Help Me Win Using The Dragon Shaman

[Gorfang113]

Right, so me and my friend got into an argument over which is better, Dragon Shaman or Dragonfire Adept. To settle it we are having a duel between the two classes. Im on the side of Dragon Shaman. We should end being ECL 20 and with all class levels being in our chosen class. We have 250,000 gp to spend, and starting stats of 18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10. The build should not be made to go for the other class specificly, but we can rule out what it doesnt need to fight based on the opposite class. So help me win this duel and prove who is the better dragon follower.
Edit: btw, I have untill 8pm tomarrow.

[*.*.*.*]

DFA IS better, your friend is right.

[mootoall]

Yup, Dragonfire Adept wins. Its invocations beat your auras, and its breath weapon is better, especially since it can debuff.

[Lord Loss]

Unless you optimize like a madman and your friend doesn't the Dragon Shaman is going to get crushed. First of all it's a very bad class and combat isn't it's strong side. It's like pitting the Bard against the Fighter. They're both useful party members, but the Bard isn't built for one on one combat.

[Amnestic]

Your friend is the winner, especially if he happens to go Evil. Fivefold Breath? Hold me closer, oh dark mistress!

[mootoall]

Unless you optimize like a madman and your friend doesn't the Dragon Shaman is going to get crushed. First of all it's a very bad class and combat isn't it's strong side. It's like pitting the Bard against the Fighter. They're both useful party members, but the Bard isn't built for one on one combat.

Bard wins that fight, actually. Yes, spells are that good. Also, they're better at melee combat with things like Snowflake Wardance. So ... bad example, but you're right.

[MeeposFire]

The DFA is better though a duel is not really its strong suit. DFAs best advantage is strong battlefield control in mass quantities. Plus the DFA can also get your aura for a feat and his breathweapon his hands down better.

[mootoall]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

[tyckspoon]

Mate, I hate to say it, but yer boned. You might pull something out by careful and clever application of wealth. Otherwise? By weight of class features, the DFA has you beat everywhere. The biggest advantage you have is that your breath weapon qualifies for metabreath feats, so you can make it be a Heightened Maximized Clinging breath that deals full damage on first hit with a DC 40-some save and then does repeating damage for the next 10 rounds.. the problem is you won't get enough damage to one-shot him, and when his turn comes around he can just Energy Immunity to your breath type. And then you're screwed.

[mootoall]

Mate, I hate to say it, but yer boned. You might pull something out by careful and clever application of wealth. Otherwise? By weight of class features, the DFA has you beat everywhere. The biggest advantage you have is that your breath weapon qualifies for metabreath feats, so you can make it be a Heightened Maximized Clinging breath that deals full damage on first hit with a DC 40-some save and then does repeating damage for the next 10 rounds.. the problem is you won't get enough damage to one-shot him, and when his turn comes around he can just Energy Immunity to your breath type. And then you're screwed.

Gah, beat me to it, I just remembered DS breath weapon got metabreath feat access. Still, you've also covered the response to it. You didn't, however, mention how the DFA can get its breath weapon cheesed to get metabreath feats as well. And have other class features to use while it's recharging.

[Psyren]

DFA IS better, your friend is right.

I love when a thread can be wrapped up on the second post

[MeeposFire]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

What item is that by the way?

[Flickerdart]

Incidentally, the wealth you're using for the duel is about a third of what you should actually have by that level. Any reason why?

[mootoall]

What item is that by the way?

Some sort of Carapace of Something. It's the analogue to the Chasubel of Fell Power for the Warlock. Except there's no Greater version. Which makes me angry.

[Amnestic]

What item is that by the way?

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

[Gorfang113]

Well this is optimistic... I will just take the metabreath feats and hope for him to screw up or for me to get lucky. The metabreath feats are all in dragonomicon, right?

[MeeposFire]

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

Wait doesn't that work with any breath weapon though?

[mootoall]

There's the Dragon Spirit Cincture, a cheap belt item which adds 1d6 to your breath weapon damage, and gives you a +1 on the DC if you wield a weapon with the same energy type. The obvious answer, therefore, is to grab a/some daggers with Least Energy Assault Weapon Crystals inside, which work just fine. All in all, tiny investment for decent boon to your primary weapon.

