Greenhilt family fortune.

[KingofMadCows]

So both Roy's father and grandfather were adventurers. We don't know how powerful Horace was but Eugene was a pretty high level wizard. So shouldn't the Greenhilt family be rich?

What happened to all the treasures and magical items Roy's father and grandfather got from adventuring? Most of Eugene's equipment was probably left for Julia since she's a wizard too but unless they lived an extremely opulent lifestyle, there has to be other valuable stuff left.

[Qwertystop]

If the mother had no day job of some sort, it would go away fairly fast. Then, there's the cost of Fighter and Wizard schools for Roy and Julia, plus their starting equipment.

[Tulya]

It also seems like a safe bet that Eugene set aside a fairly large sum for his favorite child to pay her way through a prestigious Wizard University.

Most of an adventurer's Wealth-by-Level is in the form of magic items. I could see a retired adventurer consuming their liquid assets rapidly to allow their family to live comfortably and succeed in life.

[Kareasint]

Eugene could also have made items to sell to finance sending his kids to school.

[KingofMadCows]

Living an extravagant life for an adventurer only costs 200 gp per month. That means staying in luxury suites, dining on the finest food, lots of wine, and some servants to tend to your needs. A family could easily live a very comfortable life with that and high level adventurers have tens of thousands of gps. They're basically the millionaires and billionaires of the fantasy settings. Wizard schools can't be that expensive, otherwise you wouldn't find any wizards except in metropolises.

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Family fortune doesn't always translate into personal fortune for the kids.

Eugene could have set up a trust fund for Julia and left Roy out because of their falling out when Roy went off to Fighters College. Roy would then have whatever money Eugene left him for tuition, intial equipment outfitting, and maybe a few thousand (if that) in gold pieces.

Julia wouldn't get "her" money until after graduating from Wizard University, and would not be able to share any with Roy even if she wanted to. Eugene strikes me as the kind to do something like that just to make things that much tougher for Roy...

[HappyBlanket]

Because that would be the most unnecessary trait to ever render Roy's character concept in twain. Granted, you could simply ignore the effects on Roy's personality a large inheritance may facilitate (which is perfectly acceptable, and even preferable), but even then you're still at unnecessary at best. Whatever happened to the gold from Eugene's and Horace's adventuring days isn't critical to the Greenhilt legacy, nor is it likely to ever be.

But, for sake of humoring, I imagine even a low level PC would have the funds to live a comfortable life, were they to retire. Like KingofMadCows said, it takes very little in terms of GP to live extravagantly, and if you're a high level character who happens to have slain a dragon or two, you're pretty much set for life financially. As an adventurer, Eugene must have easily attained such wealth.

[Zmflavius]

Living an extravagant life for an adventurer only costs 200 gp per month. That means staying in luxury suites, dining on the finest food, lots of wine, and some servants to tend to your needs. A family could easily live a very comfortable life with that and high level adventurers have tens of thousands of gps. They're basically the millionaires and billionaires of the fantasy settings. Wizard schools can't be that expensive, otherwise you wouldn't find any wizards except in metropolises.

Well, Fighter college (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) cost 40k gold pieces a year.

[HappyBlanket]

Well, Fighter college (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) cost 40k gold pieces a year.

0_0

Wat. That's a 10th level character's life savings.

[NerfTW]

Keep in mind Eugene also died and was raised repeatedly, so that's also a drain on their income. Plus any magical items he was crafting.


And Eugene wasn't really an adventurer. He went on a few failed attempts to find Xykon, but we aren't given any indication that he ever went anywhere with a lot of treasure.

[CletusMusashi]

Roy blew his inheritance trying baldness cure after baldness cure after baldness cure.

[Ramien]

Well, Fighter college (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) cost 40k gold pieces a year.

That same sentence also implied that Roy's mother was the one wanting Roy to be a wizard, so I'd put its canonicity rating at 'unreliable' (mostly due to the likely chance that Eugene was exaggerating and projecting his own feelings about Roy's career choice).

[Zmflavius]

That same sentence also implied that Roy's mother was the one wanting Roy to be a wizard, so I'd put its canonicity rating at 'unreliable' (mostly due to the likely chance that Eugene was exaggerating and projecting his own feelings about Roy's career choice).

But whereas claiming his mother wanted him to be a wizard was probably an extension of Eugene's opinion on Roy's career choice, 40,000 gold is more of a hard figure, making it a bit more difficult to exaggerate.

[KingofMadCows]

Unless Roy learned some uber feat or got trained to level 10 as a part of his education then Eugene was right and it was a huge waste of money.

