Can't Convince Uncle to Play Wind Waker Because of the Graphical Style... HELP!

[Triscuitable]

So the thread title speaks for itself. I have an uncle who played through The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, and loved it, but he refuses to play the Wind Waker... Because it looks like a cartoon. This is irritating, because in my opinion, it is FAR better than Twilight Princess (even though TP is an amazing game as well), so I need the help of my fellow forum-poster-guys/gals to help me convince him that it's a game he needs to play, regardless of how it looks.

Please. It's ridiculous that he played Twilight Princess to 100% completion, and still refuses to play a game he hasn't played yet.

[Xefas]

The reasoning is kinda dumb, but if he doesn't want to play it, what's the big deal? Is there a specific reason why "Meh, okay" and moving on is an unacceptable response?

Wind Waker was an amazing game. But there are other amazing games out there, and one person need not play them all.

[Shovah]

Maybe get him to play Ocarina of Time and get him hooked for more Zelda-y goodness?

Failing that, if he's set against it you may be out of luck :smallsigh:.

[Triscuitable]

Maybe get him to play Ocarina of Time and get him hooked for more Zelda-y goodness?

Failing that, if he's set against it you may be out of luck :smallsigh:.

He tried Ocarina, because I got him the special Gamecube port that has Master Quest as well. He didn't like the ageing graphics. I don't like them either, but hey, Ocarina's an okay game in it's own right. It's not the best game in the series, but it's still a fun romp.

[Honest Tiefling]

Some people really like good graphics with the games. It does affect how much they enjoy the game. This might be a lost cause, sorry to say, because the game lacks something that your uncle enjoys and is essential to the experience.

Maybe try to tell him of some interesting game play to see if he's intrigued by that?

[TheSummoner]

Ugh... I really hate people like that. The ones who not only think graphics have any bearing on the quality of the game itself, but assume that a game can't be good if it doesn't have ultrarealistic or super highend graphics.

My suggestion? Show him you playing the most awesome part of the game you can think of. Failing that, show him a youtube video of someone else doing it. The part in old Hyrule Castle when you have to fight the mini-army of Moblins and Darknuts should do well provided you do it like a badass and take on 3-4 of them at a time. Or maybe the battle with the Helmaroc King (including the tower segment beforehand) if you don't think you're up to throwing yourself into a horde of the higher end enemies just to show off that part.

I'd stay away from Ganondorf though... Awesome as the final fight is, you don't want to spoil it.

As for Ocarina of Time, show him Twinrova. That was always my favorite OoT boss fight.

[Knaight]

Don't bother trying, its his loss. Hopefully Skyward Sword is more his style, and stressing that it is impressionist and not cartoony should do the trick there.

[Knaight]

Don't bother trying, its his loss. Hopefully Skyward Sword is more his style, and stressing that it is impressionist and not cartoony should do the trick there.

[Prime32]

OoT 3D has improved graphics (and IN 3D), so that might snare him.

For WW try selling him on things like being set after an apocalypse, Ganondorf's divergent character development, the size of the game world, the references to previous titles. Or play him the Great Sea music and see if he likes it.

[Triscuitable]

OoT 3D has improved graphics (and IN 3D), so that might snare him.

Hey doesn't have a 3DS. His wife played Wind Waker, and she stopped at Ghodan in favor of, what else, Twilight Princess. Shame that. But at least I can try and show him some sort of reason to get him into it. Thanks.

[Forum Explorer]

I had the same problem as your uncle does with Wind Waker. I did play the game and enjoy it don't get me wrong. I just felt that it would have been amazing with a more serious art style. (BTW TP is currently my fave Zelda game)

[DiscipleofBob]

I hated the graphical style of Wind Waker so much it put me off from playing it for awhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the sort who believes a game has to have great graphics to be good. But when you already have the engine for great graphics and decide to make Link look like a Powerpuff Girl and worse than he does in the SNES games, that annoys me. That and the whole direction about Young or Toon Link instead of a proper adult Link like in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess always bothered me.

But I eventually played Wind Waker, and while about half the game elements are rock solid, the sailing from island to island was monotonous, the fetch quests and mandatory treasure hunts were horrific, and in one of the final dungeons, the game glitched so that I couldn't progress in the dungeon and reach the boss despite doing everything right. I realize the last one might not necessarily be the fault of the game design, but it still annoyed me enough that I stopped playing.

Twilight Princess, on the other hand, did everything right, and in my mind is the best Legend of Zelda so far.

[Prime32]

I hated the graphical style of Wind Waker so much it put me off from playing it for awhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the sort who believes a game has to have great graphics to be good. But when you already have the engine for great graphics and decide to make Link look like a Powerpuff Girl and worse than he does in the SNES games, that annoys me.I thought WW's graphics were great. Things were smoother than TP despite the latter being on a more powerful console (they're the best implementation of cel-shading I've ever seen), and detail is no substitute for style. The dungeons felt very organic, with squirming roots etc. The characters were highly expressive, and the bosses were epic in scale.


That and the whole direction about Young or Toon Link instead of a proper adult Link like in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess always bothered me.Link was young in half of Ocarina of Time (not to mention Majora's Mask), and is implied to have been young in earlier games. :smallconfused: He was young in Four Swords at least, which is supposed to be concurrent with LttP.

[Seerow]

Honestly? I hated WW because of the sailing and treasure hunting far more than the graphics. Though I admit to prefering the OoT style graphics to it.

[Drascin]

I hated the graphical style of Wind Waker so much it put me off from playing it for awhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the sort who believes a game has to have great graphics to be good. But when you already have the engine for great graphics and decide to make Link look like a Powerpuff Girl and worse than he does in the SNES games, that annoys me. That and the whole direction about Young or Toon Link instead of a proper adult Link like in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess always bothered me.


...but wind Waker's graphics were great, and a lot prettier and smoother than even Twilight Princess :smallconfused:. The game in general looked beautiful, still think it's one of the prettiest games in the Gamecube.

[Sipex]

I too liked the graphical style, it's not the best but it's not automatically bad either. It's different and allowed for a different type of game. The choice in using it wasn't because they couldn't do more realistic graphics (TP was on the gamecube as well if you recall) but because they wanted something which allowed for better expression and they wanted to try cell shading as well.

The only thing which bugged me about the game was the damned wind directions.

[DiscipleofBob]

I thought WW's graphics were great. Things were smoother than TP despite the latter being on a more powerful console (they're the best implementation of cel-shading I've ever seen), and detail is no substitute for style. The dungeons felt very organic, with squirming roots etc. The characters were highly expressive, and the bosses were epic in scale.

Link was young in half of Ocarina of Time (not to mention Majora's Mask), and is implied to have been young in earlier games. :smallconfused: He was young in Four Swords at least, which is supposed to be concurrent with LttP.

Yes, but Ocarina of Time at least had you as Adult Link for half the game so it wasn't as bad at first, and the Young Link thing was necessary for the time travel storyline. Future games like Majora's Mask and Wind Waker were part of a trend to ignore who has otherwise been a grown-up adventure hero in favor of an 8-year old because it "relates to a younger demographic" or whatever excuse they gave. And, to my understanding, before Ocarina of Time, Link has always been at least a teenager.