Ah, yes, that one. Actually, the most efficient way to do it is +1 arrows with least energy assault weapon crystals. Cheaper, and you're not actually fighting with it, so weilding it as a improvised melee weapon doesn't matter.

[tyckspoon]

Ah, yes, that one. Actually, the most efficient way to do it is +1 arrows with least energy assault weapon crystals. Cheaper, and you're not actually fighting with it, so weilding it as a improvised melee weapon doesn't matter.

A dragoncraft dagger/sword/whatever also works if you prefer something that doesn't make your DM want to smack you for abusing the ammo crafting rules- dragoncraft weapons do 1 point of damage of whatever energy type the source dragon breathed.

Edit: And a Least crystal only requires Masterwork quality, so if you're not planning to actually hit anything with 'em those arrows don't even need the enhancement. If you're gonna suggest something for the sake of cheesy efficiency, be efficient!

[mootoall]

A dragoncraft dagger/sword/whatever also works if you prefer something that doesn't make your DM want to smack you for abusing the ammo crafting rules- dragoncraft weapons do 1 point of damage of whatever energy type the source dragon breathed.

Edit: And a Least crystal only requires Masterwork quality, so if you're not planning to actually hit anything with 'em those arrows don't even need the enhancement. If you're gonna suggest something for the sake of cheesy efficiency, be efficient!

Heh, didn't know that, thought they needed the enhancement bonus. I'll read up better next time :smalltongue:

[Amnestic]

Wait doesn't that work with any breath weapon though?

I believe so, yes. Less useful for most others though, since they use their Breath Weapon less, so the investment is used less.


Well this is optimistic... I will just take the metabreath feats and hope for him to screw up or for me to get lucky. The metabreath feats are all in dragonomicon, right?

Of course you have to worry about him taking breath weapon feats - easily accomplished by either going Dragonborn or taking the Power Surge feat (Dragon...314?). It's not as if the DFA really needs to spend his feats on anything else once he has Entangling Exhalation.

[Prime32]

Dragon shamans are more useful for supporting armies of low-level soldiers than fighting one-on-one. And their auras can be replicated with feats anyway.

[Kefkafreak]

Why would a duel show which class is better? If a character has an aura that adds +50 damage to every party member but him, he's doing more damage than the party's Fighter, but he couldn't win against him 1 on 1.

[FMArthur]

Yeah, but Dragon Shaman auras are bad regardless. The best you can get is capped fast healing for out-of-combat healing that everyone should have prepared to do anyway.

[slaydemons]

Not to mention the DFA actually got (wait for it) splat support! The MIC has at least one item just for them.

sorry what what?

DRAGON SPIRIT
AMULET
Price (Item Level): 2,000 gp (6th)
Body Slot: Throat
Caster Level: 9th
Aura: Moderate; (DC 19) transmutation
Activation: Swift (command)
Weight: —
This necklace features a large, clear crystal set
in silver, and the silhouette of a dragon has
been etched onto it.
Prized by dragon shamans (PH2 11), basically 3 times a day double aura size for a round

you mean just like dragon shaman?

I just realized was talking about dragon disciple bah I am an idiot

[mootoall]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dragon Shaman was meant to be an NPC "Marshall" class. Then again, I'm also convinced the Paladin, or anything else with "X per day" abilities where X is less than 3. Edit: I send a "What?" right back to you, sir. Since when is DFA not a 20 level class in Dragon Magic? Though I'll concede I wasn't aware of the DS item. Although a DFA can still get all the good DS auras by feats, and benefit from the item too ...

[slaydemons]

I send a "What?" right back to you, sir. Since when is DFA not a 20 level class in Dragon Magic? Though I'll concede I wasn't aware of the DS item. Although a DFA can still get all the good DS auras by feats, and benefit from the item too ...

made a mistake ,dragon disciple, lot of breathing classes sorry my bad

edit 1: note to self check to see if breath weapons stack and don't confuse dragonfire adept with dragon disciple again you look like an idiot

[golem1972]

Dfa's are best at debuffing, and then blasting. They should also have high mobility.
I suggest that you make yourself immune to the debuffs and immune or highly resistant to the blasting. A warforged or undead will be resistant to most of the debuffs. There's a ring that gives you the half dragon template (white), ask your dm if you can get different flavors (black and blue). Mantle of icy soul and the fire version are expensive but give you fire and cold subtypes. Ring of freedom of movement or several castings of heary of water will protect you from entangle. Mind blank, armor with proof against transmutation, blindfold of true dark, and decent saves should make you immune to most of what he can do to you.

He's got a lot of defenses against your breath weapon built in, so I would mostly ignore it. Pick up entangling exhalation if you think you must (just to show you can without having to jump through hoops). Buff dex, str, then con and wis. Get a good bow and endless quiver. Spend some feats and magic items to make yourself decent at archery. True strike plus manyshot isn't a bad combo. A +5 splitting dragonbane bow should do the trick. Get hanks bow from the wizards website if you can.

I know all of this is more than 250k, I am going with normal wbl.

[tyckspoon]

Dfa's are best at debuffing, and then blasting. They should also have high mobility.
I suggest that you make yourself immune to the debuffs and immune or highly resistant to the blasting. A warforged or undead will be resistant to most of the debuffs. There's a ring that gives you the half dragon template (white), ask your dm if you can get different flavors (black and blue). Mantle of icy soul and the fire version are expensive but give you fire and cold subtypes. Ring of freedom of movement or several castings of heary of water will protect you from entangle. Mind blank, armor with proof against transmutation, blindfold of true dark, and decent saves should make you immune to most of what he can do to you.


and then he just blitzes you with alternate uses of Thunder Breath (sonic!) and the special Bahamut breath (untyped) anyway.

[mootoall]

Yeah, WBL can do pretty well against the DFA ... if you want to be immune to all energy damage types. At which point you still have to deal with Invocations. Good luck with those.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, this is gonna get pretty interesting.

You're actually immune to a lot of things the DFA can do. You get energy immunity of choice, which can hamper his breath choices, immune to sleep and paralysis (two of the save or lose breaths), and can heal yourself.

My suggestion: Pick up a Ring of Evasion, and boost your Reflex save. All the breaths that do damage are Reflex save for half. With Ring of Evasion, you're ignoring his damage. Wade in and beat down.

[mootoall]

Still doesn't deal with Invocations. Since your (Su) abilities are all garbage you might benefit from an item of Shaped Anti-Magic Field.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Still doesn't deal with Invocations. Since your (Su) abilities are all garbage you might benefit from an item of Shaped Anti-Magic Field.

DFA invocations suck. None of the least invocations can hurt you. You are immune to Frightful Presence by virtue of being the same HD as he is. You aren't buffing, so Voracious Dispelling is worthless to him. Seeing invisible is pathetically easy, so just make sure you have a toy or something (or better yet, just get Tremorsense and be done with it), which knocks out the Lesser invocations. Aura of Flame is countered by Energy Resistance. Chilling Fog would be dangerous if you didn't have a Ring of Freedom of Movement. The rest of the Greater invocations are no threat to you.

The only Dark invocation you have to worry about is Instill Vulnerability, which offers a Fort save, and all your abilities are Con based. Big flippin' deal.

So again, no, the invocations don't really do anything for him against you.

[Retech]

You can still win with other forms of cheese, right?

Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobold, maybe? Only LA +1 that can be bought off, giving you huge ability score bonuses (especially mental), level 5 wizard casting, and plenty of immunities.

Also, does anyone know if Pathfinder is also backwards compatible to 3.5? There are some things there that synergize really well.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You can always spec intimidate plus Imperious Command to lock him down...

[Retech]

I am not particularly versed in these classes, but are they primarily casters or martial?

[hamishspence]

Dragon Shaman is more support- it's auras benefit other classes, and it can heal to a limited degree. It has a breath weapon- but that's fairly weak (1d4 round recharge time).

Adept is, like the Warlock, an "at will" caster, but with few, less powerful, "spells" called invocations.

[Retech]

Okay, that's good then. If Pathfinder is indeed backward compatible, then take the new antagonize feat and pump intimidate/diplomacy. The DC is incredibly easy (like 25 for the highest levels you'll face), and forces the enemy to make a MELEE attack against you.

Seems pretty easy to break after that.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Also, another tip...Dragon Shaman is not a great melee fighter....it's really a (sup-par) team support class. So, my tip? Don't try to do something you don't excel at( one on one combat) and play to your classes' strengths...that means you need a "team" to support. You did not say leadership, summoning and other minion-obtaining stuff was banned nor did you say that you could not bring minions to the fight with you, so your best option is to focus on your classes' strengths by obtaining some minions to improve. How do you do that? Well, there are several ways.

