Great Cleave, Spring Attack, Whirlwind

[ExemplarofAvg]

Does it work out to be a tornado of death like I imagine it to be?
To me here's how it would work. I move towards the baddies a la Spring Attack, I Whirlwind, things die, I get a cleave against one target (repeat for infinite loop if it happens), I finish my move away from them.. Is that right? it doesn't feel that it works that way but for some reason I think it does. I know Whirlwind is a Full-Attack Action and Spring Attack is just a regular attack, I think I may have just answered my own question, meaning I have two possible moves either the cleaving spring or the death tornado from Whirlwind and Greater Cleave.

[tyckspoon]

2 things that stop you: the action incompatibility that you've already noticed, and..
Whirlwind Attack specifically denies the use of Cleave or anything else that gives you bonus attacks. So. Yeah, it doesn't work.

Edit: Note, it actually used to work- the change was one of the balance moves made in 3.5 to close off an exploit. The idea was to carry around a bunch of small easy to kill things- a bag full of rats or chickens or similar. You would Whirlwind Attack, hit and kill your bag of sacrificial animals, and then Great Cleave from them onto the target you actually wanted to kill.

[kharmakazy]

I was not aware that you couldn't cleave off of a whirlwind attack, I thought that was how that worked... shrug. Gotta go read that. How's about mithral tornado type manuevers? :smallfurious:

Edit: Looks like you can cleave and great cleave off of mithral tornado. :smallcool:

[ExemplarofAvg]

mithral tornado. :smallcool:

I'm guessing ToB?
Hmm, Losing Whirlwind Attack (and Combat Expertise) frees up two feats, mayhaps I should aim to get these. However the build is pretty much full up,
Human Fighter (Stock Concept Character)
Great Cleave line
Spring Attack line (Whirlwind is a Branch off)
Weapon Focus/Specialization line

Basically a Blender with an insert "x" melee weapon here clause.

Mayhaps my DM will be too busy dealing with the other players to notice this.. I mean I'mhardly OP if I become a blade tornado, and I will know the rules rather than the Knight Challenging Wrestling Warforged our Group has, or the "you wake up/walk into a bar/begin your quest/enter combat/sit there and pick your nose" "I HIDE" Shadowdancer or the death-dealer... Optimizes to a T, it's very frightening.

[Flickerdart]

Psionic Weapon Master lets you Whirlwind as a standard action, and Flyby Attack lets you take a standard action instead of an attack action during your move. Mix and serve chilled.

[Thurbane]

FWIW, Great Cleave & Whirlwind Attack are an awesome combo in the ToEE CRPG - which allows them to work together. Especially useful when you get "the sword that never misses" Fragarach.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Is ToB banned in your game? Because mithral tornado is whirlwind attack as a standard action, and adamantine hurricane is a double whirlwind attack as a standard action.

[ExemplarofAvg]

Is ToB banned in your game? Because mithral tornado is whirlwind attack as a standard action, and adamantine hurricane is a double whirlwind attack as a standard action.

No, I just don't know anything about it, and I'd like to be the simple players in my group compared to the others.

The main Concept is a Scythe or Twin Sickle Build, Twin Sickles is if I drop Whirlwind. Which offers some still nice damage potential.

[FMArthur]

There is the "bag of rats" combo with Whirlwind and Great Cleave, though:
basically, you dump out a bunch of critters. Could be rats, puppies, bunnies, chickens, whatever. Then, you whirlwind and attack each of them. They all die in one hit, and you use it to cleave at your enemies as many times as the number of critters you dumped. It gets stupid (okay, it starts stupid, but it gets stupider) when you use the Chicken Infested flaw to flood the area of your reach with chickens with free actions.

[Flickerdart]

There is the "bag of rats" combo with Whirlwind and Great Cleave, though:
basically, you dump out a bunch of critters. Could be rats, puppies, bunnies, chickens, whatever. Then, you whirlwind and attack each of them. They all die in one hit, and you use it to cleave at your enemies as many times as the number of critters you dumped. It gets stupid (okay, it starts stupid, but it gets stupider) when you use the Chicken Infested flaw to flood the area of your reach with chickens with free actions.
"When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities."

