Need some Wish help

[Corsair420]

Right so, my DM uses wishes a little differently then the way the book says, my DM allows you to affect more or less anything related to you character, whether this is increasing your characters level or increasing spell DC whatever you can think of... as long as you phrase it right.

In my DMs world you have to phrase your wishes as perfectly as you can to avoid any mishaps and he will make something happen if theres even the slightest error he sees, for example, a party member made a wish for himself and another party member to have enough experience to be 21st level(epic level), but because they didn't specify only themselves 5 21st level psionic children were spawned into existence to fight against us(we were an evil aligned party) and the one good aligned character in the game also became 21st level.

Another example of ways he's screwed the party in the past, I personally wished for a specific magical item, but because I wasn't specific enough in my description, it was given to another person on the opposite side of the world with the same name as me...

and a final example of ways he's screwed players is one player didn't specify that he wanted his wish to apply whenever he traveled to different planes, so we went to the ethereal plane and lost all the power he had gained.

So, I have a plan that will give me at least 2 wishes, possibly infinite but I doubt my DM would let me do it more then once. My character is starting off as an 11th level human cleric with the War and either the Death or Knowledge domain(possibly a different one if I can find one I like, I'm a cleric of my own personal cause not of a specific deity). My plan is to use my knowledge of the planes to travel to the Infernal Battlefields of Archeron and try to recruit as many of the armies as I can and then travel back to the material plane to try and unite it under my singular rule(in my DMs world there was been constant war for the last 60 some odd years). So I need to use my 2 wishes (3rd being used for something very specific) to help me accomplish this goal.

I'm thinking I want to use my first wish to gain more levels to go to about 24th level, I don't want to go to far past the party, which is composed mostly of monster races, and Ogre, Halfling Wererat, and a Decanter Goblin, so ECLs have a big range. My 2nd wish I'm not 100% what I want to use it for yet, either a higher DC for all my spells, or more spells in general.

The kind of format needed for the wishes is pretty precise:

I wish for *insert wish here* with this soul, in whatever body it may possess, on any plane I might currently be occupying, while not effecting any other being etc. etc. being as specific as possible

so any help phrasing these wishes so my DM can't screw me over would be greatly appreciated.

[Kyouhen]

Honestly? Your DM gave an item you wished for to someone on the other side of the planet that conveniently shares a name with you. I'd probably just forget about wishes completely, as this is never going to end well for you no matter how clever you try to be.

[Douglas]

Are you allowed to use game mechanics terms in your Wishes? For example, is "I wish to be level 21" a valid (though obviously far from untwistable) Wish, or do you have to come up with some way of expressing that without using the term "level" and number 21?

[opticalshadow]

see theres a prob lem here i see dms do that yours is.

the fun of wish is its useally granted by a force that takes literal meanings, or evil creatures who like to within your own words screw you, but what your dm is doing is instead of doing that, hes looking for specific way to screw you. now the 21st level exp one might fly, but te item one, thats just a unclever dm just trying to deny you having a wish spell.


id honestly talk with him, and if he cant maturaly handle the use of the spell in a fun or fair manner, just ignore it totally.

[Corsair420]

the reason he tries to screw people who use wish is because in his world it can be a comepletly game breaking spell, so if your going to use it you have to be extremely careful, I like to think of it like the Wishmaster, you get what you want but you'll regret it in the long run if your not careful. A player once wished fro dragons to not exist, we had to run a totally separate campaign to fix it.

As for using terms like "level" and "21" I don't know, when the wish was made the first time he used "Enough experience to be 21st level" I believe so, the terms are usable but the more detailed the better.

And to you others, I asked for help not your opinion about how much of a **** my DM is, part of the fun is getting away with casting a wish without to much trouble coming back at you, the item given to someone else was the first time I had ever used a wish and he hadn't told me about how he handles them because I had been playing D&D for about 3 or 4 months, and with the other wish, the guy had been playing for a month with me(i've been playing for about 7 years now) and the DM helping a lot, we at least warned him about the format which was more then I got.

i'm not trying to be rude, telling me not to deal with it is not help it's just annoying

[Douglas]

"I wish for the caster of this Wish spell, hereafter in this Wish referred to as 'the Wisher' without any other meaning of the phrase 'the Wisher' being used in this Wish, to immediately and irrevocably gain enough experience to be level 24, to be spent as the Wisher chooses, at no cost or effort other than the 9th level spell slot spent to cast Wish, independent of all past, present, or future changes in circumstances, without hindering the Wisher's ability to gain additional experience, and without this Wish directly causing anything other than a change in the amount of experience the Wisher has."

