How much damage is a combat bonus worth...[brainstorm]?

[Mulletmanalive]

NEW Point:

After some helpful input from folks about the idea of divine magic and keeping it distinct from my vision of arcane magic, here's the next stage:

My format is table based, with no scaling; a spell is composed by choosing from tables and then writing up the spell for your own reference, hence why everyone is a bit different in their magic. Research is dictated by these tables. I have blasting mostly sorted; each level of the spell allows it to deal 2d6 damage, with each caster being allowed a number of spell levels equal to their class level each combat.

Obviously, there are other options like inflicting conditions like entangled and stuff.

The flipside of that is that buffs and debuffs [all of which last until removed with a save, a la 4e, or one minute for buffs] need to be callibrated against this.

So, the question is:

Is a +1 bonus on Attack Rolls or Defence or Saves or Skills worth more or less than 2d6 damage that requires a conventional attack roll?

[Yitzi]

I'd say buffing, cursing, knowing the future, and minds (that last does overlap with psionics, but with a different flavor; psionics would be more charm and dominate type effects with a bit of suggestion sort of stuff, while divine magic would be more heavily of the serious "cloud mind" variety.) You might also want to consider some minor blasting powers at higher levels (maybe keep Flame Strike.)

[DiBastet]

If you're reworking the entire system, than I can give you a good idea:

Divine magic work with things about the souls of the followers and the fight between the gods, but much more importantly: It works with the portfolio of the gods.

You could work this by portfolio or by domain. A god of thunder and sea would allow miracles of thunder and sea, controlling weather and this kind of thing.

it makes much easier to make divine magic understandable if the divine magicians work the power of their gods.


Also, you should differentiate divine magic from nature magic. nature magic would work with the climate, seasons and plants and animals.

[Shadow Lord]

thereshouldntbeanydivinemagic

Yup, you read it. There shouldn't be any Divine Magic. Divine Magic is stupid, in that it's completely and utterly retarded. It should never have existed. Divine peeps should only be able to heal, but they should heal at least double the amount of damage that a caster would be able to dish out.

[Yitzi]

thereshouldntbeanydivinemagic

Yup, you read it. There shouldn't be any Divine Magic. Divine Magic is stupid, in that it's completely and utterly retarded. It should never have existed. Divine peeps should only be able to heal, but they should heal at least double the amount of damage that a caster would be able to dish out.

Why is it so stupid?

[Quellian-dyrae]

Yeah I'd say heal, buff, debuff, protect, and divine (err...in the "divination" sense). And, ya know, angel/demon summons. Specifically, I'd say it's more about requesting favors of the gods, which are quite clear when they manifest, even if they aren't big and flashy like arcane magic. So they might not bulk you up or create a glowing shield or cause your flesh to knit back together...but they make you stronger, or just make it so you don't get hit as often, or just make the wound gone. Glowy light optional.

[Dryad]

Divine Magic is a stupid idea because it pretends to be something it's not: It pretends to be Non-magic, while it is obviously magical.
It doesn't really matter how you spin it; divine magic is essentially the same as arcane magic, with one exception: For some odd reason, divine magic doesn't suffer from spell failure. And that's it. There's nothing Divine Magic does, or can do, that Arcane Magic cannot do, and since Arcane Magic is pretty much the default of magic, we should simply do away with the distinction of Divine and Arcane altogether, and just have Magic.

And then there's personal reasons: Power bestowed by deities? How does that work? Does a God use you as a Duracell bunny? Shove some sort of metaphysical battery labelled 'Divine' up your jumper?
I mean: Wizards and sorcerers have it easy: A Wizard knows how the fabric of reality works, and how to shape it to her will. A Sorcerer is like a wizard, but without the real knowledge, and just knows she can affect the fabric, and change some stuff to her will.
A Bard learns how to manipulate the Fabric through sound and re-arranging the harmonies of stuff.
A Divine caster apparently doesn't require this knowledge or intuition. She's got a few powers bestowed on her by her God, and can use those as she pleases.
Of course, with a few adjustments, many people play 'atheist clerics,' who gain domains based on what they stand for, and then, the magic can be summed up as throwing lots of willpower against the fabrics of reality. Which is, in itself, a pretty solid explanation as far as magic goes; it's as good as that of the sorcerer, at least. BUT: It also completely nullifies the whole 'God's Duracell Bunny' theory, and all of a sudden, the existence of deities in your setting (and therefore, that which gave birth to the need of a separation between arcane and divine casting in the first place) becomes irrelevant.

