Help me build a cleric - without Divine Metamagic

[Laniius]

I'm looking to build a cleric, good aligned, who can buff the party and help in the front lines. The books I have access to for this build are the core 3, complete arcane, complete warrior, complete scoundrel, PHBII, and stormwrack. It's going to be an underwater campaign and I'm most likely a merfolk. Any ideas?

[Coidzor]

UA/SRD material on the table? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/prestigiousCharacterClasses.htm#prestigePaladin) PrC Paladin is good for a few levels.

There's not many decent melee-centric PrCs for Clerics are in complete warrior for some strange reason. They're actually in an adventure module and a campaign setting book for Eberron. Well, Ordained Champion might in Complete Warrior, I forgot where it ended up.

[Kenneth]

this si really the same thing as the DMM cleric. except you don;t take DMM,



the main difference being you not going to be persiting mass vigor all day long.

really a core only cleric is able to buff the party quite well as well as front line melee.

If you take a prestige class always take one that has full casting, as when you start losing caster levels, that is where you suffer.

[Laniius]

No I don't believe UA stuff is open, though I'll look at that prestige paladin and send it to the DM just in case.

[NecroRick]

It's a shame you don't have access to Complete Mage. Without Divine Metamagic, the other metamagic feats are pointless/too expensive by far, and reserve feats are the next best thing to metamagic.

[Feytalist]

Perhaps a summoner? Thaumaturgist or malconvoker are both relatively good for that. Helping in the front lines doesn't mean you have to be in the front lines yourself, heh.

The only real combat-centric PrC you have access to is Warpriest, but it's not all that good. 5/10 casting and some iffy abilities.

As for buffing, well, about half the cleric spell list is all about buffing, so you have no problems there no matter what you choose.

[Laniius]

Thanks for the ideas! I've built core only clerics before, I should be able to do it again; I just have to believe in myself. Anyway, I was considering warpriest but that's in Complete Divine, which isn't allowed. I also tend to avoid summoning, as we have a slightly above average sized group who are also impatient - adding the extra actions of summoned monsters rarely goes over well.

[Saintheart]

If you're not going to run into undead in your travels, IIRC there's an ACF for clerics in PHB II that trades out turning undead for a paladin-esque Smite Evil option. Could be useful for battle, especially if DMM is forbidden, since that's the great engine for turn undead. I've seen a very effective cleric o' war with no turn undead at all, and she kicks butt using this option.

If you're going frontline cleric, consider the Retribution domain, which IIRC is out of PHB II as well. If someone hits you, you smack him back even harder. A sort of proto-Crusader :smallsmile:

Although: if that's the full list of books you've got available, does that mean the SpC is out? If so, some good stuff's lost by that. :smallmad:

[Feytalist]

Blargh, I always think Warpriest is in CW.

Oh well, like you said, just build a core only normal cleric. Should be plenty strong on its own.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm looking to build a cleric, good aligned, who can buff the party and help in the front lines. The books I have access to for this build are the core 3, complete arcane, complete warrior, complete scoundrel, PHBII, and stormwrack. It's going to be an underwater campaign and I'm most likely a merfolk. Any ideas?

Well, that doesn't give a lot to work with, but let's see what we can do, eh?

First off, there's plenty of Divine feats in the sourcebooks listed, so no need to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

PhB II has a variant which trades out the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells for the ability to spontaneously cast from a domain. Since you have two domains, and you are spontaneously casting from one of them, the other is always prepared, giving you a lot of flexability. Furthermore, if you choose the Healing domain as the one you cast spontaneously from, not only do you get spontaneous Cure spells (the more useful ones, anyways), but you also get spontaneous Heal spells. That alone is worth the switch.

It also has the stunningly useful Divine Ward feat. This lets you heal and buff your allies with Touch spells at range, by blowing turn undead attempts. Always a useful and viable ability, don't you think?

There's a few other divine feats, but those are the crown jewels.

Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, unfortunately, holds nothing for you. Complete Scoundrel doesn't offer much to a divine fellow either. Well, CWar has a few other divine feats, but they really aren't worth much to you.

[VladtheLad]

Excellent advice sneekeythelost.

I am actually playing a cloistered cleric4/ inquisitor6/contemplative3 PC and the dm banned divine metamagic. So I am intrested to know your advice if all the books were open.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Excellent advice sneekeythelost.

I am actually playing a cloistered cleric4/ inquisitor6/contemplative3 PC and the dm banned divine metamagic. So I am intrested to know your advice if all the books were open.

Well, without DMM, you would need to find another venue for using your Turn Attempts, since the standard use is... suboptimal. Divine Ward is a good way to use turn attempts and not have to bother with Reach Spell. There are others, however.

I'm assuming that with Inquisitor, you are a 'good guy', not a bad guy. Therefore, I am assuming that you are Turning rather than Rebuking. If this is otherwise, please let me know, as it will affect some options.

