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View Full Version : What is Mr. Scruffy's Alignment?


MoonCat
2011-07-05, 06:24 PM
Pretty much what the title says. While I don't think there's any doubt he's Chaotic (he is a cat after all :smallwink:), I wonder about the other half. It seems like a good topic for discussion that hasn't been worn to bits. So, what do you think?
Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-05, 06:28 PM
True neutral. He's not sentient. And besides, he's never done anything bad except killing the gladiator to defend Belkar. And his loyalty to Belkar gives him lawful traits.

Of course, everyone knows that every cat is either CN or LE, so Mr. Scruffy would be CN.
martianmister
2011-07-05, 06:32 PM
Somewhere between CN and CE.
Prowl
2011-07-05, 08:13 PM
Neurotic cute
Gorbad Ironclaw
2011-07-05, 09:16 PM
Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, Neutral good, or potentially Neutral Evil if he stays with Belkar too long.
NYCharlie212
2011-07-05, 09:50 PM
He's a cat. True neutral. Although like Haley says, Belkar's influence mightave dragged Mr Scuffy a bit towards Neutral Evil
Zevox
2011-07-05, 11:09 PM
He's True Neutral. As an animal, he lacks the intelligence to be anything else. (By D&D rules, anything with an intelligence of 2 or less cannot be any alignment other than True Neutral, and all non-magical animals have intelligence scores of 1 or 2.)

Zevox
veti
2011-07-05, 11:23 PM
We had this discussion a few months ago. Just too long to resurrect the thread, I think, but here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=190619) it is for reference.
Tirian
2011-07-05, 11:51 PM
He's True Neutral. As an animal, he lacks the intelligence to be anything else.

The only evidence we have that Mr. Scruffy is unintelligent is that he doesn't speak hasn't yet spoken Common, and that isn't much proof, especially since he does seem to be very capable of decision-making. He may be a simple housecat, and he may be an emissary of the Twelve Gods, but I think he is undoubtedly sufficiently exceptional that we shouldn't go straight to the Monster Manual to overrule what we're reading.


And besides, he's never done anything bad except killing the gladiator to defend Belkar.

Uh, he also "deliberately" embiggened the bar fight so that Belkar would feel comfortable joining in.

I think the impact Mr. Scruffy's existence has on the environment around him is Chaotic Neutral. Perhaps because that cat consciously makes those choices and perhaps it's because Rich declaring the Rule of Funny. In the end, what's the difference?
Zevox
2011-07-06, 12:19 AM
The only evidence we have that Mr. Scruffy is unintelligent is that he doesn't speak hasn't yet spoken Common, and that isn't much proof, especially since he does seem to be very capable of decision-making. He may be a simple housecat, and he may be an emissary of the Twelve Gods, but I think he is undoubtedly sufficiently exceptional that we shouldn't go straight to the Monster Manual to overrule what we're reading.
I don't know what comic you're reading that has had Mister Scruffy display some sort of exceptional intelligence, but I've certainly not seen any evidence in this one that he's at all more intelligent than a house cat should be, and lacking that it would be utterly preposterous to require evidence that he isn't particularly intelligent.

Zevox
MoonCat
2011-07-06, 12:23 AM
I don't know what comic you're reading that has had Mister Scruffy display some sort of exceptional intelligence, but I've certainly not seen any evidence in this one that he's at all more intelligent than a house cat should be, and lacking that it would be utterly preposterous to require evidence that he isn't particularly intelligent.

Zevox

There was that bit about him seeing the scrying eye that required a higher intelligence, but that could have been Rule Of Drama.
Zevox
2011-07-06, 12:26 AM
There was that bit about him seeing the scrying eye that required a higher intelligence, but that could have been Rule Of Drama.
More likely it was Rich simply either not remembering or not caring about that rule. Every time he's posted here about the game rules it's been with statements to the effect that doesn't care about following them closely and really just uses them for humor or when it's convenient. When it comes to something as obscure as that, it's most likely that he simply didn't know about it, and would just ignore it even if he did.

