Shadowdancer....Spellthief?

[Graha013]

So while I was writing the original post for this, I read back through shadowdancer and realized that, limiting the ft. shadow-jumpable by a per day limit really decapitated this PrC from the start. I was envisioning a way to, without magic device, zap in and snipe a spell/spell-like ability/etc. with the spellthief multiclass, and zap away - but that might be possible all of...once.

So my question is, if not Shadowdancer, is there a PrC that is a realistic equivalent to accomplish this sort of spell snipery? Only limitations are no Eberron and no Dragon Mag stuff, but all other material and sources are ok.



Background: I've posted before about playing my current spellthief/bard build. At the same time I play a sort of 'gauntlet' game that starts at ecl 15. I have an optimized archer build and a gnome illusionist - but started thinking about how far a spellthief might prevail as we have begun facing more and more spellcasting and aberrations the further through the gauntlet we go. Looking at the 'idea' of shadowdancer, I thought I'd found the perfect mobility answer for the spellthief, but the actual description of the skills ...well, stated above :P.

[hivedragon]

If you like the concept but want better crunch, take a look at the Crinti Shadow Marauder or Teflammar Shadowlord.

[Graha013]

Books? I've got just about all of them, but those don't ring a bell..

[Lateral]

Telflammar Shadowlord is from Unapproachable East.

[hivedragon]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/tools
I love this link, click prestige classes.

[Graha013]

Wow great fricking link. Adding that to my DnD favorite folder. That is so clutch!

[Graha013]

If you like the concept but want better crunch, take a look at the Crinti Shadow Marauder or Teflammar Shadowlord.

Description wise, these seem a bit wider range than I anticipated. Teflammar is described as 'lords demanding supreme obedience' and the marauders described as mounted fighters. I'm getting Shining South now (thank you interwebs), but they may be too broad of a scope.

Is there anything non-shadow, but simply based on direct/quick teleporting?

[tyckspoon]

There's some pretty good homebrew, but not much else beyond that.

[Glimbur]

The Blink Shirt is a useful soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum. You normally can teleport 10' as a standard action. With essentia, you can get the range larger. If you can afford two levels of Totemist you can even bind it to your Totem Chakra which lets you do a very limited range personal only dim-door as a move action instead of a standard action. It's still dim door so you still can't act after porting, so you would have to fire and then move. Which is probably ok.

[Graha013]

The Blink Shirt is a useful soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum. You normally can teleport 10' as a standard action. With essentia, you can get the range larger. If you can afford two levels of Totemist you can even bind it to your Totem Chakra which lets you do a very limited range personal only dim-door as a move action instead of a standard action. It's still dim door so you still can't act after porting, so you would have to fire and then move. Which is probably ok.

Spellthief is shallow enough that really any multiclassing kind of drains away from it's full abilities.

Taking at least 15 levels, minimum, of spellthief, gives all of the unique properties of the class (steal spell, spell effect, spell resistance, and energy resistance, and also absorb spell) but not so much the upgrades to a couple of them (immediate casting and higher spell resist stealing).

Class level affecting the abilities can be avoided by taking Master spellthief, but multiclassing beyong 1 small/minor dip seems to really stunt the class beyond much use.

Are you recommending totemist over shadowdancer/telflammer/crinti?

Telflammer actually looks like it could be useful, though it suffers the same per day distance limitations. That might be able to be overcame however with the right spell choices in build and tactics (i.e. less range needed if you're able to flank from 30' away, staying hidden after the teleport, etc.)

[Graha013]

Spellthief is shallow enough that really any multiclassing kind of drains away from it's full abilities.



Even after saying that though, It almost makes sense to go 10 Spellthief/1 Shadow dancer/4 Teflammar shadow lord - using the dip in SD solely for hide in plain sight (a waste?)

ST at 10 has access to net of shadows (MoF) at 1st, invisibility, wall of gloom (MoF) - though why darkness is evocation is beyond me - and probably a handful of other spells that could create some sort of shadow (possibly even just holding up something in front of a light to create a shadow depending on the DM) - and


Scratch that - Teflammar gets darkness and improved invisibility - so I think moving and being securely hidden after jumping shadows would be pretty much covered. Just would it be better to go Tef 5 or ST 11 and skip the SD level and hide in plain sight?