From the Book of Bad Latin (Libris Mortis), we have Spurn Death's Touch. Blow a turn attempt to heal ability damage, remove paralysis, or restore a negative level. However, it only works against stuff undead did. But since the primary cause of such effects tend to be Undead, it's not too bad a restriction.

From Complete Divine, you've got several options.

Disciple of the Sun lets you pretty much have Greater Turning whenever you want it. Since it basically dusts anything of an appropriate CR, it makes Turn Undead actually viable for it's given use of destroying undead.

Divine Spell Power is another feat which can completely break the game. Specifically: Holy Word + massively boosting your CL = 'you are dead, no save, and it isn't a death effect so no, you aren't immune to it either'. It's a no save, just die effect.

Domain Spontaneity is also good if you have good domains, because it lets you cast more domain spells. Need another Bolt of Glory to finish the job? There you go.

Sacred Healing is also good, because you can't persist Mass Vigor. Basically, this lets you heal up allies with turn attempts. 3x (1+CHa mod) healing per person per turn attempt. Handy to top people off without blowing spell slots.

That combos nicely with the Touch of Healing reserve feat which lets you heal allies up to 1/2 their maximum HP for free. It's in Complete Champion.

In fact, Complete Champion also has the Domain Devotion feats, which are variously useful.

[Elric VIII]

It's a shame you don't have access to Complete Mage. Without Divine Metamagic, the other metamagic feats are pointless/too expensive by far, and reserve feats are the next best thing to metamagic.

This is completely untrue. Quicken and Persist are still the most powerful metamagic effects even if they aren't reduced in cost.

Extend is also very nice for a Cleric. You can pick this up early on and be prepared to take Persist should your game move into the high levels of play. Persisted Divine Favor is a good deal for a 7th level spell slot. Persisted Protection from X is great to use on your low Will save allies.


As for general Cleric advice, choosing to be dedicated to a cause/ideal will let you choose domains that get you the best spell choices (although this may not work for some character concepts).


The Courage domain (CWar) has some nice buff spells (Heroism, Valiant Fury).

Nobility (CWar) gives you a 1/day Inspire Courage +2 for 1 round/Cleric level.

[ericgrau]

Use 10 minute per level and hour per level buffs to conserve combat actions. Prepare maybe 1 or 2 minute/level or round/level buffs in case you get a buffing round, but don't count on it. During the combat you should spend most of the time fighting. Heal only when it gets dangerous, and thus you should be using your highest level spells to heal or clearly it wasn't dangerous enough.

There are two exceptions to the rule against in-combat buffs: First, in large enough parties, multi-buffs are still worth the action because they hit so many targets. Bless and prayer are nice. Second, in very long fights a buff may still be worth it if cast in round 1. But at ~5 rounds or less you'll usually contribute more damage by attacking.

Pick up lots of low level scrolls of remove X, just in case. For afflictions requiring higher level spells like remove paralysis or (later) restoration, you might want to use higher level spell slots. Then if you don't get to use the spell then, well, you're spontaneously swapping it for a cure spell anyway. But this is assuming you don't have any better high level options that are more likely to get used.

As a fighter buffer not many of your things have saves so strength and maybe constitution should come before wisdom. Or you could be a caster buffer in which case you put wisdom first and replace above references to fighting with "casting offensive spells".

[DrMartin]

Craft Contingent Spell from complete arcane is another nice toy to play with, if you make it high-ish levels (req. caster level 11th). If you have a feat to spare consider scribe scroll, unless your game is set in a MagicMart setting and you can just buy the scrolls you want at the caster level that you need.

[gooddragon1]

Well, that doesn't give a lot to work with, but let's see what we can do, eh?

First off, there's plenty of Divine feats in the sourcebooks listed, so no need to toss the baby out with the bathwater.

PhB II has a variant which trades out the ability to spontaneously cast Cure spells for the ability to spontaneously cast from a domain. Since you have two domains, and you are spontaneously casting from one of them, the other is always prepared, giving you a lot of flexability. Furthermore, if you choose the Healing domain as the one you cast spontaneously from, not only do you get spontaneous Cure spells (the more useful ones, anyways), but you also get spontaneous Heal spells. That alone is worth the switch.

It also has the stunningly useful Divine Ward feat. This lets you heal and buff your allies with Touch spells at range, by blowing turn undead attempts. Always a useful and viable ability, don't you think?

There's a few other divine feats, but those are the crown jewels.

Complete Arcane and Complete Warrior, unfortunately, holds nothing for you. Complete Scoundrel doesn't offer much to a divine fellow either. Well, CWar has a few other divine feats, but they really aren't worth much to you.

I'd go with the spontaneous domain cleric variant and one of the two domains that grant polymorph (http://home.comcast.net/~ftm3/ASMoNM/domains.html). Most likely the alteration domain. Polymorph is just that good and can make you into a front line fighter with one spell slot and a decent monster choice without adding extra actions.

EDIT: Well, after reading what books you have access to, I guess you could ask. Blackwater domain has black tentacles which is a good battlefield control spell. Animal domain has shapechange if you think the game will go long enough. Trickery gets you polymorph any object.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Necromancy.