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View Full Version : New vestige - Shami-Amoure - Lady of Delights



ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 09:42 AM
I need your comments on this homebrew vestige. I'll skip the fluff and go right to the abilities. I have no idea what level should this vestige be so please give your insight.

Sign: You get leathery wings, a demonic tail and two little horns protruding from your forehead. The wings are functional and allow flying as long as your Body of Delight ability is active.
Requirement: Binder can't be good.
Granted Abilities: As the former Queen of Succubi and one of the first succubi that came into existance, Shami is strongly tied to her own kind. When bound to her you basically become a lesser succubus.
Body of Delight: While bound to Shami, you gain the alu-demon template (page 5 of DnD 3.5 Index of Templates (http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf)).
Profane Beauty: You get a deflection bonus to your AC equal to your Cha bonus as long as you don't wear armor.
Lust Companion: While bound to Shami, you gain the service of summoned, loyal succubus/incubus which appears by you as soon as you finish the binding successfully. The demon is considered helpful towards you and acts as if it would be under a Dominate Monster spell cast by you, but the effect can't be dispelled and it lasts as long as you are bound to Shami. When the binding ends, the vestige is expelled or the succubus/incubus dies it is send back to Abyss without any grudge. When you bind Shami again you can choose to summon the same succubus/incubus again or summon a different one.

Yora
2011-07-05, 09:50 AM
This one really depends a lot on what effects the template has.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 10:00 AM
http://chet.kindredcircle.org/pdf/DnD3.5Index-Templates.pdf

Admiral Squish
2011-07-05, 10:08 AM
Might be just me, but I'm not seeing Alu-demon on there anywhere.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 10:12 AM
Try again, it should be good now. Earlier I linked the wrong one.

Kayne650
2011-07-05, 10:16 AM
It's there, on page 5. However, it gives a TON of bonuses, including at least a +2 to every attribute besides Wisdom, Darkvision, SR 10+HD, Acid, Electric, Cold, and Fire Resistance 10, a touch attack that heals you, and spell-like abilities based on HD. It seems really powerful to me, even before the Succubus or Incubus companion, because those are what, CR 12? With those abilities, I would place it at level 7, minimum, possibly higher. But that's just my opinion.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 10:24 AM
Succubus is only CR 7. And maybe it's not clear in the OP, but when the succubus/incubus dies (or is banished or soomething) it doesn't return to you until you bind with Shami again.
There is a vestige online, Zceryll, that gives the pseudonatural template and you can use Summon Monster I-X (and the summoned monsters also have the pseudonatural template) 1 time/5rounds. And it's only level 6.

Ingus
2011-07-05, 10:24 AM
I tend to underrate power and powers, but it seems at very least a 6th level vestige: it grants a very useful template and the effect similar to a 4th level spell (lesser planar ally).
You could improve it at 7th adding a third, lesser ability. Maybe wings.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 10:26 AM
It gives wings, they're part of the alu-demon template.

Ingus
2011-07-05, 10:43 AM
You're right, ImperatorK, I really missed wings.

But about Zceryll and Shami there is a huge difference: Zceryll grants a suboptimal spell chain (summon duration is in rounds, so it consumes actions in combat, and I still guess if it has casting time of full round or just standard) also only once every 5 rounds, and a low impact and low LA template (+1/+2);
while Shami grants an average spell-like effect, with the duration of the binding (not consuming actions in combat) and a fabulous template with higher LA (+4).

Reconsidering my previous statement, Shami is a overpowered 7th level vestige or a solid 8th level vestige (compare with Orthos).

Yes, vestiges are underpowered and so is the binder. One should rethink most vestiges to let Shami in. If not, it is near the best option ever

Kayne650
2011-07-05, 10:45 AM
Succubus is only CR 7. And maybe it's not clear in the OP, but when the succubus/incubus dies (or is banished or soomething) it doesn't return to you until you bind with Shami again.
There is a vestige online, Zceryll, that gives the pseudonatural template and you can use Summon Monster I-X (and the summoned monsters also have the pseudonatural template) 1 time/5rounds. And it's only level 6.

The fact that you can't get it back when it dies lowers its power somewhat, Succubi are support creatures anyway, so it wouldn't be used for much combat. And as for the comparison between Alu-demon and Pseudonatural, the Pseudonatural template grants no attribute bonuses, no spell-like abilities except for True Strike once per day, does not grant Darkvision, immunity to poison, and it only grants resistance to 2 different types. And that's not even everything that the Alu-demon template grants. You get more SR with Pseudonatural, but that's about it. You get a lot less with the Pseudonatural template than you do with Alu-demon, so it's not really a fair comparison at all.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 10:55 AM
I'm not saying it is. just pointing out that there's something similar.
I'm not arguing with you guys, just giving information, so you can give better judgement. I was thinking 8th level myself, but I wanted to be sure, so I asked.