And here's the thing about Wind Waker. The cel-shading isn't what bothered me. I thought at least parts of it were really good (though I highly disagree they were superior to Twilight Princess). As you said a lot of the dungeons and bosses were suitably epic. But then you look at the character designs and they actually have WORSE proportions than the 16-bit days. At the same time as Wind Waker, we got to see what a Link that didn't take 30seconds to draw in crayon would look like in the GCN version of Soul Calibur 2. It just seemed like a gyp to me that I had to wait from Ocarina of Time to Twilight Princess to not have to play as a deformed child.

[Prime32]

And here's the thing about Wind Waker. The cel-shading isn't what bothered me. I thought at least parts of it were really good (though I highly disagree they were superior to Twilight Princess). As you said a lot of the dungeons and bosses were suitably epic. But then you look at the character designs and they actually have WORSE proportions than the 16-bit days. At the same time as Wind Waker, we got to see what a Link that didn't take 30seconds to draw in crayon would look like in the GCN version of Soul Calibur 2. It just seemed like a gyp to me that I had to wait from Ocarina of Time to Twilight Princess to not have to play as a deformed child.I find this rather ironic on a message board about stick figures.

It's hard to make Link look like that. Stylising a character requires you to be able to draw realistically first, and takes a good deal more talent than just drawing a standard human. Plus WW's cel-shading engine accomplished its effect far better than most games. WW's art style is not the result of the artists being terrible or lazy - if they were lazy they would have made it look like all the other games on the console and read proportions off a list.

[Sipex]

I think this is just a matter of opinion. Looking at the graphics and the effects it's clear they didn't slap this together in a short amount of time, they developed a style and went with it. Just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it wasn't hard to do.

However if you just plain don't like it, that can't be helped. But it doesn't make it worse, it just makes it not your thing.

I remember reading an article about this and Miyamoto or Iwata (I can't remember which) stated they had a lot of trouble coming up with a style which showed the expressions they wanted so well while also showing off cell shading and heavy lighting effects (WW was the first Zelda to get really into using shadows and heavy darkness properly. OoT and MM both had lighting but they don't really focus on how lighting affects character models directly).

edit: I believe part of the reason they went with it was also to do with all the endless ocean, they wanted something which could make endless ocean somewhat more interesting while at the same time being daunting.

edit2: Also, it is never specified how old toon link is and you'd be hard pressed to guess anything beyond young. This could be the intention, going back to the old days where the age of link wasn't readily discernable. We just know from WW that he's "Of age". He could very well be the same age as the previous links (pre OoT)

[DiscipleofBob]

I find this rather ironic on a message board about stick figures.

It's hard to make Link look like that. Stylising a character requires you to be able to draw realistically first, and takes a good deal more talent than just drawing a standard human. Plus WW's cel-shading engine accomplished its effect far better than most games. WW's art style is not the result of the artists being terrible or lazy - if they were lazy they would have made it look like all the other games on the console and read proportions off a list.

1. We all know the Stick Figure look is intentional, so that's really a moot point.

2. I don't honestly think the artists for the game were lazy. A lot of the bosses and dungeons certainly show that even with the cel-shaded style they can pull off some truly epic stuff. I believe that Wind Waker's character designs were a choice of taste, one that I happen to think was a poor choice, though many people feel otherwise.

3. Despite my acknowledgment that the artists on Wind Waker themselves were still talented, I do have to say, WW Link is not a difficult style to duplicate. Those proportions (big head, tiny body) are not difficult to recreate and look ridiculous.

[Prime32]

I would argue that there is a good reason for Wind Waker's graphics style. Namely: this is a new world.

Hyrule has long been running in cycles, where Ganon will emerge, the Hero of Time will defeat him, and Zelda will probably be kidnapped. At the end of Ocarina of Time Zelda sends Link back in time, stopping one version of Ganon preemptively but leaving her timeline without a hero.

Such a world is doomed, you might think. But when Ganon escaped and the gods destroyed Hyrule, a new world was born. Entire species were changed. Where the old Deku Tree was a solemn figure who told tales of the past, the new Deku Tree is vigorous and looks to the future.

Unlike every other Link before him, Wind Waker's protagonist is not a destined hero. Nevertheless, even without destiny on his side he is able to match and even surpass the deeds of the Hero of Time, earning the title of "Hero of Winds" and proving that it is possible to determine your own fate.

WW's Ganondorf, unlike TP's, actually succeeded in conquering Hyrule on his first attempt and ruling it for seven years. He is less randomly evil and more introspective, speaking wearily about how his actions were forced upon him and saying things like "it must be fate". You get the impression that he's fighting Link because it's the only thing he knows how to do - notably he fails to realise that this Link is not the Hero of Time. His wish is one to return to the past, spoken with anger against the gods he blames for everything.

Ganondorf's defeat signifies the end of an era, and the birth of something greater. This is made very clear by Wind Waker's ending.

"Hope! I desire hope for these children! Give them a future! Wash away this ancient land of Hyrule! Let a ray of hope shine on the future of the world!"
Where Tetra begs the king to come with them:

T: "We could create a new Hyrule!"
K: "It would not be a new Hyrule. It would be your land!"
True enough, the games following Wind Waker (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) take even greater steps away from old Zelda. The overall technology level of setting begins to increase, introducing hot air balloons, steamboats and trains. Even recurring characters are given more unique personalities - ST Zelda isn't just the latest in a long line of generic kind princesses, she's kind of short-tempered and spoiled. ST Link is less eager and more nervous than the Links before him or even WW's Link. Fun is poked at the conventions of old games. And no one reincarnates any more - there will never be a chain of Heroes of Wind, and Ganondorf has not reappeared.


For reference, vids of WW's ending:
Before Puppet Ganon fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEWfDT-T5Ls#t=1m14s)
Before Ganondorf fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4f1JamwuRM)
After Ganondorf fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XYWHaLwQYE)

[DiscipleofBob]

I would argue that there is a good reason for Wind Waker's graphics style. Namely: this is a new world.

Hyrule has long been running in cycles, where Ganon will emerge, the Hero of Time will defeat him, and Zelda will probably be kidnapped. At the end of Ocarina of Time Zelda sends Link back in time, stopping one version of Ganon preemptively but leaving her timeline without a hero.

Such a world is doomed, you might think. But when Ganon escaped and the gods destroyed Hyrule, a new world was born. Entire species were changed. Where the old Deku Tree was a solemn figure who told tales of the past, the new Deku Tree is vigorous and looks to the future.

Unlike every other Link before him, Wind Waker's protagonist is not a destined hero. Nevertheless, even without destiny on his side he is able to match and even surpass the deeds of the Hero of Time, earning the title of "Hero of Winds" and proving that it is possible to determine your own fate.

WW's Ganondorf, unlike TP's, actually succeeded in conquering Hyrule on his first attempt and ruling it for seven years. He is less randomly evil and more introspective, speaking wearily about how his actions were forced upon him and saying things like "it must be fate". You get the impression that he's fighting Link because it's the only thing he knows how to do - notably he fails to realise that this Link is not the Hero of Time. His wish is one to return to the past, spoken with anger against the gods he blames for everything.

Ganondorf's defeat signifies the end of an era, and the birth of something greater. This is made very clear by Wind Waker's ending.