[Mulletmanalive]

For those of you who have stated that divine magic is stupid, please stop. I've read your comments, they're almost all based on D&D assumptions and aren't things that are being brought over.

I'll be more precise about this:

Arcane magic is guesswork on the parts of the casters; it's inexact, clumsey and powerful. It can change gross matter but not complex matter, so it can't do much to living material because the casters just ain't capable of holding the structure of such things in their heads in order to change it. Hence, limited to spacial, energy and simple matter manipulation like reshaping metals or turning air into wood [which, as mentioned, has three materials to it in a moderately simple arrangement].

Divine magic is the same forces controlled by deities, which are a very complex subject in setting. They can do much finer controls and can distort the spiritual nexi of the target being. There's no difference between nature and divine, just nature deities and non-nature deities; most of the climate control stuff will probably end up being domains.

I just wanted some help creating divine spellcasters without ending up with the stupid, Terry Goodkind situation, where the two kinds of casters are the same, just that divine ones have to argue with their overlords occasionally...

[DiBastet]

Divine magic doesn't do anything. Okay, maybe helping the soul and the fauithful, however, the whole idea of divine spell list, a thing we got from AD&D where clerics were basically warrior priests of the christian faith, isn't exactly what we have in the games, literature, settings and etc, its not the Lore we are used. If in your setting there's no distinction about nature and divine magic then it's a problem of your setting, and you'll have to work with druid-cleric difference, but that's part of the point of making a system from scratch. It should always have been a separate thing.

So I stand by my suggestion: just a little of generic faithful-helping spells, but the core of the power should be the portfolio, not the other way around, as in our basic system.

[Dryad]

Oh; I didn't mean it like that.. I was merely clarifying an otherwise empty (and therefore invalid) statement. :smallbiggrin:

To my mind, the difference between Arcane and Divine magic is not in nature; it is in appliance. They're both magic, but Arcane Magic tends to bend reality to the Arcanist's will; they're frilly with magic, and not too careful in general.
Divine Magic would be exactly the same, but more about restoring or keeping order, helping those in need through more subtle ways. Healing would be one of them; mending someone's body or mind from damage or poison, pain or injury.
Protecting would be another.
And, of course, I think Divine Magic should also practice the whole 'enabler' role. Enable people to express the qualities they already possess; make them stronger, faster, smarter, more resilient as their hidden qualities are enlarged (buffs).

Let arcanists conjure stuff out of thin air, be it fireballs, lightning, raw matter and such, and let Priests play a more supporting role. That would be my suggestion. Arcanists are more of a fore-front unit: They shine themselves. Priests are more of a back-ground unit; they allow other people to shine.

[Yitzi]

Divine Magic is a stupid idea because it pretends to be something it's not: It pretends to be Non-magic, while it is obviously magical.

How does it pretend to be non-magic?


It doesn't really matter how you spin it; divine magic is essentially the same as arcane magic, with one exception: For some odd reason, divine magic doesn't suffer from spell failure. And that's it. There's nothing Divine Magic does, or can do, that Arcane Magic cannot do

Efficient healing, for instance.
But in any case, that's a statement about standard D&D, while this thread is specifically about making a whole new system. So unless your claim is that the fundamental concept of "power from a god" is stupid, "Divine Magic is stupid" doesn't belong in this thread.


And then there's personal reasons: Power bestowed by deities? How does that work? Does a God use you as a Duracell bunny? Shove some sort of metaphysical battery labelled 'Divine' up your jumper?