The secret to untwistable Wishing is to be as specific as possible with regard to what you do want, and at the same time be as general as possible with regard to what you don't want. Forbidding a long list of things is just asking for the DM to find something not on your list. Of course, if your DM decides partial fulfillment is a possibility then even that can fail. In that case, just give up, any limiting clause you put in might be declared to be part of the Wish that doesn't get fulfilled.

On second thought, phrasing it as a giant run-on sentence means it's probably possible to intentionally screw up the parsing in order to misinterpret it. Does it have to be a single sentence?

[King Atticus]

"I wish for the caster of this Wish spell, hereafter in this Wish referred to as 'the Wisher' without any other meaning of the phrase 'the Wisher' being used in this Wish, to immediately and irrevocably gain enough experience to be level 24, to be spent as the Wisher chooses, at no cost or effort other than the 9th level spell slot spent to cast Wish, independent of all past, present, or future changes in circumstances, without hindering the Wisher's ability to gain additional experience, and without this Wish directly causing anything other than a change in the amount of experience the Wisher has."

That is some truely impressive epic level lawyering right there. RESPECT :smallbiggrin:

[opticalshadow]

the reason he tries to screw people who use wish is because in his world it can be a comepletly game breaking spell, so if your going to use it you have to be extremely careful, I like to think of it like the Wishmaster, you get what you want but you'll regret it in the long run if your not careful. A player once wished fro dragons to not exist, we had to run a totally separate campaign to fix it.

As for using terms like "level" and "21" I don't know, when the wish was made the first time he used "Enough experience to be 21st level" I believe so, the terms are usable but the more detailed the better.

And to you others, I asked for help not your opinion about how much of a **** my DM is, part of the fun is getting away with casting a wish without to much trouble coming back at you, the item given to someone else was the first time I had ever used a wish and he hadn't told me about how he handles them because I had been playing D&D for about 3 or 4 months, and with the other wish, the guy had been playing for a month with me(i've been playing for about 7 years now) and the DM helping a lot, we at least warned him about the format which was more then I got.

i'm not trying to be rude, telling me not to deal with it is not help it's just annoying

we didnt tell you not to deal with it, i told you to speak with your dm about what he truthfully intends to grant. because he sounded like a dm that uses the spell specifcally to screw the player, not to actually use the spell, and thats a very careful line to walk. at no point did i say not use the spell, just to speak with your dm and find out what hes honestly going to do, the same thing i ask every dm before playing when theres a class i want to use. i want to make sure hes ok with what im doing, because theres nothing worse then spending yout whole career working on somethign for him to say later "ehhhh no, as it turns out you cant put zombies in a bag of holding, dispite the fact i have no reason other then my own for doing so)


i say it, because i have had plenty of dm's whom no matter how hard you tried to be specific, they would find some way to screw over players, and our wishes are rarely outlandish (because thats the reason most dm's hate the spell) normally for a specific item (not extream but there are some exspencive items i cant always afford when offered a wish spell)

if your dm is truely going to grant you spells, then yes use a long paragraph snetence to specify your entry to the T, but only if he actually intends on granting things by doing so, because even if you do, it becomes painfully easy to abuse the spell, and some dm's will still insist on loop holes.

[OracleofSilence]

if it won't work for constitutional law, don't take your chances with that sorta wish. read it. reread it. find your own mistakes. then fix it. then do the same. once it feels like yoru brain is running out of your ears from boredom, you should give it to another player to do the same. once it gets back to you. it should work.

[opticalshadow]

if it won't work for constitutional law, don't take your chances with that sorta wish. read it. reread it. find your own mistakes. then fix it. then do the same. once it feels like yoru brain is running out of your ears from boredom, you should give it to another player to do the same. once it gets back to you. it should work.

it might also be a good idea to avoid certian words when wishing. some dm's may not grant wishes asking for exp or levels because they dont exsist as in game things (neither do hit die) you may have to use wording describign in game a gain in power, such as being powerful enough to cast certial spells or something (never really asked for exp)

[OracleofSilence]

such as being powerful enough to cast certial spells or something

possibly a bad idea. the dm could interpret that this means you become an NPC until you gain enough XP fo those spells. alternatively, he could simply state that you could cast these spells if...

that falls under the loose wording issue. if you wanted to do that, just deal with it, and focus on that specific benifits, general forbearance's.

