Is this template balanced? (My players, don't read this)

[magic9mushroom]

(In case any of my players mindlessly clicked on this link, buzz off.)

I'm tinkering with a Half-Ekolid template, which quite a few NPCs will have over the course of my campaign.

I'm using this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630x&page=1) guide to customising Half-Fiends, btw. Changes are in bold.

So, the template:

"Half-ekolid" is an inherited template that can be added to any living, corporeal creature with an Intelligence score of 4 or more and nonlawful alignment (referred to hereafter as the base creature). A half-ekolid uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as noted here.

Size and Type: The creature's type changes to outsider. Do not recalculate Hit Dice, base attack bonus, or saves. Size is unchanged. Half-ekolids are normally native outsiders.

Speed: A half-ekolid has insect wings. Unless the base creature has a better fly speed, the creature can fly at twice the base creature's base land speed (average maneuverability).

Armour Class: Natural armour improves by +1 (this stacks with any natural armour bonus the base creature has).

Attack: A half-ekolid has six sting attacks and a bite attack, and the stings are the primary natural weapon. If the base creature can use weapons, the half-ekolid retains this ability. A half-ekolid fighting without weapons uses a sting when making an attack action. When it has a weapon, it often uses the weapon instead.

Full Attack: A half-ekolid fighting without weapons uses all six stings and its bite when making a full attack. If armed with a weapon, it usually uses the weapon as its primary attack and all six stings plus bite as natural secondary attacks.

Damage: Half-ekolids have sting and bite attacks. If the base creature does not have these attack forms, use the damage values in the table below. Otherwise, use the values below or the base creature's damage values, whichever are greater.

Size Sting & Bite Damage

Fine 1
Diminutive 1d2
Tiny 1d3
Small 1d4
Medium 1d6
Large 1d8
Huge 2d6
Gargantuan 3d6
Colossal 4d6


Special Attacks: A half-ekolid retains all the special attacks of the base creature. (no Smite Good)

(no Spell-Like Abilities)

Special Qualities: A half-ekolid has all the special qualities of the base creature, plus the following special qualities:

- Darkvision out to 60 feet.
- Immunity to poison.
- Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
- Damage reduction 5/lawful (if HD 11 or less) or 10/lawful (if HD 12 or more).
- A half-ekolid's natural weapons are treated as lawful weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
- Spell resistance equal to creature's HD + 10.

Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: Dex +6, Con +6, Cha +4.

Skills: A half-ekolid gains skill points as an outsider for its racial HD, blah blah blah.

Challenge Rating: As base creature +3?

Alignment: Always chaotic (any).

Level Adjustment: As base creature +5?

[Flickerdart]

Eh. A pile of natural attacks without a Strength bonus and Pounce isn't spectacular unless you're doing something with the lot of them - and I don't believe that Native Outsiders qualify for the Wight template from Savage Species, which would be my first instinct. +6 Con goes a little ways towards salvaging the poor hit points of what's intended to be a credible melee threat, but it's still going to be useless unless it stands there trading full attacks with the party beatstick, a battle it might very well lose.

[magic9mushroom]

Eh. A pile of natural attacks without a Strength bonus and Pounce isn't spectacular unless you're doing something with the lot of them - and I don't believe that Native Outsiders qualify for the Wight template from Savage Species, which would be my first instinct. +6 Con goes a little ways towards salvaging the poor hit points of what's intended to be a credible melee threat, but it's still going to be useless unless it stands there trading full attacks with the party beatstick, a battle it might very well lose.

You think it should be less CR and LA?

(Note that the party has *no* full casters in it, apart from possibly a beginner playing a Favoured Soul. I'm looking for balance with MM CRs, not a challenge to Tier 1 casters.)

[erikun]

Why would its weapons be lawful-aligned if it is a chaotic creature? Why would it lose any Smite Good abilities - wouldn't losing Smite Chaos make more sense?

Other than that, we're looking at a 1 HD creature (~10 HP) dealing 7d6 damage a round, DR 5/resist 10, as a CR 4. That seems a bit extreme in either direction - if it full attacks you, you'll be hurting pretty badly at that level, but one good swing or spell and it's dead.

A 7 HD creature (~60 HP) is still dealing only 7d6 damage a round, with the same DR 5/resist 10, at CR 10. This feels a lot less impressive, because while it'll stand up to more than one fireball, a 10th level rogue is dealing 6d6 damage with a single attack. Spell resistance seems to be overcome on a 7+, negating around 30% of attacks.

Especially at higher levels, I don't see the template being worth the +3 LA (outside of ridiculously high strength or bonus damage dice). On the other hand, you'll have creatures easily killable but dealing tons of damage until around CR 6-7.

[Flickerdart]

You think it should be less CR and LA?