Said god presumably allows you to channel part of its power through yourself.


Of course, with a few adjustments, many people play 'atheist clerics,' who gain domains based on what they stand for, and then, the magic can be summed up as throwing lots of willpower against the fabrics of reality.

Not really; even a principle-based cleric (or a druid) is essentially channeling quasi-deific forces.


I'll be more precise about this:

Arcane magic is guesswork on the parts of the casters; it's inexact, clumsey and powerful. It can change gross matter but not complex matter, so it can't do much to living material because the casters just ain't capable of holding the structure of such things in their heads in order to change it. Hence, limited to spacial, energy and simple matter manipulation like reshaping metals or turning air into wood [which, as mentioned, has three materials to it in a moderately simple arrangement].

Divine magic is the same forces controlled by deities, which are a very complex subject in setting. They can do much finer controls and can distort the spiritual nexi of the target being.

Ah, now this is somewhat more detailed. Still, the implications for what divine magic should allow then seem to encroach on the psionics area, so if arcane magic is reality-manipulation on a clumsy scale, and divine magic is the same done with far finer controls (you'll also have to figure out why arcane casters can do things that divine casters can't, in that case), it'd be a good idea to know how psionics plays into that conceptually.

[Dryad]

Yitzi: I was merely clarifying.

[Yora]

I'm actually doing a seminar on pretty much this issue this semester. :smallbiggrin:
Scientists have wondered for centuries, how to answer that question, and don't have any really good answers.

One way to do it would be to say that arcane magic can be done all by yourself. The wizard is the initiator of the spell and has complete control over it. If the spell has spirits of some sort doing a task for the wizard, they are his complete slaves and have no choice at all if they want to obey or not. When the spell fails, it's because there was a mistake in the casting, but when everything is performed correctly, it can't fail.
Divine magic requires some outside agency. The priest does not create the magical effect, he requests it. When he is in good standing with the god or the spirits, his request will always be granted, but if the divine patron is displeased, it can be ignored.

Another distinction that is often made (but certainly not applicable to all situations) is that arcane magic creates an immediate effect that directly benefits the wizard or his client. Curing illness, getting someone to love you, gaining invulnerability, and so on. Divine magic is usually a more communal affair. A priest would pray for rain or protection against disasters, but he probably wouldn't help an individual to become rich.

[Mulletmanalive]

I'm actually doing a seminar on pretty much this issue this semester. :smallbiggrin:
Scientists have wondered for centuries, how to answer that question, and don't have any really good answers.

The classical church split was Theurgy and Thaumaturgy; the former being when you ask a major power for help and the latter being when you bully or bribe lesser things for help.

The idea of magic as something separate from the supernatural [fairies at the very least], i've not found in anything written prior to the 20th century really.

On Topic: Assume that when I say "Divine" i mean everything where a patron grants or lends power and has some influence on the spell, be that gods, ghosts, demons, angels, fairies or elementals

This is only about the core stuff that all gods etc can grant, so i'm thinking healing, buffs and debuffs and limited castigation magic, with weather, terrain, and blasting type things being put into domains...

[Mulletmanalive]

New question.

[Dryad]

Is a +1 bonus on Attack Rolls or Defence or Saves or Skills worth more or less than 2d6 damage that requires a conventional attack roll?
This depends on two things:
1: What kind of chance number is there? (DnD uses 1-20, where 1 is 5% of the total. WoD uses multiple dice, where the target number on each die is roughly 50%)
2: What is the static number without any modifiers? (As in: Static DnD 3.5 AC = 10 without modifiers. In a range of 1-20, this is roughly 50%.)

I think you're using basic DnD rules, here, where a +1 is equal to a 5% increase to success chance.

Now the other part: 2d6. How powerful is 2d6? That depends on the rest of the damage before adding the 2d6 when compared to the amount of hit points (and defenses) the average target has.