[opticalshadow]

possibly a bad idea. the dm could interpret that this means you become an NPC until you gain enough XP fo those spells. alternatively, he could simply state that you could cast these spells if...

that falls under the loose wording issue. if you wanted to do that, just deal with it, and focus on that specific benifits, general forbearance's.

yeah, liek i said ive never delt with wishing for levels, so im unsure exactly how you might go about wording it in game, im unsure how many dms play like this but i do know that technically its not something you could use in game.

[Aharon]

Copied from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158443) thread:


I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.

in a verb-last variant of Modron.
It's the best attempt at doing that I've ever seen, but there are still objections:
1) I doubt that is meant to be a description of a language in Turing's sense. Those are two distinct words used to describe the language. It is precise, and it is mathematical. Only in the context of mathematics, computer science and linguistics do these words have the meaning that would make your approach possible (Oxford Dictionary definitions of precise and mathematical show that both words can have lots of meanings).
2) even if it is a mathematically precise language, what you use is a verb last variant, which might not be what the modrons use, and thus might not be modron. You would have to ask your DM to clarify if they use a verb last language. If they don't, you might invent a variant of modron that does that, but there are no rules in the game for doing that (I am aware that it is rather easy, but still, it's not in the rules).
3) if you work on the idea that the words mathematical and precise used to define the modron language, you should also assume that the word "partial" in the description of the wish spell is meant mathematically, in which case "partial" includes the subset "nothing". So the best case is you cast the spell, get nothing and don't get screwed. That seems to be the most preferrable outcome for this spell if you're working with your DM, btw.:smallwink:

Out of curiousity: Have there ever been any wishes that were worded in a way that satisfied him, so that he didn't try to screw the user?

[The Random NPC]

Technically, you can only gain enough exp to level once and remain one point from the next level per session. But if you just say you want to be level 24, the DM could fill the levels with Commoner...

[Kyouhen]

Copied from this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158443) thread:


I wish that at no point, neither during or after, in my personal time-stream, which can no longer be or have ever been interfered with, including any case that would cause it to differ from absolute time (more than it already does) or to not continue at a constant rate, can any effect or event (including the null event) that I, in my current state of mind (free from any and all magical, psionic, or other form (including mundane) of enchantment or compulsion effect) would not deem, given absolute knowledge, to be beneficial to me or that I would not, in the same state and under the same conditions, prefer the occurrence of that event to the occurrence of any other event, including the null, want to occur to me, have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all, and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.

in a verb-last variant of Modron.
It's the best attempt at doing that I've ever seen, but there are still objections:
1) I doubt that is meant to be a description of a language in Turing's sense. Those are two distinct words used to describe the language. It is precise, and it is mathematical. Only in the context of mathematics, computer science and linguistics do these words have the meaning that would make your approach possible (Oxford Dictionary definitions of precise and mathematical show that both words can have lots of meanings).
2) even if it is a mathematically precise language, what you use is a verb last variant, which might not be what the modrons use, and thus might not be modron. You would have to ask your DM to clarify if they use a verb last language. If they don't, you might invent a variant of modron that does that, but there are no rules in the game for doing that (I am aware that it is rather easy, but still, it's not in the rules).
3) if you work on the idea that the words mathematical and precise used to define the modron language, you should also assume that the word "partial" in the description of the wish spell is meant mathematically, in which case "partial" includes the subset "nothing". So the best case is you cast the spell, get nothing and don't get screwed. That seems to be the most preferrable outcome for this spell if you're working with your DM, btw.:smallwink:

Out of curiousity: Have there ever been any wishes that were worded in a way that satisfied him, so that he didn't try to screw the user?

So... It's a wish to let you know the exact results of all future wishes? Brilliant!

[only1doug]

So... It's a wish to let you know the exact results of all future wishes? Brilliant!

I interpreted it as an add on to any wish you choose to make, that allows you to hear how the GM interprets your wish and reject his method of resolving it if you don't like it (and still have the wish granted, in a different interpretation).

[Urpriest]

I'd wish for Wish to obey the rules in the book henceforth and retroactively. That, or to be the DM.

[PersonMan]

I'd wish for Wish to obey the rules in the book henceforth and retroactively. That, or to be the DM.

Of course, you'd have to specify which book, or you wouldn't really change anything with that.

This reminds me of the whole "you didn't wish to not be on fire" thing.

