Belkar discussion has been done to death. What about Durkon?

[Dakaran]

(Yes, pun intended.) It seems like there's been a lot of discussion over the past couple of weeks around Belkar's death. Does anyone have any interesting thoughts around Durkon's death and/or his surrounding prophesies?

My current theory is this: Durkon will be killed in some sort of fight relating to Girard's gate. (On a side note I think Belkar will survive that.) I think Girard's gate will be destroyed in the ensuing battle. (If I had to guess I think that Team Evil will this time destroy the gate, but that is beside the point.) My thought is that Kraagor's gate is in Dwarven lands. My speculation here is based on images in 276 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). There's a lot of snow and evergreens surrounding the 5th gate indicating northern lands, possibly mountains, which if I remember correctly describes Durkon's homeland. Since in 276 you can see that Kraagor's statue is in that environment I would believe that's where the final gate is. The surviving members of the OotS will bring Durkon's body with them on their way to the last gate since they obviously won't have an alive party member that raise people. They will thus bring Durkon's 2nd prophesy to fruition by bringing him, posthumously, back to Dwarven lands, where they will then get him resurrected by some local cleric. With Girard's gate destroyed and the final gate in dwarven lands Team Evil will have to turn their attention to that gate. [On the Origin of PCs spoiler alert] When Team Evil finally comes they will undoubtedly bring death and destruction, thus fulfilling Durkon's 1st prophesy.

[hamishspence]

The surviving members of the OotS will bring Durkon's body with them on their way to the last gate since they obviously won't have an alive party member that raise people. They will thus bring Durkon's 2nd prophesy to fruition by bringing him, posthumously, back to Dwarven lands, where they will then get him resurrected by some local cleric.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

It was "How will I finally be returning to my beloved dwarven homelands" "Posthumously"

That said, it can certainly happen that way- it's just the prophesy won't be fulfilled yet.

Unless Durkon is never returned home, after being resurrected that time, and dying another time.

[Dakaran]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

It was "How will I finally be returning to my beloved dwarven homelands" "Posthumously"

That said, it can certainly happen that way- it's just the prophesy won't be fulfilled yet.

Unless Durkon is never returned home, after being resurrected that time, and dying another time.

I did forget about the "finally" in the prophesy, but then I'll just say that if Durkon never leaves dwarven lands again then the prophesy will have come true. Alternatively, you could probably loosely interpret Durkon's phrasing as referring to the first time he can go home after his extended "mission" away from home, but I still like my first thought that once Durkon is returned to his homelands that he won't want to leave them.

[John Cribati]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html

It was "How will I finally be returning to my beloved dwarven homelands" "Posthumously"

That said, it can certainly happen that way- it's just the prophesy won't be fulfilled yet.

Unless Durkon is never returned home, after being resurrected that time, and dying another time.

If you want to get technical, Since Roy died in 443, everything he's done since 665 was done "posthumously."

[Yora]

What's speaking against the most obvious option, that durkon lives on for a hundred more years, but never returns to his homeland until after that?

[Dakaran]

What's speaking against the most obvious option, that durkon lives on for a hundred more years, but never returns to his homeland until after that?

I'm speaking against that in my theory that something will happen to Girard's gate to destroy it, which would then require both Team Evil and the OotS to seek out the 5th and final gate. Based on my observational evidence, that points to dwarven lands. Durkon, being a part of the OotS, wouldn't just skip out on the Order and not go to his homelands with them so I've theorized that Durkon will die inbetween now and the point that the Order enters dwarven lands. The most seemingly obvious cause of death will be a battle over Girard's gate with Team Evil, although at this point Durkon could also be killed in the current battle with the Linear Guild.

[hamishspence]

What's speaking against the most obvious option, that durkon lives on for a hundred more years, but never returns to his homeland until after that?

It's not implausible- but it would be a bit of a surprise for the prophesy in Origin of PCs to not come true in the main timeframe.

edit: swordsaged.

[John Cribati]

The way I see it, there are a few ways the prophecy can be "fulfilled" on technicality. These are only examples, but it should give you something to think about.