On the whole, usually 2d6 is worth a +2 enhancement bonus in normal DnD 3.5. If you keep in mind that an enhancement bonus not only works on hit but also damage, it might be worth a flat +3 to hit (or even more). However, the flip-side is that that would mean you could be stacking too much(?) hit chance, which would be bad for balance as well.

Personally, I would say 1d4 damage should be worth about the same as +1 hit, overall.

[DiBastet]

you should separate the bonuses, if you're following D&D basic... mage armor gives you 4 bonus, while bull strenght gives you +2... It's a strange question.

[Mulletmanalive]

Trouble with using existing D&D spells as an example is that many of them were purposefully made better than others, while some were based on legacy effects and so were more powerful that way.

Analysis of existing stuff:

{table]Spell|Level|Total bonus [reasoning]

Mage Armour|1|+4 [+4 AC]

Bull's Strength|2|+6 [+2 attack +2 damage +2 manouvre]

Cat's Grace|2|+6 [+2 attack +2 AC +2 Reflex save]

Shield|1|+4 + misc bonus

Magic Weapon|1|+2 [+1 attack +1 damage]

True Strike|1|+20* [+20 attack, one time only]

Heroism|2|+8 ish [+2 attack, +2 damage, +2 saves, +2 all skills]

Bless|1|+2 [+1 attack, +1 fear saves...thrown by area effect]
[/table]

Trouble is, most of these are considered a far more worthwhile investment than a blasting spell. Bless is included for comparison but i'd say that it's value is probably double what it is, simply because it's multiple target

[Yitzi]

To the new point (bonuses): I'd say you should look at the total expected damage caused or prevented, halve it (because it's not all up-front, so can't be used to take out dangerous enemies quickly), divide by the hit chance for the direct-damage attack, and use that.

So a +1 (on a d20 roll) to attack that will last a combat that's (on average) 5 rounds with 1 attack per round should count as 1/2 the damage done by one of those attacks assuming that the direct-damage hits half the time.

For more details, you'd really need to provide the details on the attacks that are being boosted.

Saves would be roughly similar. Skills are trickier since they have noncombat application as well...

[Ingus]

NEW Point:

So, the question is:

Is a +1 bonus on Attack Rolls or Defence or Saves or Skills worth more or less than 2d6 damage that requires a conventional attack roll?

It really depends on the duration. If you've a +1 all day, it will perform better than a single 2d6 damage; anything short will not.
+1 in attack rolls in a d20 system is a 5% more to hit. Assuming you do 1d6 damage per hit, you've got to do 40 attacks to do the same damage.
So it would be a fair trade off for an all day buff, expecially if you go dungeoning; it would be a fair trade, maybe, even for a "one encounter duration" if it is a +1 mass (all the party attacks, doesn't it?).
To have a fair trade with a one target, one encounter (or less) duration, you need a better bonus, a mass effect (<- this is not a commercial :smallbiggrin: ) or a multiple effect (attack, defence and skills).

The correct balance point is a matter of taste and statistics. The latter you can practice with, the former is really up to you

Edit: I've only now noticed the part "that requires a conventional attack roll". Thus, I think the +1 is a fairer trade, but the overall reasoning stands

[Mulletmanalive]

Lets see...

A pistol deals 2d8 [9] damage and a Sword [in my games] is usually 1d10 + 3 [8] if you've built to actually enter combat. With Weapon Specialisation, those would be 3d8+2 [15] or 2d10+5 [16].

Assuming those who don't have Weapon Specialisation have Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting...

a +1 bonus yields up the following damage:

Pistol [Rapid Shot] 9 x 0.05 x 10 [two shots a round for 5 rounds] = 4.5 extra damage.
Sword [Two Weapon] 8 x 0.05 x 10 [two attacks a round for 5 rounds] = 4 extra damage.
Pistol [Weapon Specialisation] 15 x 0.05 x 5 [one shot a round for 5 rounds] = 3.75 extra damage.
Sword [Weapon Specialisation] 16 x 0.05 x 5 [one shot a round for 5 rounds] = 4 extra damage.

