Throwing...Elephants?

[Girshtop]

So back when I first started playing D&D (a couple years back now) and knew hardly anything about the game, I got my hands on a DMG. The coolest things in the book to me were the Figurines of Wonderous Power (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Figurine_of_Wondrous_Power). I thought of a character concept of a guy who would throw marble elephants at enemies, and laugh as he spoke the command word and a full sized elephant crushed them.

I was rummaging through my old papers and I saw a note that said "Elephant Thrower" and that brought back this amazingly naive character concept. Since I'm thinking of DMing my own campaign soon, I would love to have him in my world. Would this be at all viable?

It says nowhere that the figurine can't be mid flight when the command word is spoken, so what's stopping this from being a viable strategy? The only thing I see wrong is that it's a 17 000 gold projectile - but on the plus side, once you throw it an elephant is up and ready to fight for you..

Maybe he'd only throw one, I'd imagine that would be just as devastating.

What kind of damage are we thinking on this initial Elephant crushing?

From my short time in the GITP forums, I gotta say you guys are the most creative people ever. Please help me make this guy into a reality.

[kardar233]

Well, looking at the Hulking Hurler tables, and assuming I add an extra d6 for each mass doubling past the table, a hurled elephant (effectively what you're doing) would deal about 10d6 damage. That sounds a bit low, but the funny is worth it.

[Zaq]

I'm pretty sure that speaking a command word is a standard action, so you'll have to get an extra standard action after you've thrown it but before it lands.

Ah, here we go . . . (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord)


A command word can be a real word, but when this is the case, the holder of the item runs the risk of activating the item accidentally by speaking the word in normal conversation. More often, the command word is some seemingly nonsensical word, or a word or phrase from an ancient language no longer in common use. Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

So yeah, that's the first hurdle you'll have to overcome.

[Girshtop]

Both of those responses while very helpful, are a bit saddening.

What if we changed him up a bit?

What if he launched them from a mortar (or some other contraption/trap) at a longer distance with a move action (like stepping on a pressure plate), and then using his standard speaking the command word.

At the same time, wouldn't the extra distance or height the elephant was falling from add to the damage?

Backstory: I always imagined him as a monk that wished to be undisturbed, living at his monastery alone, which was also probably made from marble, guarding some secret. Or maybe said monk just really didn't want guests, so he'd keep people at a distance by throwing elephants.

So crazy it just might work..

[Kefkafreak]

You don't need the figurines. Look at this build :smallbiggrin:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1701.msg61403#msg61403

[kardar233]

Be careful to warn your prospective victims....

"Fetchez la vache!"
*trumpeting*
"Incoming!"
"Incoming what?"
"Incoming elephants!"
"OH GOD!"
*splat*

[Feriority]

I'm pretty sure that speaking a command word is a standard action, so you'll have to get an extra standard action after you've thrown it but before it lands.

The solution to this is clearly to have your character fly and *drop* elephants on people instead of just throwing them. That's a free action, so you can still use your standard while it falls :smallbiggrin:

[kharmakazy]

Here's what I would do..

Take a look at the amber amulet of vermin from the MiC, now forget all about that because that's just what I thought about before this...

GLOVES OF
ENDLESS ELEPHANTS

Body Slot: Hands
Caster Level: 11th
Activation: Free (command)
Weight: —

These Grey leather gloves are each embossed with the image of a tusk. When you activate these gloves, a tiny figurine of an elephant materializes in your hand. Thrown figurines created by these gloves magically transform into actual elephants to sometimes devastating consequences.

A figurine created by the gloves lasts until you resolve an attack with it, until you throw it on the ground, or until the end of your turn, whichever comes first.

Attacking with an elephant figurine is a ranged touch attack. A creature struck by this attack takes 2d8+15 damage and is, at the attacker's discretion, bull-rushed. Treat this attack as a bull rush with a +20 bonus on the Strength check(+10 for Strength 30, +8 for being Huge, and a +2 bonus for charging, which it always gets). The elephant always moves with the opponent to push that target back the full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit.

