Stealing rules! >_<

[Cipher Stars]

Gah! by the nine hells, searching is useless for this. Nothing pulls up anything!

Where are rules on how to handle/deal with and perform acts of thievery!???

[Vladislav]

Do you mean this:


If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

[SiuiS]

What tends to get glossed over is that while stealing is easy, stealing and not getting caught is hard.

Beat the DC (generally 20) and you filch an item from the person. They then get to try and beat your roll to see you do it.

You could also go into specifics, trying to make spot checks or search checks to find out where a certain item is and then take it, but that's technically house rule territory.

[Cipher Stars]

Do you mean this:

Thats nothing but mere pickpocketing.

I mean theft, to obtain behind the counter wares and the like.

[Coidzor]

Thats nothing but mere pickpocketing.

I mean theft, to obtain behind the counter wares and the like.
basically just a series of skill checks.

open lock to get into places and safes
disable device to disarm alarms and bypass security measures
hide to not be seen
move silently to not be heard
search to find where safes and such are hidden
spot as appropriate
listen to see if they hear anyone stirring or coming

[Big Fau]

Thats nothing but mere pickpocketing.

I mean theft, to obtain behind the counter wares and the like.

In front of the person guarding them? Same rules.


When no one is looking? Use Move Silently.

[Jack_Simth]

Thats nothing but mere pickpocketing.

I mean theft, to obtain behind the counter wares and the like.
That would depend completely on how things were set up at the store you're targeting - ergo, no hard and fast rules. In general, it'd be a series of skill checks... and I might point out that if it were a simple matter, almost no merchant would still be in business.

So the person you need to ask is your DM.

[Cipher Stars]

basically just a series of skill checks.

open lock to get into places and safes
disable device to disarm alarms and bypass security measures
hide to not be seen
move silently to not be heard
search to find where safes and such are hidden
spot as appropriate
listen to see if they hear anyone stirring or coming
No way, to simple...

That would depend completely on how things were set up at the store you're targeting - ergo, no hard and fast rules. In general, it'd be a series of skill checks... and I might point out that if it were a simple matter, almost no merchant would still be in business.

So the person you need to ask is your DM.

... I am the DM.
I was just wondering, since making your own seems to have no benefit over buying. But it seems stealing is the real only way to go.

[Jack_Simth]

... I am the DM.
I was just wondering, since making your own seems to have no benefit over buying. But it seems stealing is the real only way to go.
That then makes things simpler. Picture a store. Where is it? What's the area like? How is it manned? Has theft been attempted before? Who was doing the stealing (if any)? What resources is the merchant willing to expend to prevent theft?

Basically, draw up the situation, think of a few things that would be done to make theft difficult, then let your players decide how to approach it.

[Coidzor]

It's basically like a dungeon except it's a shop instead of a dungeon.

[Fiery Diamond]

It's basically like a dungeon except it's a shop instead of a dungeon.

I like this explanation.

[King Atticus]

Do you mean this:

Originally Posted by SRD

If you try to take something from another creature, you must make a DC 20 Sleight of Hand check to obtain it. The opponent makes a Spot check to detect the attempt, opposed by the same Sleight of Hand check result you achieved when you tried to grab the item. An opponent who succeeds on this check notices the attempt, regardless of whether you got the item.

I was actually asking about this today. This is pick-pocketing-ish rules, but would it still be the same DC (+VS spot) to do something a little more blatent? I'm playing a really charasmatic kobold thief type who is drawn magpie-like to shiny baubles. If I were to engage someone in conversation, shake their hand upon introduction and attempt to slide the ring off their finger. Would it still just be DC 20 plus the spot attempt? Or would it go up for being so brazen?

[OracleofSilence]

i agree. and really, who would need static rules for that? once they can realistically make the skill checks, they can avoid the skill checks all together. i would suggest that it should be more roleplayed then not. skill checks should also, in my opinion, be avoidable if the plan of entry and theft is cunning enough.