[Kyouhen]

I interpreted it as an add on to any wish you choose to make, that allows you to hear how the GM interprets your wish and reject his method of resolving it if you don't like it (and still have the wish granted, in a different interpretation).

Ah. Well either way, there's the solution to the OP's problem. Make a Wish that you'll know the exact results of all future wishes. Then keep changing the wording until you're happy with the result. :smalltongue:

[Corsair420]

Technically, you can only gain enough exp to level once and remain one point from the next level per session. But if you just say you want to be level 24, the DM could fill the levels with Commoner...

Thats why in the examples I mentioned "enough experience to be 24th level" because that is exactly the kind of thing he would do.



Out of curiousity: Have there ever been any wishes that were worded in a way that satisfied him, so that he didn't try to screw the user?

and yes the player who wished to be 21st level, had obtained a full 4 wishes from the Deck of Many Things. his 2nd wish he used to free me from being imprisoned in hell and having learned from his first 2 wishes (I was freed from hell but I was trapped as a sentient statue, I had a 5ft blindsense and I could fly at like 10ft a round, he used his 3rd wish to(at this point in the game he had become a demigod) successfully wish that the DC on his spells was 100 and he used his 4th wish to successfully make it so NO spells could ever effect him(yes this included healing spells but he didn't care) and it did include any spells he tried to cast on himself.

Just an FYI on my DM, he is heavy into politics and what not, so hes about as close to a lawyer as you can get without taking the Bar exam more or less, and as I said the reason he tries to screw you over is to make sure your using the game breaking spell responsibly(relatively) and he will also attempt to twist it to balance things back out, like with 5 epic level psions being spawned into existence to face us. We were an exceptionally powerful evil party, I was a 15 or 16th level CE Hellfire Warlock that escaped from hell completely insane who killed cause he was bored(also my best character from an RP perspective i've ever had, so much fun with him), we had a CE 21st level barbarian who killed for the sake of killing(I think he was tiefling or human can't remember), we had a NE half-dragon half-drow ninja/reaping mauler who actually became a black dragon due to failing his will save vs the black dragon orb... which he stole from me... and we had a 40th level NE Cleric/Rogue/Black Flame Zealot. WE had a 5th guy but he was new and didn't understand the game despite all our help so his characters kept dying...

As for the wish to know the result of all future wishes, that could be a possibility but that depends on if the DM lets me use my attempt at getting unlimited wishes, I assume he'll limit it as a whole after I use it once so I will only have 3 wishes max if he bans it, 2 if he doesn't(I don't want to reveal the details but 2 wishes at a time).

Oh and I just thought of what I want for my 2nd wish but i'm not sure how to phrase the description of the item exactly; I want to wish for an indestructible bag of holding that will ALWAYS return to me the instant it leaves my person, filled with a never-ending supply of copper, silver, gold and platinum pieces with the ability to pull out the exact amount of money I desire out at any time I want.

Something about that long string seems off to me and would allow him to screw me over but I can't place it, that is just the description of hte item I want not the entire wish btw.

[rainstorm]

Wish that your next wish will go as intended for you, then make another wish :D

[Aharon]

@Kyouhen
Actually, the above wish amounts to "I wish to become invulnerable": Leaving out some of the specifications, it reads as

"I wish that at no point can any non-beneficial effect or event have any effect on me or occur in any fashion at all."

The rest of the clauses were added to make it so this doesn't screw you (i.e., becoming a statue, be removed from the time stream, and so on).


@Corsair
Well, than the above, just adding your actual wish, sounds like the kind of thing you want:

I wish for an indestructible bag of holding that will always return to me the instant it leaves my person, filled with a never-ending supply of copper, silver, gold and platinum pieces with the ability to pull out the exact amount of money I desire out at any time I want and that in addition when this wish would be granted, I am first told exactly how the wish would be interpreted and executed in an unambiguous manner, in Modron, and asked for my approval - if approval is not granted, the entire wish must be re-granted, including this clause, with an interpretation distinct from any way this exact wish's granting has been proposed to me and denied by me, though no part of this process (including a null part, a waiting-for-action part, or the full part [the entirety of this wish's granting]) may take any amount of time to occur.

[Glimbur]

Wish that your next wish will go as intended for you, then make another wish :D

Then the wish will go as the DM intends, as you didn't specify whose intentions the wish follows.

I know you don't want to hear it, but it sounds like Wish isn't worth the trouble in this campaign.