[Graha013]

Spellthief is shallow enough that really any multiclassing kind of drains away from it's full abilities.



Even after saying that though, It almost makes sense to go 10 Spellthief/1 Shadow dancer/4 Teflammar shadow lord - using the dip in SD solely for hide in plain sight (a waste?)

ST at 10 has access to net of shadows (MoF) at 1st, invisibility, wall of gloom (MoF) - though why darkness is evocation is beyond me - and probably a handful of other spells that could create some sort of shadow (possibly even just holding up something in front of a light to create a shadow depending on the DM) - and


Scratch that - Teflammar gets darkness and improved invisibility - so I think moving and being securely hidden after jumping shadows would be pretty much covered. Just would it be better to go Tef 5 or ST 11 and skip the SD level and hide in plain sight?

[Piggy Knowles]

Earth Dreamer from Races of Stone. Spellthieves qualify easily, and they get the ability to see and glide through solid earth. It's not quite as cool as straight-up teleportation, but it's a great class for an infiltrator-type and fits very well with the Spellthief. Gliding up through the floor, stealing a spell, and then sinking back in is a lot of fun...

[Graha013]

Earth Dreamer from Races of Stone. Spellthieves qualify easily, and they get the ability to see and glide through solid earth. It's not quite as cool as straight-up teleportation, but it's a great class for an infiltrator-type and fits very well with the Spellthief. Gliding up through the floor, stealing a spell, and then sinking back in is a lot of fun...

Nice Piggy. Let me go read through - definitely sounds like an option!

[Big Fau]

IIRC, both of the Shadow Pouncer PrCs (Shadowlord and Shadow Marauder) have spellcasting of their own. If this is true, take Master Spellthief (CS).

You just need the DM to houserule Master Spellthief to advance the spell level cap of Steal Spell.

[Graha013]

Oh most definitely - in any of the three options (Shadowlord, marauder, or earth dreamer) master spellthief is a must. Curious though how master spellthief affects the caster level when combined with earth dreamer.


Earth dreamer gives +1 to spellcasting class for each level taken. The most optimum build I see combining the two is Spellthief 10/Earth dreamer 5. Would master spellthief make my caster level effective 20?

[Big Fau]

Oh most definitely - in any of the three options (Shadowlord, marauder, or earth dreamer) master spellthief is a must. Curious though how master spellthief affects the caster level when combined with earth dreamer.


Earth dreamer gives +1 to spellcasting class for each level taken. The most optimum build I see combining the two is Spellthief 10/Earth dreamer 5. Would master spellthief make my caster level effective 20?

That's a bit tricky. Master Spellthief can result in infinite caster levels as written. Ask your DM about that.

[Piggy Knowles]

Earth dreamer gives +1 to spellcasting class for each level taken. The most optimum build I see combining the two is Spellthief 10/Earth dreamer 5. Would master spellthief make my caster level effective 20?

A strict reading of the feat says yes, but a lot of DMs will rule that away, since the intent of Master Spellthief seems to be for classes that grant their own spellcasting. So, check with your DM.

As for ideal builds, I would definitely also dip a level of Mindbender. One level gives you telepathy, which in and of itself is pretty cool. Add in the Mindsight feat (found in a sidebar in Lords of Madness), and you end up with a character with great skills, that can see through stone, has a limited tremorsense-like ability, and can sense minds. Plus you get the stone-based divination. It makes a pretty spectacular scout or infiltrator, and synergizes well with the whole phase in/steal spell/phase out concept.

[Talionis]

There is that reserve feat that allows you to teleport if you have a higher level spell unused.

The Shadow Hand manuevers from Tome of Battle have no prerequisites other than meeting the initator level, so they can be picked up with the Martial Study Feat. The last one is teleport 50 feet as a immediate action, but the others can teleport as a move action and another which maybe standard action. Having a level of crusader or warblade to have a recovery mechanic is always a good idea for multiple uses in an encounter.

[Big Fau]

There is that reserve feat that allows you to teleport if you have a higher level spell unused.

The Shadow Hand manuevers from Tome of Battle have no prerequisites other than meeting the initator level, so they can be picked up with the Martial Study Feat. The last one is teleport 50 feet as a immediate action, but the others can teleport as a move action and another which maybe standard action. Having a level of crusader or warblade to have a recovery mechanic is always a good idea for multiple uses in an encounter.

