Help with a Spellthief Build

[Graha013]

Hey everyone - I've got a game tomorrow afternoon and am introducing a new CL 4 character. I've chosen to go more with 'flair' and personality than specifically with optimization, and came up with a character who is all about one-up-manship. He is a lvl 4 Human Bard 2/Spellthief 2. His role will primarily be skill-monkey, but I plan on him going ST 16/Bard 4 total.

Stats are:10/18/11/15/10/18, and I dumped his lvl 4 ability bonus to INT to make 16..

I really need to make sure that, while I'm not looking for the most optimized tweak out there (and multiclassing does take away from it) a fairly confident build. What I have now (and planned)

1 Weapon Finesse
1 Human - Extra Music
3 Quick Draw
6 Flick of the Wrist
9 Master Spellthief
12 Combat Expertise
15 Improved Feint
18 Disguise Spell


However, as feat weak as this build is, I've been reading up (primarily here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/26798961/Spellthief_Recommendations?pg=1 ) and am finding the build to be dangerously prone to not making a difference.

Help??

[Keld Denar]

Its not THAT bad, but your feat selections are pretty weak. Quickdraw + Flick of the Wrist is mostly rendered irrelevant by other means of gaining SA (such as flanking, being Invisible/hiding, casting Grease, etc). A better combo would be Songs of the Heart (ECS) + Melodic Casting. That lets you maintain bard songs while casting spells and makes your music that much stronger. Also, the spell Inspirational Boost and the item Badge of Valor from the Spell Compendium and Magic Item Compendium respectively will further boost your Inspire Courage powah to a respectable level even at low levels. Also, your last 3 feats are rather...meh. Improved Feint is bad, since you have to be in melee, and if you are in melee you'll want magical protections like Improved Invisibility or Blinking, and if you have either of those, you'll already qualify for SA. Plus, you can't full attack and feint, so you'd be down to 1 attack per round like that, which is NOT worth it. Disguise Spell is...eh...there is a skill trick in Complete Scoundrel that does nearly the same thing for MUCH less cost 1/encounter.

If I could propose one SMALL change, swap from ST16/Bard4 to Bard16/ST4. With MST and ST4, you'll be able to use foe's magic against them, your slightly stronger bardic magic being a better focus. Alternatively, if you want a nearly identical character with a LARGE power boost, integrate some Sublime Chord into your build. Bard7/ST3/SubChord2/UnseenSeer8 is pretty straightforward, and contains a fair number of elements from your old build (but gets 9th level Sublime Chord casting). If you want to work in that 4th ST level, you could use an early entry tecnique like Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell or just Sanctum Spell, allowing you to build something like Bard4/Spelltheif4/Paladin2/SublimeChord2/UnseenSeer8 with the Pally of Freedom varient from UA (or just more Spelltheif or Bard instead). Master Spellthief does some rather...silly things to your caster level when you have 2 caster classes stacked on Sublime Chord. You're CL at level 20 for Sublime Chord will be like, 26, if I did my math right, or 30 if you swap the 2 Pally levels for either Bard or Spelltheif. Its a stacking thing between SC and MST that kinda gets...wierd.

[Graha013]

My only concern with all of that (second part) is that it goes pretty much over my head as far as a player goes. I guess to break it down for me as a knowledgeable yet inexperienced player would be as follows:

Feat wise - leave Weapon Finesse, drop QD and FotW and add Song of the Heart and Melodic Casting..

I had already started thinking about changing the last three feats, perhaps to add Two weapon fighting, point blank shot, and rapid shot - just as ways to add the number of sneak attacks (not neccessarily improve sneak attacks), and to be able to do them at range.

Class builds I'll tackle later since I'm only able to start this character at 4..

[Keld Denar]

Take a look at Complete Arcane for the Sublime Chord class. Its kinda a wierd class. You can't get into it before level 11 (due to the skill prereqs, barring some SERIOUS shananananananananigans), and the class itself isn't THAT good, feature wise, but has a rather unique set of spellcasting. Its intended to be a continuation of bardic casting that basically turns a Bard into a Sorcerer-1 with slightly fewer spells/day. It requires the ability to cast 3rd level spells, but that is VERY easy to fake. That means that as long as you get 2nd level spells in 10 levels, you can start it by level 11. Well, 2nd level spells means either 4 levels in Bard (minimum), or 8th level in Spellthief.