A) Summons, but you'd have to be a caster or one of those werid PrCs with their own spell lists or something, so don't bother with this unless your allows to take most of your levels in a caster class.

B) Leadership- One of the better ways to do this for you. Boost Cha. Get lots of followers. Pick up Extra Followers, that cohort improvement feat and any other feats that make you awesome at leadership. Take the Legendary Leader PrC for even more leadership boosts. Get social skills and boost them. Perhaps take a level or two of martial for more auras or perhaps some levels of crusader or another TOB class with acssess to white raven for some "leaderly" manuvers to boost your flunkies. Or take martial study to get what you want. Focus your build on getting a lot of minions and using your auras and leader-ish powers to boost their effectiveness. Make your cohort a caster of some kind as well, for added power, and make your stronger followers casters of some kind as well. Clerics would be best here due to your auras helping melee fighters the most, though you may want to have a wizard or two in reserve as well. with a bunch of clericzillas boosted by your powers you should be able to crush the DFA with ease, espcially since one will be level 19 due to that cohort improvement feat.

[Retech]

And with leadership, get a buncha level 18 Venerable Loredrake White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobolds. Actually, your followers could be various low level venerable loredrake white dragonspawn abomination kobolds, giving you several HUNDRED LEVEL 5 WIZARDS, that can all cast grease or something at the opponent.

If Fell Drain stacks negative levels, maybe you could give them all sonic snap + fell drain + improved initiative + insane dexterity leading to hundred of negative levels = wightopocalypse

[mootoall]

I'm pretty sure that Baleful Geass would still be effective, unless Mind Blank is in play. Given the wealth of the characters, it probably isn't if you have all of the other ones. Also, just by the by, whatever WBL shenanigans the DS pulls off are equally pull off-able by the DFA, so such suggestions are less a "Is one class better" measure than a "How can I tweak WBL" measure. Remember, a Skillful weapon makes the DFA just as good at weapon based combat as the DS! Edit: Oh, and VD can beat gear.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm pretty sure that Baleful Geass would still be effective, unless Mind Blank is in play. Given the wealth of the characters, it probably isn't if you have all of the other ones. Also, just by the by, whatever WBL shenanigans the DS pulls off are equally pull off-able by the DFA, so such suggestions are less a "Is one class better" measure than a "How can I tweak WBL" measure. Remember, a Skillful weapon makes the DFA just as good at weapon based combat as the DS! Edit: Oh, and VD can beat gear.

Baleful Geas targets your strongest save... good luck with that. VD also requires you make a CL check vs the item's CL, with a cap of +10 on your check... good luck with that as well. And it's only suppressed for 1d4 rounds... so not as effective as you might think.

The problem is that the Dragon Shaman can say 'no' to anything the DFA can do, he can't really do anything in return. It'll be a long and drawn-out slugfest without WBL shenanigans deciding the bout.

[Hiro Protagonest]

A one-on-one duel is a bad way to test a class's abilities. Have it be a series of challenges, like in one they're leaders of warbands that fight each other, in the next they have to do the one-on-one duel, in the next they have to defeat multiple opponents by themselves (not together, but two separate encounters), etc.

[Amnestic]

I'm pretty sure that Baleful Geass would still be effective, unless Mind Blank is in play.

Unless the DM happens to rule it's a 10 minute cast.


Baleful Geas targets your strongest save...

Baleful Geas doesn't target a save. It acts 'otherwise as the geas/quest spell' which has: Saving Throw: None

[mootoall]

To shut the DFA down you're suggesting immunity to all types of damage (you get one from class), Freedom of Movement and Mind Blank. All permanent, meaning from items. Suppression for one round, even, and remember VD does damage too, opens the DS up to a Fivefold Breath of Tiamat. Or, if he's Good, untyped damage without the Voracious Dispelling. Either way, what's the CL of any of those items? Low enough that I'd wager an average roll would be able to beat them with a +10 modifier.