[Klear]

Unless Roy learned some uber feat or got trained to level 10 as a part of his education then Eugene was right and it was a huge waste of money.

How much gp did he get so far by adventuring? I'm guessing it's already paid for itself.

[Kish]

Unless Roy learned some uber feat or got trained to level 10 as a part of his education then Eugene was right and it was a huge waste of money.
I find it unlikely that a wizard's education would have been cheaper, somehow.

[KingofMadCows]

I find it unlikely that a wizard's education would have been cheaper, somehow.

But if a four year education at a fighter college costs 160,000 gold, then there would barely be a few dozen, maybe a hundred adventurers in the entire world since you'd have to be royalty to afford that kind of an education for your child.

[Klear]

But if a four year education at a fighter college costs 160,000 gold, then there would barely be a few dozen, maybe a hundred adventurers in the entire world since you'd have to be royalty to afford that kind of an education for your child.

Is there anything to indicate that there are no self-taught fighters? It comes naturally to some people, I can imagine.

[Querzis]

Unless Roy learned some uber feat or got trained to level 10 as a part of his education then Eugene was right and it was a huge waste of money.

To level 10 no but judging from Origins of the PC he most definitly wasnt level 1 when his training ended. I'm guessing fighter (as well as Wizard or just about any class) college are a safe way to get to about level 5-6. And considering the fact that, in my experience, the low-level are by far the most dangerous levels for adventurers (you never know when an orc is gonna crit and one-hit kill ya) I consider it a very good investment if you care about your children at all.


But if a four year education at a fighter college costs 160,000 gold, then there would barely be a few dozen, maybe a hundred adventurers in the entire world since you'd have to be royalty to afford that kind of an education for your child.

Thats kinda the point as far as I'm concerned, theres a reason why royalty are almost always pretty powerful people with class level. Whats the bloody point of money if you cant buy the best training and the best equipment with it? So basically, no fighter college isnt needed to be a fighter. But considering not only Roy level when he started but also his incredible stats all around, I'd say its money well spent.

[Qwertystop]

Also, we know that multiclassing requires no college, from Elan saying that it would have been easier to make it as a Wizard by taking one level of Bard, then going straight wizard. This is also reflected in the rules for starting ages, which show a training time for different races for their first level, but there are no rules for the time it takes to get another level.

[Ramien]

To level 10 no but judging from Origins of the PC he most definitly wasnt level 1 when his training ended. I'm guessing fighter (as well as Wizard or just about any class) college are a safe way to get to about level 5-6. And considering the fact that, in my experience, the low-level are by far the most dangerous levels for adventurers (you never know when an orc is gonna crit and one-hit kill ya) I consider it a very good investment if you care about your children at all.


I'd say probably level 3 for getting out of fighter college. Roy didn't have weapon specialization at the time of graduation, which first becomes available at 4. It'd probably also classify him for a specific feat tree or prestige class, depending on the general rules of the campaign.

[veti]

So both Roy's father and grandfather were adventurers. We don't know how powerful Horace was but Eugene was a pretty high level wizard. So shouldn't the Greenhilt family be rich?

Two words: adventurer tax.

For chaotic characters, this is mostly levied by smugglers, hookers, and/or (if CG) bailing their friends out of trouble. For lawful characters, it's more likely to take the form of people turning up on their doorstep demanding help for various Causes.

Either way: everyone knows adventurers are rich, therefore everyone who wants money knows immediately where to go...

[Kami2awa]

0_0

Wat. That's a 10th level character's life savings.

Just like college in real life, then.

[HappyBlanket]

Thats kinda the point as far as I'm concerned, theres a reason why royalty are almost always pretty powerful people with class level.

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Aristocrat

[KingofMadCows]

To level 10 no but judging from Origins of the PC he most definitly wasnt level 1 when his training ended. I'm guessing fighter (as well as Wizard or just about any class) college are a safe way to get to about level 5-6. And considering the fact that, in my experience, the low-level are by far the most dangerous levels for adventurers (you never know when an orc is gonna crit and one-hit kill ya) I consider it a very good investment if you care about your children at all.



Thats kinda the point as far as I'm concerned, theres a reason why royalty are almost always pretty powerful people with class level. Whats the bloody point of money if you cant buy the best training and the best equipment with it? So basically, no fighter college isnt needed to be a fighter. But considering not only Roy level when he started but also his incredible stats all around, I'd say its money well spent.