[darksolitaire]

Psionic Weapon Master lets you Whirlwind as a standard action, and Flyby Attack lets you take a standard action instead of an attack action during your move. Mix and serve chilled.

And if you're not into psionic nonsense, there is a mundane Weapon Master (Kensai, sword-saint) in oriental adventures, which can be entered level earlier and doesn't force you to be psychic warrior.

Edit: and Dragon 343 has nice feat for you, Improved Whirlwind Attack, giving you iterative attacks.

[WinWin]

What you need is Supreme Cleave (the ability to move between great cleaves) on a super charger chassis. Combine with a reach weapon and you're pretty much Lu Bu (only not as cool).

[faceroll]

What you need is Supreme Cleave (the ability to move between great cleaves) on a super charger chassis. Combine with a reach weapon and you're pretty much Lu Bu (only not as cool).

Supreme cleave lets you take a 5 foot step between cleaves. You need some way to get extra 5 foot steps.

[kharmakazy]

FWIW, Great Cleave & Whirlwind Attack are an awesome combo in the ToEE CRPG - which allows them to work together. Especially useful when you get "the sword that never misses" Fragarach.

THIS is exactly why I still think that. I played that game into the dirt, discovered and published an easter egg, and made one of the more popular trainers. Whirlwind attack + great cleave + the answerer was cool as hell.:smallcool:

[gomipile]

Something that does work is flight+pounce+whirlwind attack.

[Teron]

There is the "bag of rats" combo with Whirlwind and Great Cleave, though:
basically, you dump out a bunch of critters. Could be rats, puppies, bunnies, chickens, whatever. Then, you whirlwind and attack each of them. They all die in one hit, and you use it to cleave at your enemies as many times as the number of critters you dumped. It gets stupid (okay, it starts stupid, but it gets stupider) when you use the Chicken Infested flaw to flood the area of your reach with chickens with free actions.
You can actually make this work in a more limited fashion with Combat Reflexes. Assuming the rats don't just sit where they land when you dump out the bag, you can cleave off of the AoOs they provoke. Not as many attacks as you could get with the original trick, but on the bright side it doesn't take a full round action.

[WinWin]

Supreme cleave lets you take a 5 foot step between cleaves. You need some way to get extra 5 foot steps.

You mean Lu Bu is not a Warblade?

Wolf Pack Tactics (Tiger Claw 8). Sparring Dummy of the Master (A&EG), requires UMD, will grant 10' steps. Oriental Adventures allows this to be doubled (or additional 5 feet) with a DC:40 Tumble check. No limit on 20' steps taken in a round other than successful attacks.

Find a way to combine this with battle jump and pounce...Makes Whirlwind look like a waste of time (even moreso).

For luls you may as well take Robilars Gambit as well. Helps set you up for the following rounds charge.

[Person_Man]

Binder can get Whirlwind Attack and Dance of Death at 3rd level via the Paimon vestige. Totemist can get the similarly useful at low levels but useless at mid levels Trample ability at 2nd level via the Gorgon Mask soulmeld. But in general, it's almost never worth taking the actual feats.

[Thurbane]

Yes, Binder is great if you really want Whirlwind Attack...if you go Binder 4, you can use the bonus feat to buy the required feat to get Paimon.

[faceroll]

You mean Lu Bu is not a Warblade?

Wolf Pack Tactics (Tiger Claw 8). Sparring Dummy of the Master (A&EG), requires UMD, will grant 10' steps. Oriental Adventures allows this to be doubled (or additional 5 feet) with a DC:40 Tumble check. No limit on 20' steps taken in a round other than successful attacks.

Find a way to combine this with battle jump and pounce...Makes Whirlwind look like a waste of time (even moreso).

For luls you may as well take Robilars Gambit as well. Helps set you up for the following rounds charge.

Supreme Cleave lets you take a 5' step between cleave attempts, not make DC 40 tumble checks to adjust yourself. I mean Wolf Pack Tactics might do it for you, but not Supreme Cleave.

[WinWin]

Supreme Cleave lets you take a 5' step between cleave attempts, not make DC 40 tumble checks to adjust yourself. I mean Wolf Pack Tactics might do it for you, but not Supreme Cleave.