Zevox
MoonCat
2011-07-06, 12:30 AM
More likely it was Rich simply either not remembering or not caring about that rule. Every time he's posted here about the game rules it's been with statements to the effect that doesn't care about following them closely and really just uses them for humor or when it's convenient. When it comes to something as obscure as that, it's most likely that he simply didn't know about it, and would just ignore it even if he did.

Zevox

I didn't play DnD at the time, or think much of the kittie's intelligence and other details (damn, I've really changed) , so I wouldn't know how things like that turn out.
Tirian
2011-07-06, 12:52 AM
I don't know what comic you're reading that has had Mister Scruffy display some sort of exceptional intelligence, but I've certainly not seen any evidence in this one that he's at all more intelligent than a house cat should be, and lacking that it would be utterly preposterous to require evidence that he isn't particularly intelligent.

Not exceptional intelligence, an exceptional cat. He's the cat of the former Lord of Azure City, a guy who was clearly interested in actively protecting the gates and moreover a guy who keeps his cards close to his chest. That cat is now traveling with the only adventuring party that is doing that same task. It is hardly absurd to believe that this is more than coincidence or Rich wanting to have as many opportunities as possible to draw cats in his strip, and that Mr. Scruffy is a powerful and intelligent being that has taken the form of a cat.
Zevox
2011-07-06, 12:58 AM
Not exceptional intelligence, an exceptional cat. He's the cat of the former Lord of Azure City, a guy who was clearly interested in actively protecting the gates and moreover a guy who keeps his cards close to his chest. That cat is now traveling with the only adventuring party that is doing that same task. It is hardly absurd to believe that this is more than coincidence or Rich wanting to have as many opportunities as possible to draw cats in his strip, and that Mr. Scruffy is a powerful and intelligent being that has taken the form of a cat.
No, considering the total lack of evidence of that, that is indeed utterly absurd. And no, just being Shojo's pet does not constitute evidence that Mr Scruffy is anything but a normal house cat. The reason he became a recurring character is because it was important for Belkar's character development, and Mister Scruffy's connection to Shojo, whom Belkar admired, gave Belkar a reason to want to take him along.

Zevox
martianmister
2011-07-06, 04:04 AM
I don't know what comic you're reading that has had Mister Scruffy display some sort of exceptional intelligence, but I've certainly not seen any evidence in this one that he's at all more intelligent than a house cat should be, and lacking that it would be utterly preposterous to require evidence that he isn't particularly intelligent.

He is affected by (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) The Oracle's magic, contrary to donkey/ass (a mindless animal) in the group. Also, his (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) against (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html) the enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) is not something normal for a house cat...
Chameleon
2011-07-06, 12:30 PM
Mr. Scruffy's moral alignment is "True Kitty".
Zevox
2011-07-06, 02:40 PM
He is affected by (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html) The Oracle's magic, contrary to donkey/ass (a mindless animal) in the group.
Seems like a big stretch to me to claim that as evidence of particular intelligence on Mister Scruffy's part. Most likely Rich just ignored the Donkey because it was just a means of transportation, a background animal with no relevance to anything. (Also, nitpick: the donkey isn't mindless, it just has animal-level intelligence.)


Also, his (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0520.html) attacks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0521.html) against (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html) the enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0780.html) is not something normal for a house cat...
Perfectly normal for a Ranger's animal companion though - or any adventurer's loyal pet in general, for that matter.

Zevox
Magesmiley
2011-07-06, 02:42 PM
Well, probably true neutral. One could probably make a good argument that he's Belkar's animal companion at this point though (I don't even want to think about the sorts of 'tricks' that he's been taught).
Stormwolf
2011-07-06, 04:25 PM
If Shojo ever took Mr. Scruffy to get snipped at the vet then he'll be Chaotic Neutered :smallamused:
Hiro Protagonest
2011-07-06, 04:27 PM
If Shojo ever took Mr. Scruffy to get snipped at the vet then he'll be Chaotic Neutered :smallamused:

True Neutered. Because otherwise it would be Fake Neutered. :smalltongue:
Ego
2011-07-07, 05:51 AM
I think being a cat makes him true evil...