Figurines striking their target or figurines impacting on any hard surface immediately transform into an elephant (as per Summon Nature’s Ally VI) and may attack immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

Figurines that fail to strike their targets land in the first available free space adjacent to their target. In the event that there is no free space able to hold the elephant, the figurine is simply destroyed.

Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wondrous Item,
Summon Nature’s Ally VI, Forceful Hand.
Cost to Create: 118,800 gp, 9504 XP, 237 days.

:smallcool:

[Talakeal]

On a related note, are you allowed to use a command word when you aren't actually in contact with an item?

If so, then what is to stop an opponent who has learned the command word shouting it in your pressence while the figurine is still in your backpack, crushing you under said elephant?

[Vizzerdrix]

I'm pretty sure that speaking a command word is a standard action, so you'll have to get an extra standard action after you've thrown it but before it lands.

Ah, here we go . . . (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord)



So yeah, that's the first hurdle you'll have to overcome.

Would not Travel Devotion get around that?

[Dragonsoul]

You could use a bag of tricks, the tan one has a chance of elephants, also rhinos and tigers, which still works for comedy purposes.

[kharmakazy]

I'm pretty sure that speaking a command word is a standard action, so you'll have to get an extra standard action after you've thrown it but before it lands.

Ah, here we go . . . (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord)



So yeah, that's the first hurdle you'll have to overcome.

Oddly MiC has command word items that are free actions to activate. Not sure if there is other precedence for this though.


On a related note, are you allowed to use a command word when you aren't actually in contact with an item?

If so, then what is to stop an opponent who has learned the command word shouting it in your pressence while the figurine is still in your backpack, crushing you under said elephant?

not sure if its in srd, but MiC says you need to "properly possess" a magic item to activate it.

[Curmudgeon]

not sure if its in srd, but MiC says you need to "properly possess" a magic item to activate it.
Which means any scheme predicated on activating something after it leaves your possession is doomed to failure.

[Lateral]

Which means any scheme predicated on activating something after it leaves your possession is doomed to failure.

I don't know, 'properly possess' is pretty vague and could be interpreted to mean 'properly own', as in 'you bought and paid for it or made it yourself, and all debts, etc. have been paid off on it.' The word 'possess' has more than one meaning.

[kharmakazy]

I don't know, 'properly possess' is pretty vague and could be interpreted to mean 'properly own', as in 'you bought and paid for it or made it yourself, and all debts, etc. have been paid off on it.' The word 'possess' has more than one meaning.

Yes, you can only activate them if you are a FoP and ask politely first.

Can't quote too much of the non SRD content, but it is followed directly by a comma, hold, or wear.

Seems pretty clear.

But specific overrides general so if a magic item specifies you can activate it from afar, then there you go.

[Lateral]

Can't quote too much of the non SRD content, but it is followed directly by a comma, hold, or wear.

Seems pretty clear.

Ah. You didn't say that; that's completely different.

[Girshtop]

Can't quote too much of the non SRD content, but it is followed directly by a comma, hold, or wear.

Seems pretty clear.

But specific overrides general so if a magic item specifies you can activate it from afar, then there you go.

True, but with the intention of using it as a thrown weapon, could you not argue that "properly possess" works? :smallwink:

On the next page in MIC (220) it discusses activating a thrown magic item, and those can be activated during flight.

In fact, from the srd for the figurines, "When the figurine is tossed down and the correct command word spoken, it becomes a living creature of normal size (except when noted otherwise below)."
It specifically notes that the figurine is no longer in the characters (direct) possession.

Am I so fueled with passion for this character that I'm not seeing the holes, or is that a legit argument?

[kharmakazy]

True, but with the intention of using it as a thrown weapon, could you not argue that "properly possess" works? :smallwink:

On the next page in MIC (220) it discusses activating a thrown magic item, and those can be activated during flight.

