Other PrC like the Gray Guard?

[TheRinni]

So, I have a player in a current game who's currently a Gray Guard, but would like to work towards something else. Does anyone have any ideas?

Originally we tossed around the Saint Template idea, but dismissed it because the Gray Guard doesn't qualify for it - particularly the part: "Must never have lost the benefit of exalted feats or class abilities because of committing an evil act, even if the character properly atoned."

Anyways, does anyone have any ideas of something along the lines of a template, or PrC class this character can work towards? We'd like it to keep with the badass-paladin feel the Gray Guard gives.

[Zaq]

What, specifically, do you like about the Gray Guard? All I see in it is "Paladin with an easier time atoning for breaking the code." Oh, and a slightly looser smite, and an underwhelming anti-LoH ability.

So . . . what are you enjoying about Gray Guard? Just the fluff? That's easily portable. What do you mean when you say you want it to be like the Gray Guard?

[Prime32]

Anyways, does anyone have any ideas of something along the lines of a template, or PrC class this character can work towards? We'd like it to keep with the badass-paladin feel the Gray Guard gives....fighting chaotic people is more badass than fighting evil people? :smallconfused:

The shadowbane inquisitor from Complete Adventurer (or was it Scoundrel?) is pretty similar. Grants sneak attack and some of the prereqs for blackguard IIRC.

[Andre]

It's the Shadowbane Inquisitor and the Shadowbane Stalker, actually. Both are 10 levels PrC, Lawful Good, require and grant a sneak attack progression plus other miscellaneous bonuses to aide in out-of-combat tasks. The first is combat-focused while the second advances divine spellcasting 7/10. You can find them in Complete Adventurers.
You might want also to give a look to more "rather lawful than good" classes like the Justiciar.

But seriously, why would you want to stray from the whatever-it-takes paladin? Blonde haired white-clad damsel-saving "holier-than-thou" with a stick up their butt and a white horse behind it paladins got nothin' on him. :smallwink:
Hah, just kidding. But it's true that most just can't seem to understand the concept of the Gray Guard.

[TheRinni]

...fighting chaotic people is more badass than fighting evil people?

No, but not being as tied down by idealistic codes makes them more badass in my opinion.


What, specifically, do you like about the Gray Guard? All I see in it is "Paladin with an easier time atoning for breaking the code." Oh, and a slightly looser smite, and an underwhelming anti-LoH ability.

So . . . what are you enjoying about Gray Guard? Just the fluff? That's easily portable. What do you mean when you say you want it to be like the Gray Guard?

What he likes about them is the reason their atonement and code restrictions are so lose, which is also the flavor of the class:

Only the most realistic and battleworn paladins become gray guards. They know the cruelties of the world cannot be expunged merely by good example and kind words.

This archetype, upheld by both idealistic knights and their enemies, has killed countless honorable warriors. Taking a cue from the enemies of their faith, many good-aligned religions have established secretive orders of the most dedicated and hardened soldiers.

[hivedragon]

How 'bout the Kensai?

[faceroll]

...fighting chaotic people is more badass than fighting evil people? :smallconfused:

yes
http://www.freewebs.com/delta187/Valis%20Grey%20Knight%20Statue.jpg

[Prime32]

No, but not being as tied down by idealistic codes makes them more badass in my opinion.

What he likes about them is the reason their atonement and code restrictions are so lose, which is also the flavor of the class:

Only the most realistic and battleworn paladins become gray guards. They know the cruelties of the world cannot be expunged merely by good example and kind words.

This archetype, upheld by both idealistic knights and their enemies, has killed countless honorable warriors. Taking a cue from the enemies of their faith, many good-aligned religions have established secretive orders of the most dedicated and hardened soldiers. But... isn't that the same as every class other than paladin? :smallconfused: Play a crusader and you can smite anyone, with no code.

[TheRinni]

I don't think the Kensai is what he's looking for.

The Shadowbane Inquisitor looks nice, but he doesn't meet the Sneak Attack requirement, and I can't see him spending the levels to dip into a sneaky class.

[Psyren]

Gray Guard is a pointless class. You fall for all the same things until the capstone, the only difference being that any Atonement you need is free for the caster. Well, NPC clerics don't care about XP costs anyway, and you don't even need the spell to atone.

So okay, you've made it through the 14 or so character levels required to reach Sacrament of True Faith. It says you have the same code of conduct as a paladin, just that it's more "flexible." What this means is anyone's guess. It's thus either a recipe for friction between the player and DM, or you have a lenient DM who won't make you fall at the drop of a hat - in which case you gave up half your caster levels for nothing.

You want a really badass paladin? Favored Soul -> Fist of Raziel. Drop in two levels of Paladin for Divine Grace and you're set.

[TheRinni]

Play a crusader and you can smite anyone, with no code.


Gray Guard is a pointless class. You fall for all the same things until the capstone, the only difference being that any Atonement you need is free for the caster. Well, NPC clerics don't care about XP costs anyway, and you don't even need the spell to atone.

So okay, you've made it through the 14 or so character levels required to reach Sacrament of True Faith. It says you have the same code of conduct as a paladin, just that it's more "flexible." What this means is anyone's guess. It's thus either a recipe for friction between the player and DM, or you have a lenient DM who won't make you fall at the drop of a hat - in which case you gave up half your caster levels for nothing.


While I find your comments interesting, they aren't particularly helpful, or informative in regards to the original question.

Is there a saint-like template, or prestige class, that would benefit a Grey Guard. Something in tune with the the feeling of the class.

[Toliudar]

Church Inquisitor from Complete Divine might suit the character well. The loss of BAB is relatively minor, and the immunities/abilities can really feed a badass flavour.

[Prime32]

While I find your comments interesting, they aren't particularly helpful, or informative in regards to the original question.

Is there a saint-like template, or prestige class, that would benefit a Grey Guard. Something in tune with the the feeling of the class.On the contrary, my suggestion was "everything". Taking levels in any class other than paladin would fit the fluff of someone who has become somewhat distanced from being a paladin. What does he want him to be able to do? Hit stuff hard? Burn enemies with holy light? Scare people? Any class can be badass, even a commoner.

And taking crusader levels would still benefit him. ToB is very multiclass-friendly, giving you abilities appropriate to the level you enter a class.

[Person_Man]

Most good Paladin prestige classes augment their Special Mount, which is their most powerful class feature. Grey Guard does not, so there's really not much point in going into one that does.

But Ordained Champion (Complete Champion) is fairly spiffy. You could also try some out of the box thinking like Incarnate or Crusader, which benefit from high hit dice.

[WinWin]

Doomlord. Planar Handbook. They are all about entropy. A Grey Guard/Doomlord would probably focus on moral decay and the dissolution of values. Understanding entropy makes them more resistant to it's effects. They're kind of like nihilists, but without the racism.

Still Lawful Good...Just no fun at parties.

[Jude_H]

Ronin is pretty close to the concept. It's normally a Samurai class, but it should work, and it has some nifty features.

Or Cleric of LAW and [whatever], possibly PrCing into Church Inquisitor.

[NamelessNPC]

If you allow pathfinder, the Hellknight is a class with awesome fluff. Basically you are commited to the expansion of civilization and combat against chaos. One warning though, its class features are pretty weak.

[JonestheSpy]

While I find your comments interesting, they aren't particularly helpful, or informative in regards to the original question.


Now just a minute here. Are you claiming that "I'm ignoring your question and instead telling you to play something from Tome of Battle" isn't the most helpful response possible whenever someone brings up a melee class? Because I find that hard to believe.

[TheRinni]

I looked at the Church Inquisitor before, and like it quite a bit. It plays along well "fluff" wise for what this character is aiming for. But doesn't it seem to be more of a Cleric PrC?

We occasionally allow Pathfinder with DM approval, but I'll be sure to mention it to the player in question.

I've never heard of Ronin before; am I correct to assume I can find it in Oriental Adventures?

I think a Crusader is a good match for the character, but I don't really see much "working towards it." After suggesting it to the player, he says he's looking more for some kind of goal for his character to achieve.

Thank you for all the help!


Now just a minute here. Are you claiming that "I'm ignoring your question and instead telling you to play something from Tome of Battle" isn't the most helpful response possible whenever someone brings up a melee class? Because I find that hard to believe.

I asked for suggestions on PrCs and Templates for a fellow player's specific character. A suggestion that involves replacing the current character, and the class he has chosen to take, is not helpful in the slightest.

Whether you find it hard to believe or not, is also unhelpful.

[Psyren]

Now just a minute here. Are you claiming that "I'm ignoring your question and instead telling you to play something from Tome of Battle" isn't the most helpful response possible whenever someone brings up a melee class? Because I find that hard to believe.

Well, from my side at least, I was just telling her that Gray Guard sucks without mentioning ToB at all. And my proposed build could beat the pants off any Crusader.

But Person_Man is also right - if you really want to be an effective paladin, a PrC that neglects the mount is unnecessarily limiting.

[TheRinni]

I would also like to point out that replacing the character, and that character's chosen levels, simply isn't possible in this campaign.

