Are we going to try to mathematically prove Belkar could have killed that Gnome merchant in one shot next?

[McDouggal]

Like I said, I have not read even pathfinder, let alone the 3.5 DMG.

[Darklord Bright]

It doesn't really matter, in any case - if The Giant wants to kill a character, he will. Story comes first and all that, what what.

[Kish]

Kinda, no. She was 15th level.
Who are you saying was 15th level?

Miko's level is unestablished. Shojo was 14th-level, by his own word, and not a she.

[awa]

power attack with a two handed weapon can do a lot of damage (although i honestly don't remember if she was using a two handed weapon)
vasarius uses 6th level spells so is at least level 11 so we can assume miko is at least level 11 as well. so base katana damage+d10 +str + 1/2 str if she power attacks with a two handed weapon thats +22 damage if she crits that twice that. An aristocratic level 14 has an average of 49 hp but shojo is an old man so he would have 21 hp on average so its really quite easy.

[Gitman00]

Well, okay, here goes.

Miko:
Minimum Str 13 (+1 bonus), as per Class and Level Geekery thread.
Katana damage 1d10+1 (2-11 damage), critical hit 2d10+2 (4-22 damage)
Feats: Power Attack

Shojo:
Average Con 4 (10-6 for Venerable age), -3 penalty
Hit points 14d8-42, avg 21 HP

The way the scene plays out, it's fairly obvious that Shojo is helpless, so Miko probably gets an automatic critical. Even if she doesn't, she has the Power Attack feat, which allows her to add up to 13-15 points to damage, for an equal penalty to hit. Shojo has no armor class to speak of, so she can power attack pretty hard without worrying about missing. Bottom line, assuming even a minimal strength score and a non-magical weapon, she can theoretically do up to 37 points of damage with that one swing. More than enough to wipe out Shojo's 21 hit points. (31 to take him to -10)

EDIT: Reworked the math based on d8 hit dice

[Dvandemon]

Can anyone link me to a forum post where it was mathematically shown how Miko could've killed Shojo in one shot? Thanks.

Okay... Where'd you get the idea someone did the math? Why do you need to know exactly? Why bring up such an old topic?

[Gurgeh]

For the record, the Aristocrat class has d8 hit dice.

[Tulya]

Aristocrats get 8 base HP on their first level, and 1-8 base HP on each level up. If Shojo has a Constitution score of 4 after applying his age penalties, and if I understand the rules correctly, his health should be estimated as follows:

5 HP + 13d min(1; d8-3) [μ = 2.25] = 34


The odd dice roll notation comes from here:

Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).

Which turns 1d8 - 3 into a possible roll of (1,1,1,1,2,3,4,5).


Non-standard disclaimer: I am not a rules lawyer. By using information from this post, you agree to indemnify and harmless myself for any losses incurred by any errors in the information above. </joke>

[Andorax]

I thought only PCs get auto-max at 1st.

[Mystic Muse]

Okay, assuming Shojo got Max HP at first level, had standard con, and rolled the average for HP each level, he would have 18 HP at this point due to aging penalties. A high level Paladin is more than capable of dealing 28 damage with one slash.

[factotum]

Okay, assuming Shojo got Max HP at first level, had standard con, and rolled the average for HP each level, he would have 18 HP at this point due to aging penalties.

OK, we've got 14HP, 18HP and 34HP all being given as reasonable average hit point totals for Shojo--which is correct? :smallconfused:

Not that it matters anyway. As already pointed out, if the plot requires that a character one-hit-kills another then that is what will happen, regardless of their relative strength or hit point total.

[Mystic Muse]

OK, we've got 14HP, 18HP and 34HP all being given as reasonable average hit point totals for Shojo--which is correct? :smallconfused:

Not that it matters anyway. As already pointed out, if the plot requires that a character one-hit-kills another then that is what will happen, regardless of their relative strength or hit point total.

I'm making the assumption that he gets max at first level like PCs do, and then that he rolled average on his HP at later levels. The average of an 8 sided dice is 4.5, so we round down to 4 on each HP roll. Since he probably had a constitution score of 10 before, after aging penalties his Constitution score is 4 giving him a -3 Penalty. This impacts his HP, taking away 3 HP from every level. So, what would be 60 HP is instead 18 because of the huge hit being venerable gives to survivability. If he were to roll on every level, it would instead be 14.

