Mystic Theurge?

[Cornelius Grim]

I was contemplating whether or not I should make a Mystic Theurge when a key issue caught my attention. I'm going to be 3 caster levels lower in each of my classes, which are going to be wizard and cleric, and that means I'm not going to be gaining new levels as quickly. So if I'm going to be level 8 before I even get 3rd level spells, is it really worth it to have so many not as powerful spells? My caster level will only be five.

I'm trying to base this character around necromancy spells. We'll be starting at level 1, so I'm not sure whether or not I should make a Mystic Theurge so I'll have a lot of lower level spells or normal amount of moderately powered spells. Or I could just make a solid, single-classed cleric. I would still get necromancy spells but I really like the idea of Mystic Theurge.

So basically, I would just like someone to weigh the pros and cons and maybe share ideas. Sorry if I wasn't very clear with some of my words. Thank you, Playground. :smile:

[Jack_Simth]

Short answer (and I'll probably be swordsage'd hard) is that Mystic Theurge is very far from optimal when used as intended (Cleric-3/Wizard-3)- it appears to be designed to make the arcane/divine multiclass character viable. A Cleric-3/Wizard-3/Mystic Theurge-10 will do fine in a game that's not high-optimization. The Cleric-8/Wizard-8 is a baggage handler at that level.

Now, when it's used to add to a PrC that gets it's own progression, it can get a tad over-strong for a great many games. By default, though, the standard Cleric-3/Wizard-3/Mystic Theurge-X is rather painful to play at low-levels, and at higher levels is weaker than a pure-classed character, while having a bit more endurance than a pure-classed character.

[hivedragon]

Just take practiced spell caster from complete arcane twice.
or you could play a dread necromancer
or this
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#necromancerVariants

[dextercorvia]

No. It is never worth it to take Mystic Theurge without early entry. You can play characters with a similar bent, holy wizard or arcane cleric, better as a single classed wizard, cleric, or archivist.

For Wizard, take the Arcane Disciple feat, and maybe grab a domain power or two via the Complete Champion ACF or Planar Touchstone feat. You can get Turn Undead from Sacred Exorcist.

For the Cleric, start with the Cloistered variant, and take the spell domain and the Spontaneous Domain ACF from PHBII. Then there is a variant in Complete Mage which allows you to make a custom domain from some Wizard schools, or the Time, Celerity, or Travel domains get you some Wizardly goodness. Levels in Contemplative will help.

For Archivist, just be an Archivist, and maybe join a Wizard order, so that you can cooperatively craft scrolls of any Wizard spell you want.

[Randomguy]

It depends on what class the other people in your party will be. If the party already has a primary healer or a secondary healer, then go ahead: the healing/casting that you don't have will be made up for by your party members. If you'll be the only person in the party with any healing, then it's probably better to go with a full cleric, to improve the party survivability.
In any case, try to get an early feat or something. Precocious apprentice can give you a lvl 2 spell slot with 1 level of wizard (or sorcerer), so you'll lose one caster level of cleric, (but still 3 of wizard/sorcerer) and you'll get in 2 levels earlier.

Also, you can take the divine magician option found in complete mage. You give only get one domain, but you can add a single sorcerer/wizard spell of the abjuration, divination or necromancy schools to your spell list for each spell level you have.

[Rhaegar14]

Alternatively, you could play a Druid instead of a Cleric, and go with Arcane Hierophant out of Races of the Wild; which gets armor without spell failure, a companion with all the traits of your familiar, and wild shape advancement.

[Darcand]

I actually like the MT for Pathfinder and am thinking about trying out a sorceror/ oracle with it, since they share a key stat and it would allow much expanded list of spells known. It really depends on what sort of casting you'll be doing.

For a necromancer (or summoner for that matter) will you DM allow a seperate HD pool of undead from each of your classes? If not then you're really just nerfing yourself, since everything you do will depend on caster level.

On a side note, does Pathfinder's Mystic Theurge continue bloodline/ mystery spell progression or is it only base spell progression? I don't recall it saying one way or another.

[Taelas]

Mystic Theurge is, unfortunately, significantly sub-par. Beyond the fact that you have a very slowed casting progression (ignoring early entry shenanigans), most divine classes do not work particularly well with arcane classes. Most of them use Wisdom instead of Int or Cha as their primary casting ability (though there are exceptions), and they lack the concern for arcane spell-failure that keeps most Wizards and Sorcerers out of armor.

You also only have a limited number of actions per round, and without ways to break that action economy, being able to cast a ton of different spells is not really worth that much. (Though you will be extremely versatile.)

There are ways around it, of course, and you can optimize a Mystic Theurge if you want to (and try hard). Gishes are an exception that can use Cleric spells extremely well, so if you use, say, a Dread Necromancer as the arcane chassis, you could dip into Cleric spells while retaining most of your primary arcane casting ability, and add DMM: Persistent Spell to more-or-less make up the vast majority of your combat ability. You wouldn't get 9th level spells, of course -- not without an early entry into Mystic Theurge using less levels of Cleric. An early-entry trick would be necessary, such as Heighten Spell + Earth Spell. I suppose Precocious Apprentice could work if you can somehow count as a 1st level arcane caster and still have divine spells at first level; the description of the feat does not preclude using it on divine spells if you have them. (Could simply using gnome do it? They cast a few SLAs, with a CL of 1st, and all the spells are arcane.)

Dread Necromancer 4/Cleric 1/Mystic Theurge 8/Dread Necromancer +4/x 3 doesn't sound too bad for an Undead-focused gish. Of course if you want good defense as well and aren't too worried about undead, you could go DN 4/Cleric 1/MT 8/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7. Your hit points are pretty low, though... but, you're an IotSV!

Even without the early entry trick, a DN 4/Cleric 3/MT 6/IotSV 7 should be a strong gish. It does use one of the most overpowered prestige classes in the entire game, though. But, I am not usually making gishes, so there are probably far better examples.

[Zaq]

Congratulations. You have discovered what is wrong with MT, at least when played as intended.

I'm not adding anything new, but yeah, MT really only works with early entry shenanigans and/or fast progression classes. I do find it telling that most of the later dual-progression classes (Ultimate Magus and Arcane Heirophant in particular, but also Soulcaster, Sapphire Hierarch, Noctumancer . . .) got class features as well, even though a couple (Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge, anyone?) didn't.

[Darth_Versity]

Mystic theurge can be a really fun to play so long as your group is not into highly optimised builds, the only problem is you will have to do some basic optimisation to get it to function.

The first is having the correct class combination. Wizard/cleric really sucks. They have no synergy as the clerics armour proficiency and casting stat doesn't match in any way with wizard. A much better combo is Archivist/Wizard. Both work off of intelligence, both scribe scrolls in spellbooks, and the archivists light armour proficiency can be used with a wizard by lowering the spell failure on it, which is fairly easy, twilight mithral shirt FTW. They also both provide scribe scrolls so you can used the ACF from unearthed arcana to swap your wizards one for a fighter bonus feat. Improved initiative is a good choice.

Also, a form of early entry is really nessasary. There are two main methods. The Earth Spell/Sanctum spell route, or the precocious apprentice route. For my MT is used precocious as it seemed less cheesy, but sanctum spell gets you in one level sooner.

There are other methods that lose no caster levels (kobold loredrake) but most DMs would slap you for even attempting it.

MT can be great fun to play, I loved it as I had a massive selection of spells and worked really well as the parties buffer/debuffer/healer/utility caster/battlefield controller/blaster. You just have that many you can fill so many rolls, but just remember you can only be one thing at a time.

I like to think the build I used was a good baseline for the average group

Human Archivist 3/ Wizard 1/ Mystic Theurge X
(25 pt buy)
STR 9
DEX 10
CON 14
INT 18
WIS 8
CHA 8

Feats
Scribe scrolls
Improved initiative
Spell casting prodigy
Precocious apprentice

[Kantolin]

As a note, while a Mystic Theurge is fairly firmly worse than a straight wizard or cleric... it's very fun. ^_^

Meaning, you certainly won't be useless with the typical 3/3/10 combination. The Wizard and Cleric spell lists are quite potent, after all. So if your group isn't super optimized, you'll probably be fine with a mystic theurge, especially once you get started actually taking the class. Especially if there isn't a cleric or wizard in the party to sit on you.

If you ask me, the roughest moment for a mystic theurge is at levels 5-7, when your casting is behind but you haven't really gotten steam yet on the theurge class. Once you hit level 8, and have accessed third level spells on both sides, that's when it really starts to kick in and you actually feel kinda neat ^_^ At low levels, it's not terribly different one way or another.

If you do have a full cleric or wizard in the party, however, they may spend time stamping all over your schtick, so look out for that.

[warmachine]

As others have pointed out, it's sub-par and, thus, don't use it for high optmisation games. For lower power levels, it can be fun if you're a tactician that makes sure the battle is won whilst the other players charge in like maniacs. At level 10 and higher, the monsters have really nasty tricks but you've got a huge variety of spells to counter them. I've had fun with the class myself.

[faceroll]

It depends on what class the other people in your party will be. If the party already has a primary healer or a secondary healer, then go ahead: the healing/casting that you don't have will be made up for by your party members. If you'll be the only person in the party with any healing, then it's probably better to go with a full cleric, to improve the party survivability.
In any case, try to get an early feat or something. Precocious apprentice can give you a lvl 2 spell slot with 1 level of wizard (or sorcerer), so you'll lose one caster level of cleric, (but still 3 of wizard/sorcerer) and you'll get in 2 levels earlier.

Also, you can take the divine magician option found in complete mage. You give only get one domain, but you can add a single sorcerer/wizard spell of the abjuration, divination or necromancy schools to your spell list for each spell level you have.

What a party's primary healer looks like:
http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/2230/10744magic_wand.jpg

[Kurald Galain]

Yeah, the main problem with MT is that it's not as strong as the absolute strongest classes in the game :smallamused: Oh wait, how exactly is that a problem again? Considering how many people enjoy playing paladins, or rogues, or even monks, an MT is not going to feel underpowered in many groups in practice.

[Kobold-Bard]

Subtle self promotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217) is subtle.....

[Darth_Versity]

What a party's primary healer looks like:
http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/2230/10744magic_wand.jpg

Ah yes, because that helps the discussion :smallamused:


Subtle self promotion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166217) is subtle.....

Subtle check is a failure! Self promotion check is a success!

[Yora]

Mystic Theurges are really good.

The reason they exist is to provide an alternative to playing a wizard 10/cleric 10. A wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 is so much better!

They are not intended to compare well against a wizard 20 or a cleric 20.

[Darth_Versity]

Mystic Theurges are really good.

The reason they exist is to provide an alternative to playing a wizard 10/cleric 10. A wizard 5/Cleric 5/Mystic Theurge 10 is so much better!

They are not intended to compare well against a wizard 20 or a cleric 20.

I agree entirely. In an high optimisation game with uber casters it'll never look good, and in a core only game it sits quite happily as an average character. But with all the new supplements since it's design, it hasn't kept up with the power creep. That's where an early entry method helps out and keeps it at a decent power level for the average group.

[Cieyrin]

It should be pointed out that a Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge doesn't need shenanigans to get double 9s, so it's at least good for that. It's better with Shenanigans but you don't need to and there won't be any arguments about Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Caster or any of that.

[Hunter Killer]

I tend to disagree with those that say the Mystic Theurge is sub-par. It's not. It just isn't one of those prestiges you take all the way to 10.

My favorite use of the good ol' Theurge is to go Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Theurge 2 with Natural Bond as one of my feats.

Is this particular character lower powered on spell casting than a straight Druid or Wizard? Yeah, but he's got a buttload more spells, a buddy who's effectively a 17th level Animal Companion + 13th level Familiar, and Wildshape equivalent to a 13th level Druid. No a bad trade off, IMHO.

[Jack_Simth]

I tend to disagree with those that say the Mystic Theurge is sub-par. It's not. It just isn't one of those prestiges you take all the way to 10.

My favorite use of the good ol' Theurge is to go Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Theurge 2 with Natural Bond as one of my feats.

Is this particular character lower powered on spell casting than a straight Druid or Wizard? Yeah, but he's got a buttload more spells, a buddy who's effectively a 17th level Animal Companion + 13th level Familiar, and Wildshape equivalent to a 13th level Druid. No a bad trade off, IMHO.

You can boost the familiar side with two feats:
Obtain Familiar + Practiced Spellcaster.
Obtain Familiar makes your effective Wizard / Sorcerer level equal to your arcane caster level. Practiced Spellcaster makes your arcane caster level equal to your character level ... not that, you know, you get much of worth past 13th...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Use Illumian (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20041203a&page=2) with Improved Sigil: Krau, and go X 2/ Y 1/ Mystic Theurge for no loss of caster level. Its feat cost is equal to that of a Human with Practiced Spellcaster twice, and you're considerably better off on spellcasting ability.

[Veyr]

I tend to disagree with those that say the Mystic Theurge is sub-par. It's not. It just isn't one of those prestiges you take all the way to 10.

My favorite use of the good ol' Theurge is to go Druid 3 / Wizard 3 / Theurge 2 / Arcane Hierophant 10 / Theurge 2 with Natural Bond as one of my feats.

Is this particular character lower powered on spell casting than a straight Druid or Wizard? Yeah, but he's got a buttload more spells, a buddy who's effectively a 17th level Animal Companion + 13th level Familiar, and Wildshape equivalent to a 13th level Druid. No a bad trade off, IMHO.
This is an Arcane Hierophant build, not a Mystic Theurge build. Mystic Theurge is just picking up some of the slack.

Also, it's probably still weaker than a Druid 20 or Wizard 20.

[FMArthur]

Entry with 1 level on one side is actually pretty great. From a wizard's perspective it could be 1 level and a feat lost in exchange for 11 archivist levels. It's not strictly better because you're one level down on your strongest abilities, but I would actually say that it is overall more powerful than straight wizard.

That doesn't mean there's no problem however, because it still fails utterly at constructing characters who are equally devoted to two sides.

[Veyr]

Agreed. It'd be interesting to see how many levels on each side winds up balanced....

[FMArthur]

What I've personally found to be best for the game is a loss of 2 on each side, which is something that never happens with the default requirements. 3 is too much, 1 is too little. Having a full 16-level progression is also part of my MT houserule. It's rough on the user at ECL 3 and 4 still, but that's hard to get around.

[Veyr]

Require 1st level spells on each side, and have it lose a spellcasting level while in-class somewhere.

[FMArthur]

Good idea! Where, though?

[dextercorvia]

I would say that it loses one side at level 6/18 and the other 12/18.

[Jack_Simth]

Good idea! Where, though?
That is the question, isn't it? If it's too low, it defeats the purpose of reducing the requirements to get there; if it's too high, it won't come up in the campaign, and thus the lost level doesn't exist for most practical purposes...

So I suppose the answer is "where it works for your table" - not a very useful answer, though. Perhaps a level or three above where you usually start a campaign?

[dextercorvia]

On second thought, Jack makes a good point. Now, I'm thinking earlier -- more like 2nd and 4th.

[deuxhero]

the archivists light armour proficiency can be used with a wizard by lowering the spell failure on it, which is fairly easy, twilight mithral shirt FTW.

Nope.

Mithral Twilight Chain Shirt has a 0 ACP as well as no 0 ASF. All non-profiency penalties are based on ACP, so unless your class features flat out say they don't work while armored (Monk. Also Druid given it is metal), you receive no penalty for wearing one with no proficiency.

[Hunter Killer]

This is an Arcane Hierophant build, not a Mystic Theurge build. Mystic Theurge is just picking up some of the slack.

Also, it's probably still weaker than a Druid 20 or Wizard 20.

I understand what you're saying, but that was the point I was trying to make: Mystic Theurge isn't a class you take all the way to 10; It is a gap filler. You take it to pick up slack in builds focused on other classes.

I disagree that it's significantly weaker than Druid 20 or Wizard 20. It gains spells slower, and has access to a lot less 9th level spells, but overall it has twice as many spells with some great abilities layered on top. It's a question of versatility and endurance vs. raw power.

[Veyr]

I understand what you're saying, but that was the point I was trying to make: Mystic Theurge isn't a class you take all the way to 10; It is a gap filler. You take it to pick up slack in builds focused on other classes.
Eh... I mean, OK, this would be a semantic argument if we had it; no point in doing so. I understand what you mean and agree. It's a decent use of the class.


I disagree that it's significantly weaker than Druid 20 or Wizard 20. It gains spells slower, and has access to a lot less 9th level spells, but overall it has twice as many spells with some great abilities layered on top. It's a question of versatility and endurance vs. raw power.
Oh, I very much did not say, or intend, "significantly" weaker. I'm far from certain that it's weaker at all, to be honest; I simply suspect that it is, somewhat.

[Cieyrin]

I disagree that it's significantly weaker than Druid 20 or Wizard 20. It gains spells slower, and has access to a lot less 9th level spells, but overall it has twice as many spells with some great abilities layered on top. It's a question of versatility and endurance vs. raw power.

That was the thought process of the designers when they made the Theurge but versatility and endurance, while nice, doesn't equate with raw power. Higher level slots mean more metamagic and having access to the tool to get over your problem, which the Theurge just doesn't have. He's bringing a pistol to a rocket war, which just ain't gonna cut it when the straight Wizard Time Stops, buffs up and rips the Theurge apart.

Now, there's nothing wrong with playing a Theurge, as that endurance generally means a longer working day but lacking access to the big guns can make all the difference at whatever level you're at.

[Hunter Killer]

Alright. We mostly agree. I'm not interesting in having a semantics argument either, so I suppose I can concede you have your points.

On another subject, what is everyone's opinion on accelerated caster cheese with Mystic Theurge, like Ur-Priest? I think it is a pretty good use of the class too.

[Jack_Simth]

Alright. We mostly agree. I'm not interesting in having a semantics argument either, so I suppose I can concede you have your points.

On another subject, what is everyone's opinion on accelerated caster cheese with Mystic Theurge, like Ur-Priest? I think it is a pretty good use of the class too.
Getting into that type of thing is when the MT starts becoming a bit overly-strong. The "Classic" Wizard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10/Arcane-PrC-Combo-of-Choice-2 gets:
9th level Divine (Wis: Caster level depends on a few rulings)
9th level Arcane (Int: Caster level 18, 20 if Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard) is used)

Then there's the Sublime Ur-Theurge: Bard-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge(Ur-Priest / Bard)-2/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge(Sublime Chord / Ur-Priest)-8/Arcane PrC of Choice-1
9th level Divine (Wis: Caster level depends on a few rulings)
9th level Arcane (Cha: Caster level: 18; 22 if Practiced Spellcaster (Bard) is used)

[Hunter Killer]

I've never heard of the Mindbender. What book is that in?

The Ur-Chord build looks sick, by the way. I thought normal caster + Ur-Priest 2 + Theurge 10 would be bad enough, but damn... :smallamused:

[Veyr]

Ehh... Ur-Priest has so few spells per day that I'm not convinced that 10th level Ur-Priest casting is worth two Wizard spellcasting levels.

The Ur-Chord, of course, loses no spellcasting levels, but now both sides have very few spells per day. I'd be curious to see how one compared to a straight Wizard... or worse, a 20th-level Wizard 5 with full spellcasting, with two or three PrCs in there.

[Darth_Versity]

I'd be curious to see how one compared to a straight Wizard... or worse, a 20th-level Wizard 5 with full spellcasting, with two or three PrCs in there.

Hah, the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil laughs at your pathetic casting and destroys you with barely a thought! :smalltongue:

[dextercorvia]

Ehh... Ur-Priest has so few spells per day that I'm not convinced that 10th level Ur-Priest casting is worth two Wizard spellcasting levels.

The Ur-Chord, of course, loses no spellcasting levels, but now both sides have very few spells per day. I'd be curious to see how one compared to a straight Wizard... or worse, a 20th-level Wizard 5 with full spellcasting, with two or three PrCs in there.

I would expect that a Theurge with one level of Ur-Priest compares favorably. There aren't many uses of Rebuke that are going to benefit from such a stunted turning level. At that point in your career, DMM isn't going to be a high priority, and is very feat intensive, since you can't get any help from domains.

[Hunter Killer]

Hmm. I wonder... What about adding Abjurant Champion cheese in the mix?

Savage Bard 5 / Ur-Priest 3 / Abjurant Champion 2 (Bard) / Sublime Chord 1 / Abjurant Champion 2 (Chord) / Mystic Theurge 7 (Chord/Ur-Priest).

That gives you full Ur-Priest and Chord casting, the ability to burn spells to improve character aspects, swift abjurations, etc...

[Hazzardevil]

I've never heard of the Mindbender. What book is that in?

The Ur-Chord build looks sick, by the way. I thought normal caster + Ur-Priest 2 + Theurge 10 would be bad enough, but damn... :smallamused:

I can make that worse, well worse as in more powerful at high levels, weaker at low levels.
Any Humanoid (Human) race.
Facototum 1/Rogue 2/Bard 1/Prepared Arcane Caster 5/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9
Add able learner and you now have a build level 9 arcane and divine spells and a lot more hit points than a standard one.

[Doug Lampert]

I disagree that it's significantly weaker than Druid 20 or Wizard 20. It gains spells slower, and has access to a lot less 9th level spells, but overall it has twice as many spells with some great abilities layered on top. It's a question of versatility and endurance vs. raw power.

If you think it has twice as many spells, I can see your problem right there.

Clc-3/Wiz-3/MT-5 gets 28 spells of 1+, straight cleric gets 25. I'm not seeing double the spells.

This is not counting ability bonus spells, which are often a wash since the single class doesn't suffer from MAD and has more levels of spells available to get bonus spells for.

8-12 extra spells of levels 1-4 isn't worth all 5-7 of your spells of levels 5 and 6!

The absolute BEST case for the MT is level 16. It doesn't get any better than this. Clc-3/Wiz-3/MT-10 just got level 7 spells in both clsses, the single classed doesn't yet have 9th level, and from now on the MT will advance only one class at a time. But even here it's 53 spells for the MT to 39 for the single classed cleric, still nowhere close to double.

Let's do a build based on 25 point buy human at level 16.
A caster cleric has 9 8 14 8 28 10; He gets 14 bonus spells for abilities (and next level gets a bonus level 9 spell).

Now the MT build with comparable resources (he saves 4,000 GP by getting two +4 items rather than 1 +6).
MT: 9 8 12 22 22 8; he gets 20 bonus spells for abilities (and dumped CON to do this!)

So 73 to 53 is the best it ever gets, that's not 2:1. It's not even close to 2:1, and you've spent two feats on Practiced Spellcaster to keep your caster level up, thrown away your 8th level spells to get this, delayed 9th level spells, lost the wizard's bonus feats and lost the cleric's armor, and have FEWER HP than the single-classed wizard due to lower con.

Oh, and your familiar doesn't progress, and we all know how crippling (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Lightning_warrior_(3.5e_Class)) that is.

DougL

[Veyr]

If you think it has twice as many spells, I can see your problem right there.
He's talking about his Druid/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Arcane Hierophant build. It gets 17th level casting in both classes, which does give it quite a few more spells per day than either a Druid 20 or Wizard 20.

He has one fewer Druid spell per day at each of spell levels 5, 7, 8, and 9, and one fewer Wizard spell per day at each of spell levels 7, 8, and 9. However, when you add the spells per day together, you get three (compared to Druid) or four (compared to Wizard) more 5th-level spells, two more 7th-level spells, equally many 8th-level spells, and two fewer 9th-level spells, plus many-many more spells per day from each of the other spell levels. So at level 20, you're trading two 9th-level spell slots for two 7th-level spells slots and a lot of spells from levels below that.

It's a debatable trade, to be sure. 9th-level spells are that good. But there is something here to be said about it having dramatically more spells per day from most levels.

[Hunter Killer]

Doug, there's this thing called hyperbole. I know they don't literally get twice the spells. However, the amount of extra spells they get is nothing to sneeze at, and the versatility of dual casting is pretty rockin'.

You'll also note that my build used Arcane Heirophant, which progresses more than just spellcasting. Stacking the companion and familiar bonuses on top of each other can get you a pretty nasty pet.

Again... It trades raw power for versatility and endurance. Yes, in the level 9 spells department the straight caster is better, but that doesn't mean the dual caster is completely ineffective or weak.

[Jack_Simth]

I've never heard of the Mindbender. What book is that in?Complete Arcane, originally Tome & Blood. It's a half-casting PrC with a good Fort save and a few other nifties - but the notable bit is that it advances casting at 1st, and is really easy to get into, which makes it a worthwhile one-level dip for anyone without a good Fort save who wants to go into Ur-Priest.

The Ur-Chord build looks sick, by the way. I thought normal caster + Ur-Priest 2 + Theurge 10 would be bad enough, but damn... :smallamused:
It's less strong than it looks initially. Both progressions have sharply limited spells-per-day, and you've got a split casting stat (Wisdom + Charisma). You can get nearly any spell you want, but your save DC's and bonus spells are low, and you don't have much endurance. If you add the two sets of Spells-Per-Day together, you only have 3 base 9th level spell slots at 20th level. You're a weakened Sorcerer with some prepared spell access and a better skill list.

Ehh... Ur-Priest has so few spells per day that I'm not convinced that 10th level Ur-Priest casting is worth two Wizard spellcasting levels.

Depends on what you consider worthwhile. Is it fully optimized? No, not at all. But then, only Pun-Pun is. Does it add Divine casting, letting you get a particular fiction archetype in, without mechanically crippling you? Yes, absolutely.


The Ur-Chord, of course, loses no spellcasting levels, but now both sides have very few spells per day. I'd be curious to see how one compared to a straight Wizard... or worse, a 20th-level Wizard 5 with full spellcasting, with two or three PrCs in there.
A sufficiently optimized Wizard will mop the floor with most things. Given equal optimization levels, the Wizard will probably still win, as the Sublime Ur-Theurge requires a bit of optimization to work at all, so the Wizard comes out ahead there, too.


I would expect that a Theurge with one level of Ur-Priest compares favorably. There aren't many uses of Rebuke that are going to benefit from such a stunted turning level. At that point in your career, DMM isn't going to be a high priority, and is very feat intensive, since you can't get any help from domains.
The second level of Ur-Priest is generally for the 2nd level spells to qualify for Mystic Theurge. Early entry tricks can bypass that, but that's usually why Ur-Priest 2 before Mystic Theurge.

[Doug Lampert]

Doug, there's this thing called hyperbole. I know they don't literally get twice the spells. However, the amount of extra spells they get is nothing to sneeze at, and the versatility of dual casting is pretty rockin'.

You'll also note that my build used Arcane Heirophant, which progresses more than just spellcasting. Stacking the companion and familiar bonuses on top of each other can get you a pretty nasty pet.

Again... It trades raw power for versatility and endurance. Yes, in the level 9 spells department the straight caster is better, but that doesn't mean the dual caster is completely ineffective or weak.

So? You're depending on ANOTHER prestige class to make MT work? Does that mean the straight caster can also use a different and more powerful prestige class to make his build stronger, because there are some REALLY NASTY prestige classes out there for the "straight" casters.

Straight up traditional Clc/Wiz/MT is grossly weaker than either base class.

MT+Splat book Prestige Classes vs. core cleric is only somewhat weak. But he's STILL worse, because ninth level spells are just that good.

But if we equalize the optimization by allowing BOTH builds access to additional prestige classes and sources then MT+ vs. single+prestige classes is again grossly weaker.

At any given optimization level the MT is vastly weaker (unless boosting a pair of prestige classes with improved casting), and at any given optimization level he doesn't have a significant endurance edge if the optimizer values endurance.

Finally, a question, MT doesn't advance ANY Hierophant features other than spellcasting, are you sure your familiar/companion is all that good? Because 10 of your levels do NOTHING for it if you're making a 10 level MT build.

[JackRackham]

OK, related question, I didn't think this was significant enough for it's own thread. You're a Wiz3/Cler3/MT whatever....what do you do after MT level 10? I mean, I've been looking for PrCs that continue the dual progression and the only other one I've found also requires druid abilities and evasion. Is there a way (minus just house ruling MT to be a 15-lvl class) to continue your full dual progression for those seven levels? I mean, otherwise, on a 20-lvl build, MT is just trash (because multiclassing between Wizard and Cleric for 10 full levels is awful).

Related question: If MT were a 15-lvl PrC, would it then be considered a pretty powerful class? (Esp given Archivist/Wiz to minimize MAD, etc)

[navar100]

It all depends upon your personal taste. Obviously you're not going to cast the higher level spells a single class spellcaster would and at several levels delayed gratification of getting those spell levels. What you get instead is a variety and quantity of low level spells. Low level spells are not the Suckage. Some spells are "better" than others, but being low level does not in itself make a spell terrible.

The question you need to ask yourself is whether you can have fun casting only low level spells for a long while with the variety they bring. If you can, then it is irrelevant at character level 13 you're not casting Prismatic Spray like a 13th level wizard or Repulsion like a 13th level cleric. That 13th level wizard can't heal ability score damage like you can. That 13th level cleric can't be immune to spells 3rd level and lower like you can.

[Hunter Killer]

So? You're depending on ANOTHER prestige class to make MT work?
Yes. Yes, I am. There's nothing wrong with doing that; I already said that I don't think Theurge is a class that you take to 10. It's role is to be a filler, and one of the best at that because it is easy to get into and provides full dual-progression.


Straight up traditional Clc/Wiz/MT is grossly weaker than either base class.
You're damn right it is, and you'll never hear me say anything different. None of my previous posts dispute this point, and I fully agree with you here.


MT+Splat book Prestige Classes vs. core cleric is only somewhat weak. But he's STILL worse, because ninth level spells are just that good.
I've always disagreed with this. Yes, they are great, but even 20th level casters only have 3-6 9th level spells a day. You're going to save those for BBEG combats, and in the rest of your combats you are going to be using lower level spells.

Any dual-cast simply gets more, and can deal with a much wider range of situations because he has access to two radically different lists.


Finally, a question, MT doesn't advance ANY Hierophant features other than spellcasting, are you sure your familiar/companion is all that good? Because 10 of your levels do NOTHING for it if you're making a 10 level MT build.
Again, Theurge to 10 is something I believe is bad.

That's why I'd do 4 levels of Theurge and 10 of Arcane Hierophant. That's 10 levels of companion progression + 3 Druid levels, and with Natural Bond you get an additional +4 to your effective companion level. Stack 13 levels of familiar progression on that and YES, your pet is NASTY.

[Cieyrin]

That's why I'd do 4 levels of Theurge and 10 of Arcane Hierophant. That's 10 levels of companion progression + 3 Druid levels, and with Natural Bond you get an additional +4 to your effective companion level. Stack 13 levels of familiar progression on that and YES, your pet is NASTY.

I don't think Companion Familiars are actually that out and out dangerous, honestly. It's getting most of its power from its Animal Companion side, with AH advancing its HD being the biggest part. The Familiar side is used for determining Int and Familiar specials, which aren't exactly overpowering by any means. What it comes down to is that you have a smart guardian that can actually use tactics, which I suppose could be where you're getting it being a Nasty customer but really, I don't think it holds a candle to normal Super Mount builds via Devoted Tracker and Halfling Outrider. The only neat trick I'm seeing is having it deliver a touch spell for you while it eats somebody's face like a normal companion and other shenanigans involved with familiar and companion only spells.

[Veyr]

Depends on what you consider worthwhile. Is it fully optimized? No, not at all. But then, only Pun-Pun is. Does it add Divine casting, letting you get a particular fiction archetype in, without mechanically crippling you? Yes, absolutely.
I didn't say "worthwhile", though, I said "worth two spellcasting levels". I purely meant as a comparison of Wizard 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 vs. Wizard 20, which comes out better. Pretty sure the pure Wizard does. Obviously, though, the Wizard's got more than enough power to spare, and the Ur-Theurge is exceedingly powerful as well.

[Jack_Simth]

I didn't say "worthwhile", though, I said "worth two spellcasting levels". I purely meant as a comparison of Wizard 8/Ur-Priest 2/Mystic Theurge 10 vs. Wizard 20, which comes out better. Pretty sure the pure Wizard does. Obviously, though, the Wizard's got more than enough power to spare, and the Ur-Theurge is exceedingly powerful as well.
Then you're trading raw power and a few feats for flexibility.

Comparing the Wiz-20 to a Wiz-5/Mindbender-1/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-10/Wiz+2

Feats:
Wiz-20 has 3 additional bonus feats
Ur-Theurge had to spend two feats on mostly-useless stuff
Advantage: Wizard-20, by 5 feats (6, if the Ur-Theurge picks up Practiced Spellcaster to negate the caster level penalty, which is reasonably common)

Class Features:
Wiz-20 has full familiar progression.
Ur-Theurge has: Telepathy (100 feet), Rebuke Undead
Note: Most ACF that trade away the familiar don't really progress based on Wizard level, just casting level, so those are a wash.
Advantage: Ur-Theurge

Spells per Day:
Wiz-20 has 4 base spells per day of every level (4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4)
Ur-Theurge has base Arcane spells per day of: 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/3/3/2, Divine Spells-per-day of 6/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1; for a total of 10/9/9/8/8/8/8/6/5/3.
Advantage: Difficult to say. The Ur-Theurge has a LOT more low-level spells... which is where you find most of the utility effects and all-day buffs. If we focus on just the top three spell levels, we're looking at 4/4/4 vs. 6/5/3. Is one 9th level spell worth more or less than one 8th level spell and two 7th level spells? Scroll pricing would say no (one 9th markets at 3,825 gp, while one 8th and two 7th's market at 7,550 gp), but this is difficult to measure. Advantage is probably to the Ur-Theurge.
Note: Both Wizard and Ur-Theurge can go specialist or focused specialist, which has the exact same impact on spells-per-day for both of them, and this aspect is thus a wash.

Spell Access
Wiz-20: Wizard spell list.
Ur-Theurge: Wizard Spell List + Cleric Spell List.
Advantage: Ur-Theurge

So: How much do you want to weigh each category? It could very easily go either direction in isolation.

If you look at the two builds in a party environment, things become a bit more variable: If there's no actual Cleric in the group, then the Ur-Theurge has a bit of an edge over the pure Wizard, due to Cleric spell access being somewhat required. Sure, you can fake it with Limited Wish, or by purchasing scrolls of the necessary "day-after" pills and running them by UMD, but that's a continual resource drain that could be better spent elsewhere.

[faceroll]

That was the thought process of the designers when they made the Theurge but versatility and endurance, while nice, doesn't equate with raw power. Higher level slots mean more metamagic and having access to the tool to get over your problem, which the Theurge just doesn't have. He's bringing a pistol to a rocket war, which just ain't gonna cut it when the straight Wizard Time Stops, buffs up and rips the Theurge apart.

Now, there's nothing wrong with playing a Theurge, as that endurance generally means a longer working day but lacking access to the big guns can make all the difference at whatever level you're at.

Luckily, D&D isn't usually about a singular 1v1 arena battle between two highly optimized 20th level casters and there's plenty of room for versatility and endurance in a standard D&D adventure. :smallwink:


I don't think Companion Familiars are actually that out and out dangerous, honestly. It's getting most of its power from its Animal Companion side, with AH advancing its HD being the biggest part. The Familiar side is used for determining Int and Familiar specials, which aren't exactly overpowering by any means. What it comes down to is that you have a smart guardian that can actually use tactics, which I suppose could be where you're getting it being a Nasty customer but really, I don't think it holds a candle to normal Super Mount builds via Devoted Tracker and Halfling Outrider. The only neat trick I'm seeing is having it deliver a touch spell for you while it eats somebody's face like a normal companion and other shenanigans involved with familiar and companion only spells.

Sharing spells like Bite of the Werebear, Ironguard, Superior Invisibility, and Shapechange are pretty dandy. Just having all those HP means your familiar can be hanging out in Solar form laying down righteous SLAs without you having to worry that a stray fireball will wipe it out.

[Taelas]

I haven't looked into it, but wouldn't it still have half the master's hit points if it is a familiar -- regardless of its actual HD?

[Jack_Simth]

Luckily, D&D isn't usually about a singular 1v1 arena battle between two highly optimized 20th level casters and there's plenty of room for versatility and endurance in a standard D&D adventure. :smallwink:That there is.
Sharing spells like Bite of the Werebear, Ironguard, Superior Invisibility, and Shapechange are pretty dandy. Just having all those HP means your familiar can be hanging out in Solar form laying down righteous SLAs without you having to worry that a stray fireball will wipe it out.Sadly, Shapechange, Polymorph, et all SPECIFICALLY state you don't get SLA's. Shapechange will get you Su abilities, though.

[Cieyrin]

I haven't looked into it, but wouldn't it still have half the master's hit points if it is a familiar -- regardless of its actual HD?

Nah, they get HP based on their HD, like Animal Companions, so no, they're not gimped on their HP.

As for the Share Spells bit, both Animal Companions and Familiars both natively Share, it's just the Hierophant can more openly has more access to buffs from 2 lists to put on it. Druids already have the Bites on their list, they can just now throw Augment and Enhance Familiar, along with other Wizzy only spells on their slightly more pimp companion.

[faceroll]

Sadly, Shapechange, Polymorph, et all SPECIFICALLY state you don't get SLA's. Shapechange will get you Su abilities, though.

Doh. I knew that.

[Hunter Killer]

I tend to disagree that the familiar companion created by the Arcane Heirophant build I posted isn't powerful or effective.

As the character in question, I would take two flaws and get the following feats (Not all of these affect the companion, but some do):

Companion Spellbond, Feral Animal Companion, Spell-Linked Familiar, Practiced Spellcaster (Wizard), Natural Bond, Natural Spell, Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augmented Summoning, Greenbound, and Ashbound.

My animal companion would be a Fleshraker (-3 effective Druid level on the table), and it'd have the following stat-line:

Heirophant Fleshraker
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+36 (~88)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 50ft
Armor Class: 32 (+6 Dex, +6 Natural, +8 Druid Adj. +2 Barding), touch 16, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+15
Attack: Claw +15 melee (1d6+6 and poison)
Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (1d6+6 and poison), bite +13 melee (1d6+3 and disease), and tail +13 melee (1d6+3 and poison)
Space/Reach: 5'/5'
Special Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison, disease, rake 1d6+2
Special Qualities: Alertness, devotion, empathic link, link, low-light vision, scent, improved evasion, scry familiar, share spells, speak with master, speak with animals of it's kind, SR 25
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +6
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 23, Con 17, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +14, Jump +27 (What would I spend the extra SP on?)
Feats: Improved Bull Rush, Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Multiattack (Druid Bonus), Power Attack, Track, Shock Trooper
Spells (From Spell-Linked Familiar): 4 x 0th - Flare?, 3 x 1st - Shield, 2 x 2nd - Bull's Strength

It would wear Master Work Studded Leather Barding (+2 AC, no Check Penalty) because there's really no penalties for being non-proficient with it. Preferably it would have an Enhancement bonus, but I didn't include that in the stat block.

The main tactic would be to Charge into a Full Attack with Leaping Pounce. You'd use Power Attack + Shock Trooper to significantly reduce the AC and pump in a buttload of damage.

The small amount of spells from Spell-Linked Familiar would be used to provide additional first and second turn buffing in bigger combats (Share Spells + Spell-Linked = 2 Buffs /Round on this thing).

Companion Spellbond helps you keep sharing your buffs without restricting movement too much; Instead of having to be within 5' for a Share Spell, you can instead be up to 30' away.

Of minor note, Feral Companion gives this thing's bite attacks the ability to inflict the disease Red Ache, with a DC 15/Fort to resist. This is just a little extra; I took the feat for the +2 Str / +2 Con.

[Cieyrin]

Critter Build

Okay, so you have a nasty critter. Other than Spell-Linked Familiar (which isn't producing a whole hell of a lot, especially if we're just gonna take an appropriate Bite of X, which I don't think stacks with Bull's Strength, anyways), I don't see how this companion is any stronger than a straight Druid companion would be. If you're saying its stronger than a familiar in melee, then yes, yes it is, but any animal companion would be unless you go after Improved Familiars. None of the rest of the build can't be duplicated by a normal Druid. You gotta show me what about Companion Familiars is ripping this wide open, as the only thing I'm seeing it has over a similar leveled Druid companion is it has an Int score so it can think for itself, which doesn't directly translate to power boost necessarily.

I'll be sitting over here with my Natural Bonded Horrid Elephant Warbeast or possibly my Natural Bonded Yrthak. :smallbiggrin:

[Kantolin]

You could also, once you access 6th level wizard spells, use 'imbue familiar with spell ability' on your companion familiar.

[Cieyrin]

You could also, once you access 6th level wizard spells, use 'imbue familiar with spell ability' on your companion familiar.

That seems more worthwhile than Spell-Linked Familiar, since it has a higher spell level cap and can transfer more spells over, though the only benefit here is your familiar can actually take a hit and keep casting spells for you while you nuke some other poor simp.

[Kantolin]

though the only benefit here is your familiar can actually take a hit and keep casting spells for you while you nuke some other poor simp.

Do you mean 'over a normal familiar'? If so, yes, but that's a fairly significant advantage. ^_^ It's essentially 'Quicken X nonpersonal spells'.

It also means your druid companion can get twice the buffs up at once (You cast bite of the X, your companion casts haste, your companion thus gets both in one round and can go nuts promptly thereafter). This isn't nearly as useful for a normal familiar, who tends to still be glass.

[Cieyrin]

Do you mean 'over a normal familiar'? If so, yes, but that's a fairly significant advantage. ^_^ It's essentially 'Quicken X nonpersonal spells'.

It also means your druid companion can get twice the buffs up at once (You cast bite of the X, your companion casts haste, your companion thus gets both in one round and can go nuts promptly thereafter). This isn't nearly as useful for a normal familiar, who tends to still be glass.

Hmm...I wonder how worthwhile it would be to dip Arcane Heirophant in a Super Mount build...does Sword of the Arcane Order change your pally/ranger spells to arcane so you pick up a familiar with the feat?

[Hunter Killer]

Come to think of it the critter build I posted probably isn't the most powerful, but I was on the sauce while I was writing that up. :smallwink:

Eh... The one major thing I missed when I was initially talking up the potential benefits of Familiar Companion was that the familiar side didn't also add in it's AC bonus. If it did that, it might be a lot better.

Still, it's not bad. Being able to combine familiar and companion feats and effects (like Imbue Spell-Link Ability) was the point I was try to get at.

I wonder... How do you guys think Spell Stitched Familiar would work with the Familiar Companion ability? If it does indeed work, giving your companion the Undead Subtype and d12 Hit Dice might not be too bad, although it would decrease BAB.

[Kojiro]

Okay, this isn't worth its own topic, so I'm just using this one. Apart from begging the DM to make Mystic Theurge a fifteen level class instead of ten, or using an absurd amount of extra prestige classes, is there any way to get ninth level spells on both the arcane and divine sides here? Specifically, I'm looking at Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge(/something), with the goal of being able to cast, well, anything (minus a few bard-specific spells I suppose). Part of the character concept, and would have some neat tricks (like Improved Counterspell plus that divine spells have schools too meaning that you could easily stop almost anything for quite a while).

Also, I've seen people referencing somehow entering the class with only one level in one of the two base classes, without any explanation as to how that works. What exactly are they pulling there to make this possible?

[Ravens_cry]

Cheese, major, major cheese. Gorgonzola, no, Casu marzu, level cheese. It requires Gumby as your DM, and you to be a fully inducted member of the freaking Lollipop Guild. If you are not already, they send you a membership card.

[kardar233]

Okay, this isn't worth its own topic, so I'm just using this one. Apart from begging the DM to make Mystic Theurge a fifteen level class instead of ten, or using an absurd amount of extra prestige classes, is there any way to get ninth level spells on both the arcane and divine sides here? Specifically, I'm looking at Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge(/something), with the goal of being able to cast, well, anything (minus a few bard-specific spells I suppose). Part of the character concept, and would have some neat tricks (like Improved Counterspell plus that divine spells have schools too meaning that you could easily stop almost anything for quite a while).

Well there's the classic method of using a dual-progression class on two prestige classes that give 9th-level spells; the usual ones being Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest. You don't get that many spells, and you're DAD so you won't be getting as many bonus spells, but it's pretty nice having two sets of 9ths.

[Kojiro]

Hm. I think I'll just ask if Archivist 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 14 is alright; already going with a subpar prestige class, and getting those last spells wouldn't be as broken as throwing in, say, Dweomerkeeper or something for those last four levels.

Also, I just realized that, since this character's goal is to have pretty much every spell recorded and whatnot, and both classes use spellbooks (prayer books) to record their magic... This character is going to be carrying a lot of books around. I predict that over fifty percent of his carrying capacity (while still a light load, of course) will simply be books and casting materials. The character will be a walking library.

Edit: Of course, I'm still interested in actually making a "legitimate" version of this; it's good to learn, and I won't always be playing with close friends who would let this kind of thing fly.

[Kobold-Bard]

Hm. I think I'll just ask if Archivist 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 14 is alright; already going with a subpar prestige class, and getting those last spells wouldn't be as broken as throwing in, say, Dweomerkeeper or something for those last four levels.

Also, I just realized that, since this character's goal is to have pretty much every spell recorded and whatnot, and both classes use spellbooks (prayer books) to record their magic... This character is going to be carrying a lot of books around. I predict that over fifty percent of his carrying capacity (while still a light load, of course) will simply be books and casting materials. The character will be a walking library.

...

Blessed Books & a Handy Haversack (feeeeaaaarrrr non-OGL names :smalltongue:) take care of the walking library thing.

[Jack_Simth]

Okay, this isn't worth its own topic, so I'm just using this one. Apart from begging the DM to make Mystic Theurge a fifteen level class instead of ten, or using an absurd amount of extra prestige classes, is there any way to get ninth level spells on both the arcane and divine sides here? Specifically, I'm looking at Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge(/something), with the goal of being able to cast, well, anything (minus a few bard-specific spells I suppose). Part of the character concept, and would have some neat tricks (like Improved Counterspell plus that divine spells have schools too meaning that you could easily stop almost anything for quite a while).

Also, I've seen people referencing somehow entering the class with only one level in one of the two base classes, without any explanation as to how that works. What exactly are they pulling there to make this possible?

Let's see... early entry cheddar would make it so that the lost caster levels from a few levels of True Necromancer don't prevent you from getting double 9's... maybe.

[Darth_Versity]

Also, I've seen people referencing somehow entering the class with only one level in one of the two base classes, without any explanation as to how that works. What exactly are they pulling there to make this possible?

Its simple really. The requirement is to be able to cast second lvl spells. Sanctum Spell allows you to prepare and cast a first lvl spell as a second level spell while in your sanctum, thus you can now cast a second level spell (even though its froma first level slot)

most DMs would hit you with the DMG just for trying that though, so precocious apprentice (complete arcane 181) actually gives a second level spell slot to an arcane caster. So you now qualify on the arcane side and just need 3 archivist levels to get 2nd lvl divine spells. Its not actually all that cheesy.

[darksolitaire]

Let's see... early entry cheddar would make it so that the lost caster levels from a few levels of True Necromancer don't prevent you from getting double 9's... maybe.

You need to pick turn undead from somewhere, I'm afraid, and Death domain, so archivist doesn't work. True Necromancer is 13/13 class at 14 levels, so without early entry from both sides, you can't have double nines.

[Taelas]

Let's see... early entry cheddar would make it so that the lost caster levels from a few levels of True Necromancer don't prevent you from getting double 9's... maybe.

Hmn. Nope.

Wizard 2/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14 is the most optimal configuration I can see, and it loses 4 divine caster levels, 3 arcane (and uses Heighten Spell/Sanctum Spell cheese). (Wizard 1/Archivist 2 is of course also a consideration.)

You can't enter Mystic Theurge as Wizard 1/Archivist 1 unless you manage to put together 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) by then... which isn't possible, as far as I know, even using cheese. (I know only of one way to get a single rank beyond the normal limit, and you'd need two.)

EDIT: Of course, Archivist doesn't allow entry into True Necromancer, as the poster just above me pointed out, so it's moot. But True Necromancer gives only 12 caster levels over 14 levels (it loses a divine level at level 1 and 6, and an arcane level at level 2 and 7).

[dextercorvia]

Hmn. Nope.

Wizard 2/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14 is the most optimal configuration I can see, and it loses 4 divine caster levels, 3 arcane (and uses Heighten Spell/Sanctum Spell cheese). (Wizard 1/Archivist 2 is of course also a consideration.)

You can't enter Mystic Theurge as Wizard 1/Archivist 1 unless you manage to put together 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) by then... which isn't possible, as far as I know, even using cheese. (I know only of one way to get a single rank beyond the normal limit, and you'd need two.)

EDIT: Of course, Archivist doesn't allow entry into True Necromancer, as the poster just above me pointed out, so it's moot. But True Necromancer gives only 12 caster levels over 14 levels (it loses a divine level at level 1 and 6, and an arcane level at level 2 and 7).

You can get Wizard1/Archivist1/Mystic TheurgeX with level drain shenanigans. Not recommending it....

[Grim Reader]

most DMs would hit you with the DMG just for trying that though, so precocious apprentice (complete arcane 181) actually gives a second level spell slot to an arcane caster. So you now qualify on the arcane side and just need 3 archivist levels to get 2nd lvl divine spells. Its not actually all that cheesy.

Actually, your second level arcane spell turns into an extra divine spell slot when you hit Archivist 3, so it doesn't work.

[Darth_Versity]

Actually, your second level arcane spell turns into an extra divine spell slot when you hit Archivist 3, so it doesn't work.

I have never seen how that interpretation works, i know the wording of the spell says that you lose the benefits of the feat when you get second level spells, but any sane person can clearly see that it applies to the casting class that the feat applies to, not a different one.

If a DM ruled that way against me i'd smack him with the PHB!

[dextercorvia]

Actually, your second level arcane spell turns into an extra divine spell slot when you hit Archivist 3, so it doesn't work.

That's why you do it with a Focused Specialist or Elven Generalist, so that you automatically lose the benefit of PA, and then gain extra 2nd level Wizard slots.

[Veyr]

You can't enter Mystic Theurge as Wizard 1/Archivist 1 unless you manage to put together 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) by then... which isn't possible, as far as I know, even using cheese. (I know only of one way to get a single rank beyond the normal limit, and you'd need two.)
Inspire Greatness plus Psychic Reformation will do it. But your DM would have to be looking for Team Solar to allow that.

[Grim Reader]

I have never seen how that interpretation works, i know the wording of the spell says that you lose the benefits of the feat when you get second level spells, but any sane person can clearly see that it applies to the casting class that the feat applies to, not a different one.

If a DM ruled that way against me i'd smack him with the PHB!

Live by RAW, die by RAW.

You can't use an RAW argument for early entry into a PrC and then call RAI when RAW doesn't qualify you.In this case, neither RAW nor RAi gets you the early entry.

Also, PA was specifically ruled not to qualify as casting second-level spells, due to giving a "chance" to cast them, not the "ability" to. A...strechy call in my opinion. Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell specifically do work though.

[Optimator]

The image of a dire tiger delivering Otto's Irresistible Dance or Mummify is priceless. Arcane Hierophant rules.

[Jack_Simth]

Hmn. Nope.

Wizard 2/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 3/True Necromancer 14 is the most optimal configuration I can see, and it loses 4 divine caster levels, 3 arcane (and uses Heighten Spell/Sanctum Spell cheese). (Wizard 1/Archivist 2 is of course also a consideration.)

You can't enter Mystic Theurge as Wizard 1/Archivist 1 unless you manage to put together 6 ranks in Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) by then... which isn't possible, as far as I know, even using cheese. (I know only of one way to get a single rank beyond the normal limit, and you'd need two.)

EDIT: Of course, Archivist doesn't allow entry into True Necromancer, as the poster just above me pointed out, so it's moot. But True Necromancer gives only 12 caster levels over 14 levels (it loses a divine level at level 1 and 6, and an arcane level at level 2 and 7).
Ah, so you'd need an Illuman Wizard-1/Cleric-1 with that particular Improved Sigil that raises the effective spell level, combined with hiring a Bard to Inspire Greatness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm#inspireGreatness) on you while a hired Psion manifests a Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm) on you to reassign your skill points while you're treated as being two levels higher.

So you end up with a Wizard-1/Cleric-1/Mystic Theurge-4/True Necromancer-14 at 20th level, casting as a Wizard-17 and a Cleric-17.

[Kojiro]

Okay, another Theurge question. Going with the Archivist/Wizard/Mystic Theurge build, two feats for familiar stuff (Obtain Familiar for MT levels to apply and Improved/Dragon Familiar because heck yes, who cares if it isn't optimized), Practiced Spellcaster twice (can you use it on MT too?), and using Battle Wizard to replace the redundant Scribe Scroll with Improved Initiative or something. What other feats are worthwhile? Assume up to two flaw feats are available, non-human race (specifically Gray Elf). Improved Counterspell seems nice, as divine spells can be used too, but other than that I am completely lost when it comes to magic feats. Anyone able to help me please?

Edit: Also has the level one Elf variant wizard level, although that doesn't affect this at all.

[Kefkafreak]

Maybe some metamagics or spell penetration? (I notice that when I don't take spell penetration at low levels, I won't take it at all, because there are way better options at high levels, and then the DM starts throwing high SR monsters at me)

[Cieyrin]

Practiced Spellcaster twice (can you use it on MT too?)

Practiced Spellcaster only applies to classes with their own spellcasting, not to classes that advance spellcasting. Basically, you could get Practiced Spellcaster(Suel Arcanamach) but not Practiced Spellcaster (Abjurant Champion).

[Kojiro]

Figured as much. Worth asking, though. Thanks.

[Kojiro]

Double-posting, sorry; so much time has gone by though, and it's actually relevant, so, yeah.

On the Archivist/Wizard start, without early-entry stuff (the campaign is pretty low-optimization with almost entirely new players; I'm probably in the top three most experienced, actually, and that's saying something) and with a fifteen (effectively fourteen due to entry time and level cap) level MT (DM is fine with it), I had a few (more) questions.

First, which level is better to take first, Archivist or Wizard? I would assume the former, what with better hit dice, skills, and so on, but most people seem to start these builds with Wizard when I look around, and I'm wondering why.

Second, again, feats; no bonus feat due to Gray Elf, but up to two flaws. Is Improved Initiative the best Fighter feat to take (since, again, redundant Scribe Scrolls from both classes is not good) or are there better options, what other choices would be good, and so on. Again, I am just completely at a loss when it comes to magic feats, and metamagic with prepared casting seems like it takes a good amount of planning too, so if metamagic's a good goal, any advice on that?

Third, any spell recommendations? I understand the value of things like Color Spray and Grease and such over most big explosion things, but still. This character will probably be the group's primary spellcaster; we're actually having two parties in this world, with the DMs sorting characters between the two before the campaign starts based on synergy and avoiding competition, so while the character may party with, say, a Healer and a Hexblade, a Sorcerer or Cleric would probably be in the other party.

Last, well, just any advice in general? I suppose I shouldn't be too worried since this is a low-optimization game, but I've heard quite a bit of bad things about the Mystic Theurge. Also heard that it's still better than most non-casters, though, which goes back to the shouldn't be worried stuff. Anyway, yeah. Advice for a 3/3/14 here? Thank you very much in advance.

[dextercorvia]

You have Mystic Theurge extended to 14 levels? That fixes the (IMO) biggest problem with it. I think the reason you tend to see Wizard first, is that a lot of the goto early entry works better with that class. I'm a big fan of Archivist first. As you said, better skill points, and you want those Knowledges maxed out. Better HD is nice, and you have all the spell slots of a (non-Focused) specialist wizard.

Improved Initiative is probably the best 1st level replacement for Scribe Scroll, but since we are taking Archivist first, we will have a non-zero IL at Wizard1. That makes Martial Study my pick. Going Archivist3/Wizard1 will let you have your pick of Action Before Thought or Shadow Jaunt. If we weren't going to be so skill starved, Baffling Defense could be worthwhile.

[Cieyrin]

You have Mystic Theurge extended to 14 levels? That fixes the (IMO) biggest problem with it. I think the reason you tend to see Wizard first, is that a lot of the goto early entry works better with that class. I'm a big fan of Archivist first. As you said, better skill points, and you want those Knowledges maxed out. Better HD is nice, and you have all the spell slots of a (non-Focused) specialist wizard.

Improved Initiative is probably the best 1st level replacement for Scribe Scroll, but since we are taking Archivist first, we will have a non-zero IL at Wizard1. That makes Martial Study my pick. Going Archivist3/Wizard1 will let you have your pick of Action Before Thought or Shadow Jaunt. If we weren't going to be so skill starved, Baffling Defense could be worthwhile.

If the entry method is Precocious Apprentice, you need Wizard 1 to be 1st level, as that feat's first level only.

[dextercorvia]

If the entry method is Precocious Apprentice, you need Wizard 1 to be 1st level, as that feat's first level only.

Right. But, he isn't doing any early entry, and that is one of the more inefficient (and debatable) forms of EE.

[Graytemplar]

honestly, why not consider a geomancer, basically amped up mystic theurge plus additional martial abilities called drift. Plus, you can "blend" the specific rules for spellcasting. Allowing you to use a holy symbol in lew of material components. or cast arcane spells as if they were divine, (no somatic component = full plate fireballs!) the possibilities are endless. You'd still have to take a few preliminary levels in arcane and divine classes to make the prereq's, or work something out with ur DM, like praying to Mystra for spells, but its still my go-to class for an arcane/divine caster.

[Graytemplar]

its in complete divine i think

[dextercorvia]

honestly, why not consider a geomancer, basically amped up mystic theurge plus additional martial abilities called drift. Plus, you can "blend" the specific rules for spellcasting. Allowing you to use a holy symbol in lew of material components. or cast arcane spells as if they were divine, (no somatic component = full plate fireballs!) the possibilities are endless. You'd still have to take a few preliminary levels in arcane and divine classes to make the prereq's, or work something out with ur DM, like praying to Mystra for spells, but its still my go-to class for an arcane/divine caster.

It only advances one side of your spellcasting.

[Kojiro]

Right, the idea is to master arcane and divine magic, not to make a divine-flavored arcane caster or the reverse.

Anyway, thanks for the help.

[Hunter Killer]

I think that the best way to do it without too much cheese would be something like this build:

Wizard X / Arcane PrC X / Ur-Priest or Divine Crusader 1 / Mystic Theurge 9

Gets you 19th level caster progression in Wizard while giving you full 1-9 Divine spells (Granted, Divine Crusader is really limited; If you can be evil then Ur-Priest is the way to go).

Otherwise, I just don't know if there's a way to do something that's not going to nerf your caster levels without early entry cheese. Accelerated progression, as mentioned earlier, is the way to make Theurge good.

I don't know if it's possible to start this Divine and go into Arcane... The only two accelerated Arcane casters I can think of are Sublime Chord and Beholder Mage. One requires a more Arcane focused build, and other would use stinkier cheese than the early entry cheddar.

Mystic Theurge theorizing is fun! :smallbiggrin:

[Cornelius Grim]

The Ur-Priest sounds useful, but, I can't be evil. Gotta be neutral or good. So that pokes a huge hole in the build everyone is suggesting. :smallsigh: Sorry it took me 4 pages to tell you guys this.

[Kojiro]

Hm, that looks somewhat interesting, yes; Ur-Priest definitely isn't an option in mine either, sadly, since the characters are mostly good and the character concept in question is neutral at worst (generally decent, if a bit detached, polite and such and has good goals, but when it comes to magical knowledge and items... Well, there's a reason the character carries a crowbar and prepares Expeditious Retreat at least once a day), but I'll look into Divine Crusader. Also, since I'm a secondary DM in the campaign I'm participating in (two parties, I'm in one and helping to DM the other), a more effective MT build could make an interesting character (especially as a villain with Ur-Priest), although it wouldn't be level 20 likely. Learning how all this stuff works is really interesting, too; as seen here, I'm not exactly the best character builder.

[Cornelius Grim]

Me neither, Kojiro. I am just awful at coming up with character builds, and the majority of builds have a LOT of classes that I can't do without feeling like it's unnecessary. I got one made now though, so my next character's gonna be awesome. :smallamused:

[Taelas]

Right. But, he isn't doing any early entry, and that is one of the more inefficient (and debatable) forms of EE.

All early entry tricks are debatable, but Precocious Apprentice is one of the better ones, as it actually casts 2nd-level spells. Sanctum Spell/Heighten Spell+Earth Spell do not, they just cast a lower-level spell as if it were higher.

[dextercorvia]

All early entry tricks are debatable, but Precocious Apprentice is one of the better ones, as it actually casts 2nd-level spells. Sanctum Spell/Heighten Spell+Earth Spell do not, they just cast a lower-level spell as if it were higher.


Precocious Apprentice
Inefficient: It only applies to one side. Also, the feat is practically worthless after about 6th level, maybe 8th on a Mystic Theurge.

Debatable: Single vs. Plural, self referencing denial "When you become able to cast 2nd level spells...", and since you have to get Archivist to 2nd level spells, does that invalidate Precocious Apprentice.

Sanctum Spell has that pesky effective text, but at least it applies to both sides. Heighten Spell and it's derivatives have no difficulty since a Heightened spell is actually that level. The problem with them is that they are usually feat inefficient.

Which is why my goto early entry is Versatile Spellcaster. It requires a supporting feat for Archivist/Wizard Mystic Theurge, either Alacritous Cogitation, or Spontaneous X from Complete Divine. The plus side, is that it allows you to learn higher level spells earlier (at level up you can scribe any spell you could cast), it retains it's usefulness and the RAW is unquestionable. Personally, I think it is worth going Cloistered Cleric/Wizard for MT because: a) You save the feat on spontaneous casting, and b) you get to spontaneously cast from the entire cleric list. The main problem with it, is that its too good. So, rather than being viewed as a Mystic Theurge fix, it is liable to result in head injuries.

[FMArthur]

All early entry tricks are debatable, but Precocious Apprentice is one of the better ones, as it actually casts 2nd-level spells. Sanctum Spell/Heighten Spell+Earth Spell do not, they just cast a lower-level spell as if it were higher.

It wouldn't be "as if it were higher" if it didn't count as such wherever it does not detail the exceptions to its behavior as a higher-level spell. They would have said "+1 to save DCs" if that was the only thing you should treat the spell as higher for. Sanctum Spell works. Earth Spell works. So does Improved Sigil: Krau, and so does Versatile Spellcaster. Is it overpowered? Yeah, sometimes. So what? Houserule it. That's what house rules are for. But don't pretend for a second that it's part of the original rules not to work.

[Taelas]

They are debatable, whether you like it or not. Both feats are vague enough that you can rule either way without house rules.

[dextercorvia]

They are debatable, whether you like it or not. Both feats are vague enough that you can rule either way without house rules.

Your statement is debatable. Being debatable doesn't mean that both arguments have equal weight.

[Maho-Tsukai]

My personal favorite MT early entry is Alternate Source Spell, but that's from dragon magazine, which has a rather bad wrap and as a result may not be excepted at some tables.

Anyway, if you REALLY want 9ths on both sides you could always go Wizard/DRUID and take both Arcane Herophant AND MT. If you don't want a druidic entry if you take Bamboo Spiritfolk as your race to get Trackless Step you could go something like Wizard 3/Cleric 1/MT 6/AH 10 or Cleric 3/Wizard 1/ MT 6/AH 10, depending on which side you want to be at 20. In the end, the class you start with 3 levels in ends up being a full level 20 while the other ends up being at 17, the minimum needed for 9ths, meaning you have 9ths on both sides by level 20. Of course, this is assuming that you use early entry, which you should be anyway.

[Cog]

If you don't want a druidic entry if you take Bamboo Spiritfolk as your race to get Trackless Step...
Arcane Hierophant requires Trackless Step as a class feature, so a racial ability won't get you in.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Darn, I forgot it had to be a as a class feature. In that case the only ways I can see to obtain a theurge with 9ths on both sideds would be either wizard/druid/MT/AH or Wizard/Ur-Priest/MT.

[Cieyrin]

Alternatively, Wizard/Shadowcaster/Noctumancer/Mystic Theurge will also get you double 9s by 20.

[Godskook]

I think that the best way to do it without too much cheese would be something like this build:

Personally, I consider progressing a prestige class' spellcasting with another's to be a high form of cheese, especially in cases related to double-9s. 'Course, my houserules also ban Ur-Priest and Beholder Mage entirely, and any desires to play Sublime Chord or Divine Crusader is met with a "you gotta behave with this" comment.

[Hunter Killer]

Personally, I consider progressing a prestige class' spellcasting with another's to be a high form of cheese, especially in cases related to double-9s. 'Course, my houserules also ban Ur-Priest and Beholder Mage entirely, and any desires to play Sublime Chord or Divine Crusader is met with a "you gotta behave with this" comment.

How is it cheesy? :smallconfused:

I always considered cheesy to be something that mucked around in the grey area of RAW/RAI. The early entry stuff, for instance, is something I would call cheese because it's RAW but not really RAI. Advancing spell casing is pretty cut-and-dry both by RAW and RAI, even if you are advancing a prestige.

[Kojiro]

Actually, I can see where that's coming from. Look at the core books; apart from Assassin, were there any PrCs that had their own spellcasting progression? While I haven't seen any official word on it either way or anything so I can't say for sure, it is possible that WotC simply didn't consider applying PrCs to other PrCs. I myself can't really argue against it, at least until I see something official about it, but for that and a few other reasons I can understand where the idea would come from.

[Cornelius Grim]

Edit: Wow, somehow posted in the wrong topic. Ignore this, sorry.

You can delete your post while you're editing it. :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

Actually, I can see where that's coming from. Look at the core books; apart from Assassin, were there any PrCs that had their own spellcasting progression? While I haven't seen any official word on it either way or anything so I can't say for sure, it is possible that WotC simply didn't consider applying PrCs to other PrCs. I myself can't really argue against it, at least until I see something official about it, but for that and a few other reasons I can understand where the idea would come from.

They definitely considered it -- Chameleon disallows using certain class features as prereq's because even they realized that would break stuff.

[Godskook]

How is it cheesy? :smallconfused:

I always considered cheesy to be something that mucked around in the grey area of RAW/RAI. The early entry stuff, for instance, is something I would call cheese because it's RAW but not really RAI. Advancing spell casing is pretty cut-and-dry both by RAW and RAI, even if you are advancing a prestige.

Cheesy is a term that exists outside of D&D(especially where I learned it). Its basically finding something that's uber-powerful but at the same time is super easy to use. I learned the term as it applies in SSF2 turbo, where someone finds a spammable ability that's hard to counter but has both great range and low risk. Gaining full cleric casting in 10 levels whithout deviating far from your regularly scheduled build for more than a level or 2 is really, really cheesy.

[Hunter Killer]

Gaining full cleric casting in 10 levels whithout deviating far from your regularly scheduled build for more than a level or 2 is really, really cheesy.
It's not full Cleric casting, though. It's got a lot less casting per day than a full Cleric does and no access to domains. That's pretty significant.

In my opinion, the only time Ur-Priest is really cheesed is when you enter it before 10th level, because then you're getting 9th level spells before the full casters.

In the build I posted, Ur-Priest is perfectly reasonable. It's not trying for early 9th level spell cheese; Just double 9's at 20th for some giggles. :smallwink:

If you think about it, the build lacks any real class abilities past 10th level. That means it's only really getting spells and spell slots. That makes it a lot less powerful than some Wizard builds that lay on the metamagic.

I guess I still just don't see the cheese here... :smallconfused:

[Godskook]

They definitely considered it -- Chameleon disallows using certain class features as prereq's because even they realized that would break stuff.

Chameleon was released in 2004. 3rd edition was released in 2000. If you're wanting to prove that they considered it before the player-base did, could you find an example that's at least 3.5 core, or even better, 3E core.


I guess I still just don't see the cheese here... :smallconfused:

Actually, its 95% that you're convinced what I'm calling cheese isn't cheese. That's fine, but that's a difference of opinion between you and I.

[dextercorvia]

Chameleon was released in 2004. 3rd edition was released in 2000. If you're wanting to prove that they considered it before the player-base did, could you find an example that's at least 3.5 core, or even better, 3E core.

3.5 was released in July 2003, and Mystic Theurge that we are talking about was reprinted along with it. Ur Priest (Complete Divine) was re-released in May 2004, just months before Chameleon (Races of Destiny) in December 2004, and Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) was printed in November 2004. They knew that PrC casting could be advanced with other PrC's by that point -- as you said, it was 3 years into 3e-- and chose not to change the wording of Mystic Theurge, Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest when they were released in 3.5.