But the cost still far outweighs the benefits. It would be significantly cheaper to just have Roy go out adventuring with high level magical gear and resurrect him whenever he dies. If Eugene didn't want Roy to risk death then he could either help him out a bit or hire some mercenaries to support him.


Two words: adventurer tax.

For chaotic characters, this is mostly levied by smugglers, hookers, and/or (if CG) bailing their friends out of trouble. For lawful characters, it's more likely to take the form of people turning up on their doorstep demanding help for various Causes.

Either way: everyone knows adventurers are rich, therefore everyone who wants money knows immediately where to go...

But taxing an adventurer is like taxing a dragon. Sure they're rich but they can also raze entire towns. Even Gold and Silver Dragons aren't willing to pay unreasonably high taxes.

[Kish]

But the cost still far outweighs the benefits. It would be significantly cheaper to just have Roy go out adventuring with high level magical gear and resurrect him whenever he dies.

Except for the thing where Roy would lose a level whenever he died, or 2 Constitution points permanently if he died at level one. Plus the expenses of getting the body back every time, and the risk of there not being an intact body.


If Eugene didn't want Roy to risk death then he could either help him out a bit or hire some mercenaries to support him.
Reducing the challenge of Roy's encounters to trivial, which would reduce the XP Roy got from them to nothing.

[Thanatosia]

Keep in mind Eugene also died and was raised repeatedly, so that's also a drain on their income. Plus any magical items he was crafting.
There was also the incident where Roy's little brother died. Any number of things that drained the coffers could be related to that, not the least of which the multiple resurrection attempts that he refused to accept.

[FujinAkari]

Yeah, I think the biggest drain is the two colleges (Roy's and Julia's) Assuming Fighter College costs the same as Wizard College (probably a bad assumption) then Eugene has alread forked out 320,000 gold pieces just on those, assuming Roy / Julia only attend the standard four-years each.

[Doug Lampert]

Except for the thing where Roy would lose a level whenever he died, or 2 Constitution points permanently if he died at level one. Plus the expenses of getting the body back every time, and the risk of there not being an intact body.

Avoiding ALL these problems costs only 25,000 GP to fix with no losses. As opposed to 160,000 GP for school...


Reducing the challenge of Roy's encounters to trivial, which would reduce the XP Roy got from them to nothing.

What rule set is that?

3.0, send a level 1 and level 17 character out together to kill two CR 1/2 orcs and they both get 84 XP! The level 1 advances after only 12 such encounters! (APL is only 9.) In fact you can send him out with someone significantly higher than level 17 and he still gets XP.

3.5 it's even better! You no longer use APL, instead the high level gets no XP, and the low level gets 150 XP for every such encounter.

Anything else is the GM applying an Ad-hoc adjustment, and there's no GM in OotS. By the rules as written this isn't a trivial encounter, 3.0 you use the numeric average of the character levels (which means one level 2000 and a bunch of level 1's can get XP from those orcs), 3.5 you use individual awards based on your own level.

[Kish]

Avoiding ALL these problems costs only 25,000 GP to fix with no losses.

You're assuming Eugene knew a level 17 cleric, now? One who wouldn't charge at all to cast as many True Resurrection spells as necessary for Eugene's "powerlevel my son" stunt?

I concede that the OotS world may be amenable to a kind of grotesque letter-of-the-rules abuse which would never work in actual D&D. Belkar got stuck with small daggers, after all, where any reasonable DM would have let him change his feats to "small short swords."

[KingofMadCows]

Except for the thing where Roy would lose a level whenever he died, or 2 Constitution points permanently if he died at level one. Plus the expenses of getting the body back every time, and the risk of there not being an intact body.

Reducing the challenge of Roy's encounters to trivial, which would reduce the XP Roy got from them to nothing.

So how was Roy able to level in fighter college? Is there really anything the fighter college provided that a high level wizard like Eugene could have replicated with significantly lower costs?

[Ash_Gazn]

Funerals cost a lot of money. And we know that Eugene had to pay for one of those.

[Ramien]

So how was Roy able to level in fighter college? Is there really anything the fighter college provided that a high level wizard like Eugene could have replicated with significantly lower costs?

Optional rules for training as a means of gaining experience? Justification for leveling up during a 'timeskip'? Story awards instead of pure combat experience?

Even if Eugene could have done things cheaper, I doubt he would have if it would have involved his personal involvement in any way. He hated the idea of Roy being a fighter, and helping out would have been giving in. And Eugene Greenhilt is never wrong; or at least will never admit to being wrong, which is almost the same thing, right?

