Scout, Knight, Divine Bard, and..?

[Adamantrue]

I'm working on putting together a game for a group of mostly new players, and they asked me to make their characters for them, since they were intimidated by the rules. The lone experienced guy is open to play whatever is needed to round out the group, so I was able to cater to the new player's preference while working on them individually.

The premise is a sort of Colonization of the Americas, as I wanted them to be relatively familiar with the concepts involved. The Players are part of a new settlement that is being established. It is idealized, and simplified, and this particular group are on good terms with the native population.

I'm using a 25 Point Buy, and starting them at 3rd level.

Player A wanted to try out something with the pseudo-Native American flavor. We settled on Porqueño, the Halfling Scout that has been one of the key intermediaries to the settlers. I'm working him towards Spring Attack & Shot on the Run.

Player B insisted on a Knight, but I talked him into the Knight Variants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=177085) I posted, specifically the "Brutal Commander" for Power Attack Feats instead of Mounted Combat options, and multiclassing with Marshal using the Rallying Champion custom Feat posted in there a little down the lane. So, Antonius is a Human Power Attacking Sword & Board Knight 2/Marshal 1, and a respected officer in the militia.

Player C really liked the Cleric flavor, but liked the mechanics of the Bard (plus as a musician, liked that concept too). I thought a Divine Bard might be a good fit here, and he seemed happy with the compromise. Evan is a Human Divine Bard, though I'm trying to decide which ACFs would work best here.

Which leaves us with Player D. Its actually not a bad mix we have here already, so we may have more freedom when it comes to choices, but I don't want him to completely overshadow the newer players by picking Wizard or something, even if its only by accident.

I was considering having him pick Ranger, as that can let him hang alongside any of the other Players in their respective niches (if they need help) without really overshadowing them, but I'm not sure if Favored Enemy would of much use in this particular game.

What do people think I should suggest?

[Telonius]

Druid and Artificer come to mind immediately, thanks to the setting. (Druid to help out with the crops, Artificer to be the town blacksmith). But those would really run the risk of totally outshining the other class selections, especially since the player is more experienced and might build a more powerful character just out of habit.

For Player D, since he's more of an experienced player, what if he were playing somebody who's kind of "on the run" - that's the reason he's in the colony? CG Warlock, Rogue, or Beguiler could work. They'd also fill in as the party trapfinder and skillmonkey. Bard is an obvious Face, but if they need anything sneaky done he might lose a bit of focus.

[Hunter Killer]

Sounds like they could use a little more damage and some spellcasting. Maybe a Duskblade?

[Zonugal]

I think the party is missing a utility mage so a wizard or archivist could perhaps fit the role pretty well (have them be a man of the government, maybe a bureaucrat. You could have their spell-book be re-flavored into a business ledger or book of contracts).

[Redshirt Army]

You could have their spell-book be re-flavored into a business ledger or book of contracts).

By section 14.56 of the New Exorian tax code, I summon thee, Fire Elemental!

Sorry, couldn't resist. :smalltongue:

[Zonugal]

By section 14.56 of the New Exorian tax code, I summon thee, Fire Elemental!

Sorry, couldn't resist. :smalltongue:

Just imagine that but with spells like Power Word Pain. Nobody would be messing with the law...

[Gnome Alone]

Hear ye, hear ye, I doth now Declayre, it having Been decided upon by All now present, that forthwithe thou shalt Be encovvered from crown to toe of foot with Dust Moste Glittery, so Suferring the Devill's own Blindness, and yea e'en should ye yet make yon Saving Throw 'gainst said Dust, still shalt ye Receive a Most Severe penaltee to thine Hide Cheques, not less than negativve fortee.

Anyway, it seems like they're a bit short on arcane magic, how about a rogue with some Use Magic Device? That way he has a non-wizardly role to fill yet can augment it with wands and the like as a backup, hopefully without overshadowing anyone. Not that it's not possible to overshadow folk if you've got a tricked-out UMD skill, but it sounds like your experienced player gets the value of restraint. Somehow I get that impression anyway.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Sounds like they could use a little more damage and some spellcasting. Maybe a Duskblade?

I think a Duskblade or a War Mage would be a good fit.


I think the party is missing a utility mage so a wizard or archivist could perhaps fit the role pretty well (have them be a man of the government, maybe a bureaucrat. You could have their spell-book be re-flavored into a business ledger or book of contracts).

This is a great idea for flavour. It could easily be applied to any prepared spellcaster which allows for versatility.

On an unrelated note, have you given any thought to multi-classing the caster with Binder? Could repressent a more repressed culture/religion in the society.

[Metahuman1]

Binder or Duskblade, or a Tome of battle class if you want too sure up Melee.

