Two questions about Spellthieves

[Lui]

first one is straightforward enough: can a spellthief steal a divine spell?
I haven't found anything against it, but oddly enough the examples are all of arcane spells being stolen.

second one regards the master spellthief talent (complete scoundrel)
it says that the spellthief's and any other arcane spellcasting class' levels stack for the purpose of determining which is the level of spell the PC can steal.
the problem is that there's also a maximum number of stolen spell levels that can be possessed anytime (equals to class level). do they stack too?
if not does this mean that i can steal a spell but not use it? (so that the enemy lose it, at least. imagine a 1st level spellthief 9 lvl wizard if it helps)

thanks

[begooler]

1) Yes, they can steal divine spells

2) Add your levels in other arcane classes to your spellthief level. Memorize that number. Now go to the spellthief entry, and read the chart where it describes what levels of spells that you can steal and cast. Remember that number from a minute ago? Use that number when you look on the chart.

[Lui]

2) Add your levels in other arcane classes to your spellthief level. Memorize that number. Now go to the spellthief entry, and read the chart where it describes what levels of spells that you can steal and cast. Remember that number from a minute ago? Use that number when you look on the chart.[/QUOTE]

I'm referring to:
"At any one time, a spellthief can possess a maximum
number of stolen spell levels equal to his class level (treat
0-level spells as 1/2 level for this purpose).For instance, a
4th-level spellthief can have two stolen 2nd-level spells, or
one 2nd-level spell and two 1st-level spells, or any other combination of 0-level,1-st level, and 2nd-level spells totaling four levels. If he steals a spell that would cause
him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen
spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell
levels to no more than his maximum."

are you sure spellthief's and mage's levels stack for this too? (just want to be sure)
thank you very much

[Elric VIII]

are you sure spellthief's and mage's levels stack for this too? (just want to be sure)
thank you very much

The feat does not explicitly state it, so you technically can only hold spells based on actual Spellthief levels. However, I would be willing to bet that this is a similar oversight as Monks not being proficient with unarmed strikes. It isn't unreasonable to houserule it to work the way you want.

[begooler]

Yes, like Elric says.
When they outline stealing spells, there is no way to steal a spell that isn't a level you can 'cast' (cast by virtue of stealing that is.) You're pretty safe to assume that if the spell is a level you can steal, you can also then hold it and later cast it. It's all one process.
By the way, with or without the feat Master Spellthief, you can't steal a spell that's a higher level than what you can hold and cast. For example, if you are a 2nd level spellthief, you can't cause a caster to lose a 4th level spell.
Also, my bad, there's no 'chart.' It's half your spellthief level.

[dextercorvia]

You can steal a spell that you couldn't cast if you were holding stolen spells already close enough to your capacity. There is text for what happens when you steal a spell that you can't hold.

[begooler]

Yeah, but that text doesn't say anything like "If you choose not to lose stored spells to make room for the spell you're trying to steal then the caster still loses the spell slot."
Either you successfully steal it and hold it, or you don't steal it at all. There's no stealing the spell out of the caster's pocket and then throwing it on the ground because you don't have room for it.

Therefore the feat only works if you assume that your levels stack for purposes of determining spells you can steal and hold. Otherwise, they might as well not stack at all, since you can't steal spells that you can't hold.

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, but that text doesn't say anything like "If you choose not to lose stored spells to make room for the spell you're trying to steal then the caster still loses the spell slot."
Either you successfully steal it and hold it, or you don't steal it at all. There's no stealing the spell out of the caster's pocket and then throwing it on the ground because you don't have room for it.

Therefore the feat only works if you assume that your levels stack for purposes of determining spells you can steal and hold. Otherwise, they might as well not stack at all, since you can't steal spells that you can't hold.


If he steals a spell that would cause him to exceed this limit, he must choose to lose stolen spells sufficient to reduce his total number of stolen spell levels to no more than his maximum.

Note that this doesn't come into play until he has successfully stolen a spell. Therefore, the most recently stolen spell can be lost.

[Diarmuid]

I'm of the mind that Dex has the right of it.

Just because the feat doesnt say you cant, doesnt mean you can. My spellthief 2/ Sorc 4 can steal up to 3rd level spells, but he'd have to immediately discard any such 3rd level spell he stole as he can only store 2 spell levels.

[Lui]

do you think it would be appropriate to create a talent to consider your spellthief level as 4 lev higher for this purpose only, then?

[Elric VIII]

do you think it would be appropriate to create a talent to consider your spellthief level as 4 lev higher for this purpose only, then?

That would be reasonable, but I think it would also be reasonable to have the Master Spellthief feat stack your levels for spells that you can steal.

[Lui]

yes it probably would, but I wondered if they did it on purpose, considering that every wizard would be able to steal an enemy's spells with only a spellthief level and a talent otherwise.
he has to succed in a sneak attack, but that can be made with a low level spell as a swift action, and he could even use a ranged touch spell for the attack. dunno if that would be fair in a mage duel. i admit i'm still undecided tough

[dextercorvia]

That would be reasonable, but I think it would also be reasonable to have the Master Spellthief feat stack your levels for spells that you can steal.

The feat already allows you to cast in light armor, stack your arcane class levels to determine CL, and deprive enemy casters of higher level spells if you sneak attack them. Is improving this feat really necessary? It's rather like saying, "Shock Trooper shouldn't reduce your AC below X."

[Diarmuid]

+1 Dex.

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