[Forum Explorer]

I don't know look at the prices for adventurers in a town. 1 pp for a single apple? :smalleek:

[LudiDrizzt]

Remember, Roy has an MBA. That's 2 more years. 2 expensive years.

[RndmNumGen]

3.5 it's even better! You no longer use APL, instead the high level gets no XP, and the low level gets 150 XP for every such encounter.


Oh wow. How did I never notice that? Man, a Lv 1 guy tagging along with a Lv 20 party will hit level 4 after a typical 15 minute workday! Assuming he can avoid dying from AoEs or something, of course.

[KingofMadCows]

Optional rules for training as a means of gaining experience? Justification for leveling up during a 'timeskip'? Story awards instead of pure combat experience?

Even if Eugene could have done things cheaper, I doubt he would have if it would have involved his personal involvement in any way. He hated the idea of Roy being a fighter, and helping out would have been giving in. And Eugene Greenhilt is never wrong; or at least will never admit to being wrong, which is almost the same thing, right?

But paying 40,000 gp a year counts as helping out.

He could have easily chosen a more reasonably priced school and gotten similar results. The cost of training someone to level 4 or 5 can't possibly be that high.

[Ramien]

But paying 40,000 gp a year counts as helping out.

He could have easily chosen a more reasonably priced school and gotten similar results. The cost of training someone to level 4 or 5 can't possibly be that high.

Paying the money is more like 'Fine, here's your money, now leave me alone!' - it lets him keep himself at one remove from the situation and keep a clear conscience (he is/was still goodish, after all).

[HappyBlanket]

Are we seriously talking economics in the oots forum? Hold on, let me get the potion salesmen.

[Prowl]

Remember, Roy has an MBA. That's 2 more years. 2 expensive years.

And furthermore, if he used his MBA like your average real-life holder of such degrees, he'd be 4 trillion gp in debt by now.

[MickJay]

160000gp is equal to 36000 xp, which is equivalent of hitting level 9. Assuming anywhere between 20-50% efficiency of converting gold into experience through the use of educational facilities, after deducting the living costs, Roy might have ended anywhere between level 4 and 6 before starting his postgraduate degree (which could have added an additional level, and/or provided justification for some specific feat or two). Lack of weapon specialization on graduation could simply mean he took that feat sometime later.

That's my theory and it belongs to me. :smalltongue:

[Ramien]

160000gp is equal to 36000 xp, which is equivalent of hitting level 9. Assuming anywhere between 20-50% efficiency of converting gold into experience through the use of educational facilities, after deducting the living costs, Roy might have ended anywhere between level 4 and 6 before starting his postgraduate degree (which could have added an additional level, and/or provided justification for some specific feat or two). Lack of weapon specialization on graduation could simply mean he took that feat sometime later.

That's my theory and it belongs to me. :smalltongue:
Considering how much we've already seen 'adventurer's prices' get jacked up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), even assuming 20% efficiency may be assuming a lot.

[KingofMadCows]

Considering how much we've already seen 'adventurer's prices' get jacked up (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0122.html), even assuming 20% efficiency may be assuming a lot.

That may work for wandering adventurers but once someone settles down, it won't take long before they figure out that they're being scammed. It's not a good idea to try to keep tricking people with the power to raze entire cities.

[MickJay]

If such a homebrew system was in effect, it wouldn't have to be a scam on the part of the schools - perhaps that 20% is the maximum of what is at all possible. The well-off adventurers, acknowledging that, would still want to prepare their kids for the future.

[HappyBlanket]

Eugene should have sent Roy to Bard Camp for his first level. Multiclassing is free.

[Caractacus]

Eugene should have sent Roy to Bard Camp for his first level. Multiclassing is free.

I can't see Roy saying, "Then this one time, in Bard Camp, I thought about multiclassing..." :smalltongue:

[maximus25]

Reducing the challenge of Roy's encounters to trivial, which would reduce the XP Roy got from them to nothing.

No, if you adventure with higher level people, you get more XP then them. I know, I play a level 8 character in a game with 1 level 10, 3 level 13's, and 1 level 17. I get tons of Xp, they get barely any.

[KingofMadCows]

You'd think Eugene could have just asked one of his old adventuring buddies to take Roy in as a pupil or even a cohort.

[theinsulabot]

gee it seems like if roy was bankrupting his family, he wouldnt have taken goat herding for an easy A

[Kish]

gee it seems like if roy was bankrupting his family, he wouldnt have taken goat herding for an easy A
He may well have thought "Riding might be useful later on but I need to pass my Animal Husbandry requirement the first time so I don't have to go for another semester," as far as that goes.