Kayne650
2011-07-05, 11:03 AM
Hm, I realized that I might have come off as a bit confrontational. Sorry about that. :smallbiggrin:

No, I was just saying that, especially compared to other Vestiges, this would be quite a high level Vestige. I would definitely say 8th level for this Vestige. However, it's a really cool concept, and I always love seeing new Vestiges. Next time I have a high level Binder, I'll keep this in mind!

Veyr
2011-07-05, 11:10 AM
There is a vestige online, Zceryll, that gives the pseudonatural template and you can use Summon Monster I-X (and the summoned monsters also have the pseudonatural template) 1 time/5rounds. And it's only level 6.
Zceryll is the most powerful Vestige printed, I don't care about its level. Perhaps not the best balance-point.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 11:22 AM
Zceryll is the most powerful Vestige printed, I don't care about its level. Perhaps not the best balance-point.
Well. You are not me, so...
And for the record: Zceryll isn't my balance-point, it's only an example of the maximum power that could be on 6th level. Obviously my vestige is more powerful, so it's definitely higher level. 8th sounds just right.

Veyr
2011-07-05, 11:25 AM
Binder without access to Zceryll: Tier 3.
Binder with access to Zceryll: Tier 2.

This is in JaronK's tier list. That single Vestige is enough to bump the Binder up a Tier. So unless that's your goal, Zceryll is a poor example to argue balance with.

Now, I'm not convinced that the Succubus/Incubus is a huge balance problem, but the template seems very good for the level.

ImperatorK
2011-07-05, 11:27 AM
Binder with online vestiges is tier 2, yes. BTW, wheren't there an errata or statement about RAI from the author(s) of this vestige?

What level?

Zaydos
2011-07-05, 05:38 PM
I'd definitely say 8th; even then alu-fiend and Cha to AC is pretty powerful.

Note also Zceryll does not grant SMIX only up to SMVII. This, though, does grant SMIX, but only once per day and only for evil creatures.

Benly
2011-07-05, 06:14 PM
Note also Zceryll does not grant SMIX only up to SMVII.


This is incorrect.

From the text of the "Summon Alien" ability of Zceryll (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718): "You can summon any creature from the summon monster list that a sorcerer of your level could summon." You are probably misremembering based on the example given of a 14th-level binder being able to summon off the SMVII list.



Binder with online vestiges is tier 2, yes. BTW, wheren't there an errata or statement about RAI from the author(s) of this vestige?

Eytan Bernstein did release an unofficial errata (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8880&whichpage=7) for Zceryll (scroll down a bit). Mostly it's clarifications; the only actual change made is to give the summons a duration of 1 round per EBL (as opposed to their previous undefined duration), preventing the rather silly trick of summoning an infinite horde of hound archons because they had no listed expiration on the summoning.

Zceryll does still let a binder have three or four pseudonatural couatls always hanging around, though - just use the ability again every time it recharges while you're walking around in the dungeon, since the duration is much longer than the recharge time. It's a standard action, so it doesn't even slow down the party (you still have your move action to keep wandering around with the party that round). That way, when combat starts you've already got a couple of buddies hanging around for the first several rounds of the fight, no combat action needed.

The alu-fiend template is pretty powerful indeed, but I wouldn't say this has to be a level 8 vestige - vestige power doesn't exactly scale in ways that make sense even with the official published ones. This could be a level 7 vestige, or possibly a very strong 6 (same as Zceryll is). My main concern with making it a "high 6" would be that having Zceryll and Shami-Amoure at the same level would mean a significant jump in power as soon as 6 becomes available.

Edit: On second thought, all three abilities are pretty good on top of the one standout. 7 or 8 is probably most appropriate.

ImperatorK
2011-07-07, 06:49 PM
Zceryll does still let a binder have three or four pseudonatural couatls always hanging around, though - just use the ability again every time it recharges while you're walking around in the dungeon, since the duration is much longer than the recharge time. It's a standard action, so it doesn't even slow down the party (you still have your move action to keep wandering around with the party that round). That way, when combat starts you've already got a couple of buddies hanging around for the first several rounds of the fight, no combat action needed.
Full-round action (at least that's what I see in this unofficial errata you linked):

The summoning ability functions all ways as if you are a sorcerer of your effective binder level casting a summon monster spell. Any creature you summon that is eligible (the significant majority) has the pseudonatural template (and yes, that means you can summon a pseudonatural celestial badger if you like). Just like a sorcerer, you must use a full round action to employ this ability. The duration is 1 round/level. You can only summon one creature at a time (so you can't summon 1d3 or 1d4+1 lower level creatures).(...)

Benly
2011-07-07, 07:59 PM
Ah, I missed that - that does make it a little more annoying, but an ongoing posse of pseudonatural couatls may be worth it anyway.

ImperatorK
2011-07-26, 02:45 PM
Additions:
"Sign: You get leathery wings, a demonic tail and two little horns protruding from your forehead. The wings are functional and allow flying as long as your Body of Delight ability is active."
"Requirement: Binder can't be good."