(Note that the party has *no* full casters in it, apart from possibly a beginner playing a Favoured Soul. I'm looking for balance with MM CRs, not a challenge to Tier 1 casters.)
Less CR, with a minimum clause (since it packs quite a bit of a punch at low levels). Alternatively, give the monsters a couple levels of Totemist to go along with the template - this will both fix the "at low levels, everything it touches dies" problem and give it accessible Pounce.

[magic9mushroom]

Why would its weapons be lawful-aligned if it is a chaotic creature?

DR gives you ability to overcome same DR unless it's a material. They don't count as lawful-aligned otherwise.


Why would it lose any Smite Good abilities - wouldn't losing Smite Chaos make more sense?

Loses Smite Good because I needed to get rid of something and because Ekolids, as Obyriths, are more Chaotic than Evil. Also, Half-Fiends don't ordinarily have Smite Chaos, so they can't lose it.


Other than that, we're looking at a 1 HD creature (~10 HP) dealing 7d6 damage a round, DR 5/resist 10, as a CR 4. That seems a bit extreme in either direction - if it full attacks you, you'll be hurting pretty badly at that level, but one good swing or spell and it's dead.

Con +6. Also, I don't see a good way to fix it.

I'm also not planning to give the template to many creatures that low on HP.


A 7 HD creature (~60 HP) is still dealing only 7d6 damage a round, with the same DR 5/resist 10, at CR 10. This feels a lot less impressive, because while it'll stand up to more than one fireball, a 10th level rogue is dealing 6d6 damage with a single attack. Spell resistance seems to be overcome on a 7+, negating around 30% of attacks.

A beatstick 7 HD creature with no Str bonus isn't likely to be CR 7 to begin with. The ekolid itself is a beatstick with 6 HD and is CR 4.


Especially at higher levels, I don't see the template being worth the +3 LA (outside of ridiculously high strength or bonus damage dice). On the other hand, you'll have creatures easily killable but dealing tons of damage until around CR 6-7.

Should I add the ekolid's Implant Egg for over 8 HD, perhaps?

EDIT: Normal Half-Fiend is CR +1 through +3, and I think this is generally more powerful. You guys don't think so?

[Flickerdart]

You took away Blasphemy, Summon Monster and Destruction, and gave it a few extra arms. A standard Half-Fiend of equivalent CR would tear this thing apart by kiting it and peppering it with its SLAs - your guy might be faster, but he only gets to make a single attack, and then eats Poison to the face.

[magic9mushroom]

You took away Blasphemy, Summon Monster and Destruction, and gave it a few extra arms. A standard Half-Fiend of equivalent CR would tear this thing apart by kiting it and peppering it with its SLAs - your guy might be faster, but he only gets to make a single attack, and then eats Poison to the face.

Hmm.

If I put the SLAs back in, would it be worth +3 CR?

Also, I'm not entirely intending these to be on dungeoncrawl monsters. They'll be on NPCs as well, some of which will have rogue levels.

A full routine of Sneak Attacks from a suddenly-revealed half-ekolid is nasty as all hell.

[erikun]

Con +6. Also, I don't see a good way to fix it.

I'm also not planning to give the template to many creatures that low on HP.
A normal human with base stats would end up with 11 HP (d8 maximum, 16 Constitution). Still, just not being silly with the template will solve the problem as well.


A beatstick 7 HD creature with no Str bonus isn't likely to be CR 7 to begin with. The ekolid itself is a beatstick with 6 HD and is CR 4.

Should I add the ekolid's Implant Egg for over 8 HD, perhaps?
I'm not familiar with the ability, but it would probably make it more dangerous at higher levels. Just don't do so without the party having a way to cure/remove it at that level.


Hmm.

If I put the SLAs back in, would it be worth +3 CR?
You'd probably want to stick them in at appropriate levels, of course. A CR 4 creature with Blasphemy is probably a bit much.

[magic9mushroom]

A normal human with base stats would end up with 11 HP (d8 maximum, 16 Constitution). Still, just not being silly with the template will solve the problem as well.

1 HD is pretty screwy for most things, and a normal human is CR 1/2.


I'm not familiar with the ability, but it would probably make it more dangerous at higher levels. Just don't do so without the party having a way to cure/remove it at that level.

Gives +1d6 damage per attack (Fort negates) and if they fail any of them the target's nauseated for a round.


You'd probably want to stick them in at appropriate levels, of course. A CR 4 creature with Blasphemy is probably a bit much.

Well, yes, I meant "as normal for Half-Fiend".

[awa]

it doesn't get a bonus to strength but their is nothing stopping the template from being applied to something with a high strength and a rouge could get a lot of use out of all those extra attacks.

also dr lawful is way better than dr magic

people are forgetting its a template if you deliberately put it on things that cant make use of its abbilites of course it will be weak

[magic9mushroom]

it doesn't get a bonus to strength but their is nothing stopping the template from being applied to something with a high strength and a rouge could get a lot of use out of all those extra attacks.

ROGUE ROGUE ROGUE it is ROGUE not "rouge" (though a rogue can use rouge).