Where Tetra begs the king to come with them:

True enough, the games following Wind Waker (Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks) take even greater steps away from old Zelda. The overall technology level of setting begins to increase, introducing hot air balloons, steamboats and trains. Even recurring characters are given more unique personalities - ST Zelda isn't just the latest in a long line of generic kind princesses, she's kind of short-tempered and spoiled. ST Link is less eager and more nervous than the Links before him or even WW's Link. Fun is poked at the conventions of old games. And no one reincarnates any more - there will never be a chain of Heroes of Wind, and Ganondorf has not reappeared.


For reference, vids of WW's ending:
Before Puppet Ganon fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEWfDT-T5Ls#t=1m14s)
Before Ganondorf fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4f1JamwuRM)
After Ganondorf fight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XYWHaLwQYE)

This is a good theory and all, I'm afraid you've lost me on one aspect.

What, exactly, does this have to do with deformed character designs?

[Prime32]

This is a good theory and all, I'm afraid you've lost me on one aspect.

What, exactly, does this have to do with deformed character designs?First line: this is a new world from previous Zeldas. And a more optimistic one.

[DiscipleofBob]

First line: this is a new world from previous Zeldas. And a more optimistic one.

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the connection between new world and cartooney art style.

[Triscuitable]

I'm sorry, I'm still not seeing the connection between new world and cartooney art style.

It's an alternate universe that branches off from where young Link retrieved the Master Sword, where he became "older Link", he disappeared instead of saving the world, Ganon causes his catastrophe, Hyrule floods, and the bloodline of the Hero of Time ends.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, I happened to like the 'cartooney' graphics of WW. It's a GAME. He *IS* a cartoon! He should look like one.

[Destro_Yersul]

I think this is just a matter of opinion. Looking at the graphics and the effects it's clear they didn't slap this together in a short amount of time, they developed a style and went with it. Just because it's not realistic doesn't mean it wasn't hard to do.

However if you just plain don't like it, that can't be helped. But it doesn't make it worse, it just makes it not your thing.

This. I never played wind waker, partly because we didn't have a Gamecube and partly because I'm not a fan of cel-shading. I just don't like the way it looks, whether it's well done or not.

[Triscuitable]

Actually, I happened to like the 'cartooney' graphics of WW. It's a GAME. He *IS* a cartoon! He should look like one.

Thank you.

Now I urge each and every one of you haters to go back and play Metroid Prime 2. Then Wind Waker. Do these games stand up to the technical prowess of a game likes Gears of War 2? Well, sort of, they don't support the super high resolutions (up to 1900x1200, like my TV), they do have an art style that avoids the typical browns, grays, blacks, and darker browns of modern gaming, like Gears 2, Call of Duty 3-7, and nigh every other game to ever come out this generation.

IN FACT, I think Wind Waker looks better than any cel shaded game that came out since (TF2 is on the same level), and it can support itself as such, and still look good after the rise of HD (IT SUPPORTS WIDESCREEN! HOLY COW!), then you have to give it some credit.

You know why I think it looks better? It was the first game to ever support dynamic shading. Yeah. That thing you shrug off nowadays because you never see it in a game besides Dead Space or Minecraft is so heavily used in Wind Waker, that the models don't even have shaded textures. That's all in engine. That's impressive. Look at Fallout 3 and New Vegas, while having no relation to tLoZ in any way, it uses a simple filter, and 3 different light levels to show how dark it currentely is. Light doesn't exactly wow the eyes. Look at the Cursed Great Sea. It's freaky, it's dark, and you can notice there's more than a HUD filter in the works.

And why did I say to go play Metroid Prime 2? Because you didn't play it enough. It's good. :smalltongue:

[Tychris1]

So if someone likes the game and supports your cause then they are wise and it's because of the fact that the game is great.

If someone doesn't like the game for one reason or another and goes against your cause (thinking you should let your relative just be who he is and not try to forcibley change him) then they are haters who do not understand the games greatness and only dislike it because of personal preference NOT because of the game.

I think I'm starting to catch on to the WW logic. Anyway, I could care less about cel-shading, mode 7 graphics now that's where it's at.

[Starwulf]

I hated the graphical style of Wind Waker so much it put me off from playing it for awhile.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the sort who believes a game has to have great graphics to be good. But when you already have the engine for great graphics and decide to make Link look like a Powerpuff Girl and worse than he does in the SNES games, that annoys me. That and the whole direction about Young or Toon Link instead of a proper adult Link like in Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess always bothered me.

But I eventually played Wind Waker, and while about half the game elements are rock solid, the sailing from island to island was monotonous, the fetch quests and mandatory treasure hunts were horrific, and in one of the final dungeons, the game glitched so that I couldn't progress in the dungeon and reach the boss despite doing everything right. I realize the last one might not necessarily be the fault of the game design, but it still annoyed me enough that I stopped playing.

Twilight Princess, on the other hand, did everything right, and in my mind is the best Legend of Zelda so far.

I'll second this opinion, and take it a step further and say I still haven't played WindWaker. I can't stand that graphical style, it really puts me off, and quite frankly, I"m not willing to spend any of my already stretched budget on a game that might or might not be good but has an art style I positively hate. If your Uncle doesn't like it because of the art style, that's his prerogative and his right. He doesn't have to play a game he doesn't like the look of, not when there are so many other great games that he probably does like the look of.

edit: and after finishing reading the thread, I stand behind my opinion even more so, and would like to say that your attitude Triscuitable, is completely laughable. You support a game because it did something no other game did at the time? Well then, go back and play some Original atari and NES games, like I grew up on! They are the forebearers of all video games, and did things that no-one else thought was possible, and I still regularly play them, but I bet you won't, judging by the simple fact that you even admitted that OoT(the gamecube version no less!!!) has "dated" graphics that you didn't like. OH, wait, you won't play them? WHY NOT?! YOU DONT LIKE THE LOOK OF THEM?! SHAME ON YOU! YOU'RE A HORRIBLE PERSON!

Yeah, see how asinine that sounds? That's you, in a nutshell with your Uncle.

[DiscipleofBob]

Thank you.

Now I urge each and every one of you haters to go back and play Metroid Prime 2. Then Wind Waker. Do these games stand up to the technical prowess of a game likes Gears of War 2? Well, sort of, they don't support the super high resolutions (up to 1900x1200, like my TV), they do have an art style that avoids the typical browns, grays, blacks, and darker browns of modern gaming, like Gears 2, Call of Duty 3-7, and nigh every other game to ever come out this generation.

IN FACT, I think Wind Waker looks better than any cel shaded game that came out since (TF2 is on the same level), and it can support itself as such, and still look good after the rise of HD (IT SUPPORTS WIDESCREEN! HOLY COW!), then you have to give it some credit.

You know why I think it looks better? It was the first game to ever support dynamic shading. Yeah. That thing you shrug off nowadays because you never see it in a game besides Dead Space or Minecraft is so heavily used in Wind Waker, that the models don't even have shaded textures. That's all in engine. That's impressive. Look at Fallout 3 and New Vegas, while having no relation to tLoZ in any way, it uses a simple filter, and 3 different light levels to show how dark it currentely is. Light doesn't exactly wow the eyes. Look at the Cursed Great Sea. It's freaky, it's dark, and you can notice there's more than a HUD filter in the works.

And why did I say to go play Metroid Prime 2? Because you didn't play it enough. It's good. :smalltongue:

You're right. I haven't played Metroid Prime 2 enough. Probably because the Wii compilation is sitting on my shelf unopened. :smalltongue: Really need to fix that some day.