[Vladislav]

I was actually asking about this today. This is pick-pocketing-ish rules, but would it still be the same DC (+VS spot) to do something a little more blatent? I'm playing a really charasmatic kobold thief type who is drawn magpie-like to shiny baubles. If I were to engage someone in conversation, shake their hand upon introduction and attempt to slide the ring off their finger. Would it still just be DC 20 plus the spot attempt? Or would it go up for being so brazen?Unfortunately, such situations are poorly modeled in the rules-as-written. You have basically three choices:

1. Work with your DM to homebrew your own set of Sleight of Hand situational modifiers.
2. Have the DM to make a judgement call in each specific situation.
3. Give up on realism, and work within the existing simplistic rules.

[Hunter Killer]

Personally, I think you need a wide range of skills to be a good burglar, so the various rules for individual skills work perfectly. I vote with Coidzor.

If you want to cut it down to one skill, then maybe use Sleight of Hand with environmental modifiers to both the base DC to grab the item and the opposed Spot check. You could do something like:

+10 DC for an item in an open-able case
+10 DC for counter attendant
+5 DC for each guard 10' away
+2 DC for each inattentive customer or guard over 10' away
-2 for small items
-5 for very small items
etc....

-2 to opponent's Spot if there's some small distraction or some obscuring
-5 to opponent's Spot if there's some large distraction
-10 if there's a large obstruction to vision
etc....

These are just fast a loose ideas... Again, I'd go with the multiple skill checks route instead, but toeachhisown.

[Kyberwulf]

i would make it a bluff attampt to distract everyone around you when you shake your marks hand.

then anyone who makes it against your bluff check gets a spot check to see your sleight of hand check

then Make your sleight of hand check

the DM can add +/- to the situation as he sees fit.

[kharmakazy]

Stealing things is easy. You can run into a bank and snatch hands full of money from the cashier. Not getting caught is a matter of sense motive and spot checks on the part of the mark.

Seriously. Just grab something not held by a person and run away, easy peasy.

[Zaq]

Of course, you realize that this opens a lot of doors for players to feel like they can just smash-n-grab anything they want. I don't DM frequently, but in my games (and, I believe, in the games my DM runs, but we've never wanted to test it), magic item shops have some basic wards and defenses set up (to keep out two-bit thieves, mostly), but the real defense comes from unspoken intimidation.

See, anyone who owns a magic item shop is clearly in contact with at least one (probably several) casters possessed of sufficient time and power to make magic items. These casters, for whatever reason, have an interest in selling their magic items . . . which means that they have a very vested interest in making sure that nobody thinks that they can get away with robbing these stores. So if you steal anything bigger than a potion (and honestly, depending on the store, if you even steal that), you're very likely to have one or more very angry and very powerful casters (who have, I might add, a way to trace you, given that they know what items you've got) who are looking to make a very public example of you.

This may not be the way you want to run your games, but if you want to have WBL be anything more than a joke (bending it a little? Go for it. Free access to the vault of Mungo's Magnificent Magic Mart? Ha.), be aware that you really can't make stealing too easy.

If that's the kind of game you want to run, of course, go for it, but I'm just saying that this could lead to some weird unintended consequences. (Also, you might end up with several players, or indeed an entire group, optimized just for stealing . . . which might make for a fun campaign, but you'd have to be aware that it could happen.)

Of course, isn't killing things and taking their stuff tomb raiding adventuring already just a specialized form of stealing? Eh, depends who's asking.

A tangent about the OTHER reason people don't steal from shops in my games or my current DM's games:
OK, so magic items exist, which means they come from somewhere. Even the stupid ones (Trident of Fish Command? Really?) represent a caster spending time, gold, and (most importantly) XP to create them. If you posit that a lot of magic items exist, you have to posit a source for them, which means you need a reason for a lot of casters to be burning XP on very silly stuff.

Enter the githyanki.