But yes, I said what amounts to this above.


also dr lawful is way better than dr magic

Yes, it is.

[Flickerdart]

it doesn't get a bonus to strength but their is nothing stopping the template from being applied to something with a high strength and a rouge could get a lot of use out of all those extra attacks.

also dr lawful is way better than dr magic
Oh please. This template on a Rogue spells disaster - it parks itself next to an opponent so that it can full attack next round (perhaps with a flanking partner) and then dies horribly because of its low HP.

A template's CR should never be rated by its synergies with PC class levels. That's what the LA is for. Nor should you rate it high because of potential synergy with other creature stats, because that creature has already paid the price for those stats with its own ECL.

[magic9mushroom]

Also, I'm not entirely intending these to be on dungeoncrawl monsters. They'll be on NPCs as well, some of which will have rogue levels.

A full routine of Sneak Attacks from a suddenly-revealed half-ekolid is nasty as all hell.


Oh please. This template on a Rogue spells disaster - it parks itself next to an opponent so that it can full attack next round (perhaps with a flanking partner) and then dies horribly because of its low HP.

.....



Do you think the CR and LA are appropriate if I gave it back the SLAs?

[Flickerdart]

I would keep SLAs, but not the same SLAs. Its many attacks make it a potent combatant, but it doesn't have the ability to actually bring them to bear, and this is how you can fix it. SLAs like Lion's Charge, Dimension Step or Invisibility will help it accomplish what it's best at.

[magic9mushroom]

I would keep SLAs, but not the same SLAs. Its many attacks make it a potent combatant, but it doesn't have the ability to actually bring them to bear, and this is how you can fix it. SLAs like Lion's Charge, Dimension Step or Invisibility will help it accomplish what it's best at.

Thanks for the advice.

:smile:

EDIT: Where are Lion's Charge and Dimension Step?

EDIT2: Found both. Both seem rather overpowered, and in case you missed it I'm trying to avoid cheese. I guess they'd be alright at higher levels though.

[awa]

it has good con, dr and a high dex its not that fragile in fact its more durable Than the normal half fiend which has lower dex lower con and less effective dr.

in a high opp game maybe having 7 extra attacks wont help you but in a high op game nobody plays a half fiend anyway

[Flickerdart]

it has good con, dr and a high dex its not that fragile in fact its more durable Than the normal half fiend which has lower dex lower con and less effective dr.
Yes, but the normal half-fiend isn't going to stand around like an idiot, because its abilities don't depend on it.

[awa]

what its got a couple crummy spell like abilities it can use once a day are you forgetting this is a template so it will have more abilities then the one given by the template.
edit
you put this template on something with pounce or invisibility and it will rip most pcs apart in seconds

[Flickerdart]

what its got a couple crummy spell like abilities it can use once a day are you forgetting this is a template so it will have more abilities then the one given by the template.
I already said, balancing a template based on what the base creature might have is absolutely pointless. I would also hesitate to call the encounter-ending Blasphemy a "crummy" spell-like ability, especially on an NPC, who will likely have more HD than the PCs.

Basically, it's bad design to make a class/template/feat/whatever that requires abilities from other sources before it can work as intended. This is a Truenamer-scale mistake.

[awa]

ill admit some of the higher level abilities are actually useful but 7 extra attacks is a big deal. an extra 7 attacks will help any big brute monster that likes to full attack not just things with sneak attack. if you give this thing spell abilities that are just as powerfully as the half fiend their would never be any reason to play a base half fiend.


the half fiend gives you spell like abilities that have a certain degree of power right out the box this variant increase what a monster can already do physical have a huge increase in their damage out put from this.

[Flickerdart]

It doesn't matter if the monster "likes" strawberry cheesecake and walks on the beach - 7 attacks are worthless if you can't bring them to bear. Right now, this template is only good for creatures with Pounce, which is a very small subset once you realize that animals don't qualify. There's only really Catfolk, and they need a feat, Everything else? Needs PC classes or other templates (like Feral, which should never be a balance point ever).

There isn't a reason to play a base half-fiend anyway, just like there's no reason to play this. 4 and 5 are too big for LA without some absolutely insane benefits. They're monster templates. They should work with monsters.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

la 2 if you want someone to take it, la3 if you don

[magic9mushroom]

la 2 if you want someone to take it, la3 if you don

- +6 Con is better than 2 more HD at high levels for HP and gives more to Fort
- +6 Dex boosts attacks more than 2 levels if Weapon Finesse (which can be applied to all natural attacks IIRC) and gives more to Ref and AC
- SLAs are worth a feat
- DR/(something that most monsters don't have) and resistances

And that's without mentioning the seven extra attacks, which sure, are situational, but are quite powerful when they do come into play.

For a full caster, sure, 3 LA had better be fricking awesome. For a beatstick, 3 or 4 for this is justified methinks.