[Gitman00]

I'm making the assumption that he gets max at first level like PCs do, and then that he rolled average on his HP at later levels. The average of an 8 sided dice is 4.5, so we round down to 4 on each HP roll. Since he probably had a constitution score of 10 before, after aging penalties his Constitution score is 4 giving him a -3 Penalty. This impacts his HP, taking away 3 HP from every level. So, what would be 60 HP is instead 18 because of the huge hit being venerable gives to survivability. If he were to roll on every level, it would instead be 14.

It's actually more practical to just multiply 4.5 x 14 when figuring averages. Just think of it like you're rolling alternating 4s and 5s. Also, I think Andorax is right. Only PCs get max HP at 1st level.

Anyway, I updated my estimate above based on d8 hit dice. I had thought Aristocrats rolled a d4; can't get to the SRD from this computer.

[Morquard]

I'm making the assumption that he gets max at first level like PCs do, and then that he rolled average on his HP at later levels. The average of an 8 sided dice is 4.5, so we round down to 4 on each HP roll. Since he probably had a constitution score of 10 before, after aging penalties his Constitution score is 4 giving him a -3 Penalty. This impacts his HP, taking away 3 HP from every level. So, what would be 60 HP is instead 18 because of the huge hit being venerable gives to survivability. If he were to roll on every level, it would instead be 14.
No the math does not work that way.
"Take average per level" works under the assumption that the die roll is balanced, because over the course of a few levels a roll of 8 is balanced by a 1, etc. So for the ease of calculation you can use the expected value of the die.

With a -3 though it's not balanced. A roll of 1 is the same as a 4, both give 1 HP. So in reality you can't actually roll a 1 or 2 or 3 (since those would result in -2,-1 and 0 HP, all of which are impossible), and all those are actually 4s

So the average before HP penalty is: (4+4+4+4+5+6+7+8) / 8 = 42 / 8 = 5,25

The average result after HP penalty would be: (1+1+1+1+2+3+4+5) / 8 = 18/8 = 2.25/level.

If you just calculate the total of 14 levels at 4.5 HP = 63 hp (or 56, if you round to 4) and then subtract 14 levels of -3 aging penalties = 42 you are effectively giving him those -2, -1 and 0 HP/level on a roll of 1,2 and 3, which is not possible.

[Gitman00]

No the math does not work that way.
"Take average per level" works under the assumption that the die roll is balanced, because over the course of a few levels a roll of 8 is balanced by a 1, etc. So for the ease of calculation you can use the expected value of the die.

With a -3 though it's not balanced. A roll of 1 is the same as a 4, both give 1 HP. So in reality you can't actually roll a 1 or 2 or 3 (since those would result in -2,-1 and 0 HP, all of which are impossible), and all those are actually 4s

So the average before HP penalty is: (1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8) / 8 = 36 / 8 = 4.5
The average result after HP penalty would be: (1+1+1+1+2+3+4+5) / 8 = 18/8 = 2.25/level.

If you just calculate the total of 14 levels at 4.5 HP = 63 hp (or 56, if you round to 4) and then subtract 14 levels of -3 aging penalties = 42 you are effectively giving him those -2, -1 and 0 HP/level on a roll of 1,2 and 3, which is not possible.

Fixed your equation in bold, but you might be right. In that case, Tulya's formula is (almost) the correct one and 31 would be the average (still pretty sure only PCs get max HP at 1st level). I suppose it depends on how you interpret that rule. Since aging penalties apply retroactively, I had been operating under the assumption that you'd subtract from the character's HP total rather than from each previous die roll, but this way actually makes more sense now that I think about it.

[Mindfreak]

You might be right. In that case, Tulya's formula is (almost) the correct one and 31 would be the average (still pretty sure only PCs get max HP at 1st level). I suppose it depends on how you interpret that rule. Since aging penalties apply retroactively, I had been operating under the assumption that you'd subtract from the character's HP total rather than from each previous die roll, but this way actually makes more sense now that I think of it.

Look, does it really matter? All of this math?

Mike was a high level paladin.
Shojo was a high level Aristocraut.

There is almost no way Miko couldn't have killed Shojo unless she got all ones for damage. Shojo is sure to have a low health because in D&D when you grow older your constitution score drops. Health is based off of constitution.
Remember, Mr. Scruffy was able to kill a commoner NPC with one blow. And he's a cat.:smalltongue:

[Gitman00]

Look, does it really matter? All of this math?

Mike was a high level paladin.
Shojo was a high level Aristocraut.