The githyanki lich-queen, you will recall, hunts down and devours any githyanki who rises above 16th level. Of course, being the marauding raiders they are, githyanki aren't going to just go home and raise geraniums once they hit 16th level. If they're the kind of folks who would GET to 16th, they're not the kind of folks who would retire AT 16th. However, if they keep gaining XP after 16th, the clock's basically ticking.

So what's a 16th-level githyanki to do? They start crafting like mad. They burn off all the XP they can by making absolutely anything they can think of. A horn that makes barbarian constructs once a week? Sure. A staff full of spells chosen apparently at random? Pass the hammer. An overpriced barrel that can't hold a whole group and is useless by the time you can afford it? Already started on it. A bag that you can pull animals out of? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) I'll make a matching set! Sure, they COULD just cast spells with XP components, and some do, but not every githyanki is a spellcaster. Anyone can donate XP to item creation, though.

So now we know who's going to be after you if you think that you can just sneak off with that nice shield nobody would miss. Githyanki. High-level githyanki. Desperate high-level githyanki (they have to keep crafting so they don't die, which means they need to keep the raw materials flowing, which means they need to sell these random items they're making, which means THEY CAN'T HAVE YOU UNDERMINING THEIR RETAILERS). Time for a raiding party!

[Douglas]

A tangent about the OTHER reason people don't steal from shops in my games or my current DM's games:
OK, so magic items exist, which means they come from somewhere. Even the stupid ones (Trident of Fish Command? Really?) represent a caster spending time, gold, and (most importantly) XP to create them. If you posit that a lot of magic items exist, you have to posit a source for them, which means you need a reason for a lot of casters to be burning XP on very silly stuff.

Enter the githyanki.

The githyanki lich-queen, you will recall, hunts down and devours any githyanki who rises above 16th level. Of course, being the marauding raiders they are, githyanki aren't going to just go home and raise geraniums once they hit 16th level. If they're the kind of folks who would GET to 16th, they're not the kind of folks who would retire AT 16th. However, if they keep gaining XP after 16th, the clock's basically ticking.

So what's a 16th-level githyanki to do? They start crafting like mad. They burn off all the XP they can by making absolutely anything they can think of. A horn that makes barbarian constructs once a week? Sure. A staff full of spells chosen apparently at random? Pass the hammer. An overpriced barrel that can't hold a whole group and is useless by the time you can afford it? Already started on it. A bag that you can pull animals out of? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) I'll make a matching set! Sure, they COULD just cast spells with XP components, and some do, but not every githyanki is a spellcaster. Anyone can donate XP to item creation, though.

So now we know who's going to be after you if you think that you can just sneak off with that nice shield nobody would miss. Githyanki. High-level githyanki. Desperate high-level githyanki (they have to keep crafting so they don't die, which means they need to keep the raw materials flowing, which means they need to sell these random items they're making, which means THEY CAN'T HAVE YOU UNDERMINING THEIR RETAILERS). Time for a raiding party!
Wow. This explains so much.:smalleek:

Awesome explanation, I'd be tempted to steal it if I had a campaign in a world where it would fit.

[Telonius]

I was just wondering, since making your own seems to have no benefit over buying. But it seems stealing is the real only way to go.

IMO, looting a dead body is the best way to go. If you steal, the victim is still around to exact revenge, call the town guard, complain to the king, hire an investigator, contact Ye Olde Magick Shoppe Chamber of Commerce, post a "Reward!" poster at the local Inn as an adventuring hook, and so on.

EDIT: Also, remember: the PCs are not the only customers. The store has a Vorpal Greataxe on hand? That means somebody powerful enough to have something better is also a customer. And might be a bit upset that his good friend the shopkeeper has been robbed so brazenly.

[Big Fau]

I was just wondering, since making your own seems to have no benefit over buying. But it seems stealing is the real only way to go.

Making your own is actually very easy to do, and not nearly as harsh as it seems. Most newer players aren't going to do so because it costs XP, but it actually is better than buying it for some magic items.