[Pathfinder] Rules Question, Hide in Plain Sight

[Tyrael]

Hi, folks. I'm playing in a Pathfinder game (level 8 atm) and I'm running around with a Ninja6/Shadowdancer2. I've been using HiPS with great glee and having fun using Acrobatics to pull off Super Awesome Epic maneuvers, jumping onto enemy bosses, Tumbling around, using Fast Stealth, all kinds of fun.

However, my DM's getting a little bit peeved, and we're currently having a discussion about Hide in Plain Sight, the Stealth skill, the Acrobatics skill, and how they all interact.

Relevant text:

A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/stealth



So, my DM believes that doing a Hide check in the middle of a fight should impose a -10 penalty because of the following clause:


While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.

However, I believe that the penalty shouldn't apply because I'm not actually moving fast into an observed place, I'm simply using Stealth right where I stand.


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Question 2: I've been a big fan of running around, Tumbling, Jumping up high into the air and doing other Acrobatic shenanigans while using Stealth. From what I can see in my research, using Acrobatics while Stealth'd doesn't mechanically impose any penalties, but logically doing cartwheels and hopping around should probably make make me easier to see.


What do you guys think?

[Shinigaze]

You can't stealth while someone is observing you, that is why you can use a bluff check, or a diversion from a friend to find cover and become unobserved and make a stealth check, with a -10 penalty for moving fast to said cover. HiPS states that you can make a stealth check while being observed and withouth cover/concealment, so no you wouldn't take a -10 penalty on that because you are not making a bluff check or moving to cover, you just hide in plain sight.

[Swooper]

Shinigaze is right, the -10 penalty only applies when you actually use Bluff to create a diversion to get behind cover unseen. Hide in Plain Sight makes doing that unnecessary, because you no longer need cover/concealment to hide.

As for the other question, I don't think there's any RAW for that, so I suppose your DM is free to houserule penalties for jumping around while stealthing. Note that there's a penalty for moving faster than half speed while stealthing, though.

[Curmudgeon]

Pathfinder has nerfed the use of Hide in Plain Sight to be close to useless.
It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging. In D&D 3.5, these things are eminently possible; they're just a lot more difficult (-20 penalty). So, to be able to use Stealth, you must move; you can't make a check without going to a different square.

[Swooper]

True. I ran into exactly that change last night while working on some homebrew. For what it's worth, there's an elf alternate racial ability in APG (Silent Hunter) that lets you stealth while running/charging at a -20 penalty, like any 3.5 character can do, and reduces the penalty for moving at full speed to what it is in 3.5 (-5). :smallconfused: Such a strange thing to nerf.

Edit: On a slight tangent (because we have Curmudgeon here), what action is it to use Bluff to create a diversion as the Hide/Stealth skills specify? Because it's not specified, it seems like it would default to the Bluff skill's full round action, which... is terrible. :smallsigh:

[Curmudgeon]

I'm not a Pathfinder expert by any means, but this looks like one of the many areas where you'll need to bribe your DM with tasty treats to treat it as the same action as a feint (standard action); otherwise the "Deceive Someone" time of minimum 1 full round is ridiculous.

[Tyrael]

Pathfinder has nerfed the use of Hide in Plain Sight to be close to useless. In D&D 3.5, these things are eminently possible; they're just a lot more difficult (-20 penalty). So, to be able to use Stealth, you must move; you can't make a check without going to a different square.

cannot use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging, okay. Those are all distinct actions within the game, and to me it makes a bit of sense that you can't hide from someone while stabbing their face. Running, the actual game action, I've always imagined as a full-out arms-pumping sprint, so Stealthing during that is equally illogical.

But what about simply moving and doing Acrobatics?

[Curmudgeon]

But what about simply moving and doing Acrobatics?
That appears to be completely legal.