[Cornelius Grim]

We're only going up to about 13th level in this group (judging from past experience), so all of these horribly unnecessarily complicated builds with almost five classes is really starting to get redundant. If anyone has any real reason as to why Mystic Theurge is bad, besides just being 1 spell level lower and 3 caster levels lower, it'd be great to hear some. I don't think that's too bad of a thing for a lot of spells per day and many spells to choose from.

Main Point of this Post: What, in detail, without any terribly long line of classes/feats or anything, is wrong with the Mystic Theurge? :smallconfused:

[Divide by Zero]

Main Point of this Post: What, in detail, without any terribly long line of classes/feats or anything, is wrong with the Mystic Theurge? :smallconfused:

Higher level spells make you much, much more powerful than having more low level slots, especially when you factor in MAD. I wouldn't say it's bad, necessarily, since you're probably still ahead of most mundanes, but it's far behind any single-classed full caster unless you use early entry tricks. And it really should be a 14-level class.

[RandomNPC]

Don't want to dig to see if it's been done, but here's my take on the Theurge.

Gestalt.

Cleric3//Wizard3
Cleric5//Theurge5
Wizard5//Theurge5

at 13th level you're two 18th level casters.

[dextercorvia]

Consider Bill, a Conjurer3/Archivist3/MysticTheurge1. Bill has spells per day of 5/4/3 and 4/4/3 or combined --> 9/8/6.

Now consider Ted, a Conjurer7. Ted has spells per day of 5/5/4/3/2.

At that level, 0 level spells are fairly inconsequential. An extra Message or Sending is nice, but not necessary. Ted has 3 less 1st level and 2 less 2nd level spells than Bill, but he has 3 more 3rd level and 2 more 4th level than Bill. I know which I would pick.

It evens out a little later on, but being 1.5 spell levels behind really hurts your firepower. And, unless you take Practiced Spellcaster twice, your CL really hurts. Less damage, more dispel vulnerability.

[Divide by Zero]

Don't want to dig to see if it's been done, but here's my take on the Theurge.

Gestalt.

Cleric3//Wizard3
Cleric5//Theurge5
Wizard5//Theurge5

at 13th level you're two 18th level casters.

Gestalt doesn't work that way, and dual-progression classes are usually banned anyway.

[Cieyrin]

Main Point of this Post: What, in detail, without any terribly long line of classes/feats or anything, is wrong with the Mystic Theurge? :smallconfused:

Alright, we'll make this simple, then, using your campaign's likely level cap.

Cleric/Druid/Wizard 13: Casts 7th level spells, can throw around between 29-40 spells at minimum a day, 3-5 of which are her highest 2 levels of spells.

Sorcerer 13: Casts 6th level spells, can throw around 43 spells at minimum a day, ~10 of which are his 2 highest levels of spells.

Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 7: Casts as a Wizard 10/Cleric 10, can cast 5th level spells of both power types, throws around 29 divine and 22 arcane spells at minimum, for a total of 51 spells a day, 12 of which are her highest 2 levels of spells.

So basically, our straight casters are throwing around Limited Wishes, Blasphemies, Fire Storms and Disintegrates, our Theurge here has Cones of Cold and Flamestrikes. Yes, she'll be able to go through one more encounter a day potentially but she's using spells that were so last year, the spells everyone else was using 4 levels ago that she just got. She's not one but two spell levels behind and using them less effectively than the straight casters are (CL-3).

Let's look at 7th level, when our Theurge finally got into her class, Wizard 3/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge 1. The full casters are gaining 4th level spells and she's still playing around with 2nd level spells, which don't have a lot of bang for their buck. No Dim Doors, no Divine Power, No Evard's Black Tentacles, you got Scorching Rays and Hold Persons. You're playing second fiddle to the full casters, who probably have to hold her hand while she plays catch up, which she'll do for the rest of her career.

That's why Mystic Theurge is considered bad. This isn't even going into having multiple casting stats to deal with, the enhancement items to buff them both up, et cetera. It gets slightly better with cheese and is much better than the alternative (Wizard 7/Cleric 6, 4th and 3rd level spells) but that's not saying much. Versatility only helps if the spells you're throwing around are actually useful at your level of play, which the Theurge lags behind on most of the time.

[MeeposFire]

Just realize that "bad" is a little bit of hyperbole. The MT is good compared to most of the game it is just weaker than the casters you make it out of. Less bad and more "you are effectively trading away power and upper level versatility for a more broad spread of casting versatility". Even a standard MT is still exceptional compared to your more mundane fellows.

[Cieyrin]

Just realize that "bad" is a little bit of hyperbole. The MT is good compared to most of the game it is just weaker than the casters you make it out of. Less bad and more "you are effectively trading away power and upper level versatility for a more broad spread of casting versatility". Even a standard MT is still exceptional compared to your more mundane fellows.

Well yes, if you want to run your Mystic Theurge as a support character, it actually works rather well, as there's plenty of low level buffs you can throw on people and you can take advantage of some spells being lower level on different lists. If you want to play rocket tag with the big kids, you're probably out of luck, as they have bigger rockets than you do and, at 11th level, any of them can completely ignore you by throwing up a Globe of Invulnerability, since all your spells are 4th and lower. Being behind in level just hurts in the power game.

[MeeposFire]

Well yes, if you want to run your Mystic Theurge as a support character, it actually works rather well, as there's plenty of low level buffs you can throw on people and you can take advantage of some spells being lower level on different lists. If you want to play rocket tag with the big kids, you're probably out of luck, as they have bigger rockets than you do and, at 11th level, any of them can completely ignore you by throwing up a Globe of Invulnerability, since all your spells are 4th and lower. Being behind in level just hurts in the power game.

Of course it hurts compared to a straight wizard which I fully admit but that does not make a class bad, certainly not in the way people are saying it. This sort of discussion in middish 3.5 where everybody on the boards were saying "sorcerers suck" because they were not as good as a wizard. Sorcerers got a bad rep for a long time when really sorcs are better than most of the classes in the game. The MT is getting the same treatment. It weakens a full caster a bit but the result is still better than most of the classes in the game so I think calling it "bad" is just a little excessive.

In addition I do agree support is a great way to go with the MT. Trying to be a blaster is foolish with a MT and it makes little sense since the arcanists classes are normally considered better blasters than the divine classes for the most part so it should be figured diluting the arcane side would make you weaker in that regard.

[Cornelius Grim]

Of course it hurts compared to a straight wizard which I fully admit but that does not make a class bad, certainly not in the way people are saying it. This sort of discussion in middish 3.5 where everybody on the boards were saying "sorcerers suck" because they were not as good as a wizard. Sorcerers got a bad rep for a long time when really sorcs are better than most of the classes in the game. The MT is getting the same treatment. It weakens a full caster a bit but the result is still better than most of the classes in the game so I think calling it "bad" is just a little excessive.

In addition I do agree support is a great way to go with the MT. Trying to be a blaster is foolish with a MT and it makes little sense since the arcanists classes are normally considered better blasters than the divine classes for the most part so it should be figured diluting the arcane side would make you weaker in that regard.


This. Thank you! Someone who doesn't beat up the MT! For 1 thing, our group is low optimization sort of. So, we already had a Blaster sorcerer so I'm going for support, and weakening enemies with spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, and Touch of Fatigue. Not to mention I'm using negative level Fell Drain spells, and there's houseruling involved so don't mention the problems with it. So I can make this character do about as good as the Sorcerer does at damage with my weakening. Basically, I can make this character work as a support and utility guy. Thank you, Meepos, for understanding this. :smallsmile:

[MeeposFire]

This. Thank you! Someone who doesn't beat up the MT! For 1 thing, our group is low optimization sort of. So, we already had a Blaster sorcerer so I'm going for support, and weakening enemies with spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, and Touch of Fatigue. Not to mention I'm using negative level Fell Drain spells, and there's houseruling involved so don't mention the problems with it. So I can make this character do about as good as the Sorcerer does at damage with my weakening. Basically, I can make this character work as a support and utility guy. Thank you, Meepos, for understanding this. :smallsmile:

Do note however I am saying that it does explicitly weaken the classes you use as a base. Fortunately the base is so powerful a little weakening isn't the end of the world with proper planning and skillful playing.

[Cornelius Grim]

Do note however I am saying that it does explicitly weaken the classes you use as a base. Fortunately the base is so powerful a little weakening isn't the end of the world with proper planning and skillful playing.

I realize this. I rolled explicitly high for stats, so that chips off part of the issue. More bonus spells. But I still realize I'll be behind blaster in damage. I'm not going for high optimization though.

[Cieyrin]

So, we already had a Blaster sorcerer so I'm going for support, and weakening enemies with spells like Ray of Enfeeblement, and Touch of Fatigue. Not to mention I'm using negative level Fell Drain spells, and there's houseruling involved so don't mention the problems with it.

There's problems with Fell Drain? Fell Drain Magic Missiles are scary business, except mayhaps against undead or high SR critters, which you'll have some problems with. Regardless, energy drain is good for taking people down a couple notches, though using them sparingly may be wise to keep the DM from throwing immune enemies at you all the time and making your fellow adventurer's lives difficult as well.

[Cornelius Grim]

There's problems with Fell Drain? Fell Drain Magic Missiles are scary business, except mayhaps against undead or high SR critters, which you'll have some problems with. Regardless, energy drain is good for taking people down a couple notches, though using them sparingly may be wise to keep the DM from throwing immune enemies at you all the time and making your fellow adventurer's lives difficult as well.

Well, we're starting at level 1, but he lets us use bonus slots go enhance a spell to 3rd level or whatever and not be able to cast 3rd level spells, but with bonus spells we can cast it at level 1. That's the problem with it is our DM houserules that. So otherwise, no problem. Energy Drain at level 1. A magic missile to the face is instant kill. Only problem is it turns into a wight... Ah well.