In fact, from the srd for the figurines, "When the figurine is tossed down and the correct command word spoken, it becomes a living creature of normal size (except when noted otherwise below)."
It specifically notes that the figurine is no longer in the characters (direct) possession.

Am I so fueled with passion for this character that I'm not seeing the holes, or is that a legit argument?

Well, it's not a thrown weapon. I mean if I throw any magic item doesn't mean I can suddenly activate it during flight.

BUT since the figure says you can throw it down then activate it, Specific overrides general so that works imho.

It's a flavorful character idea. I wouldn't play it as a PC due to ridiculous price per attack (unless you use my gloves :D) but as a NPC since you are DMing it should be pretty funny and interesting. (Be wary of PC's killing the guy really quick and then looting hundreds of elephant tokens...)

[Girshtop]

Well, it's not a thrown weapon. I mean if I throw any magic item doesn't mean I can suddenly activate it during flight.


Very true. A good point.


It's a flavorful character idea. I wouldn't play it as a PC due to ridiculous price per attack (unless you use my gloves :D) but as a NPC since you are DMing it should be pretty funny and interesting. (Be wary of PC's killing the guy really quick and then looting hundreds of elephant tokens...)

Yea, that would be problem two, after actually creating him. Could there be an enchantment that only lets them be used by the specific monk, or maybe only can be used within the area of the marble monastery?

Or maybe he's only got one, and it's his ace in the hole. Or the PC's would need to put all the marble elephants into a slot in the monastery (like a key) in order to obtain something, which may or may not make the whole monastery crumble from within, crushing everything inside, figurines included.

Any other, more creative ideas to not giving the party 5 marble elephants?

[Lateral]

Yea, that would be problem two, after actually creating him. Could there be an enchantment that only lets them be used by the specific monk, or maybe only can be used within the area of the marble monastery?
The custom item rules allow this, but I'd advise against it; it sets a bad precedent. That way lies 'ailhay thulucay.'

[Girshtop]

The custom item rules allow this, but I'd advise against it; it sets a bad precedent. That way lies 'ailhay thulucay.'

Not sure I get the reference, but I see your point.

[herrhauptmann]

Would not Travel Devotion get around that?

Travel devotion just lets you get a move action in addition to your full attack or other full round action. Don't think that means you can get 2 standard actions.

Regarding the properly possessing something, I'd say no, an enemy can't activate the items in your backpack because you bought/stole/looted them, not him. Just like you can't do it to the BBEG. Unless he's wearing a necklace of fireballs, then just hit him with all the fire you can...

Have you thought of a war hulk/hulking hurler build? Between the two, your damage capacity becomes based off of the weight of the item you're throwing. Which means it's really just limited to your carrying capacity. And as a war hulk, your strength is going up each level. Then buy the belt of wide earth from the MiC, it's from one of the item sets. It doubles your carrying capacity.

Alternatively, I'm sure someone, somewhere here, did a 'pokeball' magic item. Throw a little ball, and suddenly there's an elephant.

[Girshtop]

I'm not going to lie, this gem of an idea came to me in my 3rd (I think) campaign. Level 16, and I was a half-celestial bard. Group of 7 or so of us, one of which was a Half-Dragon Were-Bear. A colossal dragon stopped us and demanded our gold and items. He didn't expect us to fight back. Long story short, the dragon was dragged back to town by the Half-Dragon Were-Bear and his body was used for more magic items!

After the session, we were all pretty impressed by the carrying capacity of this character, and the animal hurler idea came out of that. Of course, after finding the figurines, I thought that it might be viable even if you didn't have to have a STR of 40-60 or whatever he had.

I know the War Hulk, but I was hoping he would be a medium (or smaller) sized guy. Hulking Hurler is from which book?

[Ravens_cry]

Ah the Hulking Hurler.
Up their strength enough, and well, when they say they use throwing stars, wear sunscreen.