[Prime32]

B) Leadership- One of the better ways to do this for you. Boost Cha. Get lots of followers. Pick up Extra Followers, that cohort improvement feat and any other feats that make you awesome at leadership. Take the Legendary Leader PrC for even more leadership boosts. Get social skills and boost them. Perhaps take a level or two of martial for more auras or perhaps some levels of crusader or another TOB class with acssess to white raven for some "leaderly" manuvers to boost your flunkies. Or take martial study to get what you want. Focus your build on getting a lot of minions and using your auras and leader-ish powers to boost their effectiveness. Make your cohort a caster of some kind as well, for added power, and make your stronger followers casters of some kind as well. Clerics would be best here due to your auras helping melee fighters the most, though you may want to have a wizard or two in reserve as well. with a bunch of clericzillas boosted by your powers you should be able to crush the DFA with ease, espcially since one will be level 19 due to that cohort improvement feat.Also look up the teamwork benefits in PHB2 and DMG2. Massed archery can be scary.

[tyckspoon]

The problem is that the Dragon Shaman can say 'no' to anything the DFA can do, he can't really do anything in return. It'll be a long and drawn-out slugfest without WBL shenanigans deciding the bout.

Thunder Breath/Force Breath/Discorporating Breath of Bahamut. I don't think there's a way for the Dragon Shaman to become immune to Force/Typeless damage, and Sonic is pretty hard to come by unless you specifically remember to think about acquiring an item of Silence (or just pay out for Greater Sonic Resistance armor.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thunder Breath/Force Breath/Discorporating Breath of Bahamut. I don't think there's a way for the Dragon Shaman to become immune to Force/Typeless damage, and Sonic is pretty hard to come by unless you specifically remember to think about acquiring an item of Silence (or just pay out for Greater Sonic Resistance armor.)

Fivefold breath is easily defeated by Evasion. No one takes DBoB because everyone takes Fivefold breath. Thunder Breath is negated by Evasion. No one takes Force Breath because everyone takes Fivefold Breath.

You were saying?

[Amnestic]

Fivefold breath is easily defeated by Evasion. No one takes DBoB because everyone takes Fivefold breath. Thunder Breath is negated by Evasion. No one takes Force Breath because everyone takes Fivefold Breath.

You were saying?

If you're straightclassed, you can have Force Breath and Fivefold. You have access to two 15th level Breath Effects by 20th level, one at 15th, and one at 20th.

[tyckspoon]

Fivefold breath is easily defeated by Evasion. No one takes DBoB because everyone takes Fivefold breath. Thunder Breath is negated by Evasion. No one takes Force Breath because everyone takes Fivefold Breath.

You were saying?
Easily defeated by evasion? Just how high are you proposing the Shaman's reflex save is going to be, and perhaps more importantly, what defense would you have him neglect on the way to getting it up there? Assume a DC 33 from the DFA (20 base from class levels, +10 Con mod, +2 Ability Focus, +1 Dragon Spirit Cincture.)

@Dragon Shaman player: As I think about it, your best bet is outlasting him. Neither Shamans nor Adepts are very good at burst damage, but you do have significantly more durability available to you with your higher HD, pool of healing, and Fast Healing aura. So get a good ranged weapon, invest some stats and feats in it, and trade him shots for breath attacks- he'll go down first if you achieve any half-way decent hit rate.

[Amnestic]

@Dragon Shaman player: As I think about it, your best bet is outlasting him. Neither Shamans nor Adepts are very good at burst damage, but you do have significantly more durability available to you with your higher HD, pool of healing, and Fast Healing aura. So get a good ranged weapon, invest some stats and feats in it, and trade him shots for breath attacks- he'll go down first if you achieve any half-way decent hit rate.

DFA can refresh his healthpool pretty much constantly with Draconic Toughness, and can arguably gain the exact same Fast Healing Aura as the Dragon Shaman via feats.

[Jude_H]

I'm not very familiar with either class, but I don't remember DFAs having anything like Mirror Image or Displacement to make them unchargeable.

You might be able to work Shape Soulmeld (Claws of the Wyrm), the Complete Adventurer pounce gloves (Claws of the Panther?), Shock Trooper, a Dive attack and a Sudden Stunning Necklace of Natural Attacks into a workable melee platform. With one of the stealthy dragon totems and maxed hide/move silent ranks, you might catch him off-guard. Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment) for the Travel domain ability might be worthwhile if you can't afford an item of FoM.