I agree on the technical aspects of the cel-shading in WW. The engine itself is impressive, and when the designers go all-out, (the first boss in WW really stands out in my mind as impressive), it really shows. I think that's why it boggles my mind that the designers decided on the character designs that they did. With that engine it could've been so much more.

I'll admit I'm biased against Wind Waker. Sure, the character design didn't appeal to me, but between the glitches on the game I played, and the monotany of some of the sidequests just gave me a bad experience playing the game. I do actually recommend to people who haven't played it to give it a chance. Some people like it, some people don't.

[OracleofWuffing]

Hm... Longshot idea here. Har har! Longshot!

Get him this (http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Complete-Cynthia-Preston/dp/B000AA4F2E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309922275&sr=8-1), and show him what a real cartoon Link looks and acts like. Bonus points if you get him a CDi and its Zelda games, then he'll practically beg for Wind Waker.

[DiscipleofBob]

Hm... Longshot idea here. Har har! Longshot!

Get him this (http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Complete-Cynthia-Preston/dp/B000AA4F2E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309922275&sr=8-1), and show him what a real cartoon Link looks and acts like. Bonus points if you get him a CDi and its Zelda games, then he'll practically beg for Wind Waker.

Even Ganon wouldn't be so cruel.

[Tychris1]

WW is more chibi anime style then American cartoon style. Still it was a horrible series no doubt in that.

[OracleofWuffing]

Some of us like the American style. :smallmad: Which reminds me, I should see if I can track down the comic book series. Not the Link to the Past Manga that ran in Nintendo Power (though that was cool, tool), but the other merchandise campaigns of the 80's/early 90's.

[Tychris1]

I didn't say the American style was bad, I said that WW wasn't using American style and was using Chibi anime style. I then procceded to say that the TV SERIES was atrocious, not the style that they drew it in (Mainly because link had a horrible personality and it just sucked all the fun out of the series)

[Forum Explorer]

This is sorta off topic but here is my biggest problem with WW. The fact that when the world flooded the Zora's evolved into Bird people. I like the bird people but when I was first playing through I was guessing they were descendents of Gorons and I was hoping to find Zoras later. But no. The Gorons went extinct (fair enough) we don't get actual Zoras (again fair enough) but the bird people are the Zora descendents? That makes too little sense for me to handle.

[OracleofWuffing]

I didn't say the American style was bad, I said that WW wasn't using American style and was using Chibi anime style. I then procceded to say that the TV SERIES was atrocious, not the style that they drew it in (Mainly because link had a horrible personality and it just sucked all the fun out of the series)

Very well then.

Some of us like the TV Series. :smallmad: That includes its smug jerk idiot Hero of Hyrule and grossly incompetent supporting entire cast. :smalltongue:


This is sorta off topic but here is my biggest problem with WW. The fact that when the world flooded the Zora's evolved into Bird people. I like the bird people but when I was first playing through I was guessing they were descendents of Gorons and I was hoping to find Zoras later. But no. The Gorons went extinct (fair enough) we don't get actual Zoras (again fair enough) but the bird people are the Zora descendents? That makes too little sense for me to handle.
Yeah, when I first caught that, I was like, "Well, the fins of a Zora are kind of like the wings of a Rito," but then little else is of that level of similarity, then Zora had tadpole larvae, then Zora Warriors are apparently also Zoras and they continue to exist so- yeah, maybe I shouldn't think about this too much.

I mean, I guess this is kind of ironic, because I haven't been able to convince myself to play Twilight Princess.

[Tychris1]

It's actually a cunning joke on evolution. You see evolutionary scientist, not having much to go off of, decided to go to the one place with the most animals in the world. The ocean. In it they found that, GASP, fish had gills! And that those gills resembled wings on a bird! Thus they came to a logical conclusion that fish used to use them to slowly adapt to glide in the air. They would swim forward at high speeds, jumping out of the water, flapping there gills until they eventually learned to fly and fight there main competitor and predator dinosaur cyborgs that roar lasers (mainly pterodactyls). They engaged in massive air battles, suffocating the dinosaurs with pure numbers, and crashing the pterodactlys into the water causing there fuel rods to explode. The dinosaurs, now on there last legs (literally) released a deevolution roar that reverted the fish and threw the planet out of whack, extincting the dinosaurs and several hundred other species. Thus solidifying there valid beliefs making them rich and famous.

Or more likely it was glanced over and not given muchthought by the development crew.

[Mewtarthio]

The Rito get their wings through magic dragon scales. Also, let's not forget how the Kokiri "evolved" into wood sprites and how a group of people with an unspecified debt of some sort towards the King of Red Lions "evolved" into a race of ichthyoid cartographers.

What I'm trying to say is, a wizard did it.

[Prime32]

This is sorta off topic but here is my biggest problem with WW. The fact that when the world flooded the Zora's evolved into Bird people. I like the bird people but when I was first playing through I was guessing they were descendents of Gorons and I was hoping to find Zoras later. But no. The Gorons went extinct (fair enough) we don't get actual Zoras (again fair enough) but the bird people are the Zora descendents? That makes too little sense for me to handle.Note that when they talk about the Grappling Hook, it appears they lost their ability to swim long before they gained their ability to fly.

I thought the answer was obvious - the gods stripped the Zora of their abilities so that they couldn't reach Hyrule. Eventually they got compensation.


And the Gorons aren't extinct - there's an explorer looking for the "Triumph Forks" (and you can use the Deku Leaf to blow his hat off), and WW's sequels show that they just migrated to another part of the world.

The Rito get their wings through magic dragon scales. Also, let's not forget how the Kokiri "evolved" into wood sprites and how a group of people with an unspecified debt of some sort towards the King of Red Lions "evolved" into a race of ichthyoid cartographers.

What I'm trying to say is, a wizard did it.The Kokiri always were wood spirits. After the first Deku Tree died and they left Kokiri Forest they eventually lost their glamer, basically.

[DiscipleofBob]

You know what would have made the entire game worth it though?

An appearance, even a cameo, by the Wind Fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Fish#Characters).

[Sipex]

You should probably play Phantom Hourglass then.

I have no qualms with someone not liking the art style as long as they're not going to judge the game until they've tried it. It's totally you're right to say "It doesn't interest me" but if you start bashing it without trying it you can go eat a lemon.

Also, why are we arguing science in a Zelda game?

[Seerow]

You should probably play Phantom Hourglass then.

I have no qualms with someone not liking the art style as long as they're not going to judge the game until they've tried it. It's totally you're right to say "It doesn't interest me" but if you start bashing it without trying it you can go eat a lemon.

Also, why are we arguing science in a Zelda game?

I like eating lemons....

[TheSummoner]

I thought the answer was obvious - the gods stripped the Zora of their abilities so that they couldn't reach Hyrule. Eventually they got compensation.

I heard somewhere that Zoras were freshwater fish people... That might've been a big part of it as well.


You know what would have made the entire game worth it though?

An appearance, even a cameo, by the Wind Fish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_Fish#Characters).

Oh god, even a small reference or nod to the Wind Fish would've been great. Link's Awakening was my first Zelda game... And still one of my favorite.

[Triscuitable]

Hm... Longshot idea here. Har har! Longshot!

Get him this (http://www.amazon.com/Legend-Zelda-Complete-Cynthia-Preston/dp/B000AA4F2E/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309922275&sr=8-1), and show him what a real cartoon Link looks and acts like. Bonus points if you get him a CDi and its Zelda games, then he'll practically beg for Wind Waker.

He grew up with that series. Contrast to most fan's beliefs on it, he loved it. The Super Mario Bros. Super Show was his second favorite. Also, I once caught a wind fish. (http://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Wind_Fish) It was yummy.

[Geno9999]

Wind Waker is actually a dark game. Think about it. The world you saved in OoT? GONE. Ganondorf makes good of his curse and manages to slip back out of the seal and continue on destroying Hyrule.
That alone made me start crying after I beat OoT and watched the people dancing and celebrating. The people were blissfully ignorant of what I knew, that regardless of what Zelda has done (or if you interpret it differently, because of what Zelda did), Ganon will return, and there won't be a hero to stop him.
The happy-looking world is saccharine to me. This is a post-apocalypse world. The aesthetics downplay the dark themes, but that only makes the themes more apparent.

[Knaight]

The happy-looking world is saccharine to me. This is a post-apocalypse world. The aesthetics downplay the dark themes, but that only makes the themes more apparent.
It was once a post-apocalypse world in the common sense, and still is in technicality. However, a more accurate turn of phrase would be "a world that recovered from apocalypse". Sure, its changed heavily, but civilization has come again, and it is as much a functioning, civilized world as any in the series. Admittedly, that isn't a high bar to cross, but it is certainly no worse.

[742]

So the thread title speaks for itself. I have an uncle who played through The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, and loved it, but he refuses to play the Wind Waker... Because it looks like a cartoon. This is irritating, because in my opinion, it is FAR better than Twilight Princess (even though TP is an amazing game as well), so I need the help of my fellow forum-poster-guys/gals to help me convince him that it's a game he needs to play, regardless of how it looks.

Please. It's ridiculous that he played Twilight Princess to 100% completion, and still refuses to play a game he hasn't played yet.
he wont play a game "because it looks like a cartoon" but he will play a game with "princess" in the title? that should get him if its for the reasons i think it is.

[DiscipleofBob]

On the actual topic of convincing your uncle to at least try WW, you know what might work? Going up against some of the more epic-looking bosses as he "just happens" to be in the room.

If you make the game look fun enough and epic enough despite the character designs in his presence, he might be at least willing to give the game a look.

[Triscuitable]

Wind Waker is actually a dark game. Think about it. The world you saved in OoT? GONE. Ganondorf makes good of his curse and manages to slip back out of the seal and continue on destroying Hyrule.
That alone made me start crying after I beat OoT and watched the people dancing and celebrating. The people were blissfully ignorant of what I knew, that regardless of what Zelda has done (or if you interpret it differently, because of what Zelda did), Ganon will return, and there won't be a hero to stop him.
The happy-looking world is saccharine to me. This is a post-apocalypse world. The aesthetics downplay the dark themes, but that only makes the themes more apparent.

The thing is, Wind Waker is an alternate universe in the series. It's one where the hero failed to appear to Ganon in the final battle. OoT is the first chronologically, remember? (Skyward Sword is set to be placed even earlier though.)

[Sipex]

I believe you might be a bit confused. Wind Waker allegedly occurs after Ocarina of Time during the Adult time line when Link defeats Ganondorf and seals him away. Link returns to the present and changes the flow of time by having Ganondorf captured pre-emptively in the child timeline. This creates two different timelines.

In the adult time line Ganondorf eventually breaks free and does his thing again (ie: Ravage and destroy). Everyone expects Link to show up again but he never does (he's reincarnating in the child timeline) so the gods flood Hyrule to prevent Ganon from getting the Triforce.

[Geno9999]

The thing is, Wind Waker is an alternate universe in the series. It's one where the hero failed to appear to Ganon in the final battle. OoT is the first chronologically, remember? (Skyward Sword is set to be placed even earlier though.)

Yes, WW is in an alternate universe. However, it not that you missed the final battle in OoT that causes WW, but that Zelda sent Link back in time to before pulling out the Master Sword for the first time is what causes the timeline split. In the intro (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujEZQbBi2Yc), it tells us that Link defeated Ganon, but it was only temporary. When Ganon came back, there was no Link because... Zelda sent him back in time and split the timeline in two (otherwise, we would be playing that game instead.)

[Sipex]

Oh, I misunderstood why the timeline split.

Makes sense though.

[Prime32]

Note that OoT was the first game in the series when it was released. Many believe that Minish Cap was a prequel. (though the Capcom Zeldas as a whole are confusing to fit in)


The confirmed parts of the timeline, with colours representing different Links:

Ocarina of Time (child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess -> A Link to the Past -> The Legend of Zelda -> Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Ocarina of Time (adult) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> Spirit Tracks

[TheSummoner]

Seems about right...

Originally I was going to nitpick Legend of Zelda and Zelda II, but despite it certainly being a different Zelda (supposibly the FIRST Zelda who has been in a magic coma since... A long-ass time), apparently it's the same Link. (wrap your head around that one...)

Oh, and you missed one. Link's Awakening follows Link to the Pask and is the same Link.

Edit: Oh... Minish Cap/Four Swords/Four Swords Adventures in that order. No clue if the Links are the same in any of them, but these do take place at some point before Ocarina of Time. (At release, Four Swords was "the oldest in the series")

Edit 2: And while both Twilight Princess and Link to the Past are confirmed to be after Ocarina of Time, there isn't any direct confirmation as far as I know which order the two are in. It is likely that Twilight Princess (Over 100 years after Ocarina of Time) preceeds Link to the Past (Many centuries after Ocarina of Time), but we shouldn't rule out intentionally vague wording.

Edit 3: Skyward Sword is confirmed to take place at some point before Ocarina of Time. No clue on the Oracle games.

That should just about cover it...

[Prime32]

Oh, and you missed one. Link's Awakening follows Link to the Pask and is the same Link.You'd be surprised how much debate there is over that.


Edit: Oh... Minish Cap/Four Swords/Four Swords Adventures in that order. No clue if the Links are the same in any of them, but these do take place at some point before Ocarina of Time. (At release, Four Swords was "the oldest in the series")Four Swords Adventures is set in LttP-era Hyrule though, and features Ganondorf permanently transforming into LttP's Ganon. They definitely don't have the same Link.
Minish Cap must be set before the other two games, since it depicts Vaati gaining his powers and the creation of the Four Sword.


Edit 2: And while both Twilight Princess and Link to the Past are confirmed to be after Ocarina of Time, there isn't any direct confirmation as far as I know which order the two are in. It is likely that Twilight Princess (Over 100 years after Ocarina of Time) preceeds Link to the Past (Many centuries after Ocarina of Time), but we shouldn't rule out intentionally vague wording.TP has the Master Sword in the ruins of OoT's Temple of Time, which are being overcome by forest and starting to resemble the clearing where it rested in LttP. Plus the ending of LttP states "The Master Sword rests FOREVER." (Zelda 1/2 did not use it)


Edit 3: Skyward Sword is confirmed to take place at some point before Ocarina of Time. No clue on the Oracle games.I don't want to say that for sure yet, since while TP was in development they said it would take place between OoT and WW. Then they said it was a sequel to WW.

[Mewtarthio]

Originally I was going to nitpick Legend of Zelda and Zelda II, but despite it certainly being a different Zelda (supposibly the FIRST Zelda who has been in a magic coma since... A long-ass time), apparently it's the same Link. (wrap your head around that one...)

Hang on, you mean the Zelda II Zelda is the OoT Zelda? That original Zelda?

Do you have any links to confirm that? Because it sounds like that would require her to somehow lose her Triforce of Wisdom.

Speaking of losing the Triforce, can anyone confirm how the Triforce got split in the child timeline and shattered in the adult? From the dialogue in WW, I initially inferred that WW was in the child timeline, and Link lost the Triforce when he went to Termina; however, TP makes more sense as a sequel to the child timeline, and it obviously can't take place in the WW timeline.

Basically, regarding the shattering of the Triforce, did that happen when Link was sent back in time? And, for the child timeline, how did the Triforce pieces get to their respective owners if Link never opened the Temple of Time? I'd be willing to accept that the Triforce is transcendent and effectively split itself when Link traveled back in time, but, if that were the case, how would Ganon get arrested in the first place?

Argh, Zelda timelines are confusing!

[DiscipleofBob]

Technically speaking, while it's possible that at least some of the LoZ's take place in the same universe, it's supposed to be a different Link, Zelda, etc. each time (barring obvious continuations like Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask).

[Alchemistmerlin]

you can go eat a lemon.

...

I like lemons...:smallconfused:



Hang on, you mean the Zelda II Zelda is the OoT Zelda? That original Zelda?

Do you have any links to confirm that? Because it sounds like that would require her to somehow lose her Triforce of Wisdom.

Speaking of losing the Triforce, can anyone confirm how the Triforce got split in the child timeline and shattered in the adult? From the dialogue in WW, I initially inferred that WW was in the child timeline, and Link lost the Triforce when he went to Termina; however, TP makes more sense as a sequel to the child timeline, and it obviously can't take place in the WW timeline.

Basically, regarding the shattering of the Triforce, did that happen when Link was sent back in time? And, for the child timeline, how did the Triforce pieces get to their respective owners if Link never opened the Temple of Time? I'd be willing to accept that the Triforce is transcendent and effectively split itself when Link traveled back in time, but, if that were the case, how would Ganon get arrested in the first place?

Argh, Zelda timelines are confusing!

It is really pointless to try and follow or create a continuity in Zelda. I know that Ninty CLAIMS there is a master document that explains the whole timeline and makes it work, but the level of planning that would require (as well as the level of cooperation between the various groups working on all the various games), makes it pretty clear that statement is a lie.

The Warcraft/Marvel/DC people can't keep a story straight across 1 year and a single-company oversight, what makes you think 25 years of Zelda can?

[Sipex]

Due to the nature of the internet I can't tell.

Are you just joking or do you not understand the expression?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Due to the nature of the internet I can't tell.

Are you just joking or do you not understand the expression?

It isn't an expression I'm familiar with, but I figured it out from context, so my "I like lemons" was a joke mostly :smallwink:

[druid91]

...

I like lemons...:smallconfused:




It is really pointless to try and follow or create a continuity in Zelda. I know that Ninty CLAIMS there is a master document that explains the whole timeline and makes it work, but the level of planning that would require (as well as the level of cooperation between the various groups working on all the various games), makes it pretty clear that statement is a lie.

The Warcraft/Marvel/DC people can't keep a story straight across 1 year and a single-company oversight, what makes you think 25 years of Zelda can?

Because. Nintendo is actually run by a plethora of superbeings with advanced technology dedicated to our entertainment.

Hence why a gameboy can survive a military bombing run.

[Sipex]

Also why none of the staff seem to age at the same rate as the rest of us.

[Zevox]

It is really pointless to try and follow or create a continuity in Zelda. I know that Ninty CLAIMS there is a master document that explains the whole timeline and makes it work, but the level of planning that would require (as well as the level of cooperation between the various groups working on all the various games), makes it pretty clear that statement is a lie.
I'd agree. Aside from extremely obvious sequels that explicitly reference each other, I personally just ignore attempts to create a timeline out of the series. With the way the games are structured there's really no point to connecting them anyway - it's not like their respective stories really influence each other.

Besides, sometimes it becomes pretty ludicrous to claim different Zelda games are connected. For instance, Twilight Princess' backstory for Ganondorf and the Sages does not at all resemble the story of Ocarina of Time, plus in order for it to be an OoT sequel we'd have to accept that Hyrule's geography was radically altered in between the two games in spite of no catastrophic event ala Wind Waker's flood or something to explain that.

Zevox

[Prime32]

Besides, sometimes it becomes pretty ludicrous to claim different Zelda games are connected. For instance, Twilight Princess' backstory for Ganondorf and the Sages does not at all resemble the story of Ocarina of Time, plus in order for it to be an OoT sequel we'd have to accept that Hyrule's geography was radically altered in between the two games in spite of no catastrophic event ala Wind Waker's flood or something to explain that.TP's story doesn't resemble OoT's because it isn't. When Link was sent back in time at the end of the game things turned out completely different, and the original sages were never killed. We're never shown how Ganondorf was defeated in that timeline, though it's implied to have been what LttP called The Imprisoning War. (one of the sages shown in LttP's intro appears to be on their knees, matching Ganondorf's murder of one of them)

Geography can be handwaved as "the same thing would be boring" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaosArchitecture), but there are still clear references to both OoT and LttP (note that the map was flipped on the Wii version). Besides, it took place a very long time after OoT.



Hang on, you mean the Zelda II Zelda is the OoT Zelda? That original Zelda?

Do you have any links to confirm that? Because it sounds like that would require her to somehow lose her Triforce of Wisdom.Nope. Every female member of the Hylian Royal Family is named Zelda, and the kingdom didn't begin with OoT. It's in the Zelda II manual, and involves a prince who has never been depicted in any game.


Basically, regarding the shattering of the Triforce, did that happen when Link was sent back in time? And, for the child timeline, how did the Triforce pieces get to their respective owners if Link never opened the Temple of Time? I'd be willing to accept that the Triforce is transcendent and effectively split itself when Link traveled back in time, but, if that were the case, how would Ganon get arrested in the first place?Well, note that in TP's backstory when Ganondorf escapes the Sages seem surprised that he has the Triforce of Power.

[TheSummoner]

You'd be surprised how much debate there is over that.

Based on this (http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nintendo.co.jp%2Fn02%2Fdmg%2Faz lj%2Fsutori.html), it's the same Link from LttP.


Four Swords Adventures is set in LttP-era Hyrule though, and features Ganondorf permanently transforming into LttP's Ganon. They definitely don't have the same Link.
Minish Cap must be set before the other two games, since it depicts Vaati gaining his powers and the creation of the Four Sword.

I can't find a source, but I'm fairly certain it was said in an interview that at the time of it's release, Four Swords was chronologically first and that Four Swords Adventures was a sequel. Yeah, Minish cap is a prequel to those and I don't think anyone is debating that much.

Where are you getting Adventures being in LttP-era Hyrule? I haven't played that one in forever so I'm curious... was that mentioned ingame or is it just speculation on your part or what?


TP has the Master Sword in the ruins of OoT's Temple of Time, which are being overcome by forest and starting to resemble the clearing where it rested in LttP. Plus the ending of LttP states "The Master Sword rests FOREVER." (Zelda 1/2 did not use it)

Like I said, TP -> LttP makes the most sense. I'm just not willing to rule out vague wording and/or retcon (Do you think they were planning for TP back in 1991 when LttP was released?).