[Girshtop]

Ah the Hulking Hurler.
Up their strength enough, and well, when they say they use throwing stars, wear sunscreen.

I Lol'd. Thanks for that.

[BIGMamaSloth]

hey I know your whole build is elephant thrower, but if it's just huge stuff coming out of a magic item, you could use tree tokens and throw 60 ft oak trees at people. (reasoning is that there about 16,000 or more gold cheaper per attack. :smalltongue:)

[Xyk]

hey I know your whole build is elephant thrower, but if it's just huge stuff coming out of a magic item, you could use tree tokens and throw 60 ft oak trees at people. (reasoning is that there about 16,000 or more gold cheaper per attack. :smalltongue:)

Those are feather tokens. Try to throw a feather.

[BIGMamaSloth]

Those are feather tokens. Try to throw a feather.

oh... right... tie a rock to them?:smallbiggrin:

[Girshtop]

oh... right... tie a rock to them?:smallbiggrin:

OR

Tie a marble elephant to them....

Now we're talking!

[CyMage]

All you need is one figurine, a belt of battle or two, and enough levels in Bloodstorm Blade to make full attacks with a thrown weapon.

Activate the BoB for an extra standard action. Activate the figurine. Full attack with a flying elephant.

[Moose Man]

All you need is one figurine, a belt of battle or two, and enough levels in Bloodstorm Blade to make full attacks with a thrown weapon.

Activate the BoB for an extra standard action. Activate the figurine. Full attack with a flying elephant.

Beware it coming back.

[holywhippet]

Take a single level or wizard or sorcerer, or use some other means of getting a familiar. Get one that can speak the command word and have them hold onto the figurine when you toss it. They can activate it on route.

[Drelua]

Get an awakened elephant and a portable hole, give the elephant an item it can activate at-will for dimension door, and you've got a returning elephant, albeit a very expensive one. You could get a wand of polymorph and turn it into a bird before combat, and dispel it in mid-combat, if you use the rule which I got from Drizzt books that if you cast it, you can freely dispel it, and if that applies to things cast through a wand.

I know its not exactly what you asked for, but I figured I'd share one of my evil elephant-related plans.

[Girshtop]

I know its not exactly what you asked for, but I figured I'd share one of my evil elephant-related plans.

Aren't all plans involving elephants evil in nature?

[kharmakazy]

That sounds more expensive than my gloves...

[Drelua]

Kharmakazy, I never said it was practical, I just liked the awakened elephant idea. Plus, I just realized it could dimension door itself up and drop itself on your enemies again. But then there's falling damage...If only it could make that DC 100 tumble check...

Oh, and Girshtop, I suppose you're right.

Edit: I did the math; that whole plan would actually cost 55,033 gp which, if I'm not mistaken, is less than half of your listed creation cost, with no experience component. turns out I wasn't being anywhere near as crazy as I thought. I'll have to work on that...

[CyMage]

Beware it coming back.

Bloodstorm Blade lets you catch the weapon you're using just fine. As long as you can lift the elephant and throw it, you're good.

[Drelua]

Just had a thought - could a bigby's hand spell throw the elephant for you?

[Girshtop]

Just had a thought - could a bigby's hand spell throw the elephant for you?

As far as I can tell, no.

It can only be used as a barrier, bull rush, grapple, or attack, according to the respective spells.

Are you thinking of Mage Hand (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageHand.htm)?

I would imagine it would work, unless a fist sized piece of marble weighs more than 5 lbs?

I dunno, I would kind of want this to be hurled, or at least used as a projectile. 15 feet seems kind of measly, and they would be in combat range by that point.

I'm thinking put it on a spring board, and step on the activation trigger with your move action to launch it hundreds of feet, and standard action to activate it.

[RedWarrior0]

What about a catapult?