Sorcerer, with at most a medium optimization lvl, if you want to have a character capable of being helpful most of the time. (Give him one or two good save or Suck/Lose/Die spells per spell level, then one or two good summons, probably just summon monster spells and unseen servant, and then give him a good set of buff and utility spells for the rest. that way he can help out of combat with buffs and utility, sure up melee with buffs and summons, and participate directly with save or suck/lose/die spells. )

A dragonfire adept could be useful, or a factotum if you build it right.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I like the druid Idea, But not wanting the player to outshine the party have you thought about maybe a spirit shaman, it would fit with the native theme.

If you did a wizard i would do one of abjuration or divination mabye even a master specialist. just so the player is using more utility stuff then any thing else.

Personaly I would do the spirit shaman.

[Roc Ness]

I'll throw my lot in for a Duskblade or a specialised spontaneous wizard (Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necro).

[SleepyShadow]

Have him play a True Namer. He will never outshine the group :smallbiggrin:

[Adamantrue]

I like the druid Idea, But not wanting the player to outshine the party have you thought about maybe a spirit shaman, it would fit with the native theme.

[snip]

Personaly I would do the spirit shaman. You know, I already was planning on using one as an NPC, but using one as a PC offers some nice options too. You'd have a sort of iconic warrior and religious figurehead representing both peoples within the group.

I've never actually had one as a PC before, and really didn't experiment with it to any really deep degree as an NPC. They look like they could be safer than a Druid or Cleric due to lack of Wild Shaping and Turning, and a little more MAD (or at least, get a bit less for it).

Whelp, I should read up on them again. I found the Spirit Shaman Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19865442/The_Spirit_Shaman_Handbook), before anybody suggests it, but if anyone wants to clue me in on things I should know that aren't in there, feel free.

I'm not entirely sold on the idea yet, as the Spirit Shaman is unfamiliar to me, and I haven't noticed it on any Tier Lists. But its at the top of the list right now.

[Kobold-Bard]

If you want a Druid maybe use Shapeshift variant from PHB2? Much more retrained than the PHB version (and it's super awesome too).

[Coidzor]

Re: The Scout. Throw out the skirmish errata nerf, let him take the wild cohort feat (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) and use that as a mount.

Possibly direct him towards multiclassing with Ranger and going Swift Hunter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103.0).

And don't lead him towards shot on the run and spring attack, or even a single one of them those are too feat intensive for too little benefit. Go with manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot)and greater manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot).

edit: If you allow Mystic Ranger in there for the swift hunter idea, then you can also spread a bit of the spell support burden off of the bard if the 4th player doesn't bring any casting to the table.

For the last player... Druid(possibly Shapeshift variant), Shugenja, or something else that helps fill out the castery roles because the bard is going to be split between inspiring, casting his divinish magic which is only a bit and casting his arcanish magic. And maybe fighting some too, depending. If you are up for it, combining savage bard in with divine bard might not be too shabby considering the setting, but he's really going to feel the pain of not having that many spells per day or spells known.

Both Druid and the right flavor of Shugenja can add some battlefield control or buffing or whatever to help support the party as well as provide additional divine support depending upon what direction the divine bard goes in.

maybe Factotum/Binder/Warlock.


I'm not entirely sold on the idea yet, as the Spirit Shaman is unfamiliar to me, and I haven't noticed it on any Tier Lists. But its at the top of the list right now.

Spirit Shaman is slightly tweaked Druid casting without the AC or wildshape, so, it's still pretty good. Usually agreed to be Tier2ish, due to lacking the ways to action economy advantage of the Druid.

[Adamantrue]

And don't lead him towards shot on the run and spring attack, or even a single one of them those are too feat intensive for too little benefit. Go with manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#manyshot)and greater manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot). I personally don't trust taking that route with a character that doesn't have a Full Attack Bonus, and the Player already expressed an interest in a Hit & Run combat style. Though he may learn to love the bow.

At the moment, the potential build has the Poor Reflexes Flaw, the Quick Trait, Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, and Expeditious Dodge. He seems happy with the current set-up & plan, though maybe I should give him a Feat list of potential directions to go?

I'm thinking base archery feats, Spring Attack chain, something against charges (with a mobile or ranged combat style, he could probably use things like Hold the Line & Sidestep Charge with Sidestep).

Meanwhile...

Player D is cool with the idea of Spirit Shaman, as he's never played one before either. He's not entirely happy with playing a halfling though.

[Coidzor]

I personally don't trust taking that route with a character that doesn't have a Full Attack Bonus

Hence what I mentioned about swift hunter and wild cohort(or even the mounted scout variant class) as being alternatives to the current setup. Mounted archery is basically shot on the run's better cousin from what I recall anyway.

There's no such thing as "hit and run" combat style that shot on the run really satisfies well, and spring attack has too high of a feat investment for something where you'd be better off dipping pouncebarian & making sure whatever you attacked stays down.

but since you said he's uncertain about being ranged, it sounds like you mostly need to get a more solid feel for what he wants.

[Adamantrue]

I refuse to support CC's Pouncing Barbarian (along with the more extreme uses of Divine Metamagic, and a few other WotC Approved© choices.) And I put enough effort into getting the Knight away from Mounted Combat...I don't want to go through that hassle again when he sees another character doing it.