There is almost no way Miko couldn't have killed Shojo unless she got all ones for damage. Shojo is sure to have a low health because in D&D when you grow older your constitution score drops. Health is based off of constitution.
Remember, Mr. Scruffy was able to kill a commoner NPC with one blow. And he's a cat.:smalltongue:

Well, no. It doesn't matter. Plot says Miko kills Shojo, so Miko kills Shojo. :smalltongue: But the OP's question was, how could the math work within D&D rules? And so the thread attempts to answer the question.

By the way, the cat killing the commoner is kind of a D&D 3.5 in-joke. A cat and a commoner have the same hit points and the cat has a higher dex, so by the rules the cat will usually win in a straight-up fight. :smallbiggrin:

[Mindfreak]

Well, no. It doesn't matter. Plot says Miko kills Shojo, so Miko kills Shojo. :smalltongue: But the OP's question was, how could the math work within D&D rules? And so the thread attempts to answer the question.

By the way, the cat killing the commoner is kind of a D&D 3.5 in-joke. A cat and a commoner have the same hit points and the cat has a higher dex, so by the rules the cat will usually win in a straight-up fight. :smallbiggrin:

The OP's question was for a link to the thread that has the math. He didn't exactly ask for everyone to do the math here.

[Armand]

First of all, everything in a story doesnt have to done by book, since we're not lawful outsiders, yet its quite simple actually... (to me anyway)

When Miko pushed the old men to throne and make him sit, Shojo stopped act (surrendered, accept whatever miko going to do, or whatever you like to say), which mean easly considerable as helpless... I mean literally he was helpless, we're talking about miko here =P

So this mean the swing was coup the grace... which mean automatic critical hit, and requiring a fort save (dc = dealted damage) for not to die...

[Warder]

A con of 4? Seriously? Wouldn't that make a single bacteria a serious threat, nevermind a katana?

[Mystic Muse]

A con of 4? Seriously? Wouldn't that make a single bacteria a serious threat, nevermind a katana?

That's what being venerable age does to a human being.

[MeeposFire]

A con of 4? Seriously? Wouldn't that make a single bacteria a serious threat, nevermind a katana?

Bacteria (or any other pathogen) are never a problem when you are leader of a nation that has lots of clerics/paladins (one being a son that loves you at the time) that can cast cure disease that automatically kills the bad bacteria no problem (but leaves good bacteria alone yay).

[Kish]

That's what being venerable age does to a human being.
Yep. People in the real world are often killed by bacteria at age 90.

[Morty]

Isn't there in fact a passage in DMG that in a game of D&D, things should sometimes just happen without rolling any dice, such as when someone is trying to execute someone who's not defending himself?

[KillianHawkeye]

Isn't there in fact a passage in DMG that in a game of D&D, things should sometimes just happen without rolling any dice, such as when someone is trying to execute someone who's not defending himself?

I think there is a section which suggests that the DM can opt to have certain things happen without a dice roll. I'm also pretty sure that that section is merely a time-saving option rather than any kind of rule statement, which means that the inverse can also be true depending on each group's preferences.

[Klear]

I'd say that is a kind of a rules statement. Otherwise AFAIK if a character was to climb 20 stairs, he could be forced to roll on every step and then have a pretty good chance to trip by throwing 1.

[Tulya]

I'd say that is a kind of a rules statement. Otherwise AFAIK if a character was to climb 20 stairs, he could be forced to roll on every step and then have a pretty good chance to trip by throwing 1.

Skill checks don't automatically succeed on a natural roll of 20, or fail on a natural roll of 1. Barring DM intervention, you'll never fail a task for which the DC is less than or equal to your skill ranks + ability modifer +1.

Edit: Actual relevant rule snippet.

Unlike with attack rolls and saving throws, a natural roll of 20 on the d20 is not an automatic success, and a natural roll of 1 is not an automatic failure.

[SoC175]

Fixed your equation in bold, but you might be right. In that case, Tulya's formula is (almost) the correct one and 31 would be the average (still pretty sure only PCs get max HP at 1st level). I suppose it depends on how you interpret that rule. Since aging penalties apply retroactively, I had been operating under the assumption that you'd subtract from the character's HP total rather than from each previous die roll, but this way actually makes more sense now that I think about it.Actually Con-Changes are simply subtracted (or added) to the characters current hp total. It doesn't matter how you actually rolled your dice.


If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

So assuming that he started with a 10 (or any other even number) he would have lost HD*2 hit-points upon reaching old age and another HD*2 hit-points subtracted from his current hp-total (as long as each result left at least HD*1 hit-points)

[factotum]

Which effectively means 14HP is the most likely amount for him to have, unless he started with a CON bonus--he would have averaged 4.5hp per level, and then lost 4 of those, so he'd be down to the minimum 1HP/hit dice.