[Drelua]

Maybe find some enchantment to hide a catapult in your pocket. Not exactly throwing it yourself, but who could expect that

"Is that a catapult in your pocket or are you just...wait, where'd you get an elephant? Why is it climbing on the...OH, DEAR GOD,

I especially like the image of an intelligent, evil elephant being launched through the air laughing maniacally before crushing your enemies. Maybe make it a half-fiend...

Edit: Dammit, Red Warrior, you ninja'd my idea!

[holywhippet]

Question - would hitting an item that is enchanted to enlarge/shrink on command with a dispel magic make it go to it's natural size (assuming the spell works)? If so, could you "skeet shoot" with shrunken items?

[Curmudgeon]

Question - would hitting an item that is enchanted to enlarge/shrink on command with a dispel magic make it go to it's natural size (assuming the spell works)? If so, could you "skeet shoot" with shrunken items?
Maybe, but you're going to have a couple of problems.

You've got to find an item that will still respond to a command when it's out of your possession.
Next, find some way to get an attack and a separate standard action to happen in close sequence.

[holywhippet]

Maybe, but you're going to have a couple of problems.

You've got to find an item that will still respond to a command when it's out of your possession.
Next, find some way to get an attack and a separate standard action to happen in close sequence.


I figured using a dispel magic would get around the command word problem - if dispelling works on the item it would return to it's full size without needing to be commanded.

You could have someone else cast dispel, or throw a quickened dispel yourself.

[Girshtop]

...if dispelling works on the item it would return to it's full size without needing to be commanded.

If you guys are talking in reference to the marble elephant of wondrous power, I'm pretty sure it began as a marble elephant statue, and the magical aspect would be summoning an elephant.

So, by casting dispel magic on it, you'd turn the elephant back into a statue..which is the opposite effect of what we'd want.

[Rei_Jin]

I like the idea of taking a Quaals Feather Token and using the rules that they do to create those, create an elephant token. Imagine the hilarity you could create with that...

PC: I throw at thee my mightiest attack, a soft cushion!
BBEG: A... soft cushion? Are you mad?
PC: Ailhay Thulucay! (Elephants erupt from pillow full of feather tokens)

[gomipile]

Well, looking at the Hulking Hurler tables, and assuming I add an extra d6 for each mass doubling past the table, a hurled elephant (effectively what you're doing) would deal about 10d6 damage. That sounds a bit low, but the funny is worth it.

If it worked that way, the Hulking Hurler wouldn't be anywhere near as good as it is.

Read the first paragraph of the Improvised Weapon Damage section on p.159 of Complete Warrior. It describes how to extend the table there.

[herrhauptmann]

I know the War Hulk, but I was hoping he would be a medium (or smaller) sized guy. Hulking Hurler is from which book?
Hulking hurler is from Complete Warrior.

[Darrin]

I like the idea of taking a Quaals Feather Token and using the rules that they do to create those, create an elephant token.

Assuming you can establish that a Swan Boat (http://srd.realmspire.com/magicItemsWI.html#feather-token) weighs as much if not more than an elephant, you can already do that with an existing feather token. Fly above your target (or give it to a flying familiar/companion/cohort/etc., such as an unseen servant), and activate the token (standard action, but no command word mentioned, so no verbal component necessary).

Another method might use a flying forcewall surfboard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10296634&postcount=9) to create a platform for summoning creatures, and then remove/resize the surfboard. (The original idea was to summon some fiendish rhinos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10294124&postcount=5), then adapted to acid jello carpet bombing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185932), but you could just as easily use elephants).

That's not really so much throwing as dropping, though.

[Laniius]

I'm pretty sure that speaking a command word is a standard action, so you'll have to get an extra standard action after you've thrown it but before it lands.

Ah, here we go . . . (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#commandWord)



So yeah, that's the first hurdle you'll have to overcome.

Be a factotum, or get access to the celerity line of spells.

[Dragonsoul]

of course, the real question is- If you do obtain a throwing Elephant could you make it returning and if so, can the elephant grapple the target so that the foe is brought back to you.

Fetch