We're playing with a DM who very much despises character deaths. And, while you can force your character to commit suicide, it's more likely going to get you banned, rather than a second shot at character creation.

[Telonius]

I've never heard of Ronin before; am I correct to assume I can find it in Oriental Adventures?


Ronin is a prestige class in CWar. Not too bad; it does grant Sneak Attack, and it's full-BAB, so possibly an entry point into some of the other PrC's mentioned. The biggest problem is that it requires Bastard Sword proficiency. (That's the reason it's mainly a Samurai thing).

[Prime32]

I think a Crusader is a good match for the character, but I don't really see much "working towards it." After suggesting it to the player, he says he's looking more for some kind of goal for his character to achieve.

Thank you for all the help!:smallconfused: The player is the only one who works towards a class. The character has no concept of classes or the ability to set his sights on one (with a few exceptions, like wizard, though someone who studies in that direction could end up in a related class like beguiler). Classes simply represent the abilities he has.

Could you imagine the following?
Fighter: "I want to become the greatest warrior in the land!"
Rogue: "I want to become the richest guy in two lands."
Barbarian: "I want to restore my people to greatness."
Paladin: "I want to take two levels in Pious Templar."

[TheRinni]

:smallconfused: The player is the only one who works towards a class. The character has no concept of classes or the ability to set his sights on one (with a few exceptions, like wizard, though someone who studies in that direction could end up in a related class like beguiler). Classes simply represent the abilities he has.

Could you imagine the following?
Fighter: "I want to become the greatest warrior in the land!"
Rogue: "I want to become the richest guy in two lands."
Barbarian: "I want to restore my people to greatness."
Paladin: "I want to take two levels in Pious Templar."

... The player is playing a game, and he would find said game more enjoyable if he had a specific goal to work towards. This goal can be in the form of completing a "special" requirement to gain access to a prestige class, or fulfilling the right requirements for a Template. By your logic, a character should never set his sights on any class, because he simply doesn't know they exist.

Regardless, I have to say that I simply don't care. I'm looking for suggestions, and suggestions only. Not debates.

[Jude_H]

Ronin's basically a fallen Samurai (it works with Samurai like Blackguard does with Paladin, but it's not a bad fit for a Grey Guard). Its main mechanical draws are a built-in Shock Trooper ability and sneak attack dice. Unless you're trading Samurai levels down to Samurai <1,4>/Ronin 10, it's a 2-level class, but it might be useful for filler at least.


Another option might be the Hellreaver from Fiendish Codex 2. It's a charisma-based close combat fighter who gets so mad at evil things that he flips out and starts going kind of Hulk on them. It's more of a 'Good, regardless of Lawfulness' spinoff from Paladin than Grey Guard's 'Lawful, regardless of Goodness' thing, but it could also have some appeal. And even if a Hell Reaver falls as a Paladin, it'd still be about as competent as a GG until getting atonement.

Also, in the 'subversion of normal Paladinhood' vein, there's the Knight of the Sacred Seal from Tome of Magic. It's all about allowing extradimensional beings of dubious morality to inhabit the Paladin's soul.

[Psyren]

Also, in the 'subversion of normal Paladinhood' vein, there's the Knight of the Sacred Seal from Tome of Magic. It's all about allowing extradimensional beings of dubious morality to inhabit the Paladin's soul.

Actually I think you're on to something with this idea. Use of Vestiges wouldn't hurt a Paladin/Gray Guard, and even with just the Bind Vestige feats he could gain some nifty abilities. Naberius' Silver Tongue, for instance, combos beautifully with Unbound Justice - allowing your paladin to lie like a politician even with middling Charisma - and Malphas lets you use poison once you can guarantee not Falling for it. Leraje will make you pretty sneaky, and Savnok lets you throw on masterwork full-plate out of nowhere.

By using the adaptation (ToM 58) you can remove the actual soul binding requirement while keeping the other vestige-centric benefits of the class, like Vestige's Protection Aura and Vestige's Power. Or you can simply use a Binder dip.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If the player is looking for some motivation for his character to have to do something then maybe have him shoot for becoming a messenger of his god or something similar. How you represent that via crunch really doesn't matter.

I know you've already shot down the saint template, but there are some other options out there, especially refluffing some of the prestige classes in Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Telonius]

Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a)is another option. It's an option right up there with Ravages not actually being poisons, but it's an option! ;)

[Doc Roc]

yes
http://www.freewebs.com/delta187/Valis%20Grey%20Knight%20Statue.jpg

I wouldn't exactly characterize the Warp as a font of good and joy.