[Skavensrule]

I admit I haven't played 3.5 for years and never DM'd in that edition, but everyone her is making the assumption that Shojo earned all his levels during his current age category. Shouldn't the HP reflect that at least a third of his levels were probably gained before he had any age penalties?

[Kish]

How would it reflect that? You lose hit points for all your levels if your Constitution drops.

[Skavensrule]

How would it reflect that? You lose hit points for all your levels if your Constitution drops.

Okay, I wasn't sure but then I haven't DM'd in more than twenty years. I prefer to be a PC.

[Gitman00]

Actually Con-Changes are simply subtracted (or added) to the characters current hp total. It doesn't matter how you actually rolled your dice.

That's what I had thought, but here's the ambiguous part: When new levels are rolled, you must gain a minimum of 1 hp regardless of Con penalties. If you roll a 1 on your hd and have a -2 con penalty, you still gain 1 hp. Wouldn't it make sense to apply that same principle retroactively as well, when you start taking aging penalties?

In practice, of course, not many players actually keep track of what they rolled at each level; when they level up they just add the new hp to their current total and keep playing. So yeah, in an actual game, you'd most likely just subtract from your current total.

[Boogastreehouse]

Sorry, I play 4e, have never owned a 3.5 DMG.

Aw man, that's too bad. You really should give it a try.

I gave 4th edition a try; played in a campaign for about a year in fact, just to really give it a fair shot, and then I went right back to good ol' three-five.

Sure 3.5 has some balance issues, but despite (or maybe because of) that, I find it a much more enjoyable game. (I'm just glad I didn't blow any money on all those 4e books)

[Dr.Epic]

3 nat. 20's in a row=auto kill

'nough said

[weeping eagle]

The OP's question was for a link to the thread that has the math. He didn't exactly ask for everyone to do the math here.In fact, his question was, "can anyone link me...?"

The answer is, yes, anyone can link you to such a thread, assuming such a thread exists.

------------------------- CUT THREAD HERE ------------------------------

[dps]

In fact, his question was, "can anyone link me...?"

The answer is, yes, anyone can link you to such a thread, assuming such a thread exists.



I disagree--I'm sure many people lack the computer skills to link anyone to a given thread. :smallbiggrin:

[Zerg Cookie]

In fact, his question was, "can anyone link me...?"

The answer is, yes, anyone can link you to such a thread, assuming such a thread exists.

------------------------- CUT THREAD HERE ------------------------------

In fact, you're just being annoying (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ptitle3zaap0y7ym6o?from=Main.MathematiciansAnswer) right now.
Obviously if no such thread exists, he would have wanted the math here.

[Kish]

Obviously if no such thread exists, he would have wanted the math here.
Except that when I gave it to him, his reply was enigmatic, asserted that someone (exactly who is unknown) was level 15, and was his last post in this thread.

[Forikroder]

unless im misinformed even if Shojo had a bazillion health is Miko rolls 20 to crit, a 20 on a confirm then a 20 to confirm that she gets the one hit kill

[derfenrirwolv]

Reasonable assumptions about Miko

Strength 20 adds 5 points of damage normally, 7 on a two handed weapon. (fluff aside, a paladin mostly bashes things, they find ways to up their strength and she kicked one goblin hard enough to knock his head clean off AFTER she lost her magic items)

+5 katana adds 5 pts of damage.

16th level

Power attack for all 16 points (power attack lets you make less accurate attacks that hit harder). Even without her BAB, she has +5 to hit from the sword and +5 to hit from her strength to hit someone who's AC MIGHT be as high as 10, she almost can't miss.
This adds 1.5 times the amount you subtract from your attack to damage on a two handed swing, so +24 pts of damage.

So she's doing 1d10 +36 points of damage. Thats more hit points than he probably has on the bonus alone.

If she crits its 2d10+72 points of damage. More than enough for the old man and the throne.

[Kish]

unless im misinformed even if Shojo had a bazillion health is Miko rolls 20 to crit, a 20 on a confirm then a 20 to confirm that she gets the one hit kill
That is a house rule.

...and a thoroughly unnecessary one here, since Miko doesn't even need to roll particularly well to one-shot Shojo.

[TSED]

By the way, Shojo had time for last words - I imagine it left him at -9 and bleeding (and he obviously failed his stabilization check).