Cat owners will understand...
hamishspence
2011-07-07, 06:01 AM
"Evil" and "animal" generally don't go together- animal companions of evil or good druids/rangers are still always neutral.

Though Heroes of Horror does suggest there can be exceptions to this.
Asthanius
2011-07-11, 09:11 AM
Chaotic Awesome.
drebb
2011-07-31, 04:51 AM
I think Mr. Scruffy IS Draketooth.

Putting my money on this.

Reasons:
Fights with two scimitars? (claws?)
Epic enough illusion spells to pretend he's a cat? Even around clerics with true seeing?
Wanted to keep an eye on Shojo since he doesn't exactly trust the paladins so much?
Zerg Cookie
2011-07-31, 05:16 AM
I think Mr. Scruffy IS Draketooth.

Putting my money on this.

Reasons:
Fights with two scimitars? (claws?)
Epic enough illusion spells to pretend he's a cat? Even around clerics with true seeing?
Wanted to keep an eye on Shojo since he doesn't exactly trust the paladins so much?

And leave his own gate? I find that unlikely

Also, from a storytelling point of view, that would an asspull.
Rich doesn't do asspulls
VanBuren
2011-07-31, 01:52 PM
Mr. Scruffy is a good influence on Belkar. Belkar is a bad influence on Mr. Scruffy. It still averages somewhere south of neutral.

Belkar is Chaotic Evil with a hint of Neutral but still solidly CE.

Mr. Scruffy is Chaotic Neutral with slowly increasing hints of Evil.
Burner28
2011-07-31, 03:46 PM
True Neutral. Scruffy is an animal!
B.I.T.T.
2011-07-31, 04:00 PM
As much as I believe that "cat" should be an alignment in and of itself, Scruff is neutral.
Red XIV
2011-07-31, 07:50 PM
I would be inclined to place Mr. Scruffy's intelligence score at somewhere higher than 2. I'll refrain from making a joke about placing it somewhere higher than Belkar's, though. Whoops, too late. :smalltongue: But then, I'd be inclined to give cats in general a higher INT than 2.
VanBuren
2011-08-01, 01:46 AM
True Neutral. Scruffy is an animal!

Correction: Scruffy is a cat. Which makes the 3x3 grid wholly inadequate. We might as well try and place Nyarlathotep on the axis.
Arcran
2011-08-01, 02:06 AM
I would put Mr. Scruffy at Chaotic Evil because everybody knows cats are evil monsters seeking world domination. Belkar is just a tool for greater power, he just doesn't know it yet.
Ricky S
2011-08-01, 06:18 AM
How can he be evil when he is so cute!
Kyronea
2011-08-01, 06:33 AM
How can he be evil when he is so cute!

But...CUTE IS EVIL!

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CuteIsEvil
Yuki Akuma
2011-08-01, 06:53 AM
He is an Animal Companion.

An Animal Companion is unable to have an Intelligence score above 2, because an Animal is unable to have an Intelligence score above 2 and remain an animal. (Temporary enhancements notwithstanding.)

He is not a normal cat. He is the Animal Companion of a high-level Ranger. Of course he can fight well - he has something like six bonus hit dice by now.
Raimun
2011-08-01, 08:37 AM
I find it very hard to believe that the legal advisor of the (late) lord of Azure city and the commander of the sapphire guard would have an Intelligence of 1 or 2.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

I think mr. Scruffy's answer to Shojo's legal inquiry was clearly both professional and nuanced and as such, we can safely assume he has an Intelligence of at least 14, if not higher.
MoonCat
2011-08-01, 01:18 PM
He was able to sense that scrying thing Z did, on another thread it was brought up that one would have to have a much higher INT than 2 for that.
Klear
2011-08-01, 01:23 PM
I would put Mr. Scruffy at Chaotic Evil because everybody knows cats are evil monsters seeking world domination. Belkar is just a tool for greater power, he just doesn't know it yet.