I know my custom feats make that a little nonsensical, but to me that indicates that to have a similar overall effect to a blasting spell, a buff needs an overall bonus of +1 per level of the spell donating it.

Caps will have to be decided...

To repeat, these spells consume a Standard action for the caster but can be done every encounter rather than having a daily limit like in D&D.

[Ingus]

Lets see...


Glad to be of assistence :smallwink:
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime!" (I love halfling wisdom)

[DarkLordZebedee]

Hey Mulletman,

Have you considered using some sort of charging mechanic for Divine magic, where you build them up spell slots or whatever through worshipful acts?

Maby not totally appropriate given the MV setting, but as a charging/spell regaining mechanic it emphasises the issue of the power coming from another source that you are building up credit with, not so much for big celestially god type creatures, but if you are looking at localised nature gods and the like that support communities in exchange for harvest festivals or appropriate sacrafices.

I realise that officially the dnd system assumes clerics are nebulously praying to get back/maintain their spells, but this way you actually specify the sort of rituals that are required, offering motivation to do stuff like donate cash to churches/perform large scale rituals.

I have to admit to a train of thought inspired by the charging mechanic from Unknown Armies magic as the basis for this.

[Ingus]

Lets see...

A pistol deals 2d8 [9] damage and a Sword [in my games] is usually 1d10 + 3 [8] if you've built to actually enter combat. With Weapon Specialisation, those would be 3d8+2 [15] or 2d10+5 [16].

Assuming those who don't have Weapon Specialisation have Rapid Shot or Two Weapon Fighting...

a +1 bonus yields up the following damage:

Pistol [Rapid Shot] 9 x 0.05 x 10 [two shots a round for 5 rounds] = 4.5 extra damage.
Sword [Two Weapon] 8 x 0.05 x 10 [two attacks a round for 5 rounds] = 4 extra damage.
Pistol [Weapon Specialisation] 15 x 0.05 x 5 [one shot a round for 5 rounds] = 3.75 extra damage.
Sword [Weapon Specialisation] 16 x 0.05 x 5 [one shot a round for 5 rounds] = 4 extra damage.

I know my custom feats make that a little nonsensical, but to me that indicates that to have a similar overall effect to a blasting spell, a buff needs an overall bonus of +1 per level of the spell donating it.

Caps will have to be decided...

To repeat, these spells consume a Standard action for the caster but can be done every encounter rather than having a daily limit like in D&D.

Thank you for the clarification. Admitting the caster hits with a 11 or plus (50% success) with the 2d6 attack, it is always a fair trade (2d6 are 7 average, 7 x 0.5 = 3.5 as expected damage for a given spell). Increasing your divine spellcaster chance to hit, the utility of the switch decreases.

As a suggestion, you can put down other modification than the scaling +X to the buff (i.e.: multiple targets, longer duration, extra stuff).
And remember that buffing attack is very useful, since attack always come into play; buffing AC (or defense) is also useful, 'cause it comes to play often; buffing ST is not always so useful, 'cause the ST comes to play circumstantially; buffing skills is not so useful, averagely, 'cause it is higly circumstantial.

So you should count that a +1 attack values more or less like a +1 on defense, while a +1 on all ST has a lower value (and lower a +1 to a single ST), a +1 to all skills is circumstantial and a +1 to a single skill is often useless.

[Epsilon Rose]

Personally, I don't think it's worth it. But that's mostly from a psychological perspective. I hate chipping away with -1s and +1s don't feel particularly relevant especially if they don't stack.

That said, I don't think you're really giving blasters enough to work with. A fighter with a flaming greatsword get's 3d6 +strength*1.5+power attack per attack and they eventually get 4 attacks per round. That means (unless I've horribly misread something) a 20th level blaster can only keep up with a 16th level fighter with 10 strength and no power attack for 3 rounds (it's also worth noting that the blasters attack will be significantly less for most of this).
Also, I'm assuming you're not making them roll an attack and a save.