Shadowstaff: What bonus is it?

[graeylin]

The major artifact from the DMG, the staff of shadows/shadowstaff, bestows a +4 bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

But, it doesn't seem to say what the melee bonus is to strike. Am I missing something? Is it masterwork only, or a +1, or +4? It would seem odd to be a major artifact, and yet, not have a magical bonus to hit and damage.

[BillyBobJoe]

Wrong section, this should be in the 3.5 section.

[Anxe]

Since it doesn't mention it my assumption would be that by RAW it cannot be used to attack. However, as a DM, I would probably assign it to be a +4 Quarterstaff without any special weapon enhancements (like Keen or Bane vs. Insects).

[graeylin]

I thought I was in the 3.5 section, but apparently, i hit the wrong button somewhere. Hopefully, an admin moves it.

[Alleran]

Since it doesn't mention it my assumption would be that by RAW it cannot be used to attack.
I would go with this. Just rule that you can swing it all you want, but because it is "shadow" rather than "solid" it doesn't actually do any damage with simple physical force. So to speak.

[Devmaar]

I would go with this. Just rule that you can swing it all you want, but because it is "shadow" rather than "solid" it doesn't actually do any damage with simple physical force. So to speak.

So can it do damage to denizens of the Shadow Plane?

[graeylin]

Since it doesn't mention it my assumption would be that by RAW it cannot be used to attack. However, as a DM, I would probably assign it to be a +4 Quarterstaff without any special weapon enhancements (like Keen or Bane vs. Insects).

I hadn't thought of it like that. So a staff of the Magi is the same... tons of spell powers, but you couldn't bop an orc with it.

[Cieyrin]

Any magic staff has to start with a masterwork staff to accept the enchantment, so by default hitting somebody with a staff with either in is at a +1 enhancement from masterworking. Plus, if you couldn't hit somebody with a staff that wasn't enchanted like a weapon like some are, Eilservs School (http://realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Eilservs_School) wouldn't work.

[hamishspence]

You can hit somebody- it just won't get a bonus.

Just as if you wouldn't get a "masterwork bonus" for hitting someone with a wand as an improvised weapon- so, there's nothing saying that all staffs with charges, are also masterwork weapons.

I checked, and in the DMG, there's no "must be a masterwork item" for charged staffs.

Not to mention, that Eilservs School specifically states that it only works with staffs that have charges, and the Shadowstaff does not, technically, have them.

[Cieyrin]

You can hit somebody- it just won't get a bonus.

Just as if you wouldn't get a "masterwork bonus" for hitting someone with a wand as an improvised weapon- so, there's nothing saying that all staffs with charges, are also masterwork weapons.

I checked, and in the DMG, there's no "must be a masterwork item" for charged staffs.

Not to mention, that Eilservs School specifically states that it only works with staffs that have charges, and the Shadowstaff does not, technically, have them.

I was going by how those staves that are enchanted as magic weapons would have to be, yet don't exact a masterwork cost (Staff of Power, Staff of Fiery Power, Staff of Nature's Fury, Staff of Planar Might, etc.). And while you wouldn't normally use a wand as a melee weapon, you can do so with a staff and the staff crafting rules do say you need a staff, one which you'd assume would be quality enough to take enchantment. While it may not explicitly say so, I'm of the simple opinion that, whether it says the staff is masterwork or not, you can at the very least use it to knock the sense into somebody's gourd.

[KillianHawkeye]

If it doesn't mention having a bonus to attacks and damage, then it doesn't have one. It is still a large stick, though.

[graeylin]

I think it has to have at least a +1, because all magical weapons have to be at least plus one, and a staff is a weapon.

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls... In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities... A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

So, to be an artifact, it must have a special ability. To have a special ability, it must have a +1 enhancement bonus, if it is a weapon. And a staff is a weapon, while a wand is not.

[ericgrau]

That's only true if it's given weapon enchantments. A casting staff can be as simple as a walking stick and might not even be masterwork. They almost never get a +1.

If you want to fudge something I'd make it masterwork and call it a day, but the real answer is "How did you get a hold of a major artifact and yet can't find a better weapon option than crudely cudgeling your foes with your wispy stick of doom?"

[graeylin]

but the real answer is "How did you get a hold of a major artifact and yet can't find a better weapon option than crudely cudgeling your foes with your wispy stick of doom?"

Liberated it from a lich, on our way to fight a nasty dragon.
1) my PC has other weapons (a staff of power, actually)
2) Likes the shadowstaff for the effect, plus being able to summon shadows to strength drain is a quick combat ender
3) as a wizard, I dislike being in melee, but hey, I don't want to get stuck, swing my staff, and figure out then that it slides right through people like smoke and shadow, etc.
4) Kinda weird holding two staffs at the same time, casting spells, etc.. Was hoping that the shadowstaff had at least some melee capability, if i needed it in a pinch.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think it has to have at least a +1, because all magical weapons have to be at least plus one, and a staff is a weapon.

Magic weapons have enhancement bonuses ranging from +1 to +5. They apply these bonuses to both attack and damage rolls when used in combat. All magic weapons are also masterwork weapons, but their masterwork bonus on attack rolls does not stack with their enhancement bonus on attack rolls... In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities... A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.

So, to be an artifact, it must have a special ability. To have a special ability, it must have a +1 enhancement bonus, if it is a weapon. And a staff is a weapon, while a wand is not.

A staff can be used as a weapon, but it doesn't have to be enchanted as one.

[ericgrau]

4) Kinda weird holding two staffs at the same time, casting spells, etc.. Was hoping that the shadowstaff had at least some melee capability, if i needed it in a pinch.
You can cast from both staffs like that but casting spells requires a free hand and wielding a staff in melee requires 2 hands. Typically a turn goes: release 1 hand from staff, cast spell, return hand to staff => you still threaten things in melee and get your attacks of opportunity.

[Thurbane]

4) Kinda weird holding two staffs at the same time, casting spells, etc.. Was hoping that the shadowstaff had at least some melee capability, if i needed it in a pinch.
Reminds me of Lareth in the Village of Hommlet module - a BBEG Cleric who fights you with a mace in one hand, Staff of Striking in the other, and still casts spells. We used to call him The Mixmaster. :smallbiggrin:

[graeylin]

You can cast from both staffs like that but casting spells requires a free hand and wielding a staff in melee requires 2 hands. Typically a turn goes: release 1 hand from staff, cast spell, return hand to staff => you still threaten things in melee and get your attacks of opportunity.

somatic weaponry for that.