If cats wanted to take over the world, they'd have already done it. It's much better for them if there are humans around who feed them and clean their ****.
martianmister
2011-08-01, 04:20 PM
He's Lawful Evil, because of:

1. He is raised in a very lawful atmosphere.

2. He is belongs to Belkar.

3. He's a cat...

See? That's really easy to give him the alignment you want him to be...
OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-08-07, 09:35 PM
Mr Scruffy is a cat, this means he is above such petty things as alignment :smallbiggrin:
MoonCat
2011-08-07, 09:39 PM
Mr Scruffy is a cat, this means he is above such petty things as alignment :smallbiggrin:

Tarquin is a cat? :smallamused:
Mutant Sheep
2011-08-07, 09:42 PM
Tarquin is a cat? :smallamused:

He's gotta have a level in Aristrocat if hes busy being the diplomatic ruler of doom that he is.:smalltongue:
OrzhvoPatriarch
2011-08-07, 09:47 PM
Tarquin is a cat? :smallamused:

Oh my Gods, Tarquin is Mr. Scruffy? Think about it, have you ever seen them in the same room?

...the same balcony maybe, but not the same room.
MoonCat
2011-08-07, 09:55 PM
Tarquin... as Mr. Scruffy? Quick call up WMG!

Is it possible to derail your own thread? Hmm...
137beth
2011-08-08, 08:01 PM
From the SRD:

Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).

I'm not sure what the argument is about:smallsigh:
Mutant Sheep
2011-08-08, 08:03 PM
From the SRD:


I'm not sure what the argument is about:smallsigh:

Mr. Scruffy being an animal companion, since they get stat boosts.
TheMac04
2011-08-08, 08:45 PM
If cats wanted to take over the world, they'd have already done it. It's much better for them if there are humans around who feed them and clean their ****.

Don't you see? They already HAVE!
Burner28
2011-08-08, 08:46 PM
Sure they have...Sure they have:smallamused:
137beth
2011-08-08, 08:58 PM
Mr. Scruffy being an animal companion, since they get stat boosts.

Their stat boosts are only in str/dex.
Mutant Sheep
2011-08-08, 09:05 PM
Their stat boosts are only in str/dex.

Never said they weren't.:smallbiggrin: We need to debate about SOMETHING though, alignment of a stick-cat is as good as anything.
Veya
2011-08-08, 09:09 PM
From the SRD:


I'm not sure what the argument is about:smallsigh:
Wait! If anything with a INT score of 3 or higher isn't an animal, what humans are? Homo Sapiens was in "Animalia" last time I checked...

On topic, cats are little bastards who care only for thenselfs and will kill as much as possible, clearly Chaotic Evil
lio45
2011-08-08, 10:29 PM
Perfectly normal for a Ranger's animal companion though - or any adventurer's loyal pet in general, for that matter.

Zevox

Aha! You just admitted Mr. Scruffy was loyal.

I would say that's definitely the most Lawful cat ever, if you looked at the way he behaves towards his master (Belkar, now).

I'd love my cat to be even 1/10th as Lawful as Mr. Scruffy...

But yeah, the rules say True Neutral.
137beth
2011-08-09, 10:22 AM
Wait! If anything with a INT score of 3 or higher isn't an animal, what humans are? Homo Sapiens was in "Animalia" last time I checked...

On topic, cats are little bastards who care only for thenselfs and will kill as much as possible, clearly Chaotic Evil

Yea, that's in real life. But in the D&D world, humans are humanoids...probably in the same way that most plants are considered objects, not creatures:smallfrown:
MoonCat
2011-08-09, 12:40 PM
Aha! You just admitted Mr. Scruffy was loyal.