I don't want to say that for sure yet, since while TP was in development they said it would take place between OoT and WW. Then they said it was a sequel to WW.

Fair enough.


Hang on, you mean the Zelda II Zelda is the OoT Zelda? That original Zelda?

Do you have any links to confirm that? Because it sounds like that would require her to somehow lose her Triforce of Wisdom.

The Zelda II manual said something to the effect of the Zelda II Zelda being the first Zelda and the reason that all of the other Zeldas are named Zelda. (ever notice how some words start to lose all meaning if you say them too much? Zelda. Zelda Zelda Zelda. Zelda Zelda Zelda Zelda Zelda...)


Argh, Zelda timelines are confusing!

Yep.

[OracleofWuffing]

It is really pointless to try and follow or create a continuity in Zelda. I know that Ninty CLAIMS there is a master document that explains the whole timeline and makes it work, but the level of planning that would require (as well as the level of cooperation between the various groups working on all the various games), makes it pretty clear that statement is a lie.
Yeah, I thought what caused the so-called time split was marketing realizing that they could sell the game better, lose less dedicated customers, and get more people talking about new games just by stating that there was a grand unified super-storyline going on here, but then someone else decided to officialize his own Zelda fan-fic when it became clear old guard was stepping down to oversight and they needed new people to work on the series. :smalltongue:


Like I said, TP -> LttP makes the most sense. I'm just not willing to rule out vague wording and/or retcon (Do you think they were planning for TP back in 1991 when LttP was released?).
:smallconfused: Actually, I'd heard that those words were removed from the GBA release's ending... Though I wouldn't be surprised if the person who told me that made that part up, creating one big double-something of uncertainty in the matter. (To make matters worse, I would insist that the presence of retconning proves that there wasn't some big plan for all the Zelda games, but what do I know about storylines?)

[Tychris1]

I was more confused playing LoZ games then when I watched Pulp Fiction.

[VanBuren]

I thought WW's graphics were great. Things were smoother than TP despite the latter being on a more powerful console (they're the best implementation of cel-shading I've ever seen), and detail is no substitute for style. The dungeons felt very organic, with squirming roots etc. The characters were highly expressive, and the bosses were epic in scale.

Link was young in half of Ocarina of Time (not to mention Majora's Mask), and is implied to have been young in earlier games. :smallconfused: He was young in Four Swords at least, which is supposed to be concurrent with LttP.

Implied? The Zelda II manual explicitly states that immediately prior to the game, Link--the same link of the first game--turned 16. That one was said right out. There's really only one other Link before we get into OoT territory, and that's LttP/LA Link* who lives with his uncle. Judging from the conversation at the very beginning, it definitely doesn't sound like Link is a legal adult.

So you bring up a valid point. Rather than adult heroes being the norm, and the child protagonists of MM and WW** being the shift, at least in LoZ, an adult Link was the departure, albeit a welcome one.

*Yes, I know there's debate over whether this is the same Link. But the manual makes it clear that the original intention was a direct sequel.

**Funny coincidence.

[TheSummoner]

Really it depends on how you define "adult"

I don't think there's ever been an 18+ Link so atleast by modern standards, they're all children.

[VanBuren]

Really it depends on how you define "adult"

I don't think there's ever been an 18+ Link so atleast by modern standards, they're all children.

Eh, 17 is close enough.

[Knaight]

I don't think there's ever been an 18+ Link so atleast by modern standards, they're all children.

In some cases it is ambiguous. TP link could easily be 18+. Besides, even by modern standards, that would be adult in many places in the world.

[TheSummoner]

TP Link was 17, as was OoT Adult Link. Zelda II Link was 16. Those are the three oldest in the series.

Yeah, close enough. It was just a random thought that popped into my head when people complaining about "Child hero" versions Link and whatnot.

[VanBuren]

Note that OoT was the first game in the series when it was released. Many believe that Minish Cap was a prequel. (though the Capcom Zeldas as a whole are confusing to fit in)


The confirmed parts of the timeline, with colours representing different Links:

Ocarina of Time (child) -> Majora's Mask -> Twilight Princess -> A Link to the Past -> The Legend of Zelda -> Zelda II: The Adventure of Link
Ocarina of Time (adult) -> The Wind Waker -> Phantom Hourglass -> Spirit Tracks

These are the major threads I would say are confirmed.

The Legend of Zelda --> The Adventure of Link*

Ocarina of Time** --> A Link to the Past*** --> Link's Awakening****

Ocarina of Time (Child Timeline) --> Majora's Mask --> Twilight Princess

Ocarina of Time (Adult Timeline) --> The Wind Waker --> Phantom Hourglass --> Spirit Tracks

Oracle of Ages <--> Oracle of Seasons*****

The Minish Cap****** --> Four Swords******* --> Four Swords Adventures

Beyond that it gets difficult to say, but there are some things to keep in mind.

*This Zelda cannot be the first Zelda, as the Triforce of Courage could not have been hidden prior to OoT.

**Ganondorf's first bid for the Triforce. Obviously predates Wind Waker and Twilight Princess. Likely predates AoL as town names in that game are names of the sages in the adult timeline.

***Obviously takes place after Ganondorf's original bid for the Triforce and subsequent imprisonment. Additionally, due to the fact that Link ushers in a Golden Age and the Master Sword is never again used in this timeline, this likely occurs towards the end of the timeline.

****More than likely involves the same Link from LttP, but perhaps after the Oracle games.

*****Difficult to place. Linked ending implies LA, but is inconsistent with established LA backstory. Further, the implication that Link and Zelda haven't met contradicts events of LttP. Most likely stand alone events. Ganon's ultimate fate unclear.

******Perhaps the earliest games in the saga? Little to go on besides the tradition of a green hat possibly beginning here. The beginning of the Vaati saga, so before FS or FSA and consequently LttP.

*******While Word of God held this to be the first game chronologically, the fact that this Link is very likely to be the same as FSA makes that unlikely. FSA is likely a prequel to LttP as it details how Ganondorf became "stuck" as Ganon.

[DiscipleofBob]

TP Link was 17, as was OoT Adult Link. Zelda II Link was 16. Those are the three oldest in the series.

Yeah, close enough. It was just a random thought that popped into my head when people complaining about "Child hero" versions Link and whatnot.

Um...

16 and 17-year olds are NOT children.

They are teenagers. While they may not qualify completely as adults in most modern societies they are FAR from the children of Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, etc.

Would you rather we use the terms prepubescent and postpubescent?

[Deme]

Um...

16 and 17-year olds are NOT children.

They are teenagers. While they may not qualify completely as adults in most modern societies they are FAR from the children of Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, etc.

Would you rather we use the terms prepubescent and postpubescent?

Not to mention, Hyrule never has been a modern society. If we look at Twilight Princess's Link, he's a post-adolescent male who owns a house, a means of earning money (Epona), and holds down a steady job, without any obvious external guardianship. I'm pretty sure that his society considers him a young adult, and as long as he exists in that context, I think we should, too.

Come to that... While we clearly see Wind Waker's Link as a child, I think we're mistaken to do so out-of-hand. Isn't the whole point of him getting the hero's clothes a coming-of-age ceremony of sorts? Those things generally mean that you're an adult now, and those things mean that he's been, more-or-less, raised to be ready to be entering the early stages of adulthood at this point in his life. That said, he spends most of the game in situations where he's being treated as a child, so I think there's some leeway there, since if that is a coming-of-age ceremony, it's not one shared in other parts of the Great Sea, where he'd be considered a child.
Also, because I can't remember if I'm making that up.