Don't bother speccing the breath weapon. It doesn't do a lot of damage, resistances are common and feat slots are precious.

Another approach could be abusing Dragon Cohort alongside Spirited Charge. You might be somewhat justified in that DSs are A) dragon-y and B) a support class and that DC provides A) a dragon and B) something to support.

And if you're just in a 1-off fight at level 20, Devotion feats could be worth feats, even without Turn attempts. Animal and Travel Devotions are probably the most relavent. That would kind of work against the spirit of a general purpose DS though, unless you're assuming a nova/narcolepsy party.

[tyckspoon]

DFA can refresh his healthpool pretty much constantly with Draconic Toughness, and can arguably gain the exact same Fast Healing Aura as the Dragon Shaman via feats.

If you can't gain against 20 HP/turn at level 20 with basically anything you've got much bigger build problems than just how poor Dragon Shaman is.. and hey, if the DFA wants to waste his valuable standard actions trying to delay your inevitable victory by refreshing Toughness? That's quite alright.

[Amnestic]

If you can't gain against 20 HP/turn at level 20 with basically anything you've got much bigger build problems than just how poor Dragon Shaman is.. and hey, if the DFA wants to waste his valuable standard actions trying to delay your inevitable victory by refreshing Toughness? That's quite alright.

*shrug* Dragon Shaman still needs to catch him. Easier with a ranged attack, mind, but the DFA isn't exactly using those move actions for anything else, and with 60' (minimum) perfect flight, the DFA's not exactly the worst mover in the world.

Doesn't negate the whole "I can use the exact same aura as your primary class feature" thing though.

Edit: Or for that matter, 30' burrow, just for kicks and giggles. :smallcool:

[tyckspoon]

The Adept also has to get within 120 feet of you to use a breath attack, or a mere 60 feet for a cone shape. That pretty much ensures he's going to be inside 1 range category of any weapon worth using. Somewhat of an annoyance if you want to melee him, because you have to invest in decent flight of your own, but not a big worry if you're trading off ranged attacks.

[Thurbane]

Grab yourself a Stunning Surge (DMG2) weapon - it targets the DFAs weakest save (Ref), and if he fails, stunned for 2-5 rounds basically = death in a duel like this. Pump your CHA to boost the DC, and maybe even take the Binding feats and grab Aura of Sadness (-2 to saves for adjacent creatures). Then ivest in some feats and items to boost your attack roll.

As others have pointed out, though, it's almost become a battle of WBL at this point.

[Morph Bark]

And with leadership, get a buncha level 18 Venerable Loredrake White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobolds. Actually, your followers could be various low level venerable loredrake white dragonspawn abomination kobolds, giving you several HUNDRED LEVEL 5 WIZARDS, that can all cast grease or something at the opponent.

If Fell Drain stacks negative levels, maybe you could give them all sonic snap + fell drain + improved initiative + insane dexterity leading to hundred of negative levels = wightopocalypse

Except that the only level of followers that ever surpasses 100 in amount pre-epic is level 1 for a maximum of 135 followers. If Leadership is even allowed here (if so, what the heck DM?) he'd have 26 venerable loredrake white dragonspawn abomination kobolds tops, most of which are level 1.

[Retech]

26 Venerable Loredrake Spellhoarding Rite White Dragonspawn Abomination Kobolds = 26 creatures with level 6 wizard spellcasting

Now I know it's a level 20 duel, but 26 level 6 wizards are REALLY useful.

Edit: And 135 Venerable Loredrake Spellhoarding Rite Kobolds (not Dragonspawn Abominations) = 135 creatures with level 3 wizard spellcasting, nothing to wag a finger at

[mootoall]

By my estimation, the duel's happened by now. Any news on how it went?

[Gorfang113]

By my estimation, the duel's happened by now. Any news on how it went?

Oddly actually. Basicly he showed up (we were doing other things, we were just gonna resolve it then) and said that he had looked over both classes, (somehow) come to the conclusion that DS is better (???) and called it off because he believed that he would be butchered (again, ???) and proclaimed me winner. It was strange to say the least. Thanks for the advice though.

Edit: For reference I am the DM btw.

[mootoall]

Wow. That's ... confusing. Would you like to have the duel anyway? I wouldn't mind building a quick DFA 20.