I would say that's definitely the most Lawful cat ever, if you looked at the way he behaves towards his master (Belkar, now).

I'd love my cat to be even 1/10th as Lawful as Mr. Scruffy...

But yeah, the rules say True Neutral.

What does loyalty have to do with being Lawful?
Objection
2011-08-09, 01:17 PM
What does loyalty have to do with being Lawful?

From what I've read on alignments, loyalty is often a characteristic of lawful creatures and not of chaotic ones.
Zevox
2011-08-09, 03:13 PM
From what I've read on alignments, loyalty is often a characteristic of lawful creatures and not of chaotic ones.
Yeah, believe it or not, no one trait is exclusive to any particular alignment category. (Also, animals are True Neutral, not chaotic.)

Zevox
hamishspence
2011-08-10, 02:59 AM
From what I've read on alignments, loyalty is often a characteristic of lawful creatures and not of chaotic ones.

True- but it's not hard to imagine a barbarian warlord, or an elf, inspiring loyalty.
Objection
2011-08-10, 08:15 AM
Hence 'often' as opposed to 'always'.
137beth
2011-08-10, 12:48 PM
Either way, it STILL doesn't matter because animals are ALWAYS true neutral:smallsigh:
Kish
2011-08-10, 04:04 PM
Tarquin is a cat? :smallamused:
Tarquin just thinks he's a cat.
lio45
2011-08-10, 11:54 PM
What does loyalty have to do with being Lawful?

Out of curiosity, how would you define "Lawful" and "Chaotic"?
MoonCat
2011-08-10, 11:57 PM
Out of curiosity, how would you define "Lawful" and "Chaotic"?

Your treatment of laws and behavior towards figures of authority?
lio45
2011-08-11, 11:30 AM
Your treatment of laws and behavior towards figures of authority?

Someone who's a reliable ally for years, vs someone who wakes up one morning and decides he's no longer your ally for no apparent reason, isn't something on the Law-Chaos axis to you?
Kish
2011-08-11, 02:32 PM
Your treatment of laws and behavior towards figures of authority?
I'd suggest consulting a Player's Handbook section on alignments, instead of assuming the Lawful/Chaotic contrast amounts to "obvious meaning of Lawful/something which has nothing to do with chaos but is the opposite of lawful."
Objection
2011-08-12, 10:54 AM
Your treatment of laws and behavior towards figures of authority?

This guy (http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html) seems to think there's more to it than that, and the vast majority of that stuff has been documented elsewhere.
lio45
2011-08-12, 12:47 PM
I'd suggest consulting a Player's Handbook section on alignments, instead of assuming the Lawful/Chaotic contrast amounts to "obvious meaning of Lawful/something which has nothing to do with chaos but is the opposite of lawful."

I hadn't dwelled on it at first, but now it actually dawned on me why exactly her statement struck me as so inane... it's in fact because of my own bias as a non-native speaker of English.

Lawful actually MEANS loyal. Unlike many native Anglos, I can't help being totally aware of that fact, since the current English word "loyal" was cribbed directly from my native language, and it contains the word "law" staring at you right in the face.

Besides, our D&D handbooks were in English, but I just looked it up: as expected, in my language, the official D&D alignments are Good-Neutral-Evil and Loyal-Neutral-Chaotic.

So yes, to me, MoonCat had basically asked the exact following: "What does loyalty have to do with being Loyal?"

(or, alternatively, "What does lawfulness have to do with being Lawful?")


No wonder it was a "facepalm" moment for me at first... :P
VanBuren
2011-08-13, 04:08 PM
This guy (http://www.easydamus.com/alignment.html) seems to think there's more to it than that, and the vast majority of that stuff has been documented elsewhere.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a

That one too.


Either way, it STILL doesn't matter because animals are ALWAYS true neutral:smallsigh:

Only because the alignment chart is too rudimentary. You can't place a cat's morality on a 3x3 grid. Their morality is beyond us.