Mechanics behind an illusion

[Adamaro]

I would much appreciate if one could explain what exactly it would take to make two believable illusions: Illusion of a dragon and an illusion of a pile of gold. Dragon is of huge size and pile of gold is of huge size too. Could this be made permanent? At which caster lvl? Which spell could do this? How much would it cost?

tnx :smallsmile:

[Yora]

It depends on how long you want the illusion to work. A huge pile of gold is easy, as long as nobody touches it. If the illusion is supposed to still work when someone tries to take some coins, it becomes a lot harder.

The dragon is more complicated. If you just see the dragon from 100 meters away and it seems to be sleeping, it's again quite easy. But when you get closer, the dragon also has to make sounds, like breathing. And when you're really close, people may notice that it doesn't have a smell and does not produce ay heat, but more powerfull spells can create that as well.

Silent Image fools the eyes.
Minor Image does the same, but also creates the sounds.
Major Image adds smell and temperature.
But all these spells only work as long as you concentrate on it.

Persistent Image is like Major Image, but last for a couple of minutes without needing to concentrate on it.
And Permanent Image (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanentImage.htm) is probably what you want, as it works until dispelled. It's a 6th level spell, though.
But as soon as someone touches the dragon or the gold, or casts a spell on them that should have an immediately noticeable effect, they'll notice that someone isn't right and get a saving throw to see that it's an illusion.

[Adamaro]

Tnx Yora,

I guess Permanent Illusion will do the trick. I just did not want to completely "make it up" as a DM.

Do you think an illusion of a dragon could talk, answer questions, etc? As for pile of gold, this is a perfect solution.

[Yora]

That would be a lot more complicated. To talk to the dragon without a spellcaster controlling the illusion would require some type of intelligent mind for the illusion. This is where Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) comes into play. It's a 7th level spell, so it requires at least a 13th level wizard or sorcerer to create and cost at least 1,300 gp and 1,300 XP.
It would allow you to create a huge size dragon, which is already fairly big and would do exactly what you want. Provide it with the information it is supposed to know and give it instructions what to do when visitors arrive.
However, it's still an illusion that does just what it was told to do. When the PCs start to asks questions the creator did not anticipate, they might notice that this dragon is acting strange.

[erikun]

Magic Mouth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicMouth.htm) would also be a possibility, if you just want to convey a short message. If you want the players to actually converse and interact with the illusion, though, you're better with Simulacrum.

[King Atticus]

That would be a lot more complicated. To talk to the dragon without a spellcaster controlling the illusion would require some type of intelligent mind for the illusion. This is where Simulacrum (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) comes into play. It's a 7th level spell, so it requires at least a 13th level wizard or sorcerer to create and cost at least 1,300 gp and 1,300 XP.
It would allow you to create a huge size dragon, which is already fairly big and would do exactly what you want. Provide it with the information it is supposed to know and give it instructions what to do when visitors arrive.
However, it's still an illusion that does just what it was told to do. When the PCs start to asks questions the creator did not anticipate, they might notice that this dragon is acting strange.

It would be a little scary though because it requires:
some piece of the creature to be duplicated (hair, nail, or the like)
While that's not as big a deal for the DM to just make happen, it would tend to lean towards a more powerful caster who has encountered a huge dragon and was able to walk away with a trophy.

[Shadowknight12]

Simulacrum works. Also, Persistent Image with a Magic Mouth.

If you want the gold to fool the players (because Permanent Image will reveal that the gold is an illusion upon touching it), you can do the following:

Greater Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjurationGreater.htm) --> to duplicate Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) --> Then shape the piles of (fake) gold into coins with Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) --> Cast Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) and pay 2,500 XP (as though it was the Magnificent Mansion equivalent).

Voilà. Permanent illusory gold coins.

[King Atticus]

Simulacrum works. Also, Persistent Image with a Magic Mouth.

If you want the gold to fool the players (because Permanent Image will reveal that the gold is an illusion upon touching it), you can do the following:

Greater Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjurationGreater.htm) --> to duplicate Major Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/majorCreation.htm) --> Then shape the piles of (fake) gold into coins with Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) --> Cast Permanency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm) and pay 2,500 XP (as though it was the Magnificent Mansion equivalent).

Voilà. Permanent illusory gold coins.

Curious as to the realism of these coins. If you were so inclined to do this as a PC would they be real enough to spend?

[Shadowknight12]

Curious as to the realism of these coins. If you were so inclined to do this as a PC would they be real enough to spend?

The illusory aspect is unnecessary. You can get by with actual permanent gold coins that can't be disbelieved simply by using Major Creation instead of using Greater Shadow Conjuration to duplicate it.

From Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm):


Shadow objects or substances have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them.

If they fail their Will save to disbelieve, they'll think they're bona fide gold coins and should be completely spendable. If they succeed their Will save to disbelieve, then presumably they see this:


A creature that succeeds on its save sees the shadow conjurations as transparent images superimposed on vague, shadowy forms.

And should therefore know something's not right with the coins and might refuse to accept them. Glibness or a really high Bluff check could be used to convince them that the "weirdness" of the coins is all in their heads, though, and that the coins are perfectly normal. But it depends on the DM if he lets you get away with that.

Still, Major Creation straight away is the way to go for this. No chance to disbelieve it.

[Yora]

Major creation lasts only for a few hours, though. I assume the dragon and gold illusion is meant to be in that place for months, years, or even permanently.

[Shadowknight12]

Major creation lasts only for a few hours, though. I assume the dragon and gold illusion is meant to be in that place for months, years, or even permanently.

20 minutes/level for gold, to be exact. You missed my use of the Permanency spell, it seems. :smalltongue: