You lost the stat roulette. Now what?

[Squeejee]

So, in a recent IRL game, I rolled the worst stats I ever have - 10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 9. Now, I have a super cool DM, so I'm sure I could get a re roll if I asked, but I think I want to play this out. Put what I know about d&d 3.5 to the test, if you will, by making an effective character out of those stats, somehow. First question is, if you had to make a character out of this roll, how would you do it? In my specific case, it's SRD only, but I'm sure other sources would be okayed if I ask.

My own thoughts mostly involve Druid, with as much wild shaping as I can get per battle, but a wild shape build can still rely on my mental statistics, and my goal is NAD - No Attribute Dependency.

Second thought: how would you go about building a character with a "10" in every stat? Are there any creative ways to get around feat requirements? I know some classes like Monk give bonus feats that you ignore the prerequisites for, but I fear Monk would drag the build down.

I'm mostly looking for practical optimization here, nothing that will get a book thrown at me.

[Zaq]

SRD only? You're pretty much boned. With all books open, a Bard could get by with those stats (since most bardic music doesn't care about your stats, you see), but without ways to optimize it, you're just a sticky note saying "remember the +2, guys!"

If you can push for Complete Arcane, Warlock is a good bet. Their big class features don't strictly NEED any stats, at least if you avoid choices that allow saving throws. One is an at-will touch attack lazor pew pew, so while it benefits from DEX, it doesn't strictly need it . . . and the other thing they get could be likened to at-will spells, many of which are buffs or other things that don't allow saves. They don't have a minimum stat requirement, and they don't get bonus spells for having good stats, so they can get by without any CHA (which is their stat of choice, if they want to allow saves).

So yeah. Bard (with a few extra feats and items and spells and stuff) or Warlock are your best choices.

If you really want to stay SRD-only, personally, I'd play a Rogue. Sure, 8 skill points (9 if human) isn't really enough, but it's a start, and max ranks in a skill is more important than having an 18 in the relevant stat. Just pick your skillset and stick with it. For combat, hide in the back and make touch attacks with flasks of acid or alchemist's fire (a little costly compared to arrows or daggers, but the fact that you'd actually hit, since it's a touch attack? Yeah, worth it) or whatever.

[Flickerdart]

Warlocks don't care about stats if you don't take invocations that offer saves. Binders also don't need stats, I do believe. In the SRD? You are hosed.

I do believe there are rerolling rules somewhere - something about a net modifier of +5?

[Ravens_cry]

When you have a -2 total modifier, I would definitely get a re-roll.
But if you really want to play it, I think dragonfire adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) might do it. If you avoid invocations with saves and be careful not to be caught in combat, um, maybe you could do it.

[Zaq]

When you have a -2 total modifier, I would definitely get a re-roll.
But if you really want to play it, I think dragonfire adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) might do it. If you avoid invocations with saves and be careful not to be caught in combat, um, maybe you could do it.

All breath weapons allow saves. You're better off with a Warlock.

EDIT: I do admit that, in this particular case, being online is an advantage the DFA has over the Warlock, but I still maintain that if Complete Arcane can become an option, the Warlock will be the better choice.

[Callista]

'Nother vote for Warlock. But depending on what level you're starting at, those stat increases every fourth level may change things somewhat. There's a world of difference between an 11 and a 14, which you could have in your highest stat at level 12.

I'm of the firm opinion that characters with no weaknesses are boring, so I think it should be fun--if you can keep the character alive. But, you say you have a flexible DM, so make sure that if your character is really dragging the party down or getting boring to play, you'll be allowed to either rebuild with point-buy or a re-roll, or bring in a backup at close to average party level.

Another option is talking your DM into letting you gestalt the character, but I'm not sure about the balance on that one, as I haven't got any experience with gestalt games.

[dgnslyr]

Warlock, I believe, is generally the go-to class for NAD, because kamehameha hadoken Eldritch Blast isn't dependent on any stats, and most of the Warlock abilities that allow saves aren't spectacular, so blast away. Access to UMD also helps.

[Worira]

Druid. Be a bear, who has a buddy who also is a bear.

[begooler]

I'm not sure that a druid that can't cast better than level 0 spells is 'hosed.' You may still be more playable than a monk with good stats. You could go Mounted Combat- no ability score requirements for that chain, and you already have a free mount. Maybe an uncommonly played race like goblin, that gets you some dex and a ride bonus. If you venture out of SRD, halflings have racial substitution levels available, and you could go halfling outrider (though you'd lose wild shape progression.)

Wild shape into an ape, and ride in on your dinosaur. Boom.

Also, just because you can't cast those druid spells doesn't mean you can't use wands on the druid spell list.

[PollyOliver]

10 in every stat? It'll suck to play until level 5, but wild shape ranger/master of many forms/warshaper would be my bet.

[Morbis Meh]

Wildshape ranger would do alright since you would get high physical stats from your wildshape ability so you would do just fine once you hit level 5 then prestige into MoMF and possible Warshaper

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Eurus]

Play... a venerable druid. Wisdom of 14 at minimum, and spend 24 hours a day as a bear. :smalltongue:

[erikun]

Druid works out pretty well. You can cast 0th and 1st level spells to start with (11 Wisdom), and while you will be behind the curve in the spellcasting department, +5 Wisdom due to levels and a +6 Wisdom item gets you up to 22 Wisdom, enough for your highest level spellcasting. Wildshape, obviously, helps a lot with being relevant in combat.

Wildshape Ranger has the same benefits of the Druid, although without 9th level spells. You'd want to focus on Constitution though, since bonus HP are the only physical stat you carry over while wildshaped and a +6 Wisdom item grants you the highest level Ranger spells anyways (assuming WS Ranger still has spellcasting).

Warlock, as mentioned, doesn't need any stats to do well. Eldritch Blast doesn't require a saving throw, and Warlocks don't need a specific amount of Charisma to learn and use Invocations (unlike other spellcasters, who need 10+spell level).

Rogue probably wouldn't be too bad, given that you have a handful of skill points and sneak attack doesn't care about stats to deal damage. You'll definitely want to stay out of melee combat, both due to low HP and low chances to hit. Your skills will be more impressive anyways, as the ability scores matter less to full-ranked skills at higher levels.

[Big Fau]

So, in a recent IRL game, I rolled the worst stats I ever have - 10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 9. Now, I have a super cool DM, so I'm sure I could get a re roll if I asked, but I think I want to play this out.

You are entitled to a reroll according to page 8 of the PHB.


Stats like that are reserved for NPCs without class levels. No one should play those stats in conjunction with characters who have stats around the Elite Array.

[Inferno]

though I'd normally hate to suggest it. venerable dragonwrought kobold could net you some passable mentals, and with rolls like yours might not cost you a dmg to the face.
could make for a solid druid or interesting wiz/sorc

[Philistine]

First: this is why a lot of people won't play games with random stat generation. Well... this, and the possibility of rolling an array like this in the same game as another player who comes up with an array of 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 10. That's why Point Buy Is Just Better.

Second: a -2 net modifier, with no score above 11, entitles you to a reroll under virtually all of the roll-based stat generation methods described in the PHB and DMG. This is highly recommended because...

Third: Core/SRD-Only, there's not going to be anything you can do well. Even a totally-Wild Shape-focused Druid needs enough Wisdom to actually cast spells (19 by level 17); starting with an 11 means there will be long stretches where you simply don't have the Ability score to cast the spells you ought to be able to for your level. Your best bets will likely be Rogue and Bard, as others have mentioned, and even those are no better than marginal.

[Veyr]

First: this is why a lot of people won't play games with random stat generation. Well... this, and the possibility of rolling an array like this in the same game as another player who comes up with an array of 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 10. That's why Point Buy Is Just Better.
This. I simply wouldn't have rolled the stats in the first place; I'd find another game.

[TheOOB]

I wouldn't play a caster with those stats. A rogue could work, they get lots of skill points out of the box, and their main combat ability(sneak attack) isn't attribute dependant

[Flickerdart]

Now that I think about it, Venerable would totally work. Go Dwarf or something, Venerable gives you a 14 or two, now you can be a passable Druid. Just watch out for that 6 Constitution! Likewise, a Fire Elf or Gray Elf Wizard could work - you'd top out at 16 Int, but will have absurdly low everything else (2 Constitution! try not to go outside too much).

You may want to consider taking a level adjusted race. Usually this is not recommended, but you could use the boosts. Pixies have pretty solid stats (their STR tanks, but remember that the minimum stat for racial adjustments is 1), and on the other side of the spectrum Ogres get a swingin' +10 to Strength.

[Grim Reader]

How was that build I made just for fun once...?

Half-elf, Human Heritage.

Half-elf Paragon 1/Wizard 1/Half-elf Paragon 2/Human Paragon 3/Elf Paragon 3/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 1.

At level 11, you've netted +2, int, +4 to any ability scores. You can gish from there although your BaB base will be poor. Or you can go Ultimate Magus, getting +9 advancement to Sublime Chord by setting it at Bard + SC. You'd get 9th level spells on the SC side and 7th, I think, on the prepared side.

You'd be reliant on stat items to cast them, though.

From SRD only...you're in a mess.

The easiest thing is probably the previously mentioned Wildshaping Ranger/MOMF.

[Talya]

I'm of the firm opinion that characters with no weaknesses are boring

So are characters with no strengths.
I believe that others have already said it, the best SRD option for this character, bar none.

Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger)

Just make sure your 11s are in wisdom and constitution, and find a way to boost constitution at every opportunity. Get wisdom up as high as 14 through gear, and nothing else matters past level 5.

(It wouldn't be a bad idea to take a race with a constitution bonus here, either. Gnome or dwarf is a good choice.)

[Girshtop]

A couple people already mentioned it, but if your highest roll is 13 or less, or the sum of your modifiers (before race adjustment) is 0 or less, you get a free re-roll - Page 8 of the PHB.



I'm of the firm opinion that characters with no weaknesses are boring, so I think it should be fun--if you can keep the character alive.

I'm totally for character weaknesses too, but you have to remember, you're playing D&D, where you're a HERO. Heroes are generally stronger, tougher, or smarter than the average joe living in some small village.

I mean, those stats would be fine for Larry the cobbler. But you're not the town shoemaker, are you?

EDIT: Sorry if I insulted any NPC's browsing the forums. I love you guys!

[Yora]

I'd play an expert and stay out of combat, maybe assist the party with throwing tanglefoot bags and smokesticks and such.

[Gnome Alone]

As someone who finds Point Buy incredibly, incredibly boring, I just wanna say I think it's awesome that you're gonna roll with it, these terrible, terrible stats. Trust to Fortune's Wheel, homie!

Mild sarcasm alert: Why not play a Commoner? You have the stats of one. You could embrace the weaknesses fully and get by on pure ingenuity and chutzpah.

[Eldariel]

If you want the best Core-character (non-SRD) for that, yeah, Druid. You could go up to Middle-Age and play an Aasimar (suck the LA up) for +2 Wis and just roll with Wildshape (you get 10 Con and that's about it). This would get you enough Wis to get 9s eventually and you still got your animal companion and wildshape even tho spell save DCs aren't amazing.

Hell, even just a Middle-Aged Human Druid could work out alright since Animal Companion is basically a character onto itself and you'd get level 3 spells on time (would take a while to get to the higher level spells, though, though stat boosters would help - level 17 you'd have to buy a +1 Tome to keep up with just Ioun Stone tho - or you could always cast Owl's Wisdom when you need to cast higher level spells).


Out of all Core, Druid is easily the best no-stat class though that's not saying much. Animal Companions are still good and Wildshape forms are still fine even tho you lack the HP. You could still also max out Diplomacy and maybe Cross-Class UMD and just abuse the stupid good skills while at it.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

A couple people already mentioned it, but if your highest roll is 13 or less, or the sum of your modifiers (before race adjustment) is 0 or less, you get a free re-roll - Page 8 of the PHB.

I'm totally for character weaknesses too, but you have to remember, you're playing D&D, where you're a HERO. Heroes are generally stronger, tougher, or smarter than the average joe living in some small village.

I mean, those stats would be fine for Larry the cobbler. But you're not the town shoemaker, are you?

EDIT: Sorry if I insulted any NPC's browsing the forums. I love you guys!


+1. You are entitled to a reroll. If you don't want to take it, then you don't have to, but, with only SRD content, your character will have a difficult life. You could discuss getting somekind of starting bonus from your DM considering your stats.

Weaknesses in characters are endearing, but I find character flaws are more fun than statistical weaknesses. If your character is terrified of bugs and continuously trying to romance the local wildlife that's more ammusing than being completely nerfed by your stats.

[Zombimode]

If you can talk your DM to let you play a +Wis race, a otherwise core druid will be fine.
You still can heal, you still can buff, you are STILL a bear who rides a bear and shoots bears out of his rear.

With a +Wis race you should never come into the situation where you cant acces a spell level because of insufficiant Wis score.
At first level you have 13 - enough.
At 4th you have 14 - enough
At 8th you have 15 - still enough.
And by then you should be able to accire a +Wis item that will carry you over level 11 and 12 where you get the next stat boost.
And so on.

[Douglas]

Play an anthropomorphic bat druid. With stats like that, it might actually not be cheesily overpowered.

[Solaris]

First: this is why a lot of people won't play games with random stat generation. Well... this, and the possibility of rolling an array like this in the same game as another player who comes up with an array of 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 10. That's why Point Buy Is Just Better.

Point buy is better for ensuring everyone has roughly the same stats to start off with. If you're of a mind that getting a wide range of stats and abilities is a good thing, then it's not better. If you don't at all find it entertaining to buy abilities, then it's definitely not better. I hate point buy on account of it's boring. There's no risk, no reward.
I've played a character who didn't have stats above 15 in AD&D (different ability bonuses, recall) in the same party as my brother's paladin with an 18/00 Strength, four more 18s, a 16, and a 15. That's only a little better than the situation OP's looking at right now. Didn't stop me from enjoying the game and having fun with that character.

[Metahuman1]

Personally, I'd pick up Bard, and max ranks in UMD and Tumble, then Max perform singing, and Bluff, Intimidate, and Diplomacy.

Do the talking out of combat. UMD will be most of where your attacks come form, plan accordingly, though most of the time you won't be attacking.

This is where we depart form Core. Get Inspire courage optimized, up too and including a way to ignore Sub-dual damage and taking Words of creation, on top of Dragonfire Inspiration AND Melodic Casting.

Take cure, Buff, and one or two utility spells, and spend most of your time using Melodic casting too Keep Bardic Music going while you cast boost or emergency heals on the rest of the party.

With +Cha Items, you wouldn't even need too actually drop points in Cha too keep getting access too your spell levels.

[Talya]

Point buy is better for ensuring everyone has roughly the same stats to start off with. If you're of a mind that getting a wide range of stats and abilities is a good thing, then it's not better.


Hey, just for good measure, ensure the lousy roll plays a monk, and the good roll plays a druid. Then you've REALLY got a wide range of competence.

[Girshtop]

I hate point buy on account of it's boring. There's no risk, no reward.

I completely agree. I've played a paladin with 18,18,16,15,14,14, and I've played other characters where my highest stat (before modifiers) was 15 and lowest was 7. I still had equally as much fun with both characters. It's how you roleplay them I think. Then again, I play for flavour and don't optimize, so I guess I'm biased towards RP and strategy in combat rather than cast [insert oddly worded wizard or druid spell] and profit.

[Trixie]

First: this is why a lot of people won't play games with random stat generation. Well... this, and the possibility of rolling an array like this in the same game as another player who comes up with an array of 18, 18, 17, 16, 14, 10. That's why Point Buy Is Just Better.

PB has a lot problems of its own, thank you.

As for OP question, go play a Monk. Wizard would also be good :smalltongue:

[Talya]

PB has a lot problems of its own, thank you.

As for OP question, go play a Monk. Wizard would also be good :smalltongue:

If you measure the equivalent point buy of each roll, and give them available class tiers based on what they rolled, it might balance out a bit...just a bit though. A monk with four 18's might be playable early on, but is still going to end up far inferior to the wizard with starting 15 int and 9s in everything else.

The big problem there happens in the case of a roll like the player in the OP has, where a full spellcasting class is going to end up almost impossible for him to pull off...almost. (11 int, +6 headband of intellect, and 5 stat increases to INT = 22 intelligence. He won't be the most powerful wizard ever to walk the earth, but in the end, he's still a wizard with level 9 spells.)

[Veyr]

I hate point buy on account of it's boring. There's no risk, no reward.
Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?

[Shpadoinkle]

Probably a support character would be the best choice for rolls like that.

Warlock (Complete Arcane) and rogue are both solid choices. Maybe take one or two levels of warlock then go with rogue levels for the rest- Eldtrich Blast lets you deliver your sneak attacks at range as a touch attack, and you can take the Eldtrich Glaive invocation (Dragon Magic) so you can flank and still use your touch attack. Most things have really poor touch AC, so your lack of stat bonuses to anything won't be as much of a hindrance as it could be.

If you take a second level of warlock you get another least invocation, which, if you're going for a sneaky kind of character, can be used on Spiderwalk (lets you cast Spider Climb on yourself at will) or something else that, even though it's a low level ability, will be useful for quite a while (there are least invocations that let you cast Fog Cloud or Darkness at will, both of which can be useful for covering an escape, planning ambushes, or laying traps.)

A level of Dragon Shaman (PHBII) gets you three auras, and while they're not terribly powerful they affect you and everyone within 30' of you. The Vigor aura is great, in my opinion, but I think anything that grants free healing is great, so maybe take this suggestion with a pinch of salt. The Resistance aura isn't bad either, but unless you take several levels in DS it won't go above 5. Senses isn't going to ever be terribly impressive either, but again, the bonus applies to everyone within 30' of you so it can give your allies a boost. The other auras aren't really noteworthy with only one level of DS.

[The Glyphstone]

Point buy is better for ensuring everyone has roughly the same stats to start off with. If you're of a mind that getting a wide range of stats and abilities is a good thing, then it's not better. If you don't at all find it entertaining to buy abilities, then it's definitely not better. I hate point buy on account of it's boring. There's no risk, no reward.
I've played a character who didn't have stats above 15 in AD&D (different ability bonuses, recall) in the same party as my brother's paladin with an 18/00 Strength, four more 18s, a 16, and a 15. That's only a little better than the situation OP's looking at right now. Didn't stop me from enjoying the game and having fun with that character.

Not to disrupt the discussion, but what was that paladin doing with 7 stats?

[Shpadoinkle]

Not to disrupt the discussion, but what was that paladin doing with 7 stats?

Comliness?

[Trixie]

If you measure the equivalent point buy of each roll, and give them available class tiers based on what they rolled, it might balance out a bit...just a bit though. A monk with four 18's might be playable early on, but is still going to end up far inferior to the wizard with starting 15 int and 9s in everything else.

It's one solution. Cumbersome, but still better than straight PB.


The big problem there happens in the case of a roll like the player in the OP has, where a full spellcasting class is going to end up almost impossible for him to pull off...almost. (11 int, +6 headband of intellect, and 5 stat increases to INT = 22 intelligence. He won't be the most powerful wizard ever to walk the earth, but in the end, he's still a wizard with level 9 spells.)

+2 from race (lesser Tiefling), +3 from age, +5 from tomes, 32 Int. You were saying? :smalltongue:

[Requiem_Jeer]

Clearly, they were playing with the BoEF and one of them was appearance.

On another note, try and talk your DM into letting you be a lesser Aaismar druid, a lesser Aaismar isn't an outsider, and doesn't have the spell-likes, but it loses the LA. Then, grab druid, become middle age, and that gives you a 14 wisdom to start. It's terrible and you'd need item support to cast 8th level or higher spells once you get there, but it's workable. Wildshape ranger on a con bonus race is another very valid option, just go master of many forms from complete adventurer if he'd allow it. If not, go old with a con bonus and use that 13 wisdom to it's fullest.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned that those stats are even worse then Joe Commoner. Joe Commoner has a 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11, and he's 3 points short of that.

[Talya]

+2 from race (lesser Tiefling), +3 from age, +5 from tomes, 32 Int. You were saying? :smalltongue:

Yeah, except then you're a wizard with a base constitution of between 3 and 5. :smallfrown:

[Eldariel]

Yeah, except then you're a wizard with a base constitution of between 3 and 5. :smallfrown:

Better take toughness as all your feats :smalltongue:

[Girshtop]

Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?

This is the "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" case. Sure you can want to play a character with specific stats, like 18 int, 18 con wizard, but sometimes that's just not in the cards. You make do with what you get. It gives ability distribution some variety. Who knows, it may even give you an opportunity to RP a little.

For example, I like to play druids (again, not an optimizer, just like the flavour). Druids dumpstat (when taking the shapeshift variant) is usually CHA, right? But one time I rolled a 6. Instead of dropping that into CHA, I put it into INT. Why? Flavour! It made for great fun that my character was so stupid compared to other humans, but very intelligent for an animal, so he stayed in animal form almost always, and communicated as Lassie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l457Eg33qJ4) would.

[Talya]

For example, I like to play druids (again, not an optimizer, just like the flavour). Druids dumpstat (when taking the shapeshift variant) is usually CHA, right? But one time I rolled a 6. Instead of dropping that into CHA, I put it into INT. Why? Flavour! It made for great fun that my character was so stupid compared to other humans, but very intelligent for an animal, so he stayed in animal form almost always, and communicated as Lassie (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l457Eg33qJ4) would.

As a side point, I find Rich Burlew's "Fey Druid" houserule to be superior to core druid for flavor. I much prefer basing druid spellcasting on charisma to start with...

[rainstorm]

well you got an 11 in wisdom.... 1st level druid or cleric maybe?

[Quietus]

Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?

Some people enjoy the variance, the fact that they're playing characters who didn't get to choose what they're capable of. That's part of why some people like to do 3d6 straight down the line, because it's a good way of breaking out of your mold. Sometimes it's nice to NOT expect that "Oh, you're playing a Wizard, so 18 int, 16 con, 14 dex right?", and instead see them roll nothing outside the range of 15-13, and see WHY this person is above average across the board, without being exceptionally high in any one area.


To the OP : A spontaneous caster might be worth considering here, too. Bard was brought up as a good option, but Sorcerer is also an interesting choice. You'd get second level spells at the same level you can boost your cha to 12 and be able to cast them, and by level 6, odds are good that you'll have a charisma-enhancing item to keep you on the curve.

[Zombimode]

Then, grab druid, become middle age, and that gives you a 14 wisdom to start. It's terrible and you'd need item support to cast 8th level or higher spells once you get there, but it's workable.

Yeah, its terrible because its less powerful then one of the most powerful classes even in core with twinked out stats :smallamused:

[Philistine]

Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?
So much this.


This is the "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" case. Sure you can want to play a character with specific stats, like 18 int, 18 con wizard, but sometimes that's just not in the cards. You make do with what you get. It gives ability distribution some variety. Who knows, it may even give you an opportunity to RP a little.


"I suck at everything" is fantastically boring to RP, though.

Also, LOLStormwindfallacy.

[PollyOliver]

Indeed. It's just as possible to role play an 18 INT wizard as a 10 INT wizard--it's just that one is capable of you know, using his class features, and the other isn't. Power and role playing are two completely independent things, and both can be done well at the same time.

The real difference between the two is that one is role playing the character you want to role play, and the other is to a certain extent being forced to role play the character arbitrary probability tells you to--which in my opinion is less fun. In fact, saying that it's fun to play with just rolls for stats is basically saying that you think it's fun for the players to start off the most basic foundation of the game on an unfair playing field. I don't think inherent unfairness is fun.

[Knaight]

You make do with what you get. It gives ability distribution some variety. Who knows, it may even give you an opportunity to RP a little.

Oh yes, its oh so difficult to role play a character when you can tailor their capabilities to fit the character you want to play.

[Morph Bark]

Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?

Why on earth should there be risks or rewards to making babies? :smalltongue:


Yeah, except then you're a wizard with a base constitution of between 3 and 5. :smallfrown:

Undeadification?

[Quietus]

Undeadification?

That's what I was thinking.. a necropolitan would fix that right up. I mean, your strength and dex would still suck, but at least you wouldn't have HP = level.

[Eldariel]

That's what I was thinking.. a necropolitan would fix that right up. I mean, your strength and dex would still suck, but at least you wouldn't have HP = level.

You can't go Necro due to the Core-part of this particular curveball, though. Closest would be Lich, which is quite hard to achieve.

[Girshtop]

"I suck at everything" is fantastically boring to RP, though.


That's why Re-rolling is an option, so you don't suck at everything..


Indeed. It's just as possible to role play an 18 INT wizard as a 10 INT wizard--it's just that one is capable of you know, using his class features, and the other isn't. Power and role playing are two completely independent things, and both can be done well at the same time.

Re-rolling rules state your highest stat has to be 14 or higher, or else you re-roll. The whole reason this is in place is so you DON'T have a wizard with 10 INT (or if you do have one, you made your character like that on purpose). You can't compare an 18 to a 10, but you can an 18 to a 14 - Read through the thread, and you'll see how many people say a 14 is workable. Sure the 18 is better, but think about it in terms of realism. No offense at all, but I'm sure you, or anyone else reading this post is not the smartest person in the world. Even some rocket scientists (or any profession where intelligence is important) can't compare to the genius' in their field.

In my games, I don't HAVE to be the best at what I do. Sure, it feels great, but there's always a bigger fish.


The real difference between the two is that one is role playing the character you want to role play, and the other is to a certain extent being forced to role play the character arbitrary probability tells you to--which in my opinion is less fun. In fact, saying that it's fun to play with just rolls for stats is basically saying that you think it's fun for the players to start off the most basic foundation of the game on an unfair playing field. I don't think inherent unfairness is fun.

Again, I don't mean to offend, but it seems like your saying "How can I have fun if my character isn't the best, just like I imagined?"

By that logic, why play a class that has more than 2 stats (INT and CON)? Paladin's have to get at least decent ability scores across the board, and even then, they don't compare to a 18 INT, 18 CON, 10 (or less) every other score. How is that not inherent unfairness?

[Morph Bark]

You can't go Necro due to the Core-part of this particular curveball, though. Closest would be Lich, which is quite hard to achieve.

Animate Dead + Awaken?

[The Glyphstone]

Animate Dead + Awaken?

Awaken Undead isn't core either.

[Knaight]

Again, I don't mean to offend, but it seems like your saying "How can I have fun if my character isn't the best, just like I imagined?"

There is a huge difference between the best and capable of what they should be capable of. Moreover, there is huge variance in the second between characters. If I'm playing a young squire and another character is playing an older knight then I will want to keep things gained from experience - Skill at arms, knowledge of the world, wisdom in general, so on and so forth - relatively low, and certainly lower than the knight. Similarly, the player playing the knight will probably try to keep things gained from youth -sheer physical speed and strength, idealism, so on and so forth- low, and certainly lower than the squire, unless secondary traits (say that the knight, despite being aged, is still a good 2 meters tall and the squire is rather short) would override that.

[Kenneth]

[QUOTE=Squeejee;11342551]So, in a recent IRL game, I rolled the worst stats I ever have - 10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 9. QUOTE]

Though there is a tiny chance that this is a random house rule. I am pretty sure teh official ruling is if you have a charcater that has less than a +3 over all ability modifier( by that i mean all 6 of your stats come out to +2 or lower, which your -2 indeed does). You are allowed to create a whole new set of statistics.

failing that you could just be a druid, and just stay in wild shape all day long. That is honestly the only thing I can think of that is going to work with your stats in core only.

[Trixie]

Yeah, except then you're a wizard with a base constitution of between 3 and 5. :smallfrown:

And? :smalltongue:

Honey, when you have d4 hit die, difference between Con 3 and Con 8 is largely academic. Wizards best defense is, as always, not being hit, not HPs.

[Shpadoinkle]

I don't know whether to find it amusing or incredibly annoying that people read the first line ("So, in a recent IRL game, I rolled the worst stats I ever have - 10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 9.") but not the second ("Now, I have a super cool DM, so I'm sure I could get a re roll if I asked, but I think I want to play this out.")

I'm leaning towards annoying.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-

The OP is specifically not taking the reroll permitted by the rules and/or DM.


Are you playing a character, or playing who-can-roll-the-highest-dice? Why on earth should their be risks or rewards to character creation?

I had a lot of fun rolling up characters for the original Traveller.

This is a system where your character can die in character creation. You sure you want to go on another Navy duty tour?[hr]Different things for different people. I like the variance provided in rolling characters, with some mitigation to make sure nobody ends up with a horrible character. 4d6v1r1 usually comes out rather well, even if the average is a tad high. Sometimes the point buy method makes fun characters (because you can tailor-make the character - though with that argument, why not just choose the stats? You get about the same effect and don't have to worry about 8-minimums or silly points maximums restricting you). Other times it's fun to roll stats and see what you get.

Hm... actually, "just choosing" stats sounds like a pretty good idea...

[Girshtop]

There is a huge difference between the best and capable of what they should be capable of.

I'm not really sure what you mean.. A wizard starting with 14 INT isn't capable of what they should be capable of?

By the time he gets his 5th level spells, he can easily have 15 INT, and so on up to 9th level spells.

How is that not being capable of what he should be?

[Knaight]

I'm not really sure what you mean.. A wizard starting with 14 INT isn't capable of what they should be capable of?

By the time he gets his 5th level spells, he can easily have 15 INT, and so on up to 9th level spells.

How is that not being capable of what he should be?

It depends on the concept of the wizard. If the concept is a bumbling apprentice, then a wizard with 14 int is probably better than they should be. If the concept is a studious mage forced into exile, 14 int is probably plenty. If the concept is a wise and crafty sage seeking the secrets of magic 14 int is probably too low.

[Shpadoinkle]

If the concept is a wise and crafty sage seeking the secrets of magic 14 int is probably too low.

Because everybody knows that people who are only moderately above average never have any desire to become exceptional.

[Knaight]

Because everybody knows that people who are only moderately above average never have any desire to become exceptional.

These people don't fit character concepts built upon the archetype of wise and crafty sages. The bumbling apprentice archetype, the ambitious mage looking for glory through discovery, the seemingly normal civilian who discovers their magical capacity, all these would fit the character who is just a bit smarter than most.

[Hecuba]

"I suck at everything" is fantastically boring to RP, though.

This character doesn't suck at everything though. They're actually safely within 1 sigma for all stats. They're just not exceptional. And that can be fine-- there's something to be said for the everyman hero.

Moreover, role-playing is ultimately an exercise in fiction. Rolling for stats isn't that much different than the exercises fiction writing classes do where they draw story elements out of a hat.

That said, role-playing games are still games-- if your party averages out much higher than Tier 3, you should reroll.

[Philistine]

Wildshape ranger would do alright since you would get high physical stats from your wildshape ability so you would do just fine once you hit level 5 then prestige into MoMF and possible Warshaper

Edit: Swordsage'd
Getting to level 5 might be a problem, with below-average HP, and AC, and saves. The character basically has to pray he's never ever attacked, because a single confirmed crit with, say, a bow, or a spear, or an axe, can end his career at any point up to level 5, and any hostile spell that targets him (or even includes him in the effect) is more than likely going to succeed.


I completely agree. I've played a paladin with 18,18,16,15,14,14, and I've played other characters where my highest stat (before modifiers) was 15 and lowest was 7. I still had equally as much fun with both characters. It's how you roleplay them I think. Then again, I play for flavour and don't optimize, so I guess I'm biased towards RP and strategy in combat rather than cast and profit.
And if the OP actually had rolled even one 15, this would be a very different discussion. He didn't. His best score is an 11. This character will suck at everything.


I don't know whether to find it amusing or incredibly annoying that people read the first line ("So, in a recent IRL game, I rolled the worst stats I ever have - 10, 10, 11, 9, 11, 9.") but not the second ("Now, I have a super cool DM, so I'm sure I could get a re roll if I asked, but I think I want to play this out.")

I'm leaning towards annoying.
I don't know whether to find your sneering condescension amusing or incredibly annoying, given that you've clearly missed the posts encouraging the OP to re-roll with the supporting statement "you can play this out, but it's going to suck to be you."

I'm leaning towards annoying.


Why on earth should there be risks or rewards to [i]making babies?
Nice non-sequitir. Nobody asked "how is babby formed?"


I'm not really sure what you mean.. A wizard starting with 14 INT isn't capable of what they should be capable of?

By the time he gets his 5th level spells, he can easily have 15 INT, and so on up to 9th level spells.

How is that not being capable of what he should be?
Again, the character in question in this thread has 11s for his highest stat rolls. Such a character really won't be as capable as he ought to be, and in fact, unless he wants to be a PC Damsel, he's better off staying home (and his adventuring friends, if they are friends, will leave him behind at their earliest opportunity, for his own good).

But even a Wizard with 14 Int will see his spells fail rather more often than one with an 18, even when attacking weak saves; in that respect at least he's not able to do his job as well as he ought.

EDIT:
This character doesn't suck at everything though. They're actually safely within 1 sigma for all stats. They're just not exceptional. And that can be fine-- there's something to be said for the everyman hero.

Moreover, role-playing is ultimately an exercise in fiction. Rolling for stats isn't that much different than the exercises fiction writing classes do where they draw story elements out of a hat.

That said, role-playing games are still games-- if your party averages out much higher than Tier 3, you should reroll.
In the context of an adventuring party, yes, he absolutely will suck at everything. This character has no strengths, no way to contribute in any situation that actually challenges the party.

In fact, the OP's desire to "RP this out" is incredibly selfish, because it means the DM will have to softball the entire campaign for his one character if he's to have any hope of relevance - or even survival.

[Girshtop]

These people don't fit character concepts built upon the archetype of wise and crafty sages.

Of course they do, that's why stat increases every 4 levels exist; so smart people can become smarter. You're example of a "bumbling apprentice" can still become a wise and crafty sage, he just has to work to get there.

[Knaight]

Of course they do, that's why stat increases every 4 levels exist; so smart people can become smarter. You're example of a "bumbling apprentice" can still become a wise and crafty sage, he just has to work to get there.

The examples were clearly of the characters at their beginning. Sure, the bumbling apprentice can eventually become a wise and crafty sage, just as the wise and crafty sage can become a broken, traumatized mage wrestling with insanity. That doesn't mean that the initial stats work for the character you initially want to play at all.

[Othniel Edden]

Nice non-sequitir. Nobody asked "how is babby formed?"
Please tell me this is sarcasm given how dangerous character creation is in rl.:smalleek:

[Girshtop]

But even a Wizard with 14 Int will see his spells fail rather more often than one with an 18, even when attacking weak saves; in that respect at least he's not able to do his job as well as he ought.

By that logic, everyone should just play the most optimized characters they can find. And why bother with saves? I'm sure there are ways to get around saves. Just use those and then you'll surely have more fun, right? Right?



EDIT:
In the context of an adventuring party, yes, he absolutely will suck at everything. This character has no strengths, no way to contribute in any situation that actually challenges the party.

In fact, the OP's desire to "RP this out" is incredibly selfish, because it means the DM will have to softball the entire campaign for his one character if he's to have any hope of relevance - or even survival.


He's not asking to play a character with 3's in every ability. 10's and 11's just mean that he won't be carrying the team to a victory, but that doesn't mean he can't contribute..

You heard it here first gang, if you want to play a character that's not completely optimized, don't bother; you're being selfish.

[PollyOliver]

That's why Re-rolling is an option, so you don't suck at everything..

Re-rolling rules state your highest stat has to be 14 or higher, or else you re-roll. The whole reason this is in place is so you DON'T have a wizard with 10 INT (or if you do have one, you made your character like that on purpose). You can't compare an 18 to a 10, but you can an 18 to a 14 - Read through the thread, and you'll see how many people say a 14 is workable. Sure the 18 is better, but think about it in terms of realism. No offense at all, but I'm sure you, or anyone else reading this post is not the smartest person in the world. Even some rocket scientists (or any profession where intelligence is important) can't compare to the genius' in their field.

In my games, I don't HAVE to be the best at what I do. Sure, it feels great, but there's always a bigger fish.

No offense taken; there are whole multitudes of people smarter than I am. :smallsmile:

The reference to the 10 INT was to the people saying that they didn't need the re-roll because they wanted to do some fun role playing; I'm aware you can get a re-roll for that. And I never said an 18 was better for role playing, just that you could role play an 18 INT just as well as you could role play a 10 INT (though obviously in a different way). I didn't say I had to be the best at x, just that being better at x does not mean that you have to be worse at role playing; they are two entirely different axes.




Again, I don't mean to offend, but it seems like your saying "How can I have fun if my character isn't the best, just like I imagined?"

By that logic, why play a class that has more than 2 stats (INT and CON)? Paladin's have to get at least decent ability scores across the board, and even then, they don't compare to a 18 INT, 18 CON, 10 (or less) every other score. How is that not inherent unfairness?

Again, I'm not saying I can't have fun if my character's not the best; I have no idea where you're getting that. I'm saying that it is more fun for me if I can make my character to a certain extent like what I imagine, which is not "the best", but rather simply customizable to a certain degree. This might be a situation where preference comes in a lot, but I never said my character had to be "the best" or "just like I imagined", just that one method allows you a better chance to make your character more like what you imagine (which could be dumb as a rock, if that's what you want) and one shoehorns you into role playing to a certain extent what your rolls tell you to.

Again, I'm not saying you have to have 18's in everything; that's completely contrary to how most reasonable point buys work anyway. I'm saying that I think it's less fun for the group to start out on a totally uneven playing field, and that's what frequently happens when you straight up roll stats without a backup (such as a low-moderate fallback point buy). Obviously there are other things unfair about the game--class MAD and versatility for one. One unfairness does not make another unrelated unfairness more fair, (though class unevenness is in my opinion slightly less unfair, because at least you choose your class) and my RL group tends to use class fixes for tiers 4 and lower anyway.

I really don't understand where you're getting this; my points were 1) you do not have to be low power to role play well, 2) point buy allows you more freedom to role play what you want to role play in terms of mental stats, which I admit might be a preference thing, and 3) I think it's more fair for the players to start on a more even foundation at the very beginning of character generation, which a point buy gives.

[myancey]

In fact, the OP's desire to "RP this out" is incredibly selfish, because it means the DM will have to softball the entire campaign for his one character if he's to have any hope of relevance - or even survival.

I think calling the OP selfish is out-of-line. The DM doesn't have to softball anything. If the OP wants to play the character, he should have the right to. The DM should just be happy he doesn't have a hardcore optimizer in the group-but instead has a player man enough to take what he rolled. And you can still find a niche for low-stat characters.



You heard it here first gang, if you want to play a character that's not completely optimized, don't bother; you're being selfish.

I know, right? I love the logic behind that.

[PollyOliver]

I think calling the OP selfish is out-of-line. The DM doesn't have to softball anything. If the OP wants to play the character, he should have the right to. The DM should just be happy he doesn't have a hardcore optimizer in the group-but instead has a player man enough to take what he rolled. And you can still find a niche for low-stat characters.

Yeah, I think the OP should be allowed to take the stats if he wants them. I think calling him selfish is extreme. However, I do disagree that there's anything more RP-able about these stats than, say, an elite array. But if the concept you're going for is "totally average guy doing the best he can" or something like that, sure, they work well.

[Zombimode]

In the context of an adventuring party, yes, he absolutely will suck at everything. This character has no strengths, no way to contribute in any situation that actually challenges the party.

In fact, the OP's desire to "RP this out" is incredibly selfish, because it means the DM will have to softball the entire campaign for his one character if he's to have any hope of relevance - or even survival.

Im repeating myself here but im pretty certain that a character with stats like in the OP and a race with +2 to wisdom (like lesser Aasimar) going for straight druid will STILL be at least a solid tier 3 character.

You guys are seriously overreacting.

[Talya]

Im repeating myself here but im pretty certain that a character with this stats a race with +2 to wisdom (like lesser Aasimar) going for straight druid will STILL be at least a solid tier 3 character.




Tier 1. As long as he can keep his casting-ability high enough to always be able to cast his current level of spells, any tier 1 class will remain tier 1 with those stats. Whether it's a lesser-tiefling wizard, or a lesser aasimar druid/cleric, he is still a solid tier 1 with those ability scores. He won't be as powerful as someone with a nicer array, but he'll still be far more powerful in the end than the fighter who miraculously rolled 18,18,17,16,14,12.

[Terazul]

By that logic, everyone should just play the most optimized characters they can find. And why bother with saves? I'm sure there are ways to get around saves. Just use those and then you'll surely have more fun, right? Right?


Nobody's saying you have to play a "win at everything forever" character. But it certainly helps when you don't have to struggle or jump through just to get "mildly competent at my role about 60% of the time". I personally don't really get the appeal with going along with stats that the system itself tells you are too low, other than making the game deliberately harder for yourself. ...Which in turn is harder on the party. Which could ruin someone else's fun, if everything comes down to preventing said character from getting gibbed all the time.

So honestly, I think this is a case where the OP should discuss with the rest of the party what option they want to take for getting around this hurdle, and whether that's something they want to deal with. If so, then all's cool! Roll with it. Though I really don't see the point of putting the hurdle there in the first place.

But yeah, Druid could work. If you get to level 5.

[PollyOliver]

But yeah, Druid could work. If you get to level 5.

If you want druid, you'll be fine even before level 5. Your HP will be a little low, but you're still a druid. If you can, consider playing a lesser aasimar or something. At level 5, with a base 11 WIS, +2 from aasimar, and +1 from leveling, and say a +2 item, you should have a 16 WIS easily (or 14 in wild shape). If you want to be really tricksy, drop dragonborn on top of anything with a WIS bonus to get a CON bonus as well. The hit to DEX doesn't really hurt you, and the CHA bonus from aasimar plus ranks will give you a decent shot at handle animal-ing your companion. At low levels, stand back, summon, tell your animal to attack, and buff. Save-and-still-suck spells like entangle will still be useful, even if you've only got 11 or 13 WIS. Once you have enough money to use stat-boosting items (or the spell slot for owl's insight) you'll be a normal druid with slightly lower save DCs. So just don't use spells that are negated by saves, and you'll be okay.

[Eldariel]

But yeah, Druid could work. If you get to level 5.

Core Druid from levels 1 to 5 has Animal Companion that largely has the same competency as a Fighter and depending on the Fighter's effective point buy and build, can even perform better than the Fighter does in combat (and has out-of-combat capabilities such as spot/listen/tracking that compare quite well to Fighter's), without help from the Druid. Druid spells help but the animal companion is more than sufficient with Druid skills on those levels.

[Hunter Killer]

I'd say place your stats like so: STR 9, DEX 9, CON 11, INT 10, WIS 11, CHA 10.

Then be a Old Dwarf. This would make your stats: STR 6, DEX 6, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 13, CHA 10.

Be a Druid and place all of you stat increases in WIS. That'll give you 18 base by 20th, and it shouldn't be too hard to get at least one item that gives you +1 WIS.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You heard it here first gang, if you want to play a character that's not completely optimized, don't bother; you're being selfish.You heard it here first gang, any character with a re-rolled stat line is completely optimized.

[Siosilvar]

You heard it here first gang, any character with a re-rolled stat line is completely optimized.

You heard it here first gang, stop having fun guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys).

Sorry for the TVTropes link.[hr]That is to say, does it really matter whether or not we roll stats? We're still playing the same game (mostly). The OP rolled stats and now wants to play with those, despite the opportunity to re-roll.

[Morph Bark]

Awaken Undead isn't core either.

Drat. Okay. How about simply turning into a Core undead, and playing one of those? That... well that could work, but likely will be a no-go on the DM's end.

Alternatively, ask if you could have a curse placed on you that makes you age in the opposite direction, being born as an old man. You start as an adult, aged 70, on his way to becoming a baby. +6 Str/Dex/Con, -3 Int/Wis/Cha. :smallwink:

More seriously... well since it is Core only, it won't help, but the Binder is also pretty NAD. I actually once had a thread discussing what class would work best for someone with Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 3, Wis 1, Cha 1. Binder, Druid, Warlock and Dragonfire Adept were named tons.


Nice non-sequitir. Nobody asked "how is babby formed?"

I was actually aiming to make a comparison to real life, cast in a humourous form with the intent of making the idea that random roll character generation is ultimately inferior to point buy look silly.

Random roll character generation, under normal rules, is worse if you want to get 18s, but better if you want to have overall better scores (as in, comparatively higher point buy value than commonly used). That is seperate from the fact that the OP does not want to re-roll, despite it being allowed by the standard rules.

Just take care not to sound condescending when calling others doing so, please. :smallsmile:

[NecroRick]

Embrace the suck. Bend it to your will, make it your own.

Sounds like a perfect time to play a Samurai or Truenamer :0

If you're in Eberron play a gobbo (or some other race used as cheap/slave labour by the human empires) and when the other players order you about say "yeth marthter" and scurry to do their bidding.

Alternatively, since you're so average, play a commoner, but not one of those boring railgun or chicken infested ones. Come up with a hook.

Or, in the reverse of the above suggestion, play an aristocrat and order the other players around. Or they can be part of your retinue. There's bound to be some skill monkey abusing diplomacy in the party, appoint him as your ambassador or herald. During combats stand at the back and yell out encouragment to "your minions". Use/abuse the economic system via professions and hire a bunch of people to make crap and then sell it while you're adventuring (double your money each week!). Then employ a Magewright to make items for the party. When they return use your rules-abused wealth to 'lavish' them with 'boons' from 'their liege' (e.g. a minor magic item or two, but only for the ones who bought into the concept (or at least paid lip-service to you being nobility). Hire the party to 'find'/kidnap you a suitable bride (not necessarily human). Go stake your claim in the wilderness. Clear out the monsters. Build a fortification (yes, a keep... on the borderlands). Become insulted by a neighbouring lord. Declare war on him. Take the party on a diplomatic mission to enlist the aid of the humanoid tribes they just spent the last 3 months trying to wipe out - to fight the neighbouring lord... :D

You could just about drive a whole campaign. (This works really well if the DM has mentioned that he's a bit tired of coming up with new adventures for you)

The trick to being a stuck up snooty noble is to throw humour in there. Otherwise the party will just hate you. Do things like taking charge of treasure, and then _distributing it fairly_. Or at least pretending to do so. There's a boardgame called Junta which is good training for this. Find out what the DM thinks of the wealth by level rules. If he likes them, chronically abuse the economics, but then do things to blow it - that make it all equal out (e.g. make a million, and then spend it on a festival in your own honour) and stick to the WBL religiously. If you want to jazz it up a little, make sure people have potions and scrolls of cool stuff. Most DMs let the expendables fly under the radar. If you know the DM thinks Monks are underpowered and you have a Monk, make sure it is the Monk who gets a wand of wraithstrike. If you want to give out something powerful and balance altering, run it past the DM first and see what he thinks. If he's a bit more laisez faire about WBL then you can be a bit looser too. Let the DM know that you are working _with_ him, not _against_ him. Work with the other players, discuss what magic items they would like next. When you hold a tournament, make sure there are multiple events tailored to your party's strengths so everyone gets the spotlight shined on them in a different way. Make it your job to make sure everyone in the party is having fun. If you have a thief in the party, send him as an envoy to the local thieves guild, have him work out a protection racket thing so they know that if they work with you it's a win-win for everyone. (etc)

[Lonely Tylenol]

In a Pathfinder campaign I started at the top of the year, one of the party members had three negative modifiers (7, 9, 9) and 12 as his highest stat. He elected to play as a blind, lecherous Oracle, and roleplayed all his trifecta of character flaws (weakness for women, 30-foot range of vision, and universally weak attributes) quite well. Was tons of fun.

There is no Pathfinder Oracle in 3.5, but my suggestion remains to play a healer/buffer. You fill a niche that isn't really attribute-dependent (since few of your spells will be save-based, you only need a high enough attribute score to cast spells) and is still essential to the party from 1-20 (moreso the buffing than the healing, but still).

[Titanium Fox]

Embrace the suck. Bend it to your will, make it your own.

Sounds like a perfect time to play a Samurai or Truenamer :0

If you're in Eberron play a gobbo (or some other race used as cheap/slave labour by the human empires) and when the other players order you about say "yeth marthter" and scurry to do their bidding.

Alternatively, since you're so average, play a commoner, but not one of those boring railgun or chicken infested ones. Come up with a hook.

Or, in the reverse of the above suggestion, play an aristocrat and order the other players around. Or they can be part of your retinue. There's bound to be some skill monkey abusing diplomacy in the party, appoint him as your ambassador or herald. During combats stand at the back and yell out encouragment to "your minions". Use/abuse the economic system via professions and hire a bunch of people to make crap and then sell it while you're adventuring (double your money each week!). Then employ a Magewright to make items for the party. When they return use your rules-abused wealth to 'lavish' them with 'boons' from 'their liege' (e.g. a minor magic item or two, but only for the ones who bought into the concept (or at least paid lip-service to you being nobility). Hire the party to 'find'/kidnap you a suitable bride (not necessarily human). Go stake your claim in the wilderness. Clear out the monsters. Build a fortification (yes, a keep... on the borderlands). Become insulted by a neighbouring lord. Declare war on him. Take the party on a diplomatic mission to enlist the aid of the humanoid tribes they just spent the last 3 months trying to wipe out - to fight the neighbouring lord... :D

You could just about drive a whole campaign. (This works really well if the DM has mentioned that he's a bit tired of coming up with new adventures for you)

The trick to being a stuck up snooty noble is to throw humour in there. Otherwise the party will just hate you. Do things like taking charge of treasure, and then _distributing it fairly_. Or at least pretending to do so. There's a boardgame called Junta which is good training for this. Find out what the DM thinks of the wealth by level rules. If he likes them, chronically abuse the economics, but then do things to blow it - that make it all equal out (e.g. make a million, and then spend it on a festival in your own honour) and stick to the WBL religiously. If you want to jazz it up a little, make sure people have potions and scrolls of cool stuff. Most DMs let the expendables fly under the radar. If you know the DM thinks Monks are underpowered and you have a Monk, make sure it is the Monk who gets a wand of wraithstrike. If you want to give out something powerful and balance altering, run it past the DM first and see what he thinks. If he's a bit more laisez faire about WBL then you can be a bit looser too. Let the DM know that you are working _with_ him, not _against_ him. Work with the other players, discuss what magic items they would like next. When you hold a tournament, make sure there are multiple events tailored to your party's strengths so everyone gets the spotlight shined on them in a different way. Make it your job to make sure everyone in the party is having fun. If you have a thief in the party, send him as an envoy to the local thieves guild, have him work out a protection racket thing so they know that if they work with you it's a win-win for everyone. (etc)

This is incredible. I might play this down the road the next time I roll absolute garbage.

[Coidzor]

well, there's always chicken-infested commoner. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103915)

Or, hell, most of Bubs (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) will work with the critters in the SRD without the extra boosts Bubs gets.

[NecroRick]

This is incredible. I might play this down the road the next time I roll absolute garbage.

I'd love to give proper credit and attribution to this idea, I just embellished it a bit. The thing about doubling your wealth every week especially. The funny thing is (as the original thread on this pointed out) that as an aristocrat it is _your job_ to have people working for you and making you money, it's what you do!

[begooler]

OP: "Hey guys, how would you make a 'No Attribute Dependency' character?

Responses:
1) Druid, maybe bard, warlock, wildshape ranger, druid, druid...
2) You can do XYZ and increase your ability scores...
3) Let me tell you why Point Buy is superior.
4) How is babby formed?
5) NecroRick: Please accept my awesome character concept.

NecroRick wins this thread.

[Big Fau]

By that logic, everyone should just play the most optimized characters they can find. And why bother with saves? I'm sure there are ways to get around saves. Just use those and then you'll surely have more fun, right? Right?

No, but when keeping your character alive is causing a liability to the party you really should change something about your character.

In the OP's case, the character he creates will be a huge liability on the party no matter what class or level he is. There simply is no concept that those stats can enable, as every class he picks will still have huge weaknesses regardless of what Tier that class is.

Actively optimizing to the extreme in either direction is a bad idea. Moderation is recommended for a reason. Under no IRL circumstances should you willingly hinder your party.

[Anxe]

I'd play a rogue. You'd still have a bunch of skill ranks. Then again I always play a rogue.

[BenInHB]

Druid

At lower levels hide behind your animal companion (i suggest Riding Dog if SRD only)

Even just 1st level spells will add a lot of survivability until you get stat boosts from items and level ups

After 5th level Wildshape will let you start to get into the mix yourself

[Girshtop]

No, but when keeping your character alive is causing a liability to the party you really should change something about your character.

In the OP's case, the character he creates will be a huge liability on the party no matter what class or level he is. There simply is no concept that those stats can enable, as every class he picks will still have huge weaknesses regardless of what Tier that class is.

Actively optimizing to the extreme in either direction is a bad idea. Moderation is recommended for a reason. Under no IRL circumstances should you willingly hinder your party.

He has every right to keep his low scores, much like you have every right to make the most optimized character in the game. I could even argue that playing an optimized character is more of a liability, to both the game and the general fun of the D&D. By playing a super optimized character you're making the DM throw more dangerous encounters at your party, while more often than not stealing the limelight from other players. Yes its true, as a sub-par character other PCs might have to pick up your slack, but that's not necessarily always going to be the case. Out of combat encounters are often equally important in D&D as combat. In terms of combat, as a druid or wizard or bard he can still buff or heal his team, without putting himself into greater risk than any other player in the fight.

I don't know where everyone is getting this idea that he's going to be the damsel that cries in the corner every time combat starts. He can buff, heal, debuff (albeit not that effectively), even shoot arrows from a safe distance. Has anyone considered tanglefoot bags, caltrops, and thunderstones? Those items don't need high rolls, and they can really make a difference in an encounter, especially at low levels before you get abilities that really help such as Wild Shape.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as everyone else is ok with it, let him do it, and I'll guarantee he'll outshine most of the expectations of this thread.

[Xanmyral]

My suggestion? Become the Arthur Dent. Pick expert, choose UMD and a few other useful skills. Be the absolutely normal guy who follows around the weirdies. Everyone normal freaks when the wizard summons a Baalor, you simply wonder if you should scratch that itch that has been bothering you. Act as a mascot/pack mule/normal guy who other normal people can relate to. Not every commoner can relate to the super genius wizard, the hulking warrior, or the guy who can talk the skin off of an orange. Throw in sarcasm and witticism when you can, avoid combat if you can by helping with wands, scrolls, and possibly a crossbow or something. Throw in some general savvy-ness that you can apply to what's going on. Nothing like actual meta-knowledge, but stuff that someone who reads stories a lot might know. Like, say, after finding a strange creature burn it. Actively make sure the bad guy is dead or something. Think of round-about ways to deal with something. Dungeon full of dangerous monsters? Smoke them out/flood them out. Since you have poor stats, you have to think of ways to deal with things that isn't "I swing my sword/put on my wizard hat and robes/both."

I have one more idea, which I will admit is only really different in RP instead of actual crunch wise, so still an expert abusing UMD.

Pretend that your character is from the future, maybe he actually is or maybe he's just crazy. This idea probably won't go over as well as the others, but options are better then no options.

Information as to what an Arthur Dent is.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheArthurDent

[ffone]

If you really want to stay SRD-only, personally, I'd play a Rogue. Sure, 8 skill points (9 if human) isn't really enough, but it's a start, and max ranks in a skill is more important than having an 18 in the relevant stat. Just pick your skillset and stick with it. For combat, hide in the back and make touch attacks with flasks of acid or alchemist's fire (a little costly compared to arrows or daggers, but the fact that you'd actually hit, since it's a touch attack? Yeah, worth it) or whatever.

This is really good advice. Touch attacks tend to be pretty easy to make so using alchemical items (they'll add sneak attack damage) is a good way to go, even with low Dex. The Warlock was also a good suggestion for this same reason, if you can get CA allowed.

Definitely a challenging stat array..as the OP points out, even the usual answer to bad stats (druid with Natural Spell) won't work, since you don't have anything high enough to be a casting stat.

[Coidzor]

^: Nets and Lassos are also good weapons for someone to use that doesn't really have the ability scores to hit things with from low levels. ...Though in a Core-only environment, that leaves only Nets.


He has every right to keep his low scores, much like you have every right to make the most optimized character in the game.

What DMs do you know and where did they come from?


Definitely a challenging stat array..as the OP points out, even the usual answer to bad stats (druid with Natural Spell) won't work, since you don't have anything high enough to be a casting stat.

It does, however, give a free fighter with decent stats. And provide a mechanic by which to get more free fighters.

[Girshtop]

What DMs do you know and where did they come from?


By far my favourite DM is my older brother; he is fantastically creative (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169149) and can think of amazing plot in seconds flat. Don't know how many times we've killed his evil boss, or escaped when we shouldn't have, and he's just made it seem like it was part of the plan.

He is much more creative than me, especially in character creation, and he's told our party many times that if we're going to optimize, we'd better expect that our enemies will be even stronger than us.

I don't optimize at all, I'm just saying, you can if you want; just be prepared for the repercussions.

[Zombimode]

Definitely a challenging stat array..as the OP points out, even the usual answer to bad stats (druid with Natural Spell) won't work, since you don't have anything high enough to be a casting stat.

Im really start to feel like a broken record here.
Seriously, what is so hard to understand about it? The requirement of a casting stat is 10+spell level. To which spell level does a 1st level druid has access? Exactly.
And remember, the stat array in the OP is unmodified. With a race like lesser Aasimar you always will have access to all spell levels you can cast as long you get a +1 Wis item at level 11 and a +2 Wis item at level 15.

Even in strictly core-only you can get to Wis 13 at first level. I think someone already posted the old dwarf.

Your animal companion still kicks ass, and you are still a full caster with a decent spell list.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You heard it here first gang, stop having fun guys (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys).

Sorry for the TVTropes link.<hr>That is to say, does it really matter whether or not we roll stats? We're still playing the same game (mostly). The OP rolled stats and now wants to play with those, despite the opportunity to re-roll.I was just pointing out the leap in logic, and the unnecessary bashing of optimization. I actually agree that the statline can work, but that requires either DM-aided roleplay solutions, like NecroRick's example, or, ironically, optimization.

To put it differently, if I use that statline to make a noble who has ties to the party and essentially acts as a quasi-artificer, then I'm useful and have a reason to adventure with the party (monitoring my workforce). If I use that statline to make a druid who can cast level-appropriate spells, I'm contributing significantly to group problem solving (combat, social, puzzles, info-gathering, et cetera) just like any other adventurer in spite of my impediment. If, on the other hand, I just make a random wizard who can't cast spells, I'm being selfish. The party has to strain disbelief just to team up with me, and they have to waste resources keeping me alive while I contribute next to nothing.

[Squeejee]

Just as a note, if this were a game with people I've never played with before, or a game with a GM who I know likes to challenge the party, or a game with a party who were all proficient optimizers, I would definitely take a re-roll. Such as it is, this is for a game with an easygoing DM and a party who enjoys role-playing working part-time in an armorsmith's shop while avoiding tough combat by romancing the Drider-with-class-levels instead of fighting her (Hey! That one was me!). I see where some of the negative sentiment towards my thought to play this character comes from, but you should know it isn't at all relevant in this case.

Thanks for all the ideas - NecroRick's post was made of win, so I think I'm going to do that. I've played a character like that in D20 modern before (Captain Moneybags, a Russian Royal dabbling in business with his inheritance and hands-on management style), and loved every second of it - I'm surprised I didn't think of it, actually. I think I'll do it with rogue / warlock levels though, so I can do something in combat while shouting "encouragement" (plus it lets me craft my own magic items for use, and we're using no-XP cost item crafting rules).

"Alright, now flank him. I said flank him! Not him, HIM! Do I have to do everything myself around here? Eldritch Blast Sneak Attack!"

I think what I like most about this idea is that I'll eventually be paying the other party members their salaries (and crafting their special-order magic items), so they had better do a good job keeping me alive :P

I'm actually thinking that this might be more of a boon to the party than anything else, as I'll be a designated magic item user. Looking at my character sheet from another, higher-optimization game, I see about a dozen or so charged and single-use magic items that I've never used - it isn't that I have crappy loot, it's that as a high-optimization character (I entered Mystic Theurge at 3rd level, stacked that on loredrake kobold, and dodged a book) I've always had something better I could do with my round than use that wand of web. As a character without very much magic of my own but the ability to use anything, party loot essentially becomes my spell list because it's more efficient to give everything to me so I can use it on my turn, meaning nothing we find gets lost or wasted. I may just consider hiring an Expert with UMD in other games from now on for this very purpose.

tl;dr - A player playing a commoner can still use magic device and hold a tower shield, and in my current game that's considered an acceptable combat role

[kabreras]

Best class ...
Commoner peon !
Best you can do with these stats and even then, farm work will be hard !