Adulthood, outside of the physical elements, is something a society constructs. So's childhood. I think it's important to respect each character's standing in their own society to say if they're adults or not. It holds up the sanctity of the fictional world, which is required for discussing if a character's an adult or child anyway.

[Sipex]

Let's not get into semantics. Basically we have two groups of Link. 'Younger' and 'Older'.

Unless a future Link shows up in diapers or with greying hair I really don't see the need to get any more diverse than that.

Also, the Oracle games are somehow linked to Ocarina of Time although I have no idea how closely. Spoilers for those who've never done the link up ending.

Upon linking up the game the true final boss is Ganon who is revived (specifically is said to be revived) by Twinrova. This means either the Twinrova sisters also re-incarnate, live an incredibly long time or that this Link is the OoT Link.

That said, it's really really hard to tell, because Ganon isn't killed in OoT. In fact, since he's 'revived' it makes me think it might be linked to ALttP or the original LoZ instead.

It is also implied that the Link in these games is already famous for past deeds and he has a horse which looks like Epona but may not be.

edit: I'd put WW link at pre-puberty considering his voice. That said, he could be anywhere from 10-16 depending.

[TheSummoner]

Yeah... That's kinda why I used the words "by modern standards"

I really don't care enough about semantics to argue something this stupid. Once again "just a random thought that popped into my head when people complained about "Child hero" versions Link and whatnot."

[Prime32]

Not to mention, Hyrule never has been a modern society. If we look at Twilight Princess's Link, he's a post-adolescent male who owns a house, a means of earning money (Epona), and holds down a steady job, without any obvious external guardianship. I'm pretty sure that his society considers him a young adult, and as long as he exists in that context, I think we should, too.Uh, doesn't that apply to OoT's Child Link too? At least in Kokiri society.

[VanBuren]

Let's not get into semantics. Basically we have two groups of Link. 'Younger' and 'Older'.

Unless a future Link shows up in diapers or with greying hair I really don't see the need to get any more diverse than that.

Also, the Oracle games are somehow linked to Ocarina of Time although I have no idea how closely. Spoilers for those who've never done the link up ending.

Upon linking up the game the true final boss is Ganon who is revived (specifically is said to be revived) by Twinrova. This means either the Twinrova sisters also re-incarnate, live an incredibly long time or that this Link is the OoT Link.

That said, it's really really hard to tell, because Ganon isn't killed in OoT. In fact, since he's 'revived' it makes me think it might be linked to ALttP or the original LoZ instead.

It is also implied that the Link in these games is already famous for past deeds and he has a horse which looks like Epona but may not be.

edit: I'd put WW link at pre-puberty considering his voice. That said, he could be anywhere from 10-16 depending.

WW Link gets his clothes for being the same age as the legendary Hero of Time. So he's probably 16-17, although that's kind of hard to tell from the style.

[Alchemistmerlin]

WW Link gets his clothes for being the same age as the legendary Hero of Time. So he's probably 16-17, although that's kind of hard to tell from the style.

I feel like its fair to say that the legend may have had a bit of age-shift throughout retellings and traditions.


I feel like its also safe to say that no one you encounter in the games is a reliable narrator.


Most people get parts of the story handed down through the ages...except the King of Red Lions. But come on, he's a friggin' boat.

[VanBuren]

Maybe. But at the same time, the incredibly stylized art of WW makes it very hard to determine Link's age with certainty.

Oh, and according to the Zelda wiki I had it wrong. I've been saying that OoT Link was 10 and 17 respectively. Apparently the official ages are 9 and 16. Although, it's probably close enough.

[Triscuitable]

Maybe. But at the same time, the incredibly stylized art of WW makes it very hard to determine Link's age with certainty.

Oh, and according to the Zelda wiki I had it wrong. I've been saying that OoT Link was 10 and 17 respectively. Apparently the official ages are 9 and 16. Although, it's probably close enough.

We can assume Link in WW is around 9-12, concerning his voice pitch and height alone. The fact that most of the titles in the series are coming of age stories would support that.

Of course, after reading how every single generation of child named Link has been 16 upon his triumph over Ganon, it's more than likely that his birthday is him turning 16. Link in Ocarina was nine, in Zelda II he was 15 going on 16 at the end of the quest, etc.

[DiscipleofBob]

WW Link couldn't be more than 12-years old, unless he has some Edward Elric levels of shortness.

Despite the fact that the game is stylized, we still see a difference between children and adults grown individuals in the game.

WW Link is among the former, though he's definitely taller than the really young children (I think I remember some sort of hide and seek minigame in one of the towns though I could be wrong), so he's most likely in the 10-13 range, a prime age for unlikely childhood protagonist.

Coming-of-age ceremonies, depending on the culture, can be anywhere from 8 years old to adulthood. In WW, it specifically mentions dressing young males in the garb of the child version of Link.


The elders of Outset Island customarily dress their male youths in green like the Hero of Time when they become the same age as the child Link of Ocarina of Time, hoping to inspire in them the courage the Hero of Time knew.

Quote from Legend of Zelda wiki.

[VanBuren]

But how would they know the age of child Link? And for that matter, how many people of Hyrule would actually recognize the Hero of Time as that Fairy Boy who was loose in the kingdom for maybe a week or two, tops?

[Sipex]

The second question I can answer as Link runs into a few people who remember him or know of him (mainly Malon, the little goron Link and of course, Zelda). Add to that, if the sages have any say in the legends then you've got a solid backing.

I have no idea on the age thing though, I don't actually remember that being stated in wind waker.

[TheSummoner]

Well... Malon and Zelda. Any of the Gorons. King Zora. Thosse are all pretty safe bets.

Edit: Ninjas.

[VanBuren]

Well... Malon and Zelda. Any of the Gorons. King Zora. Thosse are all pretty safe bets.

Edit: Ninjas.

Here's the problem though. That kind of thing would have to be like, a cultural memory for it to work. So that only explanation would really have to be that someone--presumably Zelda--would have been aware of Link's adventure and spread the legend around.

Nobody else was as intimately involved with his doings as she was, but there are a great number of people who interacted with him, however briefly. His existence and impact firmly established, Zelda would only need to elaborate on his history. So... it could work, I guess.

[Alchemistmerlin]

Man.

I'm going home and playing Wind Waker tonight.

[Triscuitable]

Man.

I'm going home and playing Wind Waker tonight.

Damn straight.

[Lhurgyof]

So the thread title speaks for itself. I have an uncle who played through The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, and loved it, but he refuses to play the Wind Waker... Because it looks like a cartoon. This is irritating, because in my opinion, it is FAR better than Twilight Princess (even though TP is an amazing game as well), so I need the help of my fellow forum-poster-guys/gals to help me convince him that it's a game he needs to play, regardless of how it looks.

Please. It's ridiculous that he played Twilight Princess to 100% completion, and still refuses to play a game he hasn't played yet.

I'm not a big of how they did the capcom art style, but I freaking love Wind Waker.

Twilight Princess had a nice presentation, though as well.

I dunno how to convince him. Maybe play the game in front of him and show him how bad ass it really is?