Durkon arrives in Dwarven Lands, alive. He then leaves to go somewhere. He dies while out, and his body is returned to Dwarven lands. So his final return to Dwarven lands is posthumous.
Durkon arrives in Dwarven Lands, alive. He then leaves to go somewhere. He dies while out, and is resurrected, returning to Dwarven lands to live out his days. Because he dies before he returned, he technically returns posthumously.
Durkon arrives in Dwarven Lands, alive. He then leaves to go somewhere. He dies while out, and is body is returned. He is resurrected and leaves again. This time he dies and his body is eaten by wild animals. He returned posthumously, and his body isn't going back, so that was his "final" return.
Durkon dies at a gate. His body is returned. He is resurrected, and lives out his days in the company of his family. He still returned posthumously.


I know some of these actually end with Durkon going to Hel.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

I dunno about the “finally” bit. Seems a bit more twisty than the Oracle’s usual mathematician’s answers. I certainly wouldn’t rule it out, though.

[NYCharlie212]

What's speaking against the most obvious option, that durkon lives on for a hundred more years, but never returns to his homeland until after that?

Because the OP's theory actually makes sense for the story. I thought about this once before as well and it seems to make sense.

What makes for a better story? Oots finishing their mission and Durkon's returning home after his death is mentioned in the passing, or Durkon returning home after dying in the defense of Girard's gate to get resurrected at his homeland for a final defense against Team Evil/LG/IFCC etc to protect the last gate?

[Dakaran]

Because the OP's theory actually makes sense for the story. I thought about this once before as well and it seems to make sense.

What makes for a better story? Oots finishing their mission and Durkon's returning home after his death is mentioned in the passing, or Durkon returning home after dying in the defense of Girard's gate to get resurrected at his homeland for a final defense against Team Evil/LG/IFCC etc to protect the last gate?

+1. While Herpestidae does list valid ways for the prophesy to be interpreted, there are just some ways that make a more exciting story. I'm not saying I'm 100% right. Rich is pretty good at doing some unexpected stuff, but I think there are a lot of interpretations that while valid, would make for a pretty boring or less interesting story.

[John Cribati]

Oh, I wasn't saying that those things were likely to happen just that their happening could fulfill the prophecy on technicality, due to the ambiguity of "finally" as well as what can count as "posthumous" due to the possibility of getting rezzed.

[Silver Swift]

Alternatively, you could probably loosely interpret Durkon's phrasing as referring to the first time he can go home after his extended "mission" away from home, but I still like my first thought that once Durkon is returned to his homelands that he won't want to leave them.

I don't find it to be a more looser interpretation, if anything it is more natural than the one hamishspence gave. At the very least it is the interpretation Durkon had in mind when he asked his question (yes, this is a prophecy so that doesn't have to mean anything, but the oracle has never been twisting prophecies like that).

[John Cribati]

Also, Durkon had a different prophecy that said that when he returns to Dwarven lands, he'd bring Death and Destruction. The logical thing to do to prevent that prophecy from happening would be to forbid him from leaving Dwarven lands, since he can't return if he doesn't leave.. Just some food for thought.

[snikrept]

That second prophecy may just mean that he'll return accompanied by Malack, high priest of Nergal, god of Death and Destruction

[SamBurke]

That second prophecy may just mean that he'll return accompanied by Malack, high priest of Nergal, god of Death and Destruction

Yes. Best intrepretation ever. And, quite likely.

[Dakaran]

That second prophecy may just mean that he'll return accompanied by Malack, high priest of Nergal, god of Death and Destruction

Oooo, I like that. Interesting thought!

[Frozen_Feet]

Better yet, he'll return as his undying lackey, fulfilling all parts of the prophecy. XD

[Dakaran]

Can someone with access to a copy of On the Origin of PCs provide an actual quote of the prophesy regarding Durkon?

[Prowl]

"posthumous" doesn't have quite the same impact in a world where you can raise the dead

[Klear]

I'd say it means "after death and before resurrection". Anything else is a lame cop-out IMO.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

I don't think that Durkon will die in the forseeable future. Dwarves are long-lived, and I think that he'll survive the final battle against team evil. Durjon asked how he'll FINALLY return to the Dwarven lands. That doesn't rule out a return to Dwarven lands BEFORE that, though. :durkon:

[Ashadar]

When Durkon said "finally" he meant "after all this time" or.. "at last". And I honestly doubt the Oracle had any reason to twist it into "the last time he returns there". Remember Belkar's prophecy? Everyone just went on and on about the "causing of Roy's death" with the ring of jumping, and then what happened? The oracle threw every death causing theory that's been said into Belkar's face, and then he got killed.

The Oracle never twisted prophecies, he's just a smart mouth at times( Xykon is in his throne room) or he just gives prophecies in the form of riddles, like V's or Haley's prophecies.

That said I think this theory makes complete sense, and I'm surprised I didn't think of it before. It all fits.

[Forikroder]

isnt it more likely that the rift was not actually in waht Durkon would call his dwarven homelands?

[Dakaran]

isnt it more likely that the rift was not actually in waht Durkon would call his dwarven homelands?

Based on what?

[rekuu]

I'm tossing my vote into the OPs theory, and against overly reading into the "finally."

Besides, it would be darn silly to have 5 epic gates and only use four of them for the story.

[NYCharlie212]

Can someone with access to a copy of On the Origin of PCs provide an actual quote of the prophesy regarding Durkon?


High Priest of Odin: You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

High Priest of Thor: But... but he's at home now!

High Priest of Odin: The prophecy specifies when he RETURNS home, not when he is AT home. Do you understand?

[Dakaran]

High Priest of Odin: You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

High Priest of Thor: But... but he's at home now!

High Priest of Odin: The prophecy specifies when he RETURNS home, not when he is AT home. Do you understand?


Thanks, NYCharlie212. Given the actual quote, as interesting as the suggested theory may be, I think I would lean against the prophesy meaning ...
that Durkon will return accompanied by Malack, high priest of Nergal, god of Death and Destruction.

[FireDrake]

High Priest of Odin: You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

High Priest of Thor: But... but he's at home now!

High Priest of Odin: The prophecy specifies when he RETURNS home, not when he is AT home. Do you understand?


In that context it could be interpreted that the Prophecy itself was a lie from Odin, in order to get Durkon into a position where he can help defend the gates.

But that might be reading into it a bit too much. :smallbiggrin:

[Gift Jeraff]

It could mean Durkon will die and Malack will refuse to resurrect him on account of his religion, but he will agree to accompany them as they travel to Dwarven Lands to get him raised.

[Gorbad Ironclaw]

Perhaps when the Goblins are driven out of Azure city, They go northwards, the OoTS (bereft of Belkar, maybe?) doing the same. The Gobbos and OoTS encounter each-other in Dwarf lands, resulting in Durkon's death and death and destruction sweeping across the Dwarf lands.

[Oh R'lyeh]

Possibly he dies while outside his homeland, his body is brought to his homeland because of pressing time (if another Gate is in his homeland) and he is raised by his order of Thor budies and the rest of his life is spent defending said Gate?

[Captain Alien]

Maybe "posthumously" refers to the Dwarven Homeland's destruction. Which would fulfill both the dwarven priest's prophecy and the oracle's. Has this been considered before?

[John Cribati]

High Priest of Odin: You have a young cleric named Durkon Thundershield in your temple. When next he returns home, he will bring death and destruction for us all.

High Priest of Thor: But... but he's at home now!

High Priest of Odin: The prophecy specifies when he RETURNS home, not when he is AT home. Do you understand?


And again, the smart thing to do would be to never allow him to leave. But then again, there might be some kind of Attack, and he gets captured as a slave.

[hamishspence]

And again, the smart thing to do would be to never allow him to leave. But then again, there might be some kind of Attack, and he gets captured as a slave.

They did think that:

"Even if he was imprisoned, he'd eventually escape and then disaster would surely follow."

[Kish]

The smart thing to do would have been to explain the prophecy to him and count on his Lawful Goodness to take care of the situation (making sure he never left again, or if he did, never came back).

But, of course, then we wouldn't have him in the story.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Also of note: “home” is a little vague on scope. Is “home” the Dwarven Homelands, his community, his neighborhood, or his house?

If the Dwarven Homelands as a whole, there was little chance of Durkon ever leaving to begin with, had the High Priests not kicked Durkon out.

The High Priests seemed to be under the impression that Home referred to some local community that Durkon only occasionally leaves, given the example of visiting family.

But if the High Priest was wrong and home was a much smaller scope, then Death and Destruction would come. Ultimately, the only choices are permanent house arrest, and permanent exile. Both of which are quite cruel. With permanent exile, at least there is the chance to get out and get some exercise.