[Corsair420]

i've been playing with DM for years, and I'm the most seasoned player in the group, it's worth it to try and screw him at his own game, that(at least for me) is what makes it fun, and that's why I'm going through all the trouble of posting it here and asking for help

[opticalshadow]

i've been playing with DM for years, and I'm the most seasoned player in the group, it's worth it to try and screw him at his own game, that(at least for me) is what makes it fun, and that's why I'm going through all the trouble of posting it here and asking for help

i understand that, i think every dnd player inevitably gets the "time to make the dm go grey with frustrsation" bug. its not always a big thing, but its always nice to just make the dm facepalm.

wish spells can be fun to do it, we use to wish for benign things that were just tedious, or set up a fairly complex series of events that led to a nightmare on his behalf, just because that last pitfall trap, or big nasty was a bit harsh. its good to have this back and forth.

the best results from a wish spell are the obscure ones, if you can wish for something that seems innocent enoug, he may let his guard down and grant it, then, use it against him.

[Corsair420]

well I always tell my DM the big picture of my plans, what I want to accomplish in the long run, so that way he can prepare for it but I never tell him the steps I plan to take to get there, the group of evil players we had razed the 2nd largest city in his world to the ground because we were bored and he hadn't planned anything for us(we had been playing for about 12 hours by this point). my Warlock can be linked to every major bad thing that has happened to his world in the last 40 years, I also salted the earth around the city when we were done and poisoned the wells, which 30 years after his death still effects the city.

We had to take a break from the evil group because we were starting to get way outlandishly powerful so he had us make a group of good guys(I became king of the largest group of humans) to fight our own bad guys. and even as an NPC I learned to hate my own character, in the long run only 2 of the evil party are still alive, one rules whats left of the city we razed to the ground and the other is trapped(to the best of our knowledge) in a forcecage, dimensionally anchored, and kept alive so he can't die and return to his demiplane(the demigod cleric/rogue/BFZ) all with permenancy cast on them

[Dragonsoul]

Ahem....

The entire remainder of this post (post to be defined as this current comment on this forum) that I've typed immediately following this sentence is to be interpreted as my wish in its entirety.

Whereas the granter of this wish grants it with the singular goal of fulfilling the wish in my best interests, as I would personally interpret those interests upon the final outcome of the unfolding of all consequences of the wish (as to be interpreted by my present state of mind as of the writing of this wish, and not any future state of mind that might come to pass as a result of the wish),

I, therefore, wish for an infinite number of wishes to be granted under the same best interest clause as this originating wish. Furthermore, these wishes can either be spent by me, or forfeited by me at any time, so as not to lock me in a hell of eternal consciousness where I am forced to spend eternity wishing for things.

If, and only if, the option of wishing for an infinite number of wishes is deemed to be an unacceptable wish, then the best interest clause remains in full effect, but the substantive wish then is changed to the wish that I was granted the power to grant wishes to myself, and that such power came with no restrictions, duties or obligations.

If, and only if, the previous two substantive wishes were deemed to be unacceptable wishes, then the best interest clause remains in full effect, but the substantive wish is then changed to the wish that I and all my current and future loved ones are to be granted extraordinarily long lives, and even immortality (but only if we deem it to be desirable, and then only so long as we continue to deem it to be desirable), and filled with pervasive exceptionally high levels of happiness, rationally and honestly come by, rather than a byproduct of delusion or any other artificial cause (excluding the mere fact of this wish).

If at any time I am unsatisfied by this wish, or would be unsatisfied by this wish but for a consequence of the wish that prevents me from being unsatisfied with the wish, then the wish and all its consequences will be retroactively revoked, and I will be given the option of rewriting the wish and having it granted anew, while being fully aware of the situation that caused the wish to relapse to this state.

fin

[Corsair420]

so far some good suggestions, I think I should be able to mix them together to get my wish right and then comepletly destroy his world with new lore , which is my goal, hes been building this world with numerous campaigns for about as long as I've known him, it has its own pantheon complete with about 2 pages front and back of gods that covers just about anything a god can cover. so far I've already changed a lot of it having my evil warlock who destroyed the 2nd largest city in the world and almost brought Asmodeous to the mortal plane(among other things) and my Marshall/Legendary Leader/Vassal of Bahamut who became the King of man(think aragorn from LOTR) in the end I became a Risen Martyr(BOED) and now hes an NPC known as the Deathless King(given that he gained the deathless subtype form the risen martyr.

[Psyren]

This Wish is Bad News.

That is all