Or you can take Shape Soulmeld and get 10ft teleportation at will from level 1. Either works, but the Reserve feat is really annoying to qualify for with a Spellthief (and does very little good for TSL or SM, since they can afford to cast teleportation effects multiple times each day).

[Graha013]

Speaking with my old DM friend last night, he actually recommended foregoing any PrC or multiclass base class for teleportation/mobility, and to wrap the class in battle sorc multiclassing with a supplemental range of spells. The most optimum for spellthieving I found was like 13ST/7BS, or around the opposite for a caster based who can thieve spells.

I mean, ultimately, the spellthief class just doesn't feel 'complete' without like 15 levels. Nonetheless:

Focusing on ray spells as your means of sneak attacking within 30' (although that does kind of waste the ray's range power), you could feasibly do like a sudden maximized scorching ray and grab like 5d6 damage + 3d6 sneak attack + steal a spell. (granted in some cases, you might want to steal the spell first before you kill the mage with the damage, right?:P). Maybe even add some flexibility like extend metamagic (the one that lets you make touch attacks as ranged touch), quicken spells (would that let you pop them for two rays?) and (ray focused) split ray metamagic. Granted the sneak attack would only be given once on the casting (...logic right there?) you could then answer the main compatibility flaw for the build: What do you do when there is no mage spells/effects/resistances/abilities to thieve? The answer then is sneak attack with damage.

Thoughts now? Assistance on what min/max of battle sorc and spellthief would grant some spells to best aid in movement (teleport) and sneak attacking? (blinking, invisibility) ?

[Piggy Knowles]

Eh, I have a hard time believing that splitting your levels between Spellthief and Battle Sorcerer would do much for you. (For one thing, Battle Sorcerer really isn't all that great - you'd be much better off with Stalwart Sorcerer).

My main concern is that, in order to get decent enough spells to make a difference, you would have to really dilute your Spellthief progression. Take your Spellthief 13/Battle Sorcerer 7. You'll have third level spells from your Battle Sorcerer levels. Third level spells are GREAT - at early to mid levels. By the time you actually get those spells, they're really not very good. They give you less than what any really basic items will give you. Honestly, you'd be better off just going Spellthief 20.

If your goal is to have spellthief flavor, but be an effective caster, I would recommend:

Spellthief 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5

Definitely take Master Spellthief, and go crazy and take the Abrupt Jaunt class feature, if it's allowed. (Really, it's just crazy good.) You'll have decent skills, solid sneak attack (better than a straight Spellthief, actually), armored casting, and the ability to steal spells when necessary. But you also get 19 uninterrupted levels of wizard casting, which is about the best thing you could ever ask for.

Or, if you want the DM to hate you, consider...

Whisper Gnome, Spellthief 15/Shadowcraft Mage 5 (or Spellthief 14/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5, or Spellthief 9/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Earth Dreamer 5...)

Take Earth Spell, Heighten Spell, and Master Spellthief. Steal spells. Re-cast them as heightened Silent Image spells off your spellthief list. Use Shadowcraft Mage to convert them into any Conjuration or Evocation spell out there. Suddenly your Spellthief "casts" better than most full casters.

But I do think that just going Spellthief 14/Mindbender 1/Earth Dreamer 5, or even straight Spellthief 20, will do better than trying to split your levels between Spellthief and Battle Sorcerer.

[ericgrau]

Level 15? Then you have quite a bit of money. A cape of the mountebank lets you dimension door 1/day for only 10k. Get 2-3 and swap them out. Or asking for a single custom 2-3/day item for the same price as 2-3 capes is both in line with the custom item guidelines and, more importantly, perfectly reasonable. The cape also comes with nightcrawler brimstone smoke at no additional charge.

Dimension door lets you specify distance and direction, so you don't need to see your target. If you accidentally hit a wall you merely take a small amount of damage.

If you really want to get fancy you can get a cloak of etherealness for 55k and ghost through walls practically as much as you want (100 rounds). While ethereal you can travel in any direction at half speed, there is no gravity. Plus you can appear right behind your target. Get a high initiative and you get a free sneak attack.

I once had an epic level character who could fly, ghost through walls, see through walls, spider sense danger, and probably a few things I'm forgetting. A regular Super Elf.