I think you are worried about a level of optimization efficiency I don't normally practice or encourage, especially with new players. Shot on the Run is fine here, as it lets him move to within Skirmish range, then move back away or to cover.

[Coidzor]

I refuse to support CC's Pouncing Barbarian (along with the more extreme uses of Divine Metamagic, and a few other WotC Approved© choices.) And I put enough effort into getting the Knight away from Mounted Combat...I don't want to go through that hassle again when he sees another character doing it.

I think you are worried about a level of optimization efficiency I don't normally practice or encourage, especially with new players. Shot on the Run is fine here, as it lets him move to within Skirmish range, then move back away or to cover.

Mostly I'm concerned about how you're going through long, badly designed feat chains and am offering alternatives to that which would let the character get his shtick up sooner. Because shot on the run and getting spring attack mean that you're delaying getting feats that actually improve one's archery ability or round out the character.

Why did you want the Knight to fight dismounted if he wanted to go with a mount? And charging on a mount is a lot different than having the mount for protection and mobility to dance out of enemy's reach. Because having one's mount move would provide the same benefit of being able to move in to range, fire, and get out of it as shot on the run without having all those other feats.

Wild Cohort = 1 feat that also has flavor for being a man with a connection with nature and the outdoors. Shot on the Run = 4 feats, with Spring Attack being a 5th feat that is actively competing with Shot on the Run for how the character will fight. If he's a halfling with no flaws and not a strongheart halfling, he'll have 2 feats by 3rd level, with maybe a scout bonus feat but I thought that one first happened on 4th or 5th level. So maybe by 6th level he could have Shot on the run up, whereas with Wild Cohort he could have been doing this as a level 1 character and certainly can at 3rd where you're starting things out.

Of course, there's also a Dragon Magazine mounted scout variant that I may have forgotten to mention that would get a scaling companion mount without necessitating a feat, as would going Swift Hunter and focusing on the Ranger side after the initial scout investment.

[Adamantrue]

Wow...this wasn't the conversation I was expecting...

Normal Skirmish isn't activated while Mounted, though perhaps the option you're talking about does (besides generally avoid Dragon Magazine stuff, I don't have a copy).

But even so, most of the Feats required for Shot on the Run or Spring Attack are...not bad choices by themselves in this case. Point Blank Shot is required regardless, Expeditious Dodge works alright here, and Mobility at 4th...

You know, Mobility isn't so bad here. With a character that has a good move rate & requires movement to activate Skirmish, you are gonna need to be able to get your distance again after an opponent charges you. Tumble isn't always perfect at low levels, especially if you are suddenly surrounded by a small group and are basically required to move.

And again...I'm not really concerned about a sharp optimization curve. As long as all the players stay relevant, are doing what they want to do, and have fun with this.

[edit]

As a side note, Player D expressed an interest in binding the group together with a Companion Spirit (I think that's what it is called...its like a Teamwork Benefit thing). Thematically it could work, but I forget what books are they in.

[Zonugal]

I think the problem raised is that the scout is splitting his options as opposed to focusing on one, specific pathway. The three feats within the Spring Attack chain (which is eh... Shot on the Run is better as at least it offers greater distance) could instead be geared towards assisting the Shot on the Run, thus making him better at a dedicated form of combat.

[Coidzor]

I think the problem raised is that the scout is splitting his options as opposed to focusing on one, specific pathway. The three feats within the Spring Attack chain (which is eh... Shot on the Run is better as at least it offers greater distance) could instead be geared towards assisting the Shot on the Run, thus making him better at a dedicated form of combat.

And sooner rather than only being able to do it after gaining several levels and taking feats that don't really do anything for his shtick until the end of the feat chain. At least, I got the impression they were starting at 3rd level without flaws or strongheart halfling.

And the scout errata should be set on fire, as I was suggesting by bringing up wild cohort and allowing skirmish to work with it.

[Arundel]

In a slight diversion (AKA on topic) I would recommend having them play a binder. If there are experienced they can handle the mechanics, plus the nature of the class allows them to fill nearly any role in the party to an acceptable degree of accuracy for a new group.

[Anathemata]

For my two cents, have you checked out the Pathfinder Alchemist? It's out of the WotC loop, but I've had good experiences with PF/3e compatibility. It's on the PFSRD, along with variants. It could serve you as a support/utility caster with a variety of mutagens, and in combat could either lob bombs from the back or pump itself full of Mr. Hyde-potions and take part of the front lines. Also, it only gets 6th level casting, which keeps it in line with your Bard. I could see a guy like that being on the run from whatever authorities exist on your world fluff-wise, or maybe just an explorer looking for new ingredients :smallbiggrin:. Overall a good choice, I believe.

[Adamantrue]

The Alchemist seems pretty neat, actually, but he's already working on a Spirit Shaman.