Supreme cleave allows a 5' step between cleave attempts.

Wolf Pack Tactics grants additional 5' steps for every successfull attack.

Sparring Dummies and the advanced tumble rules from Oriental Aventures allow 5' steps to be modified into 10' steps (with wierd stacking).

As long as opponents keep dropping, you keep moving. The extra movement from your '5 foot' steps just helps get within reach of more targets.

[faceroll]

Supreme cleave allows a 5' step between cleave attempts.

Wolf Pack Tactics grants additional 5' steps for every successfull attack.

Sparring Dummies and the advanced tumble rules from Oriental Aventures allow 5' steps to be modified into 10' steps (with wierd stacking).

As long as opponents keep dropping, you keep moving. The extra movement from your '5 foot' steps just helps get within reach of more targets.

I see, I see. That's pretty frickin neat.

[Midnight_v]

No, I just don't know anything about it, and I'd like to be the simple players in my group compared to the others.

The main Concept is a Scythe or Twin Sickle Build, Twin Sickles is if I drop Whirlwind. Which offers some still nice damage potential.

There are ways to be the simple guy but its hard to be the simple guy (if you mean by that a non complex build) AND be the whirlwind of death you imagine. You're gonna have to use one of the alternate systems Tob, Binding Magic, Incarnum, Psionics.
What level are you? If you don't mind me asking the more info we have the closer we can get to yor goal, honestly.

[Cieyrin]

Supreme cleave allows a 5' step between cleave attempts.

Wolf Pack Tactics grants additional 5' steps for every successfull attack.

Sparring Dummies and the advanced tumble rules from Oriental Aventures allow 5' steps to be modified into 10' steps (with wierd stacking).

As long as opponents keep dropping, you keep moving. The extra movement from your '5 foot' steps just helps get within reach of more targets.

Throw in Evasive Reflexes and you got yourself a deal, sir. :smallbiggrin:

[ExemplarofAvg]

There are ways to be the simple guy but its hard to be the simple guy (if you mean by that a non complex build) AND be the whirlwind of death you imagine. You're gonna have to use one of the alternate systems Tob, Binding Magic, Incarnum, Psionics.
What level are you? If you don't mind me asking the more info we have the closer we can get to yor goal, honestly.

10, Feats give me less of a headache and more importantly less of a headache to my DM, He already has to deal with ToB, and Psionics, and Knight that doesn't know his own abilities, and a Duskblade Nova, I just want the feat simplicity, I'm fine with only being able to Whirlwind or Spring Attack, heck in one level I can take Improved Whirlwind as someone above mentioned though I'm not sure they listed the source. So I can be a motionless blender of death. And then the Cleaving Spring Attack is an area clearer where I can take down some mooks and finish away from the combat.

[Curmudgeon]

Sparring Dummies and the advanced tumble rules from Oriental Aventures allow 5' steps to be modified into 10' steps (with wierd stacking).
I'm not sure what you're referring to here. Successfully training with a Sparring Dummy of the Master lets a Monk make a 10' adjustment in place of a 5' adjustment. A DC 40 Tumble check lets you move 10' as a 5' step. There's no possible stacking; both of these do the same thing. (Neither one gives you a second 5' step, like the Elocater Capricious Step (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm#capriciousStep) class ability. That, plus either of the above options, would enable you to make two 10' adjustments.)

[kharmakazy]

I think 6 levels of fighter and 4 levels of warblade gets you to initiator level 7 needed for mithral tornado. I would just do that.

Heck, you can ignore every single class feature of the warblade and just write down "Whilrwind attack" and I think you come out pretty well ahead of using feats. Better HD, full BAB, I would probably keep uncanny dodge tho.

[Person_Man]

Whirlwind Attack can be purchased with a +1 enhancement from the Magic Item Compendium.

If you're absolutely wedded to getting it and Great Cleave as feats (ie, 5 garbage feats), you should ask your DM if you can go Human Warrior (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) 2/Fighter 2/Psychic Warrior 2/Warmind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/warMind.htm) 5. That will get you 7 bonus Feats, Sweeping Strike, and access to Expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) and Hustle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/hustle.htm).