To keep from having high level spells at a low CL, Sublime Chord has a wierd clause in it basically states "add up your CL in all other classes you had before entering SC, then add your SC level to that, and that is your CL". So, you take your CL for Bard and your CL for Spellthief, add them together, and add your Sublime Chord CL. Pretty straightforward, right?

Now, the really funny part is what happens to your CL when you have Master Spellthief. MST adds together your levels in ST and your levels in other Arcane casting classes together to get your CL for each. So if you were a Bard4/Spellthief4 your CL for each class would be 8. This gets really wierd when you start adding in Sublime Chord levels, since you can actually add them in twice (and Bard/ST levels twice). So if you were a Bard5/ST5, your CL in both would be 10, right? So when you add in your first level of Sublime Chord, your Bard and Spellthief CLs are both 11 (5 + 5 + 1). That means that your Sublime Chord CL is 23 (11 + 11 + 1). When you take another SC level, your CL for Bard and ST will be 12 each respectively (5 + 5 + 2), and your SC CL will be 26. That means your CL is going up 3 every time you take another SC level (or effective SC level, since you can progress SC with any other arcane casting PrC like Unseen Seer (CMage).

But thats probably a little more high Op than you are looking for. What did you think of my suggestion for switching ST and Bard around for 16 Bard/ 4 ST?

EDIT: You have a quote in your sig from me that I don't remember saying...do you remember where/when that is from? I really don't like saying that phrase, which makes it surprising that it appears in your sig.

[Person_Man]

I would suggest dumping all of your Bard OR all but one level of your Spellthief.

Spellthief 1/Any Arcane Class X with the Master Spellthief feat is useful for the Skills, Sneak Attack, (for Staggering Strike and Craven feats) and the ability to drain away (but not use) arcane spells from your enemies.

Spellthief 20 is also a fun and playable build that depends heavily on partying with the right people. If you have a Warlock, Dragonfire Adept, and/or casters with spare spells, it's easy to borrow from them to buff yourself as needed.

Also, your feat selection is fairly weak. Consider the above feats, plus Snowflake Wardance, Dragonfire Inspiration, Words of Creation, Doomspeak, and anything that adds extra attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595).

[gallagher]

i do not have much to add, but as my favorite class is spellthief, i felt i must post in this.

spellthief is odd in that its main class feature can be abused with only a 1 level dip in spellthief. i would still say go spellthief 2 so you can steal buffs, but after that you will benefit greatly from going bard->sublime chord->unseen seer.

you will still have all of the flavor, but you will not become redundant at later levels. in fact, you are actually quite good at what you do. if you started this game with a higher ECL, you would take over as the party arcanist as well as being the skill monkey.

[Keld Denar]

I dunno, Spellthief4 gets the ability to use spell energy to power your own spells. That tacked onto Sublime Chord to get the higher level spells is actually kinda sexy. Stab someone, steal their spell energy, and use it to power your own attack spells.

Also, if you are gonna be doing ANY spellthieving, I highly highly highly recommend you look into the spell Cloud of Knives. Its basically a FREE sneak attack every round after you cast it, assuming you qualify for SA (Greater Invis or Blinking work really well). Free damage is the best kind, and no matter how many times you are attacking in a round, more attacks are better. Spellthieves along can't get Cloud of Knives (except via wand, which isn't really that good due to the low duration), but CoK appears on the Bard list where it is SOLID GOLD. Just sayin.

[Graha013]

EDIT: You have a quote in your sig from me that I don't remember saying...do you remember where/when that is from? I really don't like saying that phrase, which makes it surprising that it appears in your sig.

It was either in the 'we can build it, we have the core books' thread or in my earlier build help thread request, one or the other.


The switch to 16 bard/4 ST is interesting, but I'm kind of hooked on making the character with a role of thwarting caster plans and throwing it back in their face. We have a warlock and a sorc, so spell borrowing will be very possible. The bard levels are in for utility and some spellcasting flexibilty.

[Keld Denar]

Trust us...you'll get much more spellcaster killery and versatility from spellcasting than the lack there of. ST has spellcasting, but its rather stunted and pitiful. Bardic casting is going to help you out a LOT more. Spellcasting is just that awesome. Trust us.

If you do stick with your build as built, try to get at least a +4 Inspire Courage ASAP. This'll be the biggest part of keeping your character out of the "dangerously prone to not making a difference" area. Even if you don't go with Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic), giving all of your allies a +4 bonus to hit and damage is HUGE, and not even really that hard. Just your base level 1 IC, +1 for Songs of the Heart (requires 3 levels of Bard due to needing Inspire Competanace) +1 for the Inspirational Boost spell +1 for the Badge of Valor item (its DIRT cheap). Thats a +4 song right there. Later in life, maybe pick up a Vest of Legends which gives you a +5 effective level boost for your music (which'll give you effectively 9th level music, or a +2 Inspire Courage) for a total of +5 Inspire Courage with only 4 levels in Bard. Dragonfire Inspiration can convert that +5 to hit and damage into +5d6 fire damage PER HIT, which is a LOT of damage. It might be a bit too much for your DM, though, so if you are aiming to stay low op, it might be best to avoid DFI.

Anyway, you mentioned starting at Bard2/ST2. I'd actually change that to Bard3/ST1, in that order. That sets your opening feats to:

1 Melodic Casting
H Extra Music
3 Songs of the Heart
6 Master Spellthief
etc etc etc.

That'll really get you going to a good start and keep you useful up through mid levels when your ST abilities start to really kick in.

EDIT again: I looked in threads you've started (all 4 of them) and I never said that...and I don't post in the "we can build it" thread. Now I'm really curious. A quick search of the forum doesn't show much (because it doesn't recognise you or win), and a google search shows TOO much. Blah.

[gallagher]

while keld's last post is absolutely spot on (as per usual) i would like to debate this posts' first paragraph, and then discuss its second paragraph.

I dunno, Spellthief4 gets the ability to use spell energy to power your own spells. That tacked onto Sublime Chord to get the higher level spells is actually kinda sexy. Stab someone, steal their spell energy, and use it to power your own attack spells.

Also, if you are gonna be doing ANY spellthieving, I highly highly highly recommend you look into the spell Cloud of Knives. Its basically a FREE sneak attack every round after you cast it, assuming you qualify for SA (Greater Invis or Blinking work really well). Free damage is the best kind, and no matter how many times you are attacking in a round, more attacks are better. Spellthieves along can't get Cloud of Knives (except via wand, which isn't really that good due to the low duration), but CoK appears on the Bard list where it is SOLID GOLD. Just sayin.

while spellthief 4 is a nice way to overcome SC's fewer spells, it isnt necessary. it helps tremendously when you are a single-classed spellthief, and is still a good thing to have (because from personal experience, it is really easy to run out of spells), the focus of his build isnt necessarily casting spells. its just part of the plan. i still feel that it would be better served to fit in 2 more levels of unseen seer, or possibly open up more PRC options.

and with cloud of knives being a part of the plan, bards get one other really nice option. you remember feinting, and how it is based on bluffing? tada, bards get glibness. unfortunately, you need 7 levels of bard, but with ST2/Bard7/SC1/USS10, you get a lot out of the build, and get glibness as a spell, and not just on a wand.

not only can you feint everyone, but speaking is a free action. you can feint and then tell them that you didnt hit them. it has no real effect on battle, but it is that extra bit of funny that fits a spellthief/bard, charisma-loaded, super fun character.

also, just for sillies, you should put ranks into perform (mime). you can now inspire courage while silenced.

[gallagher]

also, a little off topic, but i too have a KD quote in my sig.

i think it is going to be trendy soon enough

[gorfnab]

There is a Spellthief variant called Trickster in Dragon #353 that gives Spellthief Bard based casting. With that in mind you could easily go Spellthief 9/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Unseen Seer 8.

[Graha013]

EDIT again: I looked in threads you've started (all 4 of them) and I never said that...and I don't post in the "we can build it" thread. Now I'm really curious. A quick search of the forum doesn't show much (because it doesn't recognise you or win), and a google search shows TOO much. Blah.

Well, I'd look in the threads YOU'VE started and there are 50 pages of em, so I'm not....but I promise you said it. You helped me out with that build and I was like, I'm gonna honor this guy! And thus... also gallagher's quote of you, however, made me laugh out loud. And I got it right off, too. I'm such a nerd.



Anyways, I like everything that I'm hearing. I've got the balls enough (and more experience than my DM) to try the perform mime thing. See how that goes - especially since this is a maritime based campaign, so there may well be some underwater performing in hand.

One guy did hit it on the head that the spellcasting isn't what makes this character so much, it's just a role he can play. I think it almost points more to the fact that I should just go straight ST instead of multiclassing as adding bard kind of dilutes the build (not detrimental, it just makes spellthief less important in the build because bard has so much more that can make it useful within the build than spellthief does..) Does that make sense?

[gallagher]

wait wait wait... this is a sea-based campaign??

that should have been detailed in the start, for now you open up a whole new branch of DND that most dont get to explore, and for which i have better advice than before.

disregard the perform (mime). what you need is to obtain a familiar, get an aquatic based one, and get perform (synchronized swimming).

if anything, you will draw all the fire away from your teammates as everyone focuses on stopping you.

[Ernir]

Keld and Graha, the "win D&D" post is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11264126&postcount=8)

[Graha013]

Nicely found Ernir. I knew I wasn't that crazy.

[Graha013]

Where can I find the Vest of legends? not in magic item compendium..

[Fax Celestis]

Of note: You could take the Trickster spellthief variant (from some Dragon mag) and get the best of both worlds as straight spellthief.

[Keld Denar]

Vest of Legends is in the DMGII.

[Piggy Knowles]

I'm not sure if there are any amphibious gnome variants, but if so, or if you can get it approved for another race, Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone) would make a very strong finish for Spellthief in this campaign.

A Spellthief/Shadowcraft Mage would have a couple of things going for it...

1. It offers a concealment effect in shadowy areas, which is pretty nice if you're planning on spending any significant portion of the campaign underwater.

2. You would have the ability to convert your stolen spells into heightened Silent Images, which in turn could mimic any conjuration/evocation spell. You would essentially be taking the Spellthief and giving it fantastic flexibility.

Without early entry tricks, it will be a little later in the game before you actually qualify for Shadowcraft Mage, but that actually works out, because in my experience, it's the mid to high levels that Spellthief starts to need a boost to keep up.

My other typical recommendation for Spellthieves (Earth Dreamer) is less useful for a sea-based campaign. But short of going full caster, it's hard to do much better than a Spellthief 9/Mindbender 1/Earth Dreamer 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5.

[gorfnab]

Of note: You could take the Trickster spellthief variant (from some Dragon mag) and get the best of both worlds as straight spellthief.
Already mentioned it.

There is a Spellthief variant called Trickster in Dragon #353 that gives Spellthief Bard based casting. With that in mind you could easily go Spellthief 9/ Bard 1/ Sublime Chord 2/ Unseen Seer 8.

[Graha013]

So ran the first session and, as you predicted, the Spellthief aspect of the character didn't so much come into play as much as the Bard did. I did run it as a 2/2 build because the DM was very interested in seeing the Spellthief play out, but he gave me no mages to contend with.

In the beginning, my character and the leader of our group were alone - me being introduced, he being sent off on a side mission since he was absent at the last session. The main party was back on our ship after massacreing a marketplace. Because of their adventure, we ran into 10-12 groups of about 4-5 foes apiece in hunting parties searching for them. At the climax we managed to break through the gathering of about 30 to make it to our group and out run all but their elite fighters. We faced about 8 of them and it literally was make it or break it for inspire courage. With the badge of valor and songs of the heart, I gave the group all an additional +3hit/+3dam and suddenly all of our near misses were striking. Granted the DM was rolling fairly poorly, but we made pretty good on our escape.


Appreciate all the help. I was gifted with a set of 'pipes of pain' which in reading will probably be more trouble